RE: t-and-f: featured athletes at Mt SAC, KU Relays
The problem is that we don't (except Regina Jacobs) we don't have anyone who is elite to bring in. maybe suzy hamilton but she hasn't proven she can make a final. When we have someone who can medal at 800m or above then we can start caaling them elite. --Kebba This message shows how out of touch you are. Weldon Johnson won the 10 over Keith Kelly. Kelly won the NCAA XC Champs. Would you say Keith is an elite runner? The USATF announcement spouted a bunch of names that were DECIDEDLY NOT WORLD-CLASS, especially in the 400, 800 and field events. Yet left out mention of Olympic Finalists in the Distance races. In fact it left out mention of the distance races ALTOGETHER. I checked results yesterday, and I think I remember Abdi Abdirahman in the 5k. He is American, and he was an Olympian. Is the elite moniker only reserved for potential Olympic medalists? That leaves out A LOT of people. And Suzy Favor-Hamilton has made the finals before ... you just weren't't paying any attention to the event. -Brian There was no excuse (that I could see) for the blatant bias in that event promotion. Your excuse does hold water either.
RE: t-and-f: featured athletes at Mt SAC, KU Relays
From: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] Reply-To: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: Listproc: UORE_TF [EMAIL PROTECTED] This message shows how out of touch you are. Weldon Johnson won the 10 over Keith Kelly. Kelly won the NCAA XC Champs. Would you say Keith is an elite runner? The USATF announcement spouted a bunch of names that were DECIDEDLY NOT WORLD-CLASS, especially in the 400, 800 and field events. Yet left out mention of Olympic Finalists in the Distance races. In fact it left out mention of the distance races ALTOGETHER. I checked results yesterday, and I think I remember Abdi Abdirahman in the 5k. He is American, and he was an Olympian. Is the elite moniker only reserved for potential Olympic medalists? That leaves out A LOT of people. And Suzy Favor-Hamilton has made the finals before ... you just weren't't paying any attention to the event. -Brian There was no excuse (that I could see) for the blatant bias in that event promotion. Your excuse does hold water either. In the sprints and hurdles we in the US don't get excited about someone unless they have a chance to medal at a major meet. In the distance races people get excited if a US athlete makes a final. Jacobs has upped the bar and no one (in the US) has stepped up to meet her. She stomps Suzy almost every time they meet. In the sprints and hurdles if we don't medal it's put out there as if those athletes let the whole nation down. As if it was their birtright to medal in those events as WC/OG. Mitchell was made to feel embarrassed for getting bronze in 92. Burrell was supposed to be ashamed at his 5th in 92 as well. When Christie won in 92 and 93, then Bailey in 95/96 people lost their minds. So much so, that they tried to bill MJ as the world's fastest human till Greene came around. When Kennedy, Suzy, Holman or whoever make a final it's a big deal. We have no chance of medalling in those events right now because we get excited about Juniors (U20) running in the 3:42, 13:30-13:40 range when the real-deal Jrs are running 3:35/13:20 and faster on the circuit. When our expecations of our JRs are to run sub 13:20 then maybe we'll expect our seniors to run 12:50. Think of it like this -- no one get excited when a collegiate female hurdler runs 13.20 or a guy runs 10.20. Let's have high standards across the board. --Kebba _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: London Marathon...Kenyan Dominance?
Scratch that KK comment before. I was looking at the 2000 results with his name in it, not the 2001...oops. Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
Obviously Alan didn't read my article or my book, for he misrepresents both. I wrote about the athletic hotspots that churn out great marathoners. For those unfamiliar with genetics, the highland regions of North Africa and the Rift Valley of East Africa share an evolutionary history. This is not about which country does better in marathoning. Kenyans who trace their history from the lowland regions are no more likely to dominate in marathoning than coastal North Africans or whites. On the other hand, certain sub-populations WILL dominate all out of proportion to their overall numbers--East and North Africans from highland regions, some southern Mediterranean runners in which there has been a good deal of gene flow with African (Portugal, Spain) and East Asians, who are not particularly fast or great jumpers on average but turn out great marathoners and ultra-marathoners (The Tarahumara in Mexico and Ecuadorians, for example, are of East Asian ancestry). As for London: MEN: East/North Africans took 4 of 5 and athletic hotspot athletes took all five; WHITES: ZERO WOMEN: East Africans took 3 of five. As for Rotterdam: MEN: A Kenyan won in 2:06:50, Kenyans took 4 of 5 and a North African immigrant took fourth WOMEN: Kenyan won Oh yes, Alan, the rest of the world is catching up, particularly those Brits and Americans who try to emulate the Kenyans. The fact is that a tiny percentage of the world's population wins almost all the major marathons and dominates the sport. More than 78 percent of recent top marathons are won by hotspot athletes. Yes, that's catching up. Next weekend I'll have a major article coming out on Why an American, Brit or Aussie (Black or White) May Never Win another major marathon It's based on the article below: Cheers, -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com *** Why a Brit, Aussie or an American (Black or White) May Never Win Another Major Marathon By Jon Entine What has befallen the great British and American marathon traditions? The most notable British entry at this year¹s London Marathon is recently knighted Sir Stephen Redgrave, five time Olympic rowing gold medallist, who will also be the official starter. But suck gimmickry cannot conceal the reality that top countrymen such as Jon Brown and Mark Steinle are long shots at best in a field studded with marathoners from East and North Africa, southern Europe, and East Asia. Notably absent among the elite: Northern American and European whites and blacks. The Boston Marathon results were not better. Rod De Haven finished sixth, the best showing in years. But the real story was the relative flop of American Josh Cox, who made a name for himself with grueling 180 mile training weeks in an attempt to improve match Kenyan dominance, finished almost seven minutes behind the winner. So much for former Boston winner Bill Rodger¹s oft-stated belief that Americans can match the Kenyans and other high-altitude athletes with hard work. What¹s going on. Have Brits, and most of Europe and America, gone soft, victims of affluence and regularly bested by hard nosed athletes from emerging countries? It¹s a fascinating and little explored question. Here¹s the startling headline: Don¹t expect marathoners from Britain, northern Europe or North America, white or black, to ever again reclaim the mantle as world¹s best. And cultural factors have little do with this changing phenomenon. Running is the world¹s most competitive sport, requiring relatively little coaching and equipment. To understand the amazing transformation in world sport, it¹s helpful to focus on what¹s going on in Kenya. In that small East African country, coaches comb the countryside for the rising generation of stars, who are showered with special training and government perks. Adoring sports fans crowd the National Stadium in Nairobi to celebrate what amounts to their national religion. After more than 60 victories by Kenyans in world-class marathon over the past two years more than from all of the rest of the world combined even casual fans are familiar with this success story. According to conventional wisdom, Kenyans, Ethiopians and other East Africans dominate because they ran to school as children, train torturously at high altitude, and are desperate to escape poverty. It¹s in their culture. This year in London, Tegla Laroupe tries to improve on last year¹s world record run while East Africans Eric Wainaina, Derartu Tulu, Japhet Kosgei and Paul Tergat pace the men¹s field. There's only one problem: The national sport, hero worship, and social channeling speak to Kenya's enduring obsession with not running but soccer. Unfortunately, Kenyans (and other East Africans) are regularly trounced in the Africa Games by West African countries. It¹s just not in their genes. Science does not support the speculation that East Africans dominate because of social factors, the
RE: t-and-f: featured athletes at Mt SAC, KU Relays
We have no chance of medalling in those events right now because we get excited about Juniors (U20) running in the 3:42, 13:30-13:40 range when the real-deal Jrs are running 3:35/13:20 and faster on the circuit. When our expecations of our JRs are to run sub 13:20 then maybe we'll expect our seniors to run 12:50. Do you think that the path to having 12:50-level-seniors starts with leaving out any-and-all mention of the distance races in event promotion for the nation's biggest distance meet? Again, you are out of touch with distance running. It is not a big deal when Bob Kennedy make(s) a final ... He has been so good and so consistent for so many years that IT IS a big deal when he doesn't make a final. Is there any reason that pre-event promotion should make NO MENTION of the distance races and the runners? You seem to be saying that unless Regina Jacobs is in your meet, don't even bother, as she is the only American worthy of the tag elite. Last time I checked, she was a DNC at the Olympics, DNF at the National Indoor Championships, DNC at the WIC, and DNC at the WCCC. This is a world-beater? I'm not so sure you are qualified to judge who is an elite distance runner, nor to judge who is worthy of being included in the promos. What if I told you that only potential-Olympic-medallist long jumpers should ever get any mention? -Brian There was no excuse (that I could see) for the blatant bias in that event promotion. Your excuse does hold water either. In the sprints and hurdles we in the US don't get excited about someone unless they have a chance to medal at a major meet. In the distance races people get excited if a US athlete makes a final. Jacobs has upped the bar and no one (in the US) has stepped up to meet her. She stomps Suzy almost every time they meet. In the sprints and hurdles if we don't medal it's put out there as if those athletes let the whole nation down. As if it was their birtright to medal in those events as WC/OG. Mitchell was made to feel embarrassed for getting bronze in 92. Burrell was supposed to be ashamed at his 5th in 92 as well. When Christie won in 92 and 93, then Bailey in 95/96 people lost their minds. So much so, that they tried to bill MJ as the world's fastest human till Greene came around. When Kennedy, Suzy, Holman or whoever make a final it's a big deal. We have no chance of medalling in those events right now because we get excited about Juniors (U20) running in the 3:42, 13:30-13:40 range when the real-deal Jrs are running 3:35/13:20 and faster on the circuit. When our expecations of our JRs are to run sub 13:20 then maybe we'll expect our seniors to run 12:50. Think of it like this -- no one get excited when a collegiate female hurdler runs 13.20 or a guy runs 10.20. Let's have high standards across the board. --Kebba _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Elite expectations
DGS wrote: An example is Webb. There is a lot of discussion about his successes, and times, but there are also discussions regarding if he is running too much, too fast, too soon. It becomes evident when we start to discuss sprinters or foreign distance runners. Junior sprinters are expected to be world class by the time the finish college, if not sooner, and there is rare talk of over training when we discuss foreign juniors. That is a good point that many people question whether a distance runner is doing "too much too soon", but the question is rarely considered for sprinters. I tend to think that doing too much isas much related to attitude than physiology, but either way, it never seems to be a concern about sprinters. Yet every year we see just as many high school sprint talents who fail to succeed at the next level as we do distance runners. Perhaps some of this IS related to what they did or didn't do in high school, just as it may be with the distance runners. I don't know very much about how the sub 10.5 high school sprinters train. As for world distance juniors, it is my impression that two countries - Ethiopia and Kenya - dominate, with a few north Africans as well. I suspect that the 3:42 and 13:35 junior times that Kebba is telling us aren't good enough would be considered excellent by every non-African country in the world. Not to mention the fact that the Africans themselves will admit that the accuracy of their birth records are not all that great by western standards. I do agree that expectations are not what they should be as a general rule. To some extent, it's a chicken and an egg concept. If you're used tolocal dual and tri-meets won with a 5:00 mile and you watch a local league meet won in 4:45, a 4:25 runner will be a superstar. A 4:10 milerseems like someone from another planet. Add to that the annoyingly popular concept of "everyone's a winner" and you have an expectation/attitude/performance problem that will not be fixed simply by telling today's best high schoolers that they stink. - ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
Jon Entine wrote: Obviously Alan didn't read my article or my book, for he misrepresents both. I wrote about the athletic hotspots that churn out great marathoners. For those unfamiliar with genetics, the highland regions of North Africa and the Rift Valley of East Africa share an evolutionary history. This is not about which country does better in marathoning. Kenyans who trace their history from the lowland regions are no more likely to dominate in marathoning than coastal North Africans or whites. On the other hand, certain sub-populations WILL dominate all out of proportion to their overall numbers--East and North Africans from highland regions, some southern Mediterranean runners in which there has been a good deal of gene flow with African (Portugal, Spain) and East Asians, who are not particularly fast or great jumpers on average but turn out great marathoners and ultra-marathoners (The Tarahumara in Mexico and Ecuadorians, for example, are of East Asian ancestry). Have you noticed how our friend Jon always manages to expand his definition of a hot spot for marathoning to include what ever group happened to win the last major marathon? We didn't hear much about the genetic superiority of East Asians before Boston, just as we didn't hear much about Spaniards and Portuguese before they won majors! -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated... - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
What is interesting is that in both Boston and London an American or Brit was 6th. I do believe Cox would have been top 5 at Boston if it wasn't for the cramp in his side. What does Jon have to say about South African runners? Of course I haven't read your book Jon. I already know what it basically says because you've told us countless times...:) Still doesn't prove that North/East Africans are dominating marathoning. If that was the case then there would never be a Brit, American, Asian, Russian, ect in the top 10 and the world record would be shot into the stratosphere. Americans and Brits once produced a good flow of 2:10 or better marathoners or those capable of a sub 2:10. Running under 2:10 will still win you quite a few international marathons. Add a drop of EPO here and there and we've got a good stream of 2:06's. The 2:10 marathoners of the 80s would most likely run 2:08 or better today simply because that is what it would take to win, so that is how they would train. Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
t-and-f: Marion Jones Headlines Pre Classic 200
23 April 2001 For Immediate Release MARION JONES HEADLINES PREFONTAINE CLASSIC 200 FIELD Eugene, Oregon--Woman Athlete of the Year, winner of five Olympic medals, including the 200 Meters, MARION JONES will race at that distance in the Prefontaine Classic Grand Prix on May 27th at historic Hayward Field. Ranked No. 1 in the world in the 200 for four years in a row by Track Field News magazine, Jones will face a field as formidable as those to be found in many Olympic Finals. No fewer than five of the top 10 women from last year's rankings are scheduled to be in the race, including JONES, SUSANTHIKE JAYASINGHE of Sri Lanka (# 3 World by TFN), BEVERLY MCDONALD of Jamaica (#4 World), INGER MILLER (#8 World), and Nanceen Perry (#10 World) of the U.S. All eyes will be focused on Jones, however, as she attempts to take up where she left off after winning the 100 and 200 at the 2000 Olympic Games, capturing bronze in the long jump, and taking a gold and bronze in the two relays. At Sydney, the margin of victory for the incomparable Ms. Jones in the 200 was nearly half a second (.43). This past Sunday at the Mt. San Antonio College Relays in Walnut, California, Jones ran a quick 35.68 for 300 meters, fourth fastest of all-time, indicating good early-season form. For more information, contact Tom Jordan by e-mail, or by calling 1-541-687-1989. preclassic.com
Re: t-and-f: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
LS As is is far to easy to overstate Kenyan supremacy, it is also very dangerous statistics to think Kenyan dominance is over only because London (2:07/2:23), Hamburg (2:07/2:26) and Boston (2:09/2:23 Ndebera) produced only one Kenyan winner. Rotterdam not only got two Kenyan winners (2:06/2:25), but claimed all three places on the podium plus numbers five (brother of number one) and ten. Plus I think I saw a several other Kenyans winning other races (including marathons) the last few weeks. Also, I am fairly sure that if you count nationalities even in this months marathons, you will find Kenyans did not do that bad at all. And I think the whole picture changes as soon as you take more Africans (namely Moroccon and Morocoon ancestry athletes) into consideration, as I remember Jon Entine did? Regards, Wilmar alan tobin schreef: While SI publishes a story about Kenyan Marathon dominance and Jon Entine tells us Kenyans dominate distance running alltogether, only 2 Kenyans finish in the top 10 at London. The world is starting to catch up to the Kenyans. Anyone notice that the London Marathon site listed Khalid Khannouchi as Morrocan? Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
Next weekend I'll have a major article coming out on Why an American, Brit or Aussie (Black or White) May Never Win another major marathon It's not that I disagree with Jon Entine's conclusions, but my question is so what?. What do we take away from this line of reasoning that will help us run faster or be better fans? Do we lower our expectations? If that's the point, then I must respectfully say I disagree with that 100%. Do we give up -hardly. Should an elite athlete be giving this theory any consideration at all - of course not, how would it help him/her? Will I enjoy watching a race more because I know that the winning Africans have a predisposition for success - no. As a rational person, I know that the national class guys probably have more talent than me. But as an athlete, that fact is totally irrelevent. I train so I can get faster and beat as many people as possible. And I'm always thinking about how I can beat the guy who's a minute ahead of me in a 10K, I'm not focusing on how I've never beaten him before or how he's more talented than me. I plan my race strategy based on the shape I'm in and if there is a 28:00 10K runner in the field, I don't try to run the first mile with him. But that is simply an intellgient use of my knowledge of recent performances by my competitors, not the amount of natural talent they have. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: featured athletes at Mt SAC, KU Relays
Kebba, Let me make sure I have this correct. 1) You are trying to promote a track meet in the U.S. 2) You know that U.S. people get excited about a certain class (those who make the finals in major meets) of distance athletes. 3) There are members of that class of athletes entered in the meet you're promoting. 4) You choose to IGNORE those athletes in your promotion of the meet, because it tends to lower our expectations. With all due respect, if you are trying to promote the meet, you should be paying attention to any aspect of the meet which may put fannies in the seats. It does indeed appear that you are putting your own anti-distance bias ahead of effective meet promotion. And I think you are way, way off base by putting down U.S. juniors who run between 13:30 and 13:40. How many real-deal (real) juniors HAVE run sub 13:20, and how many of them have moved on to run under 12:50? It's almost as if your opinion of our best juniors is So what, they're no Haille Gebrsellasie. Any of our juniors who run 13:30 to 13:40 should be encouraged to move up to the next level; they should not be ignored because you think encouraging them promotes mediocrity. regards, Don Kebba Tolbert wrote: In the sprints and hurdles we in the US don't get excited about someone unless they have a chance to medal at a major meet. In the distance races people get excited if a US athlete makes a final. ... ... We have no chance of medalling in those events right now because we get excited about Juniors (U20) running in the 3:42, 13:30-13:40 range when the real-deal Jrs are running 3:35/13:20 and faster on the circuit. When our expecations of our JRs are to run sub 13:20 then maybe we'll expect our seniors to run 12:50. Think of it like this -- no one get excited when a collegiate female hurdler runs 13.20 or a guy runs 10.20. Let's have high standards across the board. --Kebba
t-and-f: Who was Jeff Laynes high school coach?
Gotcha! __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
On 4/23/01 9:46 AM, alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is interesting is that in both Boston and London an American or Brit was 6th. I do believe Cox would have been top 5 at Boston if it wasn't for the cramp in his side. What does Jon have to say about South African runners? According to gene studies, such as Cavalli-Sforza's The History and Geograpy of Genes, South African blacks (by and large) trace much of their ancestry to East Africa. Of course I haven't read your book Jon. I already know what it basically says because you've told us countless times...:) Still doesn't prove that North/East Africans are dominating marathoning. North and East Africans win approximately 50 percent of the top marathons, all drawn from a population base of less than 3 million or so (the areas that turn out such runners). Poverty probably cuts into the potential of a good percentage of those. If that's not dominance, you've managed to redefine the term. If that was the case then there would never be a Brit, American, Asian, Russian, ect in the top 10 and the world record would be shot into the stratosphere. Alan: You miss the point entirely. This is not genetic determinism. Genes proscribe possibility, they don't confer inevitability. A marathon is too filled with serendipity to exclude anyone from POSSIBLY doing well. Are their tall women in the world? Yes. Are men taller than women? On average, yes -- the bell curve distribution for tallness is both longer towards tallness and fatter -- there are more at each of the longer heights. It's exactly the same in running. The Bell Curve distribution at sprinting is VERY long and VERY thick for athletes of West African ancestry. It's quite long and thick on the endurance end for North and East Africans. The bell curve distribution for whites may be longer at both (more body type variance in general) but not thicker at either end. At least that's what anthropologists believe. Americans and Brits once produced a good flow of 2:10 or better marathoners or those capable of a sub 2:10. Running under 2:10 will still win you quite a few international marathons. Add a drop of EPO here and there and we've got a good stream of 2:06's. The 2:10 marathoners of the 80s would most likely run 2:08 or better today simply because that is what it would take to win, so that is how they would train. Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: TFN Athlete of Year Enters adidas Oregon Track Classic
For Immediate Use 2000 Track and Field Athlete of the Year Enters 2001 adidas Oregon Track Classic Portland - The Track Field News 2000 male athlete of the year Olympic gold medalist Virgilijus Alekna of Lithuania will compete in the discus at this years adidas Oregon Track Classic. Alekna was voted to Athlete of the Year honors by an international panel of 36 track and field experts. He received 20 first place votes to runner-up Michael Johnsons three and third-place finisher Maurice Greenes two. Alekna was the first field event athlete to win the award since 1986. The 6-7, 287 Alekna also had TFNs top performance of the year with his 242-5 throw at the Lithuanian Championships. He threw over 220 feet in 14 meets last year, including a best of 227-4 to win the Sydney Olympic Games gold medal. Aleknas competition in Portland will come from four top 10 throwers, Belarus Vasiliy Kaptyukh, fourth in Sydney, U.S. champion Adam Setliff, fifth in Sydney, Canadian record holder Jason Tunks, sixth in Sydney, and Estonia champion Aleksander Tammert, ninth in Sydney. Also entered are the two best shot/discus throwers in the world, Americans John Godina and Andy Bloom. Godina won the shot put bronze medal in Sydney, the silver in Atlanta, and is a two-time World Champion. He has ranked as high as third in the world in the discus. Bloom ranked second in the world last year in the shot put and placed fourth in Sydney. He ranked fourth in the world in the discus in 1999. Paul Bantaadidas Oregon Track Classic503-620-4052www.oregontrackclassic.com
Re: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
Let's line up Shorter, Rodgers, Virgin, Meyer, Lindsay, Bjorkland, Durden, Wells, Beardsley, et al - most of whom competed at the same time at an elite level - at the starting line in Hopkington and the top ten would take a decidedly American look even today. Throw in whatever pharmeceuticals are currently in vogue and who knows what the possibilities would be. The countries of the British Isles can do the same. The problem is probably less a genetic issue than an interest as a competitive event issue at least in the US and the Celtic states. Steve S.
t-and-f: Oregon/Washington HS Meet of Champions
For Immediate Use Oregon, Washington High School Stars To Square Off in Meet of Champions The Oregon-Washington Meet of Champions, a match-up of the two states best high school track and field athletes, has been added to the adidas Oregon Track Classic weekend of activities. The Meet of Champions will be held on Saturday, June 2 starting at 5 p.m at Mount Hood Community College in Gresham, Ore. The Meet of Champions will feature four athletes from each state in each of 30 events. Athletes will be selected based on their season performances and placings at the Oregon and Washington state high school championship meets. Tickets for the Oregon-Washington Meet of Champions are $5 with children 12 under admitted free when accompanied by a ticket-holding adults. Tickets will be on sale at the stadium on meet day only. Paul Bantaadidas Oregon Track Classic503-620-4052www.oregontrackclassic.com
Re: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
You could go to Eldoret in the Rift Valley, through a net of five miles, and turn up probably ten times the talent of that group. Sorry. On 4/23/01 11:24 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Let's line up Shorter, Rodgers, Virgin, Meyer, Lindsay, Bjorkland, Durden, Wells, Beardsley, et al - most of whom competed at the same time at an elite level - at the starting line in Hopkington and the top ten would take a decidedly American look even today. Throw in whatever pharmeceuticals are currently in vogue and who knows what the possibilities would be. The countries of the British Isles can do the same. The problem is probably less a genetic issue than an interest as a competitive event issue at least in the US and the Celtic states. Steve S. -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
RE: t-and-f: featured athletes at Mt SAC, KU Relays
We have no chance of medalling in those events right now because we get excited about Juniors (U20) running in the 3:42, 13:30-13:40 range when the real-deal Jrs are running 3:35/13:20 and faster on the circuit. When our expecations of our JRs are to run sub 13:20 then maybe we'll expect our seniors to run 12:50. *~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~*~ After re-reading this and thinking how asinine it is, I thought about something else: Over the weekend I watched a broadcast of the WCCC from Belgium. Throughout the entire race I watched two U.S. juniors (with PR's of 14:13 and 13:51-run this weekend at Mt. SAC) run right up at the front with the real-deal Jrs you speak of ... guys like Robert Kipchumba (27:43 10k at SIXTEEN) ... and Duncan Lebo (2nd in WJC 2000 in 10k)... Coming down the finishing straight the EIGHTEEN-year-old American just plain ran away from fourth by 5 seconds. How can this happen when we are getting excited about U20's who can only manage 3:42 and 13:40? You are way off-base with your assessment of the what/why/how of distance running in the States. Your opinions look like an attempt by me to criticize U.S. Hammer Throwers ... I will be willing to give 5-1 odds today (for all-comers) that Dathan Ritzenhein will be a featured athlete at Mt. SAC within 5 years. And he should be, so should a bunch of other distance runners.
RE: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
20 years ago Boston also had an Asian winner (but Seko was from Japan), his winning time was within 10 seconds of Bong-Ju. The 2nd and 3rd place times were very similar to 2001 (Virgin and Rodgers in mid-2:10's) ... the big difference was that in 1981 the top-thirty depth was a LOT better. Mostly white guys in that top-thirty too. Africans dominate the marathon? Sure they do. I just don't want to have to keep hearing about it every two weeks. Jon is right ... they dominate. Steve is right ... there are lots of reasons this is true. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 2:25 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance? Let's line up Shorter, Rodgers, Virgin, Meyer, Lindsay, Bjorkland, Durden, Wells, Beardsley, et al - most of whom competed at the same time at an elite level - at the starting line in Hopkington and the top ten would take a decidedly American look even today. Throw in whatever pharmeceuticals are currently in vogue and who knows what the possibilities would be. The countries of the British Isles can do the same. The problem is probably less a genetic issue than an interest as a competitive event issue at least in the US and the Celtic states. Steve S.
t-and-f: John Capel and positive drug test
FROM THE CHICAGO SUN TIMES (Capel was 7th round draft pick of Chicago Bears): According to an Internet report, teams had red-flagged Capel due to a positive drug test at the Indianapolis scouting combine. A Bears source said the team was aware of the issue but it's something that wouldn't make any difference to us in the seventh round. Capel was unavailable for comment but his agent, Steve Weinberg, said he was unaware of a problem. I haven't had a chance to talk to him about it, Weinberg said. I have no idea whether it's true or not. Marty Post Senior Editor Runner's World Magazine www.runnersworld.com
t-and-f: [Fwd: I don't get it]
Please explain some things to me. When tracing ancestry, how far back do you go? I assumed that if you go back far enough, you and I would have the same root in this giant tree.No? If I line up next to you for a race, do I give a flip about your past beyond your PR? John Jon Entine wrote: On 4/23/01 9:46 AM, alan tobin [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: What is interesting is that in both Boston and London an American or Brit was 6th. I do believe Cox would have been top 5 at Boston if it wasn't for the cramp in his side. What does Jon have to say about South African runners? According to gene studies, such as Cavalli-Sforza's The History and Geograpy of Genes, South African blacks (by and large) trace much of their ancestry to East Africa. Of course I haven't read your book Jon. I already know what it basically says because you've told us countless times...:) Still doesn't prove that North/East Africans are dominating marathoning. North and East Africans win approximately 50 percent of the top marathons, all drawn from a population base of less than 3 million or so (the areas that turn out such runners). Poverty probably cuts into the potential of a good percentage of those. If that's not dominance, you've managed to redefine the term. If that was the case then there would never be a Brit, American, Asian, Russian, ect in the top 10 and the world record would be shot into the stratosphere. Alan: You miss the point entirely. This is not genetic determinism. Genes proscribe possibility, they don't confer inevitability. A marathon is too filled with serendipity to exclude anyone from POSSIBLY doing well. Are their tall women in the world? Yes. Are men taller than women? On average, yes -- the bell curve distribution for tallness is both longer towards tallness and fatter -- there are more at each of the longer heights. It's exactly the same in running. The Bell Curve distribution at sprinting is VERY long and VERY thick for athletes of West African ancestry. It's quite long and thick on the endurance end for North and East Africans. The bell curve distribution for whites may be longer at both (more body type variance in general) but not thicker at either end. At least that's what anthropologists believe. Americans and Brits once produced a good flow of 2:10 or better marathoners or those capable of a sub 2:10. Running under 2:10 will still win you quite a few international marathons. Add a drop of EPO here and there and we've got a good stream of 2:06's. The 2:10 marathoners of the 80s would most likely run 2:08 or better today simply because that is what it would take to win, so that is how they would train. Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
Boston 1981, Winning times were similar, But back in 50th place Matsuo of Japan went 2:18:45. The last sub 2:20 was Gerry Deegan of Ireland in 64th. The last sub 2:20 this year was Mark Coogan in 19th place. But in 1981 I considered myself in bad shape and only participated in the race with a 2:26:46 in 191st place too far back among Americas to count or even score on the Greater Boston team. That time in 2001 would have been about what Danny Reed ran for 35th place overall and 7th American. Those are the numbers. That difference IS cultural. The interesting question is why. Tom Derderian - Original Message - From: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 2:41 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance? 20 years ago Boston also had an Asian winner (but Seko was from Japan), his winning time was within 10 seconds of Bong-Ju. The 2nd and 3rd place times were very similar to 2001 (Virgin and Rodgers in mid-2:10's) ... the big difference was that in 1981 the top-thirty depth was a LOT better. Mostly white guys in that top-thirty too. Africans dominate the marathon? Sure they do. I just don't want to have to keep hearing about it every two weeks. Jon is right ... they dominate. Steve is right ... there are lots of reasons this is true. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 2:25 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance? Let's line up Shorter, Rodgers, Virgin, Meyer, Lindsay, Bjorkland, Durden, Wells, Beardsley, et al - most of whom competed at the same time at an elite level - at the starting line in Hopkington and the top ten would take a decidedly American look even today. Throw in whatever pharmeceuticals are currently in vogue and who knows what the possibilities would be. The countries of the British Isles can do the same. The problem is probably less a genetic issue than an interest as a competitive event issue at least in the US and the Celtic states. Steve S.
Re: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
Those are the numbers. That difference IS cultural. The interesting question is why. Tom Derderian Could be because our culture has changed a lot in the past 50 years. The computer and television has produced lazy people. 50 years ago a lot of people in America still lived a relatively rural life. Children played outside more, they ran around more, 50 years ago. Also, today children get the majority of their vegetables as McDonalds french fries. Fast food+sitting and watching TV or playing games = fat and lazy children = slow runners. Also, you have to consider the fact that with most Africans running is a way to bring home a huge cash cow to feed their families for generations. The average American can go run a race, do poorly or average and still come home to a pretty good life. The average African can go run a race, do poorly or average and come home to a relatively poor life. Give the Africans the fast food and fast life of America and see what happens. Build up the culture, make it more American, wait 10 years, then see how fast they run. This can be seen on a lesser scale by the Africans competing in American colleges. Granted the talent level most likely isn't top tier but there have been a lot of African collegians in the US to disappear into the void. Could be because of American living? Fast food? TV? Alan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
Wayne asked: Have you noticed how our friend Jon always manages to expand his definition of a hot spot for marathoning to include what ever group happened to win the last major marathon? We didn't hear much about the genetic superiority of East Asians before Boston, just as we didn't hear much about Spaniards and Portuguese before they won majors! Yes, I've noticed that. Apparently winning a major distance race is a sure way to get to be a sort of honorary East African. We've already seen this sort of thing with certain isolated native American tribes getting made honorary Asians to link their running prowess with that of the Japanese and Koreans, despite the fact that Asians and native Americans have had separate cultural and biological evolutions ongoing for perhaps more than 10,000 years. And we have another convenient linkage being declared with the lumping of the great East African runners with the great North African runners - this despite the fact that most of the North Africans are Arabs - a white semitic people of a lineage significantly different from the Kenyans. My thought is that, since the human species originated in east Africa, we are all East Africans if you care to look back far enough. Therefore when anyone wins a distance race, no matter where they are recently from, we can just declare it yet another victory for the theory of East African superiority. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
RE: t-and-f: Who was Jeff Laynes high school coach?
Doug Owyang and Dave Ponas --Original Message-- From: Michael Bartolina [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: April 23, 2001 6:03:55 PM GMT Subject: t-and-f: Who was Jeff Laynes high school coach? Gotcha! __ Do You Yahoo!? Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices http://auctions.yahoo.com/
RE: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance?
If you have ever been to Kenya, you might have seen first-hand that the Arabs hate the blacks. Along the ocean coast especially, many people who can trace their ancestry to an Arab country, feel quite superior racially to the black Kenyans ... whether the Arab had been there for 50 minutes or 50 years. It was the first time I ever witnessed how much racism there could be between people who were seemingly the same race. This has nothing to do with the marathon discussion though. SIDE NOTE: I wonder if the North-African (mostly Arab) runners (from Algeria, Morocco, Tunisia) have these deep-seated feelings of racial superiority towards the (largely black) Kenyans and Ethiopians? -Brian -Original Message- From: Kurt Bray [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 4:31 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: Re: London Marathon...Kenyan Marathon Dominance? Wayne asked: Have you noticed how our friend Jon always manages to expand his definition of a hot spot for marathoning to include what ever group happened to win the last major marathon? We didn't hear much about the genetic superiority of East Asians before Boston, just as we didn't hear much about Spaniards and Portuguese before they won majors! Yes, I've noticed that. Apparently winning a major distance race is a sure way to get to be a sort of honorary East African. We've already seen this sort of thing with certain isolated native American tribes getting made honorary Asians to link their running prowess with that of the Japanese and Koreans, despite the fact that Asians and native Americans have had separate cultural and biological evolutions ongoing for perhaps more than 10,000 years. And we have another convenient linkage being declared with the lumping of the great East African runners with the great North African runners - this despite the fact that most of the North Africans are Arabs - a white semitic people of a lineage significantly different from the Kenyans. My thought is that, since the human species originated in east Africa, we are all East Africans if you care to look back far enough. Therefore when anyone wins a distance race, no matter where they are recently from, we can just declare it yet another victory for the theory of East African superiority. Kurt Bray _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
t-and-f: Dedication of Marshfield HS Track
MEDIA ALERT * * * MEDIA ALERT MARSHFIELD High School Track Renovation Ceremony honors two legends of distance running, Bill Bowerman and Steve Prefontaine Former University of Oregon Distance Running Standout and Long-time Nike Executive Rudy Chapa Highlights Nike's Support at Coos Bay Event on Friday Evening What: Marshfield High School will hold a dedication ceremony to officially open the new Nike Grind all-weather running track that will be named in honor of the high school's track legend, Steve Prefontaine. The event will be held on the evening of April 27 during the Annual Coos County Track and Field Meet. Nike, along with the support of several other donors, led the way in bringing the new track to Coos Bay. Looking to strengthen and grow youth participation in track and field, Nike provided funding through the Bowerman Track Renovation Program, which provides matching cash grants to community-based, youth-oriented organizations that seek to refurbish or construct running tracks. Nike established the Bowerman Track Renovation Program in 1999 to honor legendary running coach and Nike co-founder Bill Bowerman and his lifetime contributions to the sport of running. Nike is contributing $1 million to the Bowerman Track Renovation Program for the refurbishment or construction of youth-oriented track and field facilities around the world. Who: Former University of Oregon distance running standout and long-time Nike Executive Rudy Chapa will attend the rededication in honor of Prefontaine [Pre]. Chapa broke Pre's American 3000m record in 1979 while running at the University of Oregon's Hayward Field. Also in attendance: Pre's family, including sister, Linda Prefontaine and parents, Ray and Elfriede Prefontaine. Where: Marshfield High School Coos Bay, Oregon When: Friday, April 27th, 2001 5:00 pm Nike Contact: Megan McCarthy (503) 671-3231 ### preclassic.com
t-and-f: Radcliffe turns to marathon
The Electronic Telegraph Tuesday 24 April 2001 Tom Knight PAULA RADCLIFFE ended all the speculation about her move up the marathon yesterday by announcing she will make her debut over 26.2 miles in next year's London event. Radcliffe, who is Britain's most successful distance runner, has long been advised that the marathon would be her best event, especially after her disappointments over 10,000 metres on the track, where she has so often been out-sprinted for the major medals. Her fortunes changed after she finished fourth in the Sydney Olympics. Since then, she has won the world half-marathon and cross-country titles. She will be 28 by the time London comes around again and while Radcliffe will continue to compete on the track and over the country, she confirmed that her long-term aim is the gold medal in the Olympic marathon in Athens in 2004. In opting for London, however, Radcliffe has chosen potentially the toughest of debuts, but she has also offered organisers the tantalising prospect of their first British winner since Liz McColgan took the title in 1996. McColgan won that race easily and her winning margin of almost three minutes led to accusations that the field had been specially weighted in her favour. Radcliffe is looking for no such favours. She said: Everyone has been asking me about the marathon for a long time and I feel the time is right to move up. I don't want an easy ride. I want to be the best marathon runner around and to do that, you have to go to where the field is strongest. That is in London. David Bedford, the race director, assured her of the best possible competition. He said: Paula will have the best field we can put together. It's important for the race to have a British winner, but not at the expense of a weakened field. Among those expected to line up against Radcliffe in London will be Derartu Tulu, this year's champion who has often been the Briton's nemesis on the track. The Ethiopian out-kicked Radcliffe to capture the world cross-country title in 1997 and, in Sydney, followed her for 24 of the 25 laps of the 10,000 metres before sprinting past her to victory. It was no surprise, therefore, to hear Tulu welcoming Radcliffe's decision. She said: I have missed running against Paula and I will be delighted to see her in the marathon. The best of advice came from Norway's Ingrid Kristiansen, a heroine of Radcliffe's who won four times in London during the 1980s. They met for the first time yesterday when Radcliffe revealed she was in London to watch her father cover the course in 3.5 hours in 1985 - the same year in which Kristiansen clocked her world record of two hours 21 minutes six seconds. Kristiansen said: There is a big difference between 10,000 metres and the marathon. The mental side is so important. Something happens at 30km and you have to know how that feels. Organisers of the London Marathon confirmed yesterday that the race suffered its seventh death in 21 races on Sunday when a man in his early thirties collapsed after crossing the finish line. At the request of his family, his name has not been disclosed. Eamonn Condon WWW.RunnersGoal.com
Re: t-and-f: promo of Mt. SAC
I am mad at Mt SAC too. (or the results program) The Greater Boston Track Club sent athletes to the meet at considerable effort and expense. I find their names in the results but no affiliation. Only unattached. It seemed only colleges were listed. Not clubs. There is a lack of post collegiate incentive. What is the old adage, if a tree runs in the woods and its affiliation is not listed in the results nobody made any noise ? Tom Derderian, Greater Boston Track Club - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Monday, April 23, 2001 7:38 PM Subject: t-and-f: promo of Mt. SAC blabber on all you want about what should have been promoted re the Mt. SAC meet... all I know is, the largest, loudest group of fans over the three days of the meet appeared to be the parents of the young 'uns in the little-kid-relays on Sundaytalk about some yellin' and screamin'! now... where does THAT leave us in our discussion of where our fan base is? GM
Re: t-and-f: [Fwd: I don't get it]
on 23/4/01 8:12 PM, John Lunn at [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Please explain some things to me. When tracing ancestry, how far back do you go? I assumed that if you go back far enough, you and I would have the same root in this giant tree.No? If I line up next to you for a race, do I give a flip about your past beyond your PR? Looks to me that you only go as far back as you need to sell some books. Randall Northam Sportsbooks. The book that noone can argue with statistically because we only give the facts!!!
t-and-f: Mt. SAC chatter
For those unable to attend, I thought I would offer some commentary on several of the events at the just-completed Mt. SAC Relays: The distance carnival was held Friday night under conditions unusual this time of year in California: cold and windy, with rain. As I overheard one coach say to another, We came out here for this? We've got weather like this back home! Still, a hearty crowd of distance fans stayed in the stands until the final race was completed close to 11:30 p.m. Men's 5K: Those who in earlier messages sang the praises of Div. II runner Jason Huggard got only half the story; he not only ran a good time, he made the race. He continually pushed the pace, and made a bold move late in the race, when the pace lagged a bit, to jump in front of Bernard Lagat and keep things honest.Lagat, who appeared to be little more than jogging through most of the race, unloaded with a 57 second last lap for the easy win (13:30.54). Huggard held it together after Lagat flipped on the afterburners and finished 3rd with a Div. II leading time of 13:37.63. Abdi Abdirahman took the lead for a few early laps, but never really challenged Lagat -- certainly not to the extent that Huggard did so. In an earlier 5K race, World XC Junior find Matt Tegenkamp won in 13:51.36. Men's 10K: Another Div. II runner, Brandon Leslie of Adams State, should get most of the credit for making this a race. He jumped to the lead early, and opened up a gap so large by 5K that I thought he was a rabbit. Soon after 5K, a chase pack of Weldon Johnson, Keith Kelly, Pablo Olmedo (Mexico) and Murray Link caught up to Leslie. This group ran together for several laps, until Leslie once again took the lead and forced the pace. Kelly was the first to let go, and Link soon faded behind Kelly. At the bell, it looked like a three man race among Leslie, Johnson and Olmedo. On the backstretch, as the trio started to weave through several lapped runners, Kelly suddenly exploded, made up an incredible amount of ground in a short period of time, and took the lead on the final curve (with several people noting that this looked to be a repeat of his winning NCAA XC tactics. However, Johnson never let Kelly get to the pole, and a classic stretch drive ensued, with Johnson inching even with Kelly, then pulling slightly ahead only in the final 10 meters for the win (28:32.37 vs. 28:32.55). Leslie held on for 4th in a Div. II leading time of 28:39.17. Women's 10K: Kathy Butler just dipped under the WC qualifying standard with a solo 31:59.27. All the women in this race deserve medals, as they withstood the worst conditions of the night. Things really got nasty around miles 4 and 5, which I'm sure led many of the participants (as well as spectators) to wonder if it wasn't time to switch to one of those wimpy/indoor sports (golf? tennis?) which head inside or call it a day at the first sign of precipitation. Sunday, the invitational jumps/sprints/middle distance day, offered much nicer conditions, with only a swirling wind to contend with. 100: Bernard Williams didn't do his Rock impersonation, but still blasted to a WL 10.09 (+0.7). 200: Ato was very funny after an easy, eased up win in 20.76. Claimed that meet director Scott Davis guaranteed him a tail wind on 1.9. Instead, coming off the turn, Ato ran into one of the few headwinds (-1.1) of the day. Guess Scott will have to rent a few giant fans next year to guarantee an aiding wind. 400: I saw Tyree run a WL time last week at the UCLA-Nebraska meet, and I got to see him do it again (44.47) this week. I thought the Harrison twins were the heirs apparent to MJ, but Tyree looks ready to contest for the throne. He's looking scary running solo (Al-Bishi 2nd again this week in 45.64) this early in the season. Mile: Lagat repeated last year's 5K/mile double, coasting to a 3:55.40. List member Kevin Sullivan closed well to take second in 3:55.90. HS star Ryan Hall hung with the big boys through 800 (2:00), started to fade on lap 3 (3:03), then locked up on the final lap to run only 4:10 and finish last. 110H: Crear very smooth, winning in 13.51 (+0.4) over Swift (13.61). 400H: Carter an easy winner (49.14) over Al-Somali (49.47) with, fortunately, no sign of the Is that all you've got?/Bring it on wave from the Olympics. SP: Ho-hum, Godina throws another 70 footer (70-01/2). I'm afraid his routine greatness makes us take him for granted. JT: Greer PR 276-4 for the win. PV: LoJo opened at 19-03/4 -- and cleared on his first attempt. Two other Americans (Mack Buller) over as well, but LoJo wins on misses. LoJo took three shots at 19-6; none were particularly close. Also, I thought I heard the announcer say that 19-03/4 was the highest opening height ever (U.S.? World?) cleared in a PV competition. True? 400R: Mo Greene was in the house, but never out of his sweats, leaving his HSI mates (Drummond, Williams,
Re: t-and-f: featured athletes at Mt SAC, KU Relays
This message shows how out of touch you are. Weldon Johnson won the 10 over Keith Kelly. Kelly won the NCAA XC Champs. Would you say Keith is an elite runner? I would say exactly that, no offense to Kelly. And it's not to say that Keith has no potential to improve into elite status. Keith is national class, or collegiate All-American or whatever you want to call it, but not yet world class or elite class. If I'm out of touch to American collegiate fans, then at least I'm in touch with the standards of most of the rest of the track field world. I'll take the latter. The USATF announcement spouted a bunch of names that were DECIDEDLY NOT WORLD-CLASS, especially in the 400, 800 and field events. Yet left out mention of Olympic Finalists in the Distance races. In fact it left out mention of the distance races ALTOGETHER. I checked results yesterday, and I think I remember Abdi Abdirahman in the 5k. He is American, and he was an Olympian. Is the elite moniker only reserved for potential Olympic medalists? Exactly. Or ranked in the top ten in the world. That kind of stuff. The kind of power that we've seen in the past in the Mt. SAC sprints, and in the men's shot put. And the shot was missing people like Adam Nelson this year, but results yesterday were certainly elite-level. That leaves out A LOT of people. Sorry. If everybody was elite it would lose all relevance. There was no excuse (that I could see) for the blatant bias in that event promotion. Your excuse does hold water either. I didn't write the promotion, but I understood it with no problem. Mt. SAC has a reputation for a different presentation package than Penn, Florida Relays, Texas Relays and so forth. Santa Monica TC battling Brazil to try for a 4x800 world record for instance (is that the right race a few years ago?), when Brazil had Barbosa and Cruz and SMTC was anchored by Johnny Gray. If I recall right, at the time Cruz, Gray and Barbosa were ranked in the top four in the world (along with Coe). Santa Monica TC (in the past) or HSI (currently) blazing world class individual sprint and sprint relay times. World class men's (and often women's) throws. Visiting throwers like Ubartas cranking out world leaders. NCAA qualifier times and distances won't get you any newsprint in this crowd. They're a dime a dozen. Oh yes, at one time the Mt. SAC hammer throw cage had a sign hanging on it that claimed that national records for something like 10, repeat that TEN different countries had been set there. Note that there is no room left on the sign for American collegiate records, though those have certainly been set there too. That's elite. RT
Re: t-and-f: Elite expectations
On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 11:40:56 EDT, you wrote: While I do not agree with Kebba's elite requirements, I do think he makes a very good point regarding expectations. It is the old debate that goes around and around in here about distance running in the US, but it remains true. The overall expectations of the US distance running are low, and in part that hinders the development. An example is Webb. There is a lot of discussion about his successes, and times, but there are also discussions regarding if he is running too much, too fast, too soon. It becomes evident when we start to discuss sprinters or foreign distance runners. Junior sprinters are expected to be world class by the time the finish college, if not sooner, and there is rare talk of over training when we discuss foreign juniors. As a matter of fact, it was with interest that I looked at the Mt. SAC Invitational Mile results yesterday. Some of the pre-meet build-up had been around HSer Ryan Hall getting dragged along for a sub-4. Well that didn't happen. But it was interesting that the winning time was within a tenth of a second of the real American HS record of 3:55.3. Did anybody else notice that? When Ryun ran his stuff, the race competition was much the same as the Mt. SAC race yesterday, but the difference was Ryun was up there fighting with the leaders, and the time was near the WR. Comparison today would be a high schooler running sub-3:50, threatening the American Record. Okay, so Steve Scott ran today's AR after much post-collegiate development, something unheard of very much in the 60's. So split the difference and say 3:52 should be a realistic target for today's best American high schoolers. Unrealistic? Burnout territory? Well how's this observation: shouldn't 3:52 be a good target for somebody who hopes to match the American record by the end of his college years, and the World record before he retires? If you can't get into 3:52 territory by age 18, you're probably never gonna set a world mile record. High expectations? Of course. What have we heard lately in America about succumbing to the soft bigotry of low expectations? Different subject matter; same on-target comment- it applies to American distance runners just as well as to the education of minorities. Okay, fire away. RT
Re: t-and-f: Elite expectations
In a message dated 4/23/01 10:46:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you can't get into 3:52 territory by age 18, you're probably never gonna set a world mile record. Any idea what Morceli and El G's PR's were at 18? Not sure myself about El G but Morceli did not run 3:52. Steve S.
t-and-f: Who was Jeff Laynes high school coach?
Michael: Jeff Laynes ran for Oakland High School, in Oakland, California. Laynes placed second in the 1989 California State Meet 100 meters in 10.48 (+1.94mps) behind Curtis Conway (Hawthorne) 10.42. The head Oakland High School track coach was David Ponas and the assistant coach was Doug Owyang. David is now the Athletic Director at the school and Doug coaches at the City College of San Francisco. David also coached in Saudi Arabia. Doug has a great sprinter this year in former state high school champion Tania Woods, who defeated all the D1 women at the Stanford Invitational and ran well at Mt. SAC on Sunday. I remember driving Jeff Laynes back to his steel-gated apartment house in downtown Oakland, because he forgot to bring his knee brace to an important high school meet at Laney College. I'm going to my first Penn Relays this week. I can hardly wait. Keith Keith Conning 735 Brookside Drive Vacaville, CA 95688-3509 FAX: 707-448-7667 E-Mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] WEB: http://hometown.aol.com/conning/myhomepage/index.html
RE: t-and-f: Elite expectations
Not quite the answer you were looking for butI can remember seeing a news article last year stating that Australia's female prodigy Georgie Clarke (PB of 4-06) had a faster 1500m best at age 16 than (from memory) Seb Coe, Steve Cram and El Guerrouj! Regards - GT -Original Message-From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]Sent: Tuesday, 24 April 2001 13:56To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]Subject: Re: t-and-f: Elite expectationsIn a message dated 4/23/01 10:46:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you can't get into 3:52 territory by age 18, you're probably never gonna set a world mile record. Any idea what Morceli and El G's PR's were at 18? Not sure myself about El G but Morceli did not run 3:52. Steve S.
t-and-f: featured athletes at Mt SAC,
netters Hey Scott Davis do me a favor will you please. Tell these guys which race had the only AR's set in it and was one of the best race out there. They wouldn't believe me if I swore on a Bible.
Re: t-and-f: Elite expectations
Morceli, as an 18 year old ran 3:40.41 (Gateshead '88) for 1500m. Hardly a 3:52 mile. The next year he turned it up a bit and ran 3:37.87 at Verona. Still a few seconds off a 3:52 mile. As a 20 year old he ran most of his races in the 3:33-35 range. I don't know as much about ElG except he did run 3:31 (Cologne) and 3:48 (Zurich) in 95 when he was 20 years old (right?). In 94 I think he was a 3:33 type. Joel [.sig] AXAF Public Outreach: http://xrtpub.harvard.edu Morceli Home Page: http://www.cs.rochester.edu/u/tetreaul/morceli.html On Mon, 23 Apr 2001 [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: In a message dated 4/23/01 10:46:56 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: If you can't get into 3:52 territory by age 18, you're probably never gonna set a world mile record. Any idea what Morceli and El G's PR's were at 18? Not sure myself about El G but Morceli did not run 3:52. Steve S.
