Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
> I think if the best 800 guys ran the 400 we would see a few 45s, a bunch > of 46s and a whole lot of 47s. Many cannot break 48. For instance Marko > Koers who I've seen run the 400 open several times hasn't broken 48 that I > know of. I would guess he might hit 47.8 at the very best. There may be > a couple of exceptions like Mark Everett. About nine years ago I ran against Koers in a 400m which he won in 47.2 - 47.3. This despite the fact that Koers considers himself to be primarily a 1500m man. Dutch 800m hope Bram Som (1.44.01) has the third fastest 400m time ever for a Dutch junior at 47.09. Wilson Kipketer ran the first lap of his 1997 WR (1.41.24) in 48.10 seconds. His Kenyan rabbit, Joseph Tengelei, ran 47.8 - 47.9. I think you do not give 800m runners enough credit. Based on personal observation I would say the following times correspond roughly: 800m in 1. 55 = 400m in 50.0 - 52.0 800m in 1. 50 = 400m in 48.0 - 50.0 800m in 1.45 = 400m in 45.5 - 47.0 Of course, many 800m runners do not train specifically for the 400m and few elite 800m athletes run competitive 400m races after their junior period. But I am willing to bet that almost all top 800m athletes had very competitive 400m times as juniors. Elliott
Re: t-and-f: Fiasconaro
Michel, that's nice, almost sentimental. And reminds me that in essence he may ahve been more of a rugby player than a track competitor. I can read Italian (and seven other languages. So can - I would guess - our Swedish, Danish, Dutch and Norwegeian colleagues). Our Americans friends who constitute the overwhelming majority of the list may find this more difficult to decipher but at least the (short) record of Marcello's performances is intelligible in any language. Brings back memories of times when we believed that there was little to improve in world atheletics. How wrong were we! UG Quoting "michel.saint-raymond" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Here is Marcello Fiasconaro's biography from FIDAL (Italian federation) > : > > Nato il 19 luglio 1949 a Città del Capo, Sud Africa; il padre era > siciliano, > di Castelbuono. Presenze in Nazionale: 12. Alto 1.85 per 74 kg di > peso. > Allenatore: Stuart Banner. Primatista mondiale degli 800 nel 1973. > > Sudafricano di papà italiano, proveniente dallo sport della palla > ovale, fu > segnalato alla FIDAL dall ex discobolo Carmelo Rado, che viveva in > Sud > Africa. Estroverso, gioviale, una volta in Italia si accattivò subito > le > simpatie generali. All inizio del 1972 stabilì anche il primato > mondiale > indoor dei 400 con 46.1. Fu 400ista nella prima parte della sua > carriera, > 800ista nella seconda parte. Nella gara in cui stabilì il mondiale > degli > 800, opposto ad uno dei più forti dEuropa, il cecoslovacco Jozef > Plachy, > fece gara di testa dal primo all ultimo metro; un record nel record. > Purtroppo guai tendinei e microfratture ad un piede gli impedirono di > partecipare ai Giochi Olimpici di Monaco e di ben figurare ai > Campionati > Europei 1974. Dopo un paio di > stagioni come rugbista a Milano, è tornato per sempre in Sud Africa. > > Curriculum > Titoli italiani : 400 1971, 1972, 1973 - 400 indoor 1972 - 800 indoor > 1975 > Campionati Europei : 2/1971 400, 3/1971 4 x 400, 6/1974 800, elimin. > batt./1974 4 x 400 > > Performances 400 metri > > 45.49(2)Helsinki 13-8-71 (EC) > 45.5 (1)Viareggio 25-7-71 > 45.6 (1)Formia 1-5-72 > 45.6 (1)Pretoria 17-3-73 > 45.6 (1)Potchefstroom 20-4-73 > 45.7 (1)Roma 8-7-71 > 45.8 (1)Stellenbosch 31-3-71 > 45.9 (1)Pretoria 3-4-71 > 45.9 (1)Pretoria 19-1-72 > 45.9 (1)Praga 21-6-72 > 45.9 (1)Potchefstroom 7-3-73 > 45.9 (1)Pretoria 6-4-73 > 45.9 (1)Torino 2-6-73 > 45.9 (1)Milano 26-6-73 > > Performances 800 metri > > 1:43.7 (1)Milano 27-6-73 > 1:44.7 (1)Johannesburg 27-4-73 > 1:45.2 (1)Potchefstroom 22-4-73 > 1:45.8 (2)Torino 18-7-73 > 1:45.9 (1)Parigi 27-5-73 > 1:46.1 (1)Formia 25-8-74 > 1:46.28 (6)Roma 4-9-74 (EC) > 1:46.3 (2)Pretoria 7-4-73 > 1:46.3 (1)Helsinki 19-6-73 > 1:46.4 (2)Stellenbosch 26-3-73 > > Michel Saint-Raymond > (National records site : http://aimeserre.multimania.com/index.html) >
Re: t-and-f: Re:Fiasconaro
He did! Broke the WR but did not last vetry long. UG _ Quoting [EMAIL PROTECTED]: > If memory serves me correct - Fiasconaro ran for Italy after South > Africa was banned from International competition. > > Steve S >
Re: t-and-f: Fiasconaro - also a WR holder
... and incidentally 1:43.7 was a new world record... Uri Goldbourt uoting "Wayne T. Armbrust" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > > > "P.F.Talbot" wrote: > > > Wayne, > > > > I've never heard of this guy. Do you know what times he ran or where > I > > could find out? As an ex-800m guy I'm always curious about people in > the > > event. > > > > Paul > > > > I had to do some digging for this through my old T&FNs. From the > January 1974 > issue which was the 1973 World Rankings issue: For 1973 Marcello > Fiasconaro was > credited with 45.6 (tied for 11th on the world list, honorable mention > in the > rankings) and 1:43.7 (1st on the world list, ranked third after > Wohlhuter and > Dannie Malan of S. Africa). > > -- > Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Computomarx > 3604 Grant Ct. > Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA > (573) 445-6675 (voice & FAX) > http://www.Computomarx.com > "Know the difference between right and wrong... > Always give your best effort... > Treat others the way you'd like to be treated..." > - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000) > >
t-and-f: IAAF Elections ("Four candidates")
Something that is unclear to me about the prospective IAAF election, either from posts to date or from the IAAF website, is the number of the nominees to be elected and whom they would replace. Since all members of the Council are elected for four-year terms, it might be possible to arrive at some approximation of this information through the "Structure" links on the website, but the question would remain of which members who are concluding a four-year term (or a second or third, etc., four-year term) will run for re-election. Perhaps someone could clarify this for us. Another useful bit would be whether the Secretary General is considered one of the four vice-presidents, since otherwise there are only three; unless the Honorary Treasurer is a vice-president, in which case there are 28 members, instead of the 27 described in the structure. Lastly, it might be interesting to know which of the 21 Council members who are not officers are the six "area representatives" and which are "individual members," especially if that should affect the positions sought by the nominees who have been listed. All of which is an overly-long preamble to the questions that interest me most about this election. Does it strike anyone else that a large proportion of the new nominees are from countries that are undistinguished in their participation in track and field? If so, is it a matter for any concern? I can provide some data on the first of these questions. I'm not sure data would illuminate the second. The last time I summarized data on national representation in the world top-100 of each event was following the 1999 outdoor season. I'll use those numbers (abstracted, with permission, from Mirko Jalava's world lists). For the sake of comparison, consider this list of nations most strongly represented by number of athletes ranked in the world top 100 of individual events: United States 567 Russia 344 Germany 256 Kenya 251 France 192 Japan 180 China 178 Here are the equivalent numbers for the nations of nominees identified in IAAF media posts: President Eisa Abdullah Al Dashti (Kuwait)0 Lamine Diack (Senegal) 16 Suresh Kalmadi (India) 13 Vice-President Helmut Digel (Germany)256 Alberta Juanterena Danger (Cuba) 59 Suresh Kalmadi, again (India) 13 Cesar Nirebi Bravo (Mexico)42 Council Member Dahlan Jaiman B Al-Hamad (Qatar) 5 Saud bin Hamed Al Rawahi (Oman)0 Luciano Barra (Italy)158 Sergey Bubka (Ukraine) 118 Gianni Gola (Italy) 158 Mohamad Hasan (Indonesia) 0 Derek James (Botswana) 0 Suresh Kalmadi, again (India) 13 Ilkka Kanerve (Finland) 80 Noel Lynch (Barbados) 6 Justice Austain Mnaulgulu (Malawi) 0 Miguel Angel Paredes (Paraguay)2 Mehmet Yudadön (Turkey) 13 Granted the exceptions of the nominees from Germany, Italy and Ukraine (and with a nod to Juanterena), what would be the basis for election of candidates from these countries to make decisions that would govern world track and field? Those decisions might range from rules changes, to venue selection, to disqualification of athletes from competition. I think those decisions should be made by representatives of countries that have demonstrated an effective commitment to program development in our sport. Are there other selection bases that have escaped my attention? Cheers, Roger
t-and-f: Entry list for Cardinal Invitational
Cardinal Track & Field Invitational Cobb Track and Angell Field Stanford University May 4, 2001 LIST OF DECLARED ENTRANTS Be sure to check with the Clerk on Friday for a final listing of sections in the 800m, 1500m, and 3000m Steeplechase. Competitors will pick up packets at the entrance to Cobb Track and Angell Field beginning on Friday afternoon. Be sure to check at the track on Friday for any last minute changes to the time schedule. Running Events Men's 110 Meter Hurdles at 6:15pm 1. Tim Bogdanof, Unattached 2. Michael Harte, Stanford 3. Ben Bogdanof, Fresno Pacific Women's 100 Meter Hurdles at 6:20pm 1. Bisa Grant, EOYDC TC 2. Stephanie Thomas, Unattached 3. Ayana Grant, EOYDC TC 4. Tracye Lawyer, Nike Men 100 Meter Dash at 6:35pm 1. Jerome Avery, Procor 2. Michael Hoffer, Unattached 3. Marty Krulee, Unattached Women's 3000 Meter Steeplechase at 7:00pm 1. Lois Joslin, Butler 2. Kerry Hils, Missouri 3. Renee Metivier, Georgia Tech 4. Katie Sabino, North Carolina State 5. Sarah Steadman, Texas A&M 6. Marget Larson, Colorado State 7. Katie Meyer, Missouri 8. Amy Wiseman, Arkansas 9. Anne Somerville, Michigan State 10. Alana Crisman, Loyola-Chicago Men's 3000 Meter Steeplechase (2 sections) NON-Championship section will be at 7:15pm. Championship section will race at 7:30pm. 1. Tom Chorny, Nike 2. Dave Cullum, Nike Farm Team 3. Ray Hughes, Nike 4. Donovan Bergstrom, Asics TC 5. Jeremy Tolman, Weber State 6. Jared Cordes, Wisconsin 7. Andy Tate, Kansas 8. Micah Davis, Nike 9. Fred Carter, Nike Farm Team 10. Jonathan Clemens, US Navy 11. Tom Reese, Saucony 12. Samuel Wilbur, US Army 13. Joel Atwater, Weber State 14. Shane Rogers, Air Force Academy 15. Juan Debastos, Texas A&M 16. Adam MacDowell, Unattached 17. Erik Kiauka, Portland 18. Carl Stewart, Texas A&M 19. Josh Muxen, Unattached 20. Kevin Barra, Texas 21. Corbin Talley, Weber State 22. Joe Wilson, Weber State 23. Tom Brooks, Indiana 24. Brad Christenson, Utah 25. Drew Hohensee, Wisconsin Women's 800 Meter Run (2 sections) at 7:45pm 1. Shayne Culpepper, Adidas 2. Vicky Lynch-Pounds, Mountain West TC 3. Lindsay Hyatt, Stanford 4. Allison Adams, Weber State 5. Stephanie Hansen, Weber State 6. Lannie Millar, Baylor 7. Sarah Hamilton, Unattached 8. Summer Shaw, Wake Forest 9. Rachel Sturtz, Michigan 10. Holly Haguewood, BYU 11. Eri Macdonald, Oregon 12. Ali Pearson, California-Santa Barbara 13. April Johnson, Tulsa Men's 800 Meter Run (2 sections) at 7:55pm 1. Sammy Langat, Kim MacDonald International Management 2. Justin Rinaldi, Australia 3. Andy Lixey, Michigan State 4. Floyd Thompson, Baylor 5. Jason Owen, Minnesota 6. Paul Singleton, Wake Forest 7. Brian Rue, Texas 8. Aaron Crockett, Texas 9. Toby Henkels, Minnesota 10. Mike Connelly, Clemson 11. Shawn McCullough, Tulsa 12. Damian Davis, Baylor 13. Ron DiMaggio, Unattached 14. Brian Erwin, Tulsa 15. Jacob Green, California-Santa Barbara 16. Ben Armel, California-Santa Barbara 17. Busayo Ojumu, Stanford Men's 5000 Meter Run (NON-Championship section) at 8:05pm 1. Art Siemers, Boulder RR 2. Eric Gans, Unattached 3. Jason Meany, Clemson 4. Dave Davis, Adidas Fleet Feet 5. Josh Horton, California-Santa Barbara 6. Chris Pluchos, Mizuno 7. Adam Growley, Winthrop 8. Andrew Cook, Texas A&M 9. Ben Dawson, Texas 10. Jason Cullinane, Nike Farm Team 11. Nate Bowen, Nike Farm Team 12. Steve Rider, Unattached 13. Matt Norminton, Calgary Spartans 14. Will McComb, Minnesota 15. Jeremy Polson, Minnesota 16. Joe Monaco, Air Force Academy 17. Ben Lake, Oklahoma State 18. Dan Olmstead, Team Eugene/Asics 19. Chris Acs, Air Force Academy Women's 5000 Meter Run at 8:25pm 1. Una English, Ireland 2. Kim Fitchen, Nike Farm Team 3. Maggie Chan, Hong Kong 4. Lilli Kleinmann, Arkansas 5. Elizabeth Jackson, BYU 6. Leigh Daniel, Texas Tech 7. Claudia Stalder, Switzerland 8. Jodie Hughes, Colorado 9. Chris Lundy, Nike Farm Team 10. Kelly Cordell, Asics TC 11. Mindy Leffler, Club Northwest 12. Tara Northcutt, BYU 13. Hanna Smedstad, Oregon 14. Fride Vullum, Tulsa 15. Sally Glynn, Stanford 16. Melissa Gulli, Texas A&M 17. Sara Day, Wake Forest 18. Elena Villarreal, Stanford 19. Erin Sullivan, Stanford 20. Kathy Kadziolka, Ball State 21. Kristin Harper, Fila Track West 22. Nicole Ricci, Portland 23. Rebecca Bennion, Weber State 24. Courtney Lancashire, Wake Forest 25. Keely Weaver, Unattached 26. Christy Csorna, Belmont 27. Jaime Flood, Air Force Academy Men's 5000 Meter Run (Championship section) at 8:45pm 1. Andrew Walker, Kim MacDonald International Management 2. Dave Cullum, Nike Farm Team 3. Sean Kaley, Nike 4. Matt Lane, William & Mary 5. Brian Baker, New Balance 6. Tim Broe, Adidas 7. Jonathon Riley, Stanford 8. Jeremy Deere, Calgary Spartans 9. Sharif Karie, Arkansas 10. Murray Link, Arkansas 11. Chris Katon, NYAC 12. Oliver Wirz, Nike Switzerland 13. Kenneth Svend
t-and-f: Re: NCAA Division II Rankings
> Date: 2 May 2001 17:16:39 CDT > From: Brian Kavanaugh <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: t-and-f: NCAA Division II Rankings > >The NCAA Division II Track & Field Power Rankings for May 16 are now posted at the http://www.d2rankings.com web site. Okay - I'm really ahead of myself. I meant to write May 2... -- Brian Kavanaugh Lotus/Domino R5 CLP, Development Multi-Option Systems, Inc. 11920 Burt Street, Suite 100 Omaha, NE 68154-1598 (402) 431-8000 / (800) 551-MOSI [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
t-and-f: Preview of Cardinal Invitational at Stanford
The Cardinal Track & Field Invitational Cobb Track and Angell Field Stanford University May 4, 2001 In just six years, the Cardinal Invitational has developed into one of the premier track and field meets of the outdoor season. Each May, college and elite level athletes gather at Cobb Track and Angell Field with intentions of achieving qualifying marks for the season's remaining championship meets. Tonight's athletes will have their eyes set on the standards for the NCAA Championships, USATF Championships, and the IAAF World Championships, making the 2001 version of the Cardinal Invitational the best yet. Hundreds of top collegiate athletes and international stars are scheduled to compete assuring top performances in virtually every event. Excluding the Atlanta Olympic Games in 1996, tonight's Men's 10,000 meters may be the best field ever assembled in the United States. American distance stars Bob Kennedy, Alan Culpepper, Meb Keflezighi, Abdi Abdirahman, Nick Rogers, and former Stanford All-American Brad Hauser are scheduled to compete putting in jeopardy the 10,000 meter American record of 27:20.56 held by Mark Nenow since 1984. Kennedy, the American record holder over 5000 meters, owns the fastest time among these six U.S. Olympians in the 10,000 meters at 27:38.37 set at Stanford's Cobb Track and Angell Field in 1999. Abdirahman finished tenth in the 10,000 meter Olympic finals in Sydney while Keflezighi was twelfth. Culpepper was the 2000 U.S. Olympic Trials runner-up. Hauser and Nick Rogers ran the 5000 meters for the United States in the Sydney Olympics. Competing against the Americans in their record attempt will be a slew of international stars including a group of Kenya's top distance runners representing Kim MacDonald International Management. After training at Stanford since April, Kenyan Luke Kipkosgei will run the 10,000 meters on the Cobb Track oval for the first time. Kipkosgei has a personal best of 27:22.54 over the 6.2 mile distance and last year was ranked eighth in the world in the 5000 meters with a time of 12:56.50. Abraham Chebii was ranked 15th in the world over 5000 meters with a time of 13:01.90, but will tackle the longer distance tonight. Mark Carroll and Jeff Schiebler, 10,000 meter national record holders from Ireland and Canada are also entered along with Japan's Toshin Takaoka, the seventh place finisher at the Olympic Games in Sydney. Nineteen-year-old Kenyan sensation Albert Chepkurui and Martin Keino, son of the great Kip Keino, will pace the field. With such a strong group of athletes entered, tonight's race could be the fastest 10,000 meters ever run on American soil. You will not want to miss this featured race! In addition to the men's 10,000 meters, each of the other 25 men's and women's events will feature elite university and post collegiate athletes vying for championship performances. Former Stanford All-American Jason Lunn and this year's NCAA Indoor mile champion Bryan Berryhill are headliners in the men's 1500 meters. U.S. Olympian Shayne Culpepper is scheduled to run in the women's 800 meters. Culpepper brings to The Farm a personal record of 2:02.51 for the half-mile. University of Arkansas' Tracy Robertson, the 2001 women's NCAA Indoor mile champion will compete in the 1500 meters. In the men's 5000 meters, Olympian Sean Kaley representing Nike enters with a personal best of 13:25.18. With a best of 13:27.46, Matt Lane from William and Mary, winner of the 10,000 meters at the Stanford Invitational on March 31 will push Kaley to the wire. Look for Nike's Tom Chorny and Ray Hughes to push the pace in the men's steeplechase with personal bests of 8:27.67 and 8:33.29, respectively. In the women's 100 meter hurdles, Bisa Grant, who recently finished seventh at the World Indoor Championships over the 60 meter barriers, should lead the field to a quick time. The field events should be just as competitive where big jumps and far throws should be the norm. American Andy Bloom, the number two ranked shot putter in the world in 2000 will throw both the shot put and the discus, an event in which he had the world's sixth furthest throw last season at 224-7. We are confident you will enjoy the 2001 Cardinal Invitational. Many of the most prominent American and international stars will compete at Cobb Track and Angell Field as the championship portion of the 2001 outdoor track and field season gets under way at Stanford. Enjoy the meet! --- REVISED TIME SCHEDULE Please be sure to check at the track on Friday for any last minute changes to the time schedule. Running Events 6:15pm Men's 110m Hurdles 6:20pm Women's 100m Hurdles 6:30pm Women's 100m 6:35pm Men's 100m 6:45pm Women's 400m 6:50pm Men's 400m 7:00pm Women's 3000m Steeplechase 7:15pm Men's 3000m Steeplechase (Non-C
t-and-f: Start list for Men's 10k at Cardinal Invitational
Here is the start list for the Men's 10,000m Championship Section at the Cardinal Track & Field Invitational. The race will take place at 9:15pm. Tickets will be available in Payton Jordan Plaza at the entrance to Cobb Track and Angell Field. Ticket prices are $10, $5 for kids 12 and under. Results from the meet will be posted periodically to gostanford.com. Results from this race should be available around 10pm Friday night. Men's 10,000 Meter Run (Championship Section) at 9:15pm 1. Albert Chepkurui, Kim MacDonald International Management 2. Martin Keino, Kim MacDonald International Management 3. James Getanda, Kim MacDonald International Management 4. Luke Kipkosgei, Kim MacDonald International Management 5. Abraham Chebii, Kim MacDonald International Management 6. Bob Kennedy, Nike International 7. Alan Culpepper, Adidas 8. Toshinari Takaoka, Japan 9. Abdi Abdirahman, Nike International 10. Mark Carroll, Ireland 11. Mebrahtom Keflezighi, Nike 12. Jeff Schiebler, Nike/Canada 13. Nick Rogers, Nike 14. Satoshi Irifune, Japan 15. Jason Rexing, Nike Farm Team 16. Toshiuiro Iwasa, Japan 17. Brad Hauser, Nike International 18. Michael Aish, Western State 19. Ben Noad, Boston AA 20. Phil Price, Team USA 21. Yoji Yamaguchi, Japan 22. Greg Jimmerson, Nike Farm Team 23. Matt Downin, Nike 24. Weldon Johnson, LetsRun.com 25. Shawn Found, US Army 26. Clint Wells, NYAC 27. Andrew Letherby, Fila 28. Alan Bunce, New Zealand 29. Brent Hauser, Nike Farm Team
t-and-f: Convert this
Thanks to Ken Stone for posting this and giving me an opportunity to get off the rant I've been thinking about since last week's long run: > Fantastic 5000: The British track and field newsletter Athletics > International reports in its latest edition that a remarkable women's masters > track record went unspotted last summer. Romanian Elena Fidatov (born July > 24, 1960) ran the 5000 meters in 15:20.59 in Bucharest on August 7, > obliterating the previous masters WR of 15:51.7 by Nicole Leveque in 1994. > > Me again: That's sub-5-minute mile pace for 3.1 miles. Incredible. Perhaps as > amazing is the fact that this didn't come to light until now -- nine months > after the fact. Quite a gestation period for a mark worth 14:37 when > age-graded to compare with open (elite) competition. (The outdoor women's WR > for 5000 is 14:28.09.) Ok, I have no idea how you go about converting this performance to within 10 seconds of the world record. But there is only one relevant conversion device in track - it is called a watch, and it converts races to times. (They use a different device, called a measuring tape, to convert in field events.) This woman's race converts to 15:20, and until they start running handicap races at the Olympics that is all it will ever convert to. I realize (or hope) that on this list I am mostly preaching to the choir here, but there are so many screwed up ideas rolled into this that it has to be pointed out: - First, the idea that age group (on the old side) track is even remotely comparable to open competition, or even to juniors. With juniors you have a lot more people competing, a higher percentage of them really trying to maximize their performances, and - most important - they have relevance because THEY WILL GET BETTER. - The concept that you can use the age-graded tables - which I think somehow are related to the best performances previously done in an age-group - to show that someone is equivalent to a world championships medalist. No, what you have shown is that no one really good has tried really hard at that age before. Until you have the same number of people training at the same intensity as we see in open competition, no mark can be "age-graded" to produce a world-record equivalent. You want the age-graded equivalent of Michael Johnson's 200m WR? It's what would happen when the person at a particular age with the best combination of talent and resistance to aging trained just as hard and smart as the Olympic finalists, and used the same drugs if the open guys were using them (insert your own assumption here.) Guess what - the odds are astronomical against that happening, given how few people in older age groups train like that. - The idea that women distance runners who turn 40 should get some major boost in the conversion tables, even if we do admit the concept of age-grading is legitimate. Have we not seen enough examples of women from the mile to the marathon who were world class - real world class, against people of any age - to know that not everyone at that age needs a handicap? Then by definition, isn't a 3.5 sec/lap handicap a little ridiculous? - Finally (though it wasn't mentioned here) the idea that women become masters competitors at 35. This rule exists solely to create more competitors for masters track, because there are not many women competing (thus confirming my first two points.) Anecdotal evidence from watching world class track tells me women are substantially LESS likely to suffer major drops in performance in the 35-39 age bracket than men. If you want to take these ladies entry fees at local meets, fine. But don't insult a world-ranked 36-year-old by calling a good race a "world masters record" or whatever it was. I'm closer to being a master than a junior, and I hope I can have fun and run fast in how ever many age groups I make it into. But I won't kid myself that the sport doesn't rightly belong to the people whose competition gets faster every year. david p.s. - my apologies to all those on digest for forgetting to turn off the HTML-text on my last two messages. If you use Outlook Express or Netscape for your mail and DON'T know what I am talking about, then please do not send another message to the list without going to the format menu and choosing "plain text" when you are composing.
Re: t-and-f: Maurice Defense
If you are going to quote me please quote me correctly ... I wrote: "You know it is somewhat ironic that the media expects athletes to serve as role models, yet they themselves usually do not ... By that I mean that a role model is someone who shoulde act in a responsible manner ... And the media rarely does so ..." Conway >From: Reuben Frank <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: Reuben Frank <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] >Subject: Re: t-and-f: Maurice Defense >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 17:31:12 -0700 (PDT) > > > > I'll file this statement in the "Most Ridiculous >Generalizations of the Century" category. > > Reuben Frank > Burlington County Times > Willingboro, N.J. > > > > >the media expects athletes to serve as role models, > >yet ... they rarely do so > > >= > >"This content in no way reflects the opinions, standards, or policy of the >United States Air Force Academy or the United States government." > > >__ >Do You Yahoo!? >Yahoo! Auctions - buy the things you want at great prices >http://auctions.yahoo.com/ _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Michael not behind at takeoff
Actually you could see that on the TV as well ... I was going to say something, but then everyone considers me to be an MJ basher so would not have had the same effect coming from me ... :o) Conway >From: "Ed Grant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Reply-To: "Ed Grant" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >To: "track net" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: t-and-f: Michael not behind at takeoff >Date: Mon, 30 Apr 2001 20:11:27 -0700 > >Netters: > Just to set the record straight, Michael Johnson ws not touched >off in 2nd place in the Penn 1600R. He got the baton a slight bit ahead, >but settled in and allowed the Jamaican runner to take the lead, then just >followd him until the proper moment came. It probably looked like he was >behind from most of the stadium, but those with a finish line view could >tell the difference. It's an academic question, of course, since he ran in >second most of the way at his own choice. > Ed Grant _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
Re: t-and-f: Re: t-and-f-digest V1 #3597
> >> You could say all you want that the 800 meters is not a distance event, but > >> this is a matter of climes, not boxes. Physiological studies show that one > >> needs to draw on your aerobic energy reserves after about 45 seconds or so. > >> That makes 800 meters very much a distance race. No, it means it has a distance component. Big difference > The anatomical and physiological profile of every event is slightly different. Check out > >> JMTanner's studies on this, or more recent ones by Robert Malina, Claude > >> Bouchard, Lindsay Carter, and many others. There is quite a large gap > >> between the 400 meter profile and the 800 meter profile. Period. > Try to grasp the difference between INDIVIDUALS and GROUPS. There may be an > "ideal" body type based on the AVERAGE of INDIVIDUALS, but it is not > eliminate the possibility of wide variation. > > I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. The lack of scientific > sophistication on this point is unbelievable. A profile - do you mean a CORRELATION? Or do you mean some theoretical model (don't get me started on theoretical models). I can't repeat what my statistics teacher told me about the lack of value in using a correlation to prove anything - we don't want the list shut down again. I do have to defend Mr. Entine to some extent in that he has collected a lot of valid data. Much of it supports a theory that most of us sense intuitively - that certain populations will be more successful at distance running than others. You'd have to be blind not to recognize the truth in that. But as I've said over and over again, the relevence for most of us is minimal. - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: info on salazar vs. rono at eugene in '82
In a message dated 5/2/01 4:12:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: > As much as I'd like to see this happen I can't see any American running 27:20 > this weekend. Thank god your not one of the runners, It does not matter what you think, it matters what the runners think and if their training has matched their thinking. It easy to say "no way". You may prove right but, I would rather be a believer; it's just my nature. Mike "Plat, that better not be beer in your bag at the back of the bus!!" - Doug Watts, Coach EUP 1985 (what the heck, everyone else has a quote)
t-and-f: New Club Nationals
GH asked me to post the following to the list. It is from the T&FN issue that came out today. Hopefully, the article will clear up some of the confusion surrounding USATF nationals. The rest of the highlights from the latest issue will be on www.trackandfieldnews.com by tomorrow morning. New Club Nationals by Pete Cava In years past, the team title was a significant prize at the national championships and Indianapolis was a hotbed for major meets. Lately, each has stirred as much enthusiasm as a return to cinder tracks. With the creation of the National Club Championships, USA Track & Field hopes to reverse those trends and also provide extra opportunities for late-blooming athletes. The inaugural meethosted by the Indiana Invaderswill take place July 1921. Prior to the ¹80s, winning a team championship at national meets was an important objective for regionally-oriented clubs like the Southern California Striders or Brooklyn¹s Atoms TC. But with the advent of ³national teams,² shoe-company clubs like Nike and Reebok began to corner the market on top athletes and team titles. While team trophies are still at stake at national meets, old-style clubs have scant chance of winning, and the race for the prize generates little interest. The idea of separate national club championships had been in the works for about a decade but only became reality last year after Bill Roe, now the USATF president, headed a meeting at the Olympic Trials where plans for the meet were hammered out. ³This is just the first step in what we hope is a whole summer program aimed at revitalizing the club system,² he says. The club championships will be open to U.S. citizens who belong to USATF-member clubs. Entrants must have a mark that ranks among the top 32 in the nation (qualifying period January 1 through July 7). The original plan was that athletes could also qualify through four regional competitions, based on the old Sports Festival zones, the top two in each event qualifying. But, says USATF¹s Andy Martin, ³It looks like there¹s only one regional this year. The East Region is having their championship on July 8 in New London, Connecticut. ³I know that Bill Roe sort of had this vision of the regionals serving as the qualifying event; it¹s not going to happen this year. It¹s gonna be more of an effort of promoting the event through the local clubs. So that¹s what we¹re working onalerting them that the championships is happening, and that it¹s an event directed at their segment of the sport.² Roe sees the club championships as an outlet for post-collegiate athletes. ³The sport has many athletes who weren¹t that great in college,² he maintains. ³Clubs play an important role in the upbringing of the athlete. We hope [the club championships] will give many, many more post-collegians a feeling that track and field isn¹t done for them the minute they walk up to receive their diploma.² No one expects the meet to siphon off athletes from the European circuit. ³This first year, I¹m sure some events will not be full,² says Roe, who believes the meet will attract ³a couple of national names, mostly regional-level athletes.² Indianapolis was a hotbed of outdoor track between ¹82 and ¹88, but aside from the ¹97 USATF, the Indy scene has gone fallow for more than a dozen years. Some claim the club championships will have little impact on the city¹s sporting reputation or on the sport itself. One veteran track insider notes that in the ¹90s, USATF introduced club championships in cross country with ³no effect.² But Roe is optimistic. With no title sponsor for this year¹s meet, he¹s counting on assistance from USATF¹s corporate patrons, along with local sponsorship recruited by the Invaders. ³Whatever cash we can raise will go toward prize funds in some manner,² he says. ³But we think we¹re a year away from that.²
training specificity - was t-and-f: 800m combinations
Steve Bennett wrote: > The other thing that needs to be recognized strongly is the need to train to > develop efficiency at 800m pace. This is the often forgotten factor ie deliberately > training to improve race specific efficiency. Very true. This something that often is forgotten at all distances. The most important thing in any race is to teach yourself how to run at race pace and to some extent in race-like conditions. Too many distance runners do their hard days too fast and never actually run at race pace. The training specificity of running at race pace even applies to sprinters, although my impression is that most sprint programs DO take this into account. - Ed Parrot
t-and-f: Summer Boston meets.
can someone please clear something up for me? The twilight meets that have been held at Northeastern for years are going to be moved this year to Watham MA? is this correct? Are there still going to be meets at Northeastern? The way i read it, there were now going to be meets at both venues on the same nights. Doesn't this seem to be counter-productive? Are the Can AM meets still going to be at N'eastern? confused dan _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com
t-and-f: Re: t-and-f-digest V1 #3597
On 5/2/01 5:04 PM, "t-and-f-digest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > Date: Wed, 02 May 2001 09:51:51 -0700 > From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?one last post...well I guess not > >> From: Jon Entine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >> Subject: Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?one last post...I promise..:) >> >> Alan: >> >> You could say all you want that the 800 meters is not a distance event, but >> this is a matter of climes, not boxes. Physiological studies show that one >> needs to draw on your aerobic energy reserves after about 45 seconds or so. >> That makes 800 meters very much a distance race. The anatomical and >> physiological profile of every event is slightly different. Check out >> JMTanner's studies on this, or more recent ones by Robert Malina, Claude >> Bouchard, Lindsay Carter, and many others. There is quite a large gap >> between the 400 meter profile and the 800 meter profile. Period. > > And the 1500 and 800 profiles are very different as well. Coe and > Juantorena represent two examples of completely different profiles that > were essentially equally successful at 800 (and not that NEITHER is > Kenyan). Essentially, the 800 stands at the fuzzy border between distances > and sprints, with more and more sprint types moving into the event over time. Richard: Try to grasp the difference between INDIVIDUALS and GROUPS. There may be an "ideal" body type based on the AVERAGE of INDIVIDUALS, but it is not eliminate the possibility of wide variation. I don't know how many times I have to repeat this. The lack of scientific sophistication on this point is unbelievable. > >> Here is a fact: athletes of West African ancestry (African Americans in >> particular) will NEVER become great long distance runners. There might be >> some abberations, generally because of racial mixing and the roulette wheel >> of genetics, such as Johnny Gray. > > There you go again, making ABSOLUTE generalized statements that you cannot > support. What about Brazilian Roba DaSilva? Last I noticed, Roba DaSilva was not an African American or of West African ancestry. He is a mix of three different genetic ancestries, European, Asian and West African. In fact, I discussed this in an article I wrote for a Brazilian magazine that's on my web site. I'll say it again: Athletes of West African ancestry (African Americans in particular) will NEVER become great long distance runners. You may not like such statements -- and sure, there is a chance that natural human diversity will prove the absolute statement wrong...but as a GENERALIZATION, it is absolutely accurate...just as saying that it is absolutely certain that a Watusi will not be crowned world's strongest man or an Eskimo NBA MVP. IT WON'T HAPPEN, FOR ALL PRACTICAL PURPOSES. I don't say this: this is anthropology/genetics 101. >And if you are counting the > 800 as a distance event, Gray is far from an "aberration"--he is in fact > the norm! I have dealt with this before, but here goes: the 800 is on the cusp between sprints and distance events. IT is certainly not a "long distance event." >I think you need to take a look at the US 800 all time list, or > just the start of the Olympic Trials 800 this year. WHO CARES ABOUT THE US--LOOK AT THE INTERNATIONAL RESULTS. Even at the 800, ONLY 11 percent of the top times are held by runners of West African ancestry (and almost all by one man, Johnny Gray). 57 percent are held by Kenyans or other East/North Africans and 22 percent by whites. We live in a WORLD. I know you might believe that the US is the center of all things good, but try to take a broader view here. Beyond the 800 meters, THERE ARE NO BLACKS OF OVERWHELMINGLY WEST AFRICAN ANCESTRY WHO HAVE TIMES RANKED AMONG THE ELITE. NONE. ZERO. >It makes me wonder if > you have ever been to a track meet! Richard, that's your mirror talking. >African-Americans, whom I assume are > of West African origin, hold an almost dominant position in the event. And > few blacks competed in this event until James Robinson started in the > mid-1970s. We're seeing more of them in the 1500 as well now, with Holman > and Lassiter as good, but not sole, examples. There may be proportionately > FEWER great distance runners of West African descent, but that is far from > NONE, which is what you're saying. > > Richard McCann -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
t-and-f: Kenyan national track & field team gear...
Title: Kenyan national track & field team gear... Listers-- A friend has informed me that over-runs of the Kenyan national track & field team uniforms produced by Nike for the 1996-2000 teams are being sold at the Nike factory outlet store in North Bend, WA, just outside of Seattle. Here's the address, phone # fax of the Nike factory store location: Washington Factory Stores of North Bend 661 S. Fork Ave. SW #4H North Bend, WA 98045 (425) 831-7900 FAX (425) 831-7910 If you are into collecting track & field uniforms from different countries, this is a great opportunity. All the best, Paul Merca Have no financial or vested interest whatsoever!
t-and-f: 800m combinations
This 400/800 vs 800/1500 debate always seems to return. The problem is that the way it is "grouped" effects the way athletes develop. If we always pigeonhole the event as 800/1500 even through junior years we often prevent athletes doubling in the 400m. This means we stop 800 specialists valueing and developing their speed. Many Junior events the 400 is timetabled in a way that clashes with the 800 because of the way people have thought of the event. If we always though that 400/800 should be the way to go we would do the opposite. We would end up with athletes with developed speed that lack the endurance that valueing the 1500 gives. The truth about 800m is that most of todays athletes are 800 specialists - nearly all would struggle to be in a top 8 position in any major World 1500 Final and that is if they could make a final. This includes Kipketer, Schumann, Kimutai, Bucher, Tellez, Said-Guerni, Sepeng etc. - All of these athletes have speed that is superior to the Elite 1500 athletes over 400m most in the 46.0-47.5 range. Some sub45 eg Tellez possibly Kipketer. But many in the 46-. It is not true to say that they are 800/1500 type athletes and if they had always thought like that they may never have developed the level of 400m speed they have. Training for 800m is very specific and should be midway between the training emphasis that is given to the 400m and the 1500m. The problem is people have trouble defining what this means. I cringe when I see the 800m labelled in an event group as endurance with events up to the Marathon and allocated coaches from this large spectrum of events. 800m athletes training needs to have a large element of training components and methods that are straight out of sprint training methodology and this needs to be smartly combined with training that will lift the contribution from the aerobic energy system. The truth about the event is that we need to combine ideally the speed of a 44s 400m athlete if that was possible to develop with the aerobic output of a sub3:30 1500m athlete. The reality is this cannot be done but training needs to be as good a compromize as we can between these two abilities. 1500 superior athletes will stay fresh for longer and be able to have more useable speed in the latter phases of the race BUT a 400m superior runner will have tremendous ease of speed in the first lap and the strength to maintain speed for a long time after fatigue hits. I prefer to see an athlete who is slightky aerobically superior but they do not always win eg Schumann is on the 400m side of things compared to many of the other athletes in tnhe 800m final. The other thing that needs to be recognized strongly is the need to train to develop efficiency at 800m pace. This is the often forgotten factor ie deliberately training to improve race specific efficiency. More info see www.oztrack.com/plan.htm Steve Bennett Head Coach Athletics Western Sydney Academy of Sport
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...well I guess not
>From: Jon Entine <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> >Subject: Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?one last post...I promise..:) > >Alan: > >You could say all you want that the 800 meters is not a distance event, but >this is a matter of climes, not boxes. Physiological studies show that one >needs to draw on your aerobic energy reserves after about 45 seconds or so. >That makes 800 meters very much a distance race. The anatomical and >physiological profile of every event is slightly different. Check out >JMTanner's studies on this, or more recent ones by Robert Malina, Claude >Bouchard, Lindsay Carter, and many others. There is quite a large gap >between the 400 meter profile and the 800 meter profile. Period. And the 1500 and 800 profiles are very different as well. Coe and Juantorena represent two examples of completely different profiles that were essentially equally successful at 800 (and not that NEITHER is Kenyan). Essentially, the 800 stands at the fuzzy border between distances and sprints, with more and more sprint types moving into the event over time. >Here is a fact: athletes of West African ancestry (African Americans in >particular) will NEVER become great long distance runners. There might be >some abberations, generally because of racial mixing and the roulette wheel >of genetics, such as Johnny Gray. There you go again, making ABSOLUTE generalized statements that you cannot support. What about Brazilian Roba DaSilva? And if you are counting the 800 as a distance event, Gray is far from an "aberration"--he is in fact the norm! I think you need to take a look at the US 800 all time list, or just the start of the Olympic Trials 800 this year. It makes me wonder if you have ever been to a track meet! African-Americans, whom I assume are of West African origin, hold an almost dominant position in the event. And few blacks competed in this event until James Robinson started in the mid-1970s. We're seeing more of them in the 1500 as well now, with Holman and Lassiter as good, but not sole, examples. There may be proportionately FEWER great distance runners of West African descent, but that is far from NONE, which is what you're saying. Richard McCann
RE: t-and-f: info on salazar vs. rono at eugene in '82
The race was run in a downpour, with the entire first lane in water. Salazar was at the best fitness in his life. Rono was at least ten, if not fifteen pounds, overweight. The photo on the cover of TNFNEWS is a classic. Rono said after that race that at two miles he was determined to run another lap and then drop out. Each subsequent lap thereafter became "another lap". Eventually after 24 laps he finally ran "another lap" then he really dropped out. Adrian Royle (GB) finished third, 27:45 or :47. malmo > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of Geoff Thurner > Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 2:31 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: t-and-f: info on salazar vs. rono at eugene in '82 > > > > with this week's cardinal invite trying to break the u.s 10k > record, i was > wondering if anybody had any details on the salazar vs. rono race > on april > 10, 1982 when salazar ran 27:29.06 - the fastest by an american > on american > soil > > i'm not exactly sure of the meet name (maybe something like Nike 10K) or > the specifics as to who was in the meet, splits, conditions, etc., > > also, what's the fastest 10k by anyone on american soil (place, date, > affiliation, etc.)? > > the stanford sports info director called wednesday for some background on > the race and i was only in fifth grade at the time, living in northwest > indiana...and since salazar was an ex-duck then, i don't any info on the > race in our records (or a track and field news magazine account, which if > someone has, would be perfect - fax is 541/346-5419, and i'll make sure i > send you a thank-you gift to make it worth your time) > > thanks, > > g > > > > > > Geoff Thurner > Assistant Director/Publications Coordinator > University of Oregon Media Services - Athletics > Len Casanova Center > 2727 Leo Harris Parkway > Eugene, OR 97401 > > Phone: (541) 346-2250 > Fax: (541) 346-5449 > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > www.goducks.com > > GO DUCKS!! - GO DUCKS!! - GO DUCKS!! > >
RE: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
Former 10k AR holder Greg Fredericks used to do the same in college, only faster. malmo > > Craig Masback used to run 880/Mile/Mile Relay in college. Of > course, running a relay leg (other than 1st leg) does not require > learning to do a down start. > > Ed Koch > > --Original Message-- > From: Ed & Dana Parrot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > To: "'t-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail" > <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Sent: May 2, 2001 4:38:48 PM GMT > Subject: Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?one last post...I promise..:) > > > > Other than Juanto there hasn't been anyone who has had a shot > at making an > Olympic or World Championship > > final in both the 400 and 800 in the last 30 years. > > Mark Everett certainly had the potential based on his times. Jearl > Miles-Clark and Anna Quirot certainly did. How many times did > Kipketer run > an elite open 400m during his peak 2 years? How many times have the other > 800 contenders run elite open 400's? > > I do agree that the gap between the 400m and the 800m is bigger than that > between the 800m and the 1500m and the physiological reasons for that are > pretty clear. But I suspect that the huge discrepancy we see at the elite > level also has to do with the way athletes are developed, the way they > train, and the fact that mentally the 800 seems a lot closer to the 1500m > than the 400m (at least in my experience). > > As always, there's no one simple explanation, > > - Ed Parrot > > > >
t-and-f: Efficiency in t-and-f discussion
In the future, when discussing anything related to distance running, please save all of us time by sending a second copy of your message, putting ">" symbols before every line, and adding the line: ", what you write here is just not accurate and your thesis has noscientific validity." This second message should be signed "Jon Entine." This will simplify things for most readers, since the messages should appear sequentially; and will greatly ease Mr.Entine's life, as he would no longer need to read or write to the list at all, given that he has no other apparent interest in or knowledge about track and field. Advance thanks to all for their kind consideration and cooperation. david
t-and-f: NCAA Division II Rankings
The NCAA Division II Track & Field Power Rankings for May 16 are now posted at the http://www.d2rankings.com web site. -- Brian Kavanaugh Lotus/Domino R5 CLP, Development Multi-Option Systems, Inc. 11920 Burt Street, Suite 100 Omaha, NE 68154-1598 (402) 431-8000 / (800) 551-MOSI [EMAIL PROTECTED] (work) [EMAIL PROTECTED] (home) Get free email and a permanent address at http://www.netaddress.com/?N=1
Re: t-and-f: Fiasconaro
Here is Marcello Fiasconaro's biography from FIDAL (Italian federation) : Nato il 19 luglio 1949 a Città del Capo, Sud Africa; il padre era siciliano, di Castelbuono. Presenze in Nazionale: 12. Alto 1.85 per 74 kg di peso. Allenatore: Stuart Banner. Primatista mondiale degli 800 nel 1973. Sudafricano di papà italiano, proveniente dallo sport della palla ovale, fu segnalato alla FIDAL dall ex discobolo Carmelo Rado, che viveva in Sud Africa. Estroverso, gioviale, una volta in Italia si accattivò subito le simpatie generali. All inizio del 1972 stabilì anche il primato mondiale indoor dei 400 con 46.1. Fu 400ista nella prima parte della sua carriera, 800ista nella seconda parte. Nella gara in cui stabilì il mondiale degli 800, opposto ad uno dei più forti dEuropa, il cecoslovacco Jozef Plachy, fece gara di testa dal primo all ultimo metro; un record nel record. Purtroppo guai tendinei e microfratture ad un piede gli impedirono di partecipare ai Giochi Olimpici di Monaco e di ben figurare ai Campionati Europei 1974. Dopo un paio di stagioni come rugbista a Milano, è tornato per sempre in Sud Africa. Curriculum Titoli italiani : 400 1971, 1972, 1973 - 400 indoor 1972 - 800 indoor 1975 Campionati Europei : 2/1971 400, 3/1971 4 x 400, 6/1974 800, elimin. batt./1974 4 x 400 Performances 400 metri 45.49(2)Helsinki 13-8-71 (EC) 45.5 (1)Viareggio 25-7-71 45.6 (1)Formia 1-5-72 45.6 (1)Pretoria 17-3-73 45.6 (1)Potchefstroom 20-4-73 45.7 (1)Roma 8-7-71 45.8 (1)Stellenbosch 31-3-71 45.9 (1)Pretoria 3-4-71 45.9 (1)Pretoria 19-1-72 45.9 (1)Praga 21-6-72 45.9 (1)Potchefstroom 7-3-73 45.9 (1)Pretoria 6-4-73 45.9 (1)Torino 2-6-73 45.9 (1)Milano 26-6-73 Performances 800 metri 1:43.7 (1)Milano 27-6-73 1:44.7 (1)Johannesburg 27-4-73 1:45.2 (1)Potchefstroom 22-4-73 1:45.8 (2)Torino 18-7-73 1:45.9 (1)Parigi 27-5-73 1:46.1 (1)Formia 25-8-74 1:46.28 (6)Roma 4-9-74 (EC) 1:46.3 (2)Pretoria 7-4-73 1:46.3 (1)Helsinki 19-6-73 1:46.4 (2)Stellenbosch 26-3-73 Michel Saint-Raymond (National records site : http://aimeserre.multimania.com/index.html)
t-and-f: Rono/Salazar 10k
From the May 1982 Track & Field News, without permission: The cover says "Rono Outsplashes Salazar" and the meet article, listed in the contents and the head as "Salazar's 10k," is headlined "Rono Captures a Real Barnburner." Salazar organized the race to be run after the Oregon-LSU men's dual to draw additional attendance. Salazar sasid beforehand that he intended to press the pace as necessary, and that it would take at least 27:50, maybe low 27:40's, to win. Salazar took the lead just after the mile and held it until just before the bell. Mile splits (it was still a 440 track at the time) were 4:27.1 (Rono), 8:52.4, 13:16.9, 17:41.5, 22:10.7, and 26:36.2. Side-by-side for the last 120m; final lap was 62.6. Results: Rono 27:29.90 (x,4 W); Salazar 27:30.00 (4,5 W) (2,2 A); 3. Royle 27:47.16; 4.Dillon 28:05.75; 5.Nyambui 28:07.69; 6.Musyoki 28:13.86; 7.Clary 28:13.98; 8.Buhmann 28:15.52... It is clear in the cover photo and a picture in the article from the starting line that Rono was at least 10 lbs overweight. He is quoted as saying that he was only about 70% fitness, and that he was just trying to hang on to Salazar for as long as possible. Salazar said afterwards that it was just a matter of time until he got the world record, and that he still had a lot of years ahead of him. This was a US all-comers record, which I think stood until the 1990 Goodwill Games in Seattle. That record was broken in Knoxville in 1995 when Williams set his PR of 27:31 while finishing third behind two Kenyans with the winner in 27:25.xx. It is still the fastest time ever run by an American on US soil. david
t-and-f: More regionals stuff
List, This was an original personal message I sent Buck regarding the regionals concept. He suggested I forward this to the list. Please keep in mind that it was meant as a personal message first and foremost before hammering me. It's a bit opinionated, but here you go. That large target you'll see walking around the track Friday watching Meb set the US all comers record at Stanford will be me. Take your best shot...Joe Buck wrote: You aught to post this to the list Joe. I have rarely read truer words...I stay in the sport because I love to compete and I think the same is true for a lot of runners. This recent idea of 'cooperating' in a race to achieve a fast time is killing the sport. As you say, the fans certainlynotice what's missing. -Buck -Original Message- From: Joe Rubio <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: Buck Jones <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Date: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 10:49 AM Subject: Re: t-and-f: Let's do regionals... Buck, I think it was Bill Veeck who said you have to give fans the feeling they're missing something if they don't see your event. Not seeing people run for places is missing something. Big reason why things like Penn or the California HS state meet are popular, mano y mano competition. Hell, main reason I stuck around Arcadia after working all day from 7:00 am was to see one thing. Hall and Webb. Give fans a race and they'll watch in droves. Have them watch time trials with little at stake except seeing Marion run alone for 300m and you get what we have now. A bunch of pampered post collegiate athletes who think the only way to run fast is to have everything setup for them. Rabbits, great weather, great track etc. all for a damn 3:47! Gone are the days of guys banging heads at places like Modesto because they wanted to race the fastest SOB around and beat him. Now guys are content to get their time and be happy. Nobody knows how to win, only time trial. If we didn't have the Can Am, we would have absolutely nothing. Time trials are fine, but the sport is about me beating you. That's what get's people fired up. Put it this way, do you know what the track record is at Daytona? Probably not, nor do you care, nor is that the focus of the race. It's who WINS Stay cool. 6 weeks until 19th street cafe. Best of luck with the training/racing and get that damn 3:41.7. Of course it should be a byproduct of trying to win your race...Joe Buck Jones wrote: > > You wrote: > A bunch of good stuff followed by: > Nice idea Buck. See ya in > Eugene...Joe > > Thanks, Joe. > You definitely see the issue the same way I do. I really think it would be > good for T&F in the U.S. to have more competition for the sub-elite. > I also think that there would be excitement generated by meets where the top > X finishers qualify for the National meet. I think that's a big reason for > the popularity of the Oly Trials. > One thing I still think should happen that is different than your proposals > is to scatter the meets over different weekends, as well as different > places. Let anyone go to any of the meets that they want. That would deal > with a lot of the scheduling and travel cost problems that people bring up, > and would also deal with the issue of 'fair' regions - that would be moot. > Just take the top three from each meet, and if someone was top three from an > earlier meet, go that much deeper in the next meet if one of those > individuals places top three again. > See you in Bluejean :-) I already have my tickets, so I'm going to be > there - qualified or not. > Cheers, > Buck
RE: t-and-f: Stanford 10k and Not Just Kennedy
UGGH ... I didn't mean that Kennedy was a shoe-in to win. I was just making conversation ... really. Culpepper, Keflizeghi, Abdirahman, Kennedy, and even Rogers all have close PR's ... They are all around 27:40 (except Rogers) ... and they all ran World XC (except Culpepper) ... so they are all FIT. Good luck to all of them!! -Original Message- From: Ryan Grote [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 3:47 PM To: T&F List Subject: t-and-f: Stanford 10k and Not Just Kennedy There are other people in the field...other Americans even. Everybody always seems to forget about Meb Keflezighi. He was rarely a favorite to win the NCAA titles he won. Kind of a surprise to people when he won the trials. Not the guy everybody talked about before x-c nationals in February. He is very tough to beat when ready. Sure, Kennedy beat him by a spot at world x-c... Grote adiRP/MMRD
RE: t-and-f: info on salazar vs. rono at eugene in '82
Kennedy is the only one who has said publicly that he will go for the record. He also has said that his form is the best it has been since '98. He also ran 27:38 in his first race at the distance. Would it be outlandish to assume he will step it up a little from 2 years ago? Abdi and Rogers and Culpepper have also run sub-28:00 by this date in previous years. A small bunch of guys under 27:40 is possible. Lots of indications point to that. -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Wednesday, May 02, 2001 3:57 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: Re: t-and-f: info on salazar vs. rono at eugene in '82 As much as I'd like to see this happen I can't see any American running 27:20 this weekend. That would mean that whoever it is in 13:05-13:10 shape and there's little evidence of that. For the Americans it'll probably go in the low 27:40's down to mid 27:30's if conditions are ok. Let's hope for a group of Americans right there at the finish. Steve S.
Re: t-and-f: info on salazar vs. rono at eugene in '82
As much as I'd like to see this happen I can't see any American running 27:20 this weekend. That would mean that whoever it is in 13:05-13:10 shape and there's little evidence of that. For the Americans it'll probably go in the low 27:40's down to mid 27:30's if conditions are ok. Let's hope for a group of Americans right there at the finish. Steve S.
t-and-f: Stanford 10k and Not Just Kennedy
There are other people in the field...other Americans even. Everybody always seems to forget about Meb Keflezighi. He was rarely a favorite to win the NCAA titles he won. Kind of a surprise to people when he won the trials. Not the guy everybody talked about before x-c nationals in February. He is very tough to beat when ready. Sure, Kennedy beat him by a spot at world x-c... Grote adiRP/MMRD
Re: t-and-f: Stanford 10k and Not Just Kennedy
Thanks, my thoughts exactly! After reading this list for the recent past, I wonder why Kennedy would even show up for the race when he knows that Africans will be there also. Culpepper could be ready. John Ryan Grote wrote: There are other people in the field...other Americans even.Everybody always seems to forget about Meb Keflezighi. He was rarely a favorite to win the NCAA titles he won. Kind of a surprise to people when he won the trials. Not the guy everybody talked about before x-c nationals in February. He is very tough to beat when ready. Sure, Kennedy beat him by a spot at world x-c... GroteadiRP/MMRD
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
Craig Masback used to run 880/Mile/Mile Relay in college. Of course, running a relay leg (other than 1st leg) does not require learning to do a down start. Ed Koch --Original Message-- From: Ed & Dana Parrot <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "'t-and-f@darkwing. uoregon. edu' (E-mail" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> Sent: May 2, 2001 4:38:48 PM GMT Subject: Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?one last post...I promise..:) > Other than Juanto there hasn't been anyone who has had a shot at making an Olympic or World Championship > final in both the 400 and 800 in the last 30 years. Mark Everett certainly had the potential based on his times. Jearl Miles-Clark and Anna Quirot certainly did. How many times did Kipketer run an elite open 400m during his peak 2 years? How many times have the other 800 contenders run elite open 400's? I do agree that the gap between the 400m and the 800m is bigger than that between the 800m and the 1500m and the physiological reasons for that are pretty clear. But I suspect that the huge discrepancy we see at the elite level also has to do with the way athletes are developed, the way they train, and the fact that mentally the 800 seems a lot closer to the 1500m than the 400m (at least in my experience). As always, there's no one simple explanation, - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
Indeed, Marcello Fiasconaro was an interesting runner. Born 1949 in South Africa as son to an Italian soldier who had been deatined in RSA during WW II. Was a rugby player who took up 400 to improve his speed in the winter 1970-71. His third race landed at 46.5! Held an Italian passport and went to Italy to compete internationally. Ran 45.5 in 1971, missed the EurCh gold to Dave Jenkins with a few hundreths and was ranked No 7 by TFN. Ran 45.6 in 1972 but missed the OG (injury, I think). Went to 800 in 1973 and broke the WR with 1:43.7 at a race in Milano on June 27. (He led himself all the way with 51.2 at 400). Ranked No. 3 by TFN (behind Rick Wohlhuter (who had WR'd the 880 in 1:44.6) and South Africa's Danie Malan). In 1974 he was a favorite to win the EurCh 800 in Rome. However he was not in super shape. (1:46.1 before the Champs) He tried to make pace with 50.1 at 400. At 600 he was passed by Yugoslavia's that year super good Luciano Susanj. Susanj went on to win with 1:44.07 (then #4 World AT), while Fiasconaro faded to 6th with 1:46.3. It was a close race behind Susanj. The silver went to the 19 year old Steve Ovett with 1:45.8 (I only have the 1/100 for Susanj) and 8th place was clocked at 1:46.3! (That was Willi Wulbeck - World Champion 9 years later in Helsinki!) After that Fiasconaro had injury problems and never returned to top shape. But he was an interesting runner, a tough front runner at both 400 (if possible at that distance) and 800. Somebody who reads this might have more info on Fiasconaro then me, with my Swedish perspective. Mats Åkerlind "Wayne T. Armbrust" wrote: > "P.F.Talbot" wrote: > > > Juantorena aside, if you look at the 800 as an event, the 800/1500m types > > come out on top of the 400/800m types. Other than Juanto there hasn't > > been anyone who has had a shot at making an Olympic or World Championship > > final in both the 400 and 800 in the last 30 years. > > What about Fiascanaro (sp?) from South Africa who ran for Italy while South > Africa was suspended from the IAAF? He was very good in both a few years > before Juantorena started running the 800. > > -- > Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Computomarx > 3604 Grant Ct. > Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA > (573) 445-6675 (voice & FAX) > http://www.Computomarx.com > "Know the difference between right and wrong... > Always give your best effort... > Treat others the way you'd like to be treated..." > - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
Re: t-and-f: info on salazar vs. rono at eugene in '82
> Wouldn't it be great if Kennedy could set the all-comer's mark and the AR in > one night! Wishful thinking ... > Wishful thinking given that Kennedy might not win! - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Re:Fiasconaro
If memory serves me correct - Fiasconaro ran for Italy after South Africa was banned from International competition. Steve S
t-and-f: info on salazar vs. rono at eugene in '82
<<< I'm not exactly sure of the meet name (maybe something like Nike 10K) or the specifics as to who was in the meet, splits, conditions, etc., also, what's the fastest 10k by anyone on American soil (place, date, affiliation, etc.)? >>> * I believe Adrian Royle was third in 27:47.0 ... I think the race split evenly ... like 13:47/13:42 * I bet somebody on the list was there and could tell you more. * The fastest-ever on U.S. soil has to be Geb's 27:07.xx from Atlanta .. that's an easy one. Wouldn't it be great if Kennedy could set the all-comer's mark and the AR in one night! Wishful thinking ... -Brian
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
>Actually, Kipketer ran a 400 open a few years ago and ran 48-something. >Certainly not his best, but it shows he doesn't have the leg speed to run >the 400. He can though break 4:00 in the mile > I think if the best 800 guys ran the 400 we would see a few 45s, a bunch > of 46s and a whole lot of 47s. Many cannot break 48. For instance Marko > Koers who I've seen run the 400 open several times hasn't broken 48 that I > know of. I would guess he might hit 47.8 at the very best. There may be > a couple of exceptions like Mark Everett. I HIGHLY doubt that someone who can split 49.9 and not blow up entirely, as many of the top 800m runners can, is not capable of running close to 46 seconds. Maybe they haven't done it because they rarely run it, mentally it is different, and they don't train for the 400m. But it seems obvious that most of them could. Since we are talking about potential rather than actual performances, we will never get an asnwer to this. And assuming that Kipketer could run 4:00 for the mile, that's roughly equivalent to a 46.5 second 400m, something which plenty of 800m runners could do, likely including Kipketer if he tried it a few times. As for MJ, it is only logical to conclude that because he dominates the 400m so completely, he could be competitive on the world level. Would he break 1:40 - who knows? Would he break 1:45? Of course he would. I agree with the basic premise that the 800m is closer to the 1500m than it is to the 400m, but I don't think that being able to run a good 1500m is required for a good 800m. I didn't see El G. or Morceli breaking 1:42, either. - Ed Parrot
t-and-f: Candidates for IAAF presidency
Uri Goldburt wondered why Prof. Arne Ljungqvist does not run for the IAAF presidency. My guess is that he just doesn't think that it's worth it. Arne recently turned 70. In May he'll step down as president of the Swedish Sports Federation (the main organization for all sports in the country) and I believe that he thinks that he should slowly ease down. Continue for a few more years, but not stepping up the pace. This is only my guess, but I think that it's quite near the truth. Arne Ljungqvist is a man who enjoys life a lot and who does not want a job if he's not 110% sure that he'll be able to bring all his best into it. And - being 70 years old, it might be worth taking the time to smell the roses as well... Mats Åkerlind
t-and-f: Re:Fiasconaro
Title: Re:Fiasconaro I was digging myself in my olympics database and I also found that Marcello Fiasconaro Born:07/19/1949 Height:185 Birth_place:Cape Town also had an entry for Italy in 400m heat 3 , but did never show up to start Tomas Magnusson -Original Message- From: Wayne T. Armbrust [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: 02 May 2001 19:53 To: P.F.Talbot Cc: T-AND-F Subject: t-and-f: Fiasconaro "P.F.Talbot" wrote: > Wayne, > > I've never heard of this guy. Do you know what times he ran or where I > could find out? As an ex-800m guy I'm always curious about people in the > event. > > Paul > I had to do some digging for this through my old T&FNs. From the January 1974 issue which was the 1973 World Rankings issue: For 1973 Marcello Fiasconaro was credited with 45.6 (tied for 11th on the world list, honorable mention in the rankings) and 1:43.7 (1st on the world list, ranked third after Wohlhuter and Dannie Malan of S. Africa). -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx(tm) 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice & FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com "Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated..." - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
t-and-f: Interviews with WAVA candidates Harvey, Blair
Greetings, all Incumbent Jim Blair and challenger Rex Harvey are the only announced candidates for the office of vice president (stadia) in the World Association of Veteran Athletes. The election is July 11, 2001, at the World Veterans Athletic Championships in Brisbane, Australia. The Blair-Harvey race is the only contested election on the General Assembly's agenda, since all other WAVA Council members, including WAVA President Torsten Carlius, are running unopposed for this, their second and final term for office. In early April, I sent e-mail questionaires to both Blair and Harvey, saying in part: As the overseer of the World Veterans Athletic Championships, the vice president is crucial to the meet’s success. This may be the most important office in WAVA after the presidency. Thus I think it’s important for veteran athletes -- and especially the WAVA delegates who will vote -- to know about the stands and plans of the candidates. . . . As webmaster of the Masters Track and Field Home Page, I try to inform a worldwide masters viewership, and your contest seems worthy of attention and exploration. . . . This also is a good way to educate people about WAVA. So I’m submitting some questions to both of you -- with the intention of posting your answers on my Web site. Jim Blair responded with this: http://www.masterstrack.com/news2001/WAVAblair.html Rex Harvey responded with this: http://www.masterstrack.com/news2001/WAVAharvey.html Judge for yourself. Your comments are always welcome. Ken Stone http://www.masterstrack.com
t-and-f: info on salazar vs. rono at eugene in '82
with this week's cardinal invite trying to break the u.s 10k record, i was wondering if anybody had any details on the salazar vs. rono race on april 10, 1982 when salazar ran 27:29.06 - the fastest by an american on american soil i'm not exactly sure of the meet name (maybe something like Nike 10K) or the specifics as to who was in the meet, splits, conditions, etc., also, what's the fastest 10k by anyone on american soil (place, date, affiliation, etc.)? the stanford sports info director called wednesday for some background on the race and i was only in fifth grade at the time, living in northwest indiana...and since salazar was an ex-duck then, i don't any info on the race in our records (or a track and field news magazine account, which if someone has, would be perfect - fax is 541/346-5419, and i'll make sure i send you a thank-you gift to make it worth your time) thanks, g Geoff Thurner Assistant Director/Publications Coordinator University of Oregon Media Services - Athletics Len Casanova Center 2727 Leo Harris Parkway Eugene, OR 97401 Phone: (541) 346-2250 Fax: (541) 346-5449 [EMAIL PROTECTED] www.goducks.com GO DUCKS!! - GO DUCKS!! - GO DUCKS!!
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
Seb Coe split 45.xx on 4x4 relay, and Borzakovski has run 45.84 last summer as preparation for Sydney. Bucher has run 46.32. None of them trained specifically for 400 as far as I know. Oleg > On Wed, 2 May 2001, Ed & Dana Parrot wrote: > > Mark Everett certainly had the potential based on his times. Jearl > > Miles-Clark and Anna Quirot certainly did. How many times did Kipketer run > > an elite open 400m during his peak 2 years? How many times have the other > > 800 contenders run elite open 400's? > > Actually, Kipketer ran a 400 open a few years ago and ran 48-something. > Certainly not his best, but it shows he doesn't have the leg speed to run > the 400. He can though break 4:00 in the mile. > > I think if the best 800 guys ran the 400 we would see a few 45s, a bunch > of 46s and a whole lot of 47s. Many cannot break 48. For instance Marko > Koers who I've seen run the 400 open several times hasn't broken 48 that I > know of. I would guess he might hit 47.8 at the very best. There may be > a couple of exceptions like Mark Everett. > > As an aside, Juantorena ran 3:42 for the 1500 indicating he had some > endurance. 3:45 is probably close to the slow end for any sub-1:45 800m > guy. Do the Michael-Johnson-could-be-the-greatest-800m-guy-of-all-time > crowd really think he is capable of such a time at 1500? If he's not he's > probably also not capable of a world-class 800. > > Paul > > > >
t-and-f: Fiasconaro
"P.F.Talbot" wrote: > Wayne, > > I've never heard of this guy. Do you know what times he ran or where I > could find out? As an ex-800m guy I'm always curious about people in the > event. > > Paul > I had to do some digging for this through my old T&FNs. From the January 1974 issue which was the 1973 World Rankings issue: For 1973 Marcello Fiasconaro was credited with 45.6 (tied for 11th on the world list, honorable mention in the rankings) and 1:43.7 (1st on the world list, ranked third after Wohlhuter and Dannie Malan of S. Africa). -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice & FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com "Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated..." - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
On Wed, 2 May 2001, Ed & Dana Parrot wrote: > Mark Everett certainly had the potential based on his times. Jearl > Miles-Clark and Anna Quirot certainly did. How many times did Kipketer run > an elite open 400m during his peak 2 years? How many times have the other > 800 contenders run elite open 400's? Actually, Kipketer ran a 400 open a few years ago and ran 48-something. Certainly not his best, but it shows he doesn't have the leg speed to run the 400. He can though break 4:00 in the mile. I think if the best 800 guys ran the 400 we would see a few 45s, a bunch of 46s and a whole lot of 47s. Many cannot break 48. For instance Marko Koers who I've seen run the 400 open several times hasn't broken 48 that I know of. I would guess he might hit 47.8 at the very best. There may be a couple of exceptions like Mark Everett. As an aside, Juantorena ran 3:42 for the 1500 indicating he had some endurance. 3:45 is probably close to the slow end for any sub-1:45 800m guy. Do the Michael-Johnson-could-be-the-greatest-800m-guy-of-all-time crowd really think he is capable of such a time at 1500? If he's not he's probably also not capable of a world-class 800. Paul
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
"P.F.Talbot" wrote: > Juantorena aside, if you look at the 800 as an event, the 800/1500m types > come out on top of the 400/800m types. Other than Juanto there hasn't > been anyone who has had a shot at making an Olympic or World Championship > final in both the 400 and 800 in the last 30 years. What about Fiascanaro (sp?) from South Africa who ran for Italy while South Africa was suspended from the IAAF? He was very good in both a few years before Juantorena started running the 800. -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice & FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com "Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated..." - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
> Other than Juanto there hasn't been anyone who has had a shot at making an Olympic or World Championship > final in both the 400 and 800 in the last 30 years. Mark Everett certainly had the potential based on his times. Jearl Miles-Clark and Anna Quirot certainly did. How many times did Kipketer run an elite open 400m during his peak 2 years? How many times have the other 800 contenders run elite open 400's? I do agree that the gap between the 400m and the 800m is bigger than that between the 800m and the 1500m and the physiological reasons for that are pretty clear. But I suspect that the huge discrepancy we see at the elite level also has to do with the way athletes are developed, the way they train, and the fact that mentally the 800 seems a lot closer to the 1500m than the 400m (at least in my experience). As always, there's no one simple explanation, - Ed Parrot
Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
Athletes are not pigeons. Kenyans in particular have shown an amazing virtuosity across a range of endurance distances. n 5/3/01 7:47 AM, "Bruce Glikin" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote: > > "There is quite a large gap > between the 400 meter profile and the 800 meter profile. Period." > > -- > Jon Entine > > > Which profile would you pigeonhole Alberto Juantorena? Question mark. Or > exclamation point? > > > > > -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
RE: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
Juantorena aside, if you look at the 800 as an event, the 800/1500m types come out on top of the 400/800m types. Other than Juanto there hasn't been anyone who has had a shot at making an Olympic or World Championship final in both the 400 and 800 in the last 30 years. There are those who could make both however (Coe, Cram, Ovett, Auotia, Koers, Morceli and a few others). Koers is an intersting case. He's not a top tier guy (3:33.0, 1:44.0) but was 6th in the 96 games and has at least made the WC semi-final if not final. There are a bunch of guys out there with similar marks. BTW, check out Juantorena's description of his base training in Sandrock's "Running with the Legends." You might be shocked. Regards, Paul On Thu, 3 May 2001, Bruce Glikin wrote: > > "There is quite a large gap > between the 400 meter profile and the 800 meter profile. Period." > > -- > Jon Entine > > > Which profile would you pigeonhole Alberto Juantorena? Question mark. Or > exclamation point? > > > > > > *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
RE: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
Oleg's point reminds me of the argument made by Tony Benson in Run With the Best that Kenyan success has a lot to do with the issue of basic speed. The argument is that guys who have enough speed to be competitive at say, the 1500m in most places are beat out by guys with even more speed and they move up to the 5000 displacing guys with "normal" 5,000m speed who move up to the 10,000 to be competitive thus pushing those guys to the marathon. As a result you have people with better basic speed at all distances than their competitors. Benson argues that our 800m guys should be running the 1500 and our 1500 guys should be running the 5,000 and 10,000 and our distance track guys should be running the marathon. It's an interesting argument but doesn't resolve our debate since basic speed is largely a genetically predetermined thing. It could be that Rift Valley people are naturally a bunch of mediocre 400m types with some aerobic ability who started racing longer. Regards, Paul On Wed, 2 May 2001, Oleg Shpyrko wrote: > Those who are convinced that 800m is a slow-twitch fiber event, let's > go one step further. A fact that is often overlooked by many people is that > kenyans actually make fairly decent 400m runners. There has been quite > a few kenyans who have been ranked in top 10 in that event - and overall > kenyans have been more successful than any other african country, including > fast-twitch, west-african Nigeria and Uganda. > > Here are some kenyans who made the top 10 ranking over the years: > '65: Kiprugut (8th) > '67: Rudisha (5th) > '69: Asati (3rd) > '70: Asati (2nd) > '72: Sang (5th), Asati (7th) > '74: Asati (10th) > '75: Chepkwony (5th) > '80: Konchellah (5th) > '87: David Kitur (8th) > '92: Samson Kitur (4th) > '93: Samson Kitur (5th), Ochien (10th) > '94: Samson Kitur (5th) > '95: Samson Kitur (5th) > > Sang got bronze medal at 72 Olympics, and Kitur (the Samson one) got bronze > in 92. > > Now, that's more than the REST of the Africa could place > in top 10 over the same period - the other africans to make top 10 were: > Kamoga (Uganda), Bada, Egbunike, Uti (all three Nigeria), one ethiopian and > one south african, who are actually from "slow-twitch" countries as well. > > And yet another thing that seems out of order is disproportionate number of > poles in the rankings - could be that western african genes have found it's > way to Poland (but not to it's neighbours - Belorus, Ukraine, Germany, > Lithuania, Slovenia or Czech republic). The fast-twitch running gene was > also "lost" for 9.3 million Polish-Americans - polish immigrants currently > living in US (Poland has about 38 million people). > > Back to Kenya. > At World Championships Kenya also finished 5th in 4x400 relay in 1991 > (Morocco was 7th that year), took silver behind US in 1993. > South Africa finished 5th in 1997 and 4th in 1999. > > Do those slow-twitch fibers help kenyans in 400m as well? > > Kip Keino keeps saying in his interviews that he thinks too many kenyan > runners who have potential to be great sprinters follow the stereotype > of "Kenyans - distance, West Africans - sprints" and move up instead of > achieving their potential at their best event - and that similar thing > happens in reverse when other runners are "afraid" of kenyans dominating > distance events. > > Is he right? > > Oleg. > > > > -Original Message- > From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] > [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of alan tobin > Sent: Tuesday, May 01, 2001 7:20 PM > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED]; > [EMAIL PROTECTED] > Subject: Re: t-and-f: Follow the money?one last post...I promise..:) > > > >...than 60 percent of all top distance > >races, from the 800 meters to the marathon. > > The 800m is not a distance race...repeat, the 800m is not a distance race. > Most if not all 800m runners can be/are great 400m runners. In the 800m you > see African Americans excel: Johnny Gray, South Americans excel: Joaquim > Cruz, and Kenyans excel: Wilson Kipketer. You say East/North Africans have a > lot of slow twitch fibers right? Then why are they so well in the 800m, a > race that requires a lot of speed and fast twitch fibers. Could it be 'gasp' > that the Kenyans vary just as much as everyone else? I believe our best 800m > runners are running the 400m right now, but have no desire to run 800s > because they would tarnish their appeal. If MJ developed any sort of aerobic > base at all he would demolish the AR and give Joe-Kenyan a run for his > money. > > Alan > _ > Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com > > *** Paul Talbot Department of Geography/ Institute of Behavioral Science University of Colorado, Boulder Boulder CO 80309-0260 (303) 492-3248 [EMAIL PROTECTED]
Re: t-and-f: Let's do regionals...
Buck, Very nice idea, just what the ER doctor with T&F on the operating table needed. Maybe something that can make this easier to accomplish in the short term is each discipline organizing their own qualifying meets. For instance have the LDR take the 800, 1500, steeple, 5k and 10k and try stagging 2-4 qualifying meets the same weekend in different regions. Maybe go the first weekend in June since meets are very difficult to find that weekend because of DI's. We now have the new Fila meet that weekend and I can't speak for Mike Scott, but I'm sure he could convince the staff at Can Am to stage a distance meet that weekend. There's the Seattle meet around that time as well. If we need 4 meets, get someone in the South to step up and that would be a start. You compete based on the location of your association (ie all west coast associations compete at the Fila meet 6/2). Maybe not entirely fair, but neither are the league setups in the NBA, NFL and MLB. It addresses the exact issue many of us are concerned with, namely how do we keep the 1:52/8:58/3:45/14:12 guys going such that they stick with it and possibly make the big breakthrough. I know that last years times were very, very tough and you had to be more than pretty good to even have a prayer. This concept would have been perfect for all the 3:42-45 guys in the land. It also gives the clubs a boost by providing a distinct goal and reason for being by providing coaching, travel and equipment for these athletes training specifically for these types of meets. It also gives the athletes an added reason to join the club system specifically for the possibility to compete at Nationals and have a shot at realizing their dream. If the idea works for distances, then propose it to the vault people and have them organize their own qualifying meets, same for the throws, same for the sprints and walks and the jumps. Each discipline takes THEIR event, markets the meet to a specific niche and is responsible for sponsorship, staging of the event, standards, etc. Really would allow each event to shine and act as a lightning rod for development...let USATF worry about staging nationals, let each development committee worry about the regionals. You know we don't always have to have all events at each meet. The Vault Summit does just fine without the other events interupting. Let each discipline decide where the best locations are for the qualifying standards for their specific events and then have all the meets on the same weekend with the same goal. Heck, the distance guys probably wouldn't like to run a 10k at Hartnell College in the wind, but I can name more than a few throwers who would love a chance to do it. Who knows, it might actually work? Nice idea Buck. See ya in Eugene...Joe Buck Jones wrote: > > Hi All, > > Here's an idea that's a lot better than the one I floated about track > pursuit races :-) > > To qualify for the U.S. National Meet, let's switch to a system of open, > regional qualifying meets, similar but not quite the same as what the NCAA > is doing. I envision an 'A' standard right at the Olympic standard that > gets you in automatically, but the rest of the qualifiers from regional > meets (they don't have to all be on the same weekend, however). I would > make six meets qualifiers, taking the top two or three, depending on the > event - bumping down to lower places for people already qualified. That > would be 12 or 18, with the rest coming from qualifiers. > > A big advantage would be a middle level of competition for post-collegiate > athletes that is seriously lacking in this country. E.g. there are a LOT of > 3:45 1500m runners that really don't have any reason to train right now. A > bunch of them might be able to improve over the years if they just stick > with it. Here be-ith a reason. > > Another advantage would be to stimulate competition in a number of regional > meets. E.g. if Mt. Sac wants to be a regional meet, that would certainly > raise my interest. > > Unfortunately, I expect locations for these meets might be a problem. I > start thinking of where I'd like to see meets, and I think of Seattle, > Eugene, and Stanford (or Sacremento) as the first three - OK, I'm a distance > runner :-) That's a bit West biased. Other places that seem natural - > Boston, St. Louis, Knoxville, Boise, Austin, Baton Rouge, Atlanta (gotta' > have something in the South for the sprinters), Indianapolis, Durham.. and > otheres. Unfortunately, that's too many meets, and I still didn't cover the > country very evenly. Still, I think it's an idea with legs. We should run > with it. We should overcome the hurdles... AAGGGH! I've got Garry > Hill disease! > > Anyway... > > Another difficulty may be finding venues capable of hosting a complete meet > with every event. Oh wait! Colleges and high schools do that every week, > how silly... > > Another problem might be the disparity between the number of spri
RE: t-and-f: Follow the money?....one last post...I promise..:)
"There is quite a large gap between the 400 meter profile and the 800 meter profile. Period." -- Jon Entine Which profile would you pigeonhole Alberto Juantorena? Question mark. Or exclamation point?
t-and-f: Athletics-Francis withdraws as candidate for IAAF President
http://sports.yahoo.com/m/sa/news/reuters/20010502/reu-iaaf.html
t-and-f: Re: t-and-f-digest V1 #3595
> Date: Tue, 01 May 2001 11:04:33 -0700 > From: Richard McCann <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> > Subject: RE: t-and-f: Follow the money? > > > I've stated earlier that I think that genetics probably has an influence > that creates a greater propensity for African success, but it is NOT due to > a difference in the AVERAGE makeup in the population. It is due to a wider > DISPERSION of genetic characteristics in the African population which means > that there is a greater probability of an individual having outlier > characteristics necessary for elite performances. Recent studies comparing > genetic material from around the world confirms that Africans show much > greater variety than the rest of the world combined. Richard, what you write here is just not accurate and your thesis has no scientific validity. There is no such concept as "genetic characteristics." There are phenotypic characteristics, which may or may not have a genetic component. Africans in general have the longest genetic history (the Continent appears to be the home of modern humanity), which is the result of more time to accumulate genetic mutations. However, genetic diversity DOES NOT TRANSLATE INTO PHENOTYPIC DIVERSITY. If it did, then we would find some great gorilla marathoners, since simians are a lot more genetically diverse than modern man. Having more genetic diversity means ONE thing -- it's a marker of "time of evolution." As it stands, Africans are not more diverse from a phenotypic perspective than other populations and in some key ways they are LESS diverse. That is because, curiously, pockets of African populations are quite insular. In fact, West Africa was historically one of the most insular populations, eventually cut off from the north by the Sahara desert which formed a few thousand years BC (after being a relatively fertile savannah), the mountains of the East and the ocean to the West. West Africa is the most distinct and homogeneous mega-populations on earth as every geneticist will tell you. Just check for instance the charts on genetic diversity in Cavalli-Sforza's "The History and Geography of Genes." But this is genetics 101. So in fact, the truth is just the opposite: the distinctive body type and physiology of the largest African population is a result of its insularity and homogeneity, not its dispersion. This is also discussed, with bibliographic footnotes, in "Taboo." > > Nevertheless, you have to MOTIVATE those individuals to compete. Given the > relative income differences, African athletes have a much greater > motivation to compete in track and field than Americans who have not only > athletic endeavors but run of the mill jobs that earn more with greater > stability of income. > > > Richard McCann > > -- -- Jon Entine RuffRun 6178 Grey Rock Rd. Agoura Hills, CA 91301 (818) 991-9803 [FAX] 991-9804 http://www.jonentine.com
Re: t-and-f: Lets Do Regionals, But Don't Tell Anyone
I'll tell everyone what we are doing with the Greater Boston Track Club. We have committed to trying to win the USATF New England men's and women's club championship and going on to Indianapolis to win the national club championships. Of course I don't know that winning is possible but what we are supposed to do is to try to win. So we have already booked hotel rooms and are discussing the order of relay legs. We also have to hustle up the money to pay for this adventure. We have sent runners to Mt Sac, Sea Ray, Duke, Penn Relays. An interesting observation from reactions of my post collegiate runners goes like this, "Oh, New England Championships, what are the qualifying times? What are they for the (club) nationals." From this reaction I get the feeling that if there were qualifying marks to achieve many more athletes would adopt these as their goals as they did in college. That would boost the numbers of striving athletes and the size and consistency of training groups. To say that you must make a qualifying performance or win your association championships to get into the nationals would fill each association championship with the drama of an Olympic Trials. The athlete ponders, "Can I qualify for the New England Champs, can I make it to Nationals...hmmm, I think soI'm going to give it a shot." Somebody tell Bill Roe. Tom Derderian, GBTC I do know that current USATF president Bill Roe believes strongly > in building clubs as a way to improve all aspects of track & field except > perhaps the Olympian level. The club championships are one step towards > this, but I'd much prefer to see the effort go towards building local meets > where clubs can compete. I continue to be amazed at how we fail to grasp > that the top-down approach is unlikely to address our development and > competition opportunity issues. > > Someone once said that all politics is local, and I think that all > development is local as well. > > - Ed Parrot >
Re: t-and-f: Population differences in Europe
My 0.02 euros on this discussion: I originally thought this discussion would be interesting and offer new insights, now that Mr. Entine is here to defend his claims personally. The discussion has turned out to be anything but. Nowhere do I see the faintest indication that Mr. Entine is aware of the distinction between correlation and causation. Nor have I seen any evidence of that all-important distinction between science and pseudo-science: the search for physical mechanisms to explain any correlations. (I am not saying Mr. Entine is ignorant of these principles, but if he isn't, he has managed to hide that fact remarkably well). Also the selective use of statistics irks me. Statistics are invaluable for science, but selective statistics are the hallmark of pseudo-science. Especially the double standards being applied here: when Africans statistically dominate an event it's proof of genetic superiority; when non-Africans statistically dominate an event there must be socio-economic and environmental factors at play. Finally I would like to see a little more effort put into taking socio-economic effects seriously, instead of setting them up as straw men arguments or sweeping them under the carpet. My personal experience (based on 15 years living in Africa, 13 in Europe) is that socio-economic factors are so strong, that while they do not rule out effects due to genetic differences, are overwhelmingly important in determining differences in sports performances among populations. So when I see an argument that handwaves away socio-economic factors as being essentially irrelevant I find it difficult to take that argument seriously. To my mind it would be tremendously difficult, though not necessarily impossible, to account for and eliminate environmental and socio-economic factors, so that the role of purely genetic factors can be demonstrated. Cheers, Elliott - Original Message - From: "Jon Entine" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> To: "t-and-f-digest" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>; "Track and Field List"
Re: t-and-f: IAAF: Four candidates for IAAF presidency
One would expect Professor Arne Liungquist to become one of the main contenders for IAFF president? UG - Quoting Wilmar Kortleever <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>: > Hello, > the reactions vary from 'surprising Diack actually got competition', > to > 'Francis is the main contender' and 'how nice olympic champions like > Juantorena en Bubka are candidates for high positions'. > > Anyway, > Courtesy IAAF, > Wilmar Kortleever > > > IAAF PRESS RELEASE > CANDIDATURES FOR CONGRESS ELECTIONS > 1 May 2001 > > MONACO - Monte-Carlo - The IAAF Congress will be held in Edmonton on 1 > and 2 August, just prior to the 8th IAAF World Championships in > Athletics. Although not normally an election Congress, on this > occasion > an election must be held to select a new IAAF President to replace the > late Primo Nebiolo, who passed away on 7 November 1999. > > If the new President is an incumbent Council member or Vice President, > Congress will also need to elect replacements for these posts. The > deadline for candidatures was midnight yesterday, 30 April. > > The following nominations have been received: > > President > Eisa Abdullah Al Dashti (KUW) > Lamine Diack (SEN) > Amadeo Francis (PUR) > Suresh Kalmadi (IND) > > Vice-President > Helmut Digel (GER) > Vivian Gungaram (MRI) > Alberto Juantorena Danger (CUB) > Suresh Kalmadi (IND) > Cesar Moreno Bravo (MEX) > Jung-Ki Park (KOR) > > Council Member > Dahlan Jaman B Al-Hamad (QAT) > Saud bin Hamed Al Rawahi (OMN) > Luciano Barra (ITA) > Sergey Bubka (UKR) > Gianni Gola (ITA) > Mohamad Hasan (INA) > Derek James (BOT) > Suresh Kalmadi (IND) > Ilkka Kanerva (FIN) > Victor Lopez (PUR) > Noel Lynch (BAR) > Justice Austain Mnaungulu (MAW) > Miguel Angel Paredes (PAR) > Mehmet Yurdadön (TUR) > > ENDS >
t-and-f: IAAF: Four candidates for IAAF presidency
Hello, the reactions vary from 'surprising Diack actually got competition', to 'Francis is the main contender' and 'how nice olympic champions like Juantorena en Bubka are candidates for high positions'. Anyway, Courtesy IAAF, Wilmar Kortleever IAAF PRESS RELEASE CANDIDATURES FOR CONGRESS ELECTIONS 1 May 2001 MONACO - Monte-Carlo - The IAAF Congress will be held in Edmonton on 1 and 2 August, just prior to the 8th IAAF World Championships in Athletics. Although not normally an election Congress, on this occasion an election must be held to select a new IAAF President to replace the late Primo Nebiolo, who passed away on 7 November 1999. If the new President is an incumbent Council member or Vice President, Congress will also need to elect replacements for these posts. The deadline for candidatures was midnight yesterday, 30 April. The following nominations have been received: President Eisa Abdullah Al Dashti (KUW) Lamine Diack (SEN) Amadeo Francis (PUR) Suresh Kalmadi (IND) Vice-President Helmut Digel (GER) Vivian Gungaram (MRI) Alberto Juantorena Danger (CUB) Suresh Kalmadi (IND) Cesar Moreno Bravo (MEX) Jung-Ki Park (KOR) Council Member Dahlan Jaman B Al-Hamad (QAT) Saud bin Hamed Al Rawahi (OMN) Luciano Barra (ITA) Sergey Bubka (UKR) Gianni Gola (ITA) Mohamad Hasan (INA) Derek James (BOT) Suresh Kalmadi (IND) Ilkka Kanerva (FIN) Victor Lopez (PUR) Noel Lynch (BAR) Justice Austain Mnaungulu (MAW) Miguel Angel Paredes (PAR) Mehmet Yurdadön (TUR) ENDS
t-and-f: Just revealed: W40 record in 5000
Greetings, all Runner's World Online posted on May Day: Fantastic 5000: The British track and field newsletter Athletics International reports in its latest edition that a remarkable women's masters track record went unspotted last summer. Romanian Elena Fidatov (born July 24, 1960) ran the 5000 meters in 15:20.59 in Bucharest on August 7, obliterating the previous masters WR of 15:51.7 by Nicole Leveque in 1994. Me again: That's sub-5-minute mile pace for 3.1 miles. Incredible. Perhaps as amazing is the fact that this didn't come to light until now -- nine months after the fact. Quite a gestation period for a mark worth 14:37 when age-graded to compare with open (elite) competition. (The outdoor women's WR for 5000 is 14:28.09.) What are the odds of WAVA recognizing Fidatov's 5K as the masters record? About as good as my becoming president of WAVA. Also amazing: EF's PR at 5000 is listed as 15:12.58 on Peter Larsson's Web site. And she did THAT at age 35 in Göteborg in 1995. A late bloomer, I gue ss. Unmentioned by Runner's World Online was the fact that Fidatov five months before her record run was sprung from a doping ban. Reuters reported in March 2000: BUCHAREST, March 16 (Reuters) - Romanian Elena Fidatov, banned two years ago for failing a drug test, has been given the green light by the International Amateur Athletic Federation (IAAF) to compete at the world cross-country championships in Portugal, an official said. Nicolae Marasescu, general secretary of the body governing Romanian athletics, said Fidatov, had been picked for this weekend's race in Vilamoura after testing negative in three doping tests over the past two months. "Fidatov did not stop training during her suspension," Marasescu said. "She is in top form as a Romanian cross country squad member." Fidatov, 39, had been banned for illegal use of nandrolone. She will now join Constantina Dita, Iulia Olteanu, Denisa Costescu, Cristina Grosu and Casandra Iloc on a strong Romanian team. Ken Nakamura -- this is YOUR turf. How did this mark escape your notice? Ken Stone http://www.masterstrack.com
