Re: t-and-f: Borzov & performance enhancers.
Of course I was going to respond, you thought I would not? While I always enjoy the flow of information, and the adding to my reading list, your suggested contributions would add very little to my pursuits. The very knowledge you wish me to acquire, is the very same information I will always attempt to dispel. Numbers will be numbers, left to the interpretation of the person reading, collecting, and defining them. In other words, a study can be taken many ways depending upon your point of view. You get no props for your typical response, and short sightedness. If the US is such a pox, and the hot bed of steroid use (the origin, as you would have us believe), then why should we waste our efforts losing? Why allow the rest of the world to prosper in EPO? Allow HGH to run unchecked? Why not just use our superior technology to avoid detection, and put all these records away? Of what benefit is it to watch third world countries rule whole sections of track and field? We, are the USA, according to you we hold all the cards and the means to stack the deck. A... You wanna play, let's play! You have numbers, books, and conjecture, and the ever lasting rumor mill. I have the world of track and field, and the experience in it. Come on, be foolish and continue to tell me what is going on in my house. Entertain me some more. I am sure there are 10 other books I can read on the perceived beginnings of steroids in track and field. Dude! Try applied knowledge, instead of what you have read. You will be shocked at the contradictions in life. I am not. A merry Christmas to all, and to all a good night! DGS The G.O.A.T.
t-and-f: Twelve Days of Christmas
I think I first saw this when someone posted it on this list several years
ago. I wish I knew who, so I could give due credit. To those who have seen
it before, I apologize for the duplication. For those who haven't--enjoy.
And to all, a happy, happy holiday season! (If things don't line up quite
right, try changing your screen font to an equal-space one like Courier.)
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On the Twelfth Day of Christmas, my true love gave to me:
Twelve Drummers Drumming
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(_) (_) (_) (_) (_) (_) (_) (_) (_)
/\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\ /\Y/\
[XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX] [XXX]
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Eleven Pipers Piping
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/I\ /I\ /I\ /I\ /I\ /I\ /I\ /I\ /I\ /I\ /I\
(/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\) (/^\)
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~~~
Ten Lords A-Leaping
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Nine Ladies Dancing
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Eight Maids A-Milking
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Seven swans A-Swimming
___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___ ___
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|/ )/ |/ )/ |/ )/ |/ )/
Fwd: RE: t-and-f: re: interesting article on changes in the walks
-- Forwarded Message -- Subject: RE: t-and-f: re: interesting article on changes in the walks Date: Mon, 25 Dec 2000 01:04:59 + From: Michael Casey <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Hi P.N. I understand if you don't want to answer my questions. Happy Christmas and 2001. Mike On Sat, 23 Dec 2000, you wrote: > Problems? The biggest one is probably comprehension, > or lack of it, which I feel is usually feigned. I wrote: > "Lister Ed Grant has a brilliant idea that he is too > modest to announce himself." So I did it for him. That > did not prolong anything. > > You asked earlier for details of the IAAF book and > the author of the paper on walking which said that > it is humanly impossible to walk at the record > speeds of that era. Answers: > > "Athletes in Action" > The official IAAF book on track and field techniques > Published by Pelham > Price $72.50 (NZ) in November 1985 > Julian Hopkins, Great Britain > > It has taken me hours of my time to track down these > details because the coach I lent it to lent it to an > athlete who lent it . . . etc etc. So you might repay > my work by getting hold of the book and reading it. > > I now have to catch up on a lot of important work > sidelined for what I suspect was intended to do just > that. So I'd be grateful if you would go away. > > - > At 23:29 00.12.21, you wrote: > >P.N. , > >Although some of your insights have merit I have to take issue with this > >post. You say, "no-one wants to prolong this go-nowhere argument" and then > >you proceed to prolong it. I for one think it's worthwhile to air these > >issues because in a number of countries, peoples (including some athletes) > >understanding of the walks is very poor. They rely on the media to inform > >them and in a lot of instances the media is itself not well informed. > > > >I do not understand your assertion that walkers be allowed to "slug it out > >among themselves". As far as I know they have nothing to "slug out among > >them selves". Any problem or perceived problem seems to be with the media, > >especially TV who are insisting on electronic judging, and some other > >athletes who for whatever reason do not like the event. I am not aware of > >any major difference of opinion within walking about the judging ( or any > >other issue). There is a dialog going on around the electronic judging issue > >but my understanding is that this is because of the insistence of television > >and photographers of misrepresenting the rules. The rules state that the > >standard of judgement used should be that of the human eye. Walkers are > >happy with these rules, and there is very seldom any major disagreement from > >the walkers with the judges decisions. Many other sports are quite happy to > >leave judgements to the referees, for example,soccers which is one of the > >largest sports in the world does not use technology for its judgement of > >things which are really central to it. The off side rule, goals, out of > >bounds etc are all judged by eye. Remember Maradonna's handball against > >England in the World Cup? > > > >Even more difficult is the whole area of intentional fouls, there is no > >technology that can measure that one, does that mean that soccer should be > >stopped?? The facts are that judgement calls are made in many sports and > >often shown to be technically incorrect after the fact by technology. > > > >In most sports the referee's decision is final, even when video evidence > >after the fact is shown it to be incorrect. Walking is a minority sport with > >very little funding and the electronic judging solution is a very very > >expensive one. If the vast majority of walkers are happy with and accept the > >current situation with regard to judging why should it be changed to suit > >the media. If electronic judging was implemented, coverage of the event > >would not increase. > > > >We constantly get people saying things like "the vast majority of athletes > >want the walks to be dropped". I have yet to see a statement like that > >backed up with any kind of evidence. My experience is that very few athletes > >want the walks to be dropped. > > > >Finally a few questions: > > > >You say: > > > >On the other hand they might j u u u u st > >realise that their only hope of salvation is to reform > >themselves and live by the standards of the rest of us. > >Then they could be welcomed back into civilised society > >and we could all live on in peace and progress. Either > >way, problem solved. > > > >1. Reform themselves from what? > >2. What standards are you talking about? > >3. Peace and progress??? Aren't walkers one of the most peaceful athletes > >around?? Can you cite any situation where walkers aren't at peace? > >4. What problem?? > > > >Regards > >Mike > > > >-Original Message- > >From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of P. N. Heidenstrom > >Sent: 20 December 2000 12:21 > >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > >S
RE: t-and-f: How good was a 10.07 100m in 1972.
I believe he will be the first ever regular sub10.00 athletes > of non-african ancestry. > > regards > Steve Bennett > http://www.oztrack.com > > Some of us purists still believe we're ALL of African ancestry. malmo
RE: t-and-f: How good was a 10.07 100m in 1972.
10.07 in 1972 with Highly Developed Training methods is pretty ordinary when you compare this to the fact that Matt Shirvington of Australia at age 20 ran 10.03 in the final of the Commonwealth Games in Kuala Lumpur into a slight headwind (-0.4). Matt at the time was still much weaker in the Gym than the likes of Greene, Boldon etc. I think Jesse Owens effort in Berlin was much better - what could he have run with the opportunities of the 90s. Ps . Shirvington I believe will run sub10.00 as long as he can avoid career threatening injury. He proved in 2000 he has improved his latter phase of the race and simply needs more experience at putting the whole race together. I believe he will be the first ever regular sub10.00 athletes of non-african ancestry. regards Steve Bennett http://www.oztrack.com
Re: t-and-f: How good was a 10.07 100m in 1972.
- Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >so what we have surmised is that the US is blamed for everything, no matter >what the reasons. Foreign athletes and scientist come to the States for l>ife, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and the countries they leave >blame U.S. >And they say we have propaganda... No-one's blaming anyone (except the East G's who get blamed for everything :-), just setting the record straight. Is that a problem? >BUT, you all may be correct. The origin of steroids may be in the US. But >the origin of steroids is medical. Before the advent of banned list, healing >involved steroids. So now the question is who decided to experiment in the >performance realm of things? On powerlifting boards I visit now and then the consensus is that experimentation with performance enhancing substances among athletes took place more or less independently on both sides of the Iron Curtain. Reports of what the Other Side was up to fueled experimentation with new substances. Information did trickle now and then both ways. But the 50s, 60s and 70s were during the Cold War, don't forget. cheers, Elliott
t-and-f: Borzov & performance enhancers.
<> Dear listers: I enjoy this list on occasion, particularly some of the posts on Borzov and the German program. However, I find a lot of GARBAGE like the above to be utterly useless. The first half of the message FAR undershot the rhetorical target. The second is better spent on a search engine. The entry "charles yesalis" on google.com offers the book "Anabolic Steroids in Sport and Exercise" edited by Dr. Yesalis at the website www.planetkc.com/exrx/Store/HK/AnabolicSteroidsSportExer.html. Perhaps you can order it from amazon.com. I also recommend "Drugs, Sports and Politics" by Robert Voy. Yes that Robert Voy. Both these books have sections devoted to the history of steroids. Mr. Smith, perhaps you could read one or both of these books (or even more) and offer a summary of their findings, as well as your own analysis of their scholarship. Now that would be a terrific present to the list, instead of the aforementioned characteristic contribution. Mr. Akerlind, you get mad props (American colloquialism) for your posts. Mr. Fanelli, would you care to give him "performance/post of the week"? Arr! Dale
Re: t-and-f: How good was a 10.07 100m in 1972.
So what we have surmised is that the US is blamed for everything, no matter what the reasons. Foreign athletes and scientist come to the States for life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, and the countries they leave blame U.S. And they say we have propaganda... BUT, you all may be correct. The origin of steroids may be in the US. But the origin of steroids is medical. Before the advent of banned list, healing involved steroids. So now the question is who decided to experiment in the performance realm of things? Darrell The G.O.A.T.
t-and-f: The ugly Australian
Garry Hill wrote: Isn't that [marooning all the crims on a desert island and letting them slug it out . . .] how we got Australia? I thought you as a Kiwi would realize that! gh -- Yeah, we used to point that out. But not now that all the Ocker icons are really Kiwi property - Phar Lap, long drops, pavlovas, the Melbourne Cup, Taurima . . . . Happy Christmas all.
t-and-f: Our kind of posts
Wasn't it a BBC announcer who commented at the presentation of trophies after an Oxford-Cambridge boat race, "Now isn't that sweet. The wife of the Cambridge captain is kissing the cox of the Oxford crew." previously on this show: Date: Thu, 21 Dec 2000 09:40:41 + From: Randall Northam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Subject: Re: t-and-f: my kind of posts on 21/12/00 3:59, [EMAIL PROTECTED] at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: > There goes Juantorena down the back straight, opening his legs and > showing his class" > (David Coleman at The Montreal Olympics) > They are right up there with the classic BBC commentary from an > England -West Indies cricket match . . . > > "The batsman's Holding, the bowlers Willey" . . . First one - Not so, that was the late Ron Pickering. I can't remember which BBC man said: "There goes Hoyte-Smith with Koch inside her." (you have to say it out loud) Second - there is a much better one from the late John Arlott. Tufty Mann of South Africa boaling to George Mann of England and giving him a hard time. Arlott said: "Yet another example of Mann's inhumanity to Mann." Randall Northam
Re: t-and-f: How good was a 10.07 100m in 1972.
From: Kurt Bray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Mats asked us to remember: > > >Remeber that the USSR and the GDR imported their doping science > > > Hardly. The US is certainly not innocent in furthering doping science, but > a significant majority of the synthetic steroid compounds used in doping > were invented by Germans. Germany has long been a hotbed of the science of > organic chemistry, and steroid chemistry during the 40s, 50s, and 60s, when > most of the steroid dope was developed, is no exception. Scanning the names > of the scientists and the institutions on the patents and primary > publications of the banned steroids reveals a decidedly teutonic flavor. There was a massive outflux of German scientists just before and after world war II to the US. Some, like Einstein, were escaping Nazi persecution. Others, like Werner von Braun who later became the chief engineer of NASA's Apollo missions , were snapped up by the US during the division of Germany between the US and former USSR. That may explain the teutonic flavour of many publications in the 40s and 50s. In that period, German science (and European science in general) was figuratively and literally in ruins: most European countries that had been under Nazi occupation lost an entire generation of scientists to immigration. It's interesting to look at the list of Nobel Prize winners (http://www.almaz.com/nobel/ is a good place to start): the pre-war list is almost totally dominated by European names, with only a sporadic American here and there, while the situation is completely reversed post-war (especially if you include winners who are non-American by nationality but conducted their research in the US). No doubt the East Germans conducted their own steroid experiments in the late 60s/70s, in a probably not completely ethical manner, but I would be surprised if they published their results openly. cheers, Elliott
t-and-f: Los Gatos, 19 August
Liberian Olympian sprinter Grace Dinkins claims a 100m time of 11.53 sec at Los Gatos, 19 August. Can someone please confirm that mark? Thank you. Winfried Kramer Kohlrodweg 12 66539 Neunkirchen/Germany Association of Track & Field Statisticians Editor of NATIONAL ATHLETICS RECORDS
