Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Kurt Bray]

I understand the circular argument people are making about his comments
in the past and having to buy into them if you are coached by him but
anyone who is familiar with Charlie and his faith in his own abilities,
he is talking about everybody else's athletes. Not his own.


These statements Charlie made in the past ain't all that far in the past.  
Consider this from an interview published online in Testosterone Nation on 
September 22, 2000:

"  T: We like to joke at T-mag that the scientists administering
 the drugs to the Olympic athletes need gold medals of their
 own. Are there any clean athletes left at the Olympic level in
 sprinting?

 CF: When I testified at the Dubin Inquiry all those years ago,
 the information I had was that the number of athletes using
 performance enhancing drugs, at the Olympic level, was about
 80%. The IAAF secretary, John Holt, said that my charges
 were "wildly exaggerated" and said his research showed it was
 only 30 to 40%, which he obviously considered to be
 acceptable. Whether it's 30, 40, 50, or 100% is immaterial.
 The dividing line is not left and right, with the drug free on one
 side and the dirty cheats on the other. It's divided horizontally
 with those above the line on the drugs and those below,
 perhaps being clean.

 T: So would it be fair to say that only the losers are clean?

 CF: If anyone is clean, it's going to be the losers. The irony
 becomes that in order for an athlete to be an anti-doping
 advocate he must be, as a general rule, on drugs! How else
 would he rise to such a level of prominence so that he would
 have a platform from which to speak?"

(end quote)

So these past statements aren't from 1988.  They aren't from the Dubin 
testimony.  No, as recently as two and half years ago he was saying you must 
dope to get to the top and only losers (if anyone) are clean.  Now you are 
telling me that it's only everybody else's athletes who are dirty and not 
Charlie's?  That since this interview he has changed his mind and decided to 
coach clean?  Why hasn't he publicly said so?
And if his program is so clean, why is he even associating with 
dope-drenched publications like "Testosterone Nation" for crying out loud?  
Check them out for yourself - Look in the past issues and you can read 
Charlie's interview for yourself:

http://www.t-mag.com/

This where the clean coach gives interviews?

Kurt Bray


_
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

Re: t-and-f: More support for Francis...

[Dan Kaplan]

--- Mike Prizy <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Why would someone want to brag about a time that was
> disqualified because it was assisted by performance enhancing drugs?
> 
> This is from page one of Charlie's web site:
> 
> How is 6.33 seconds for 60 meters or 9.79 seconds for 100meters while
> easing in to the finish?

That's an easy question to answer.  If Francis truly believes that any
"winner" is on drugs in order to be at that level, then it is natural to
take pride in the fact that his system produced the best drug-assisted
athletes of all.  Simply a level playing field.  If an up and coming
athlete believes likewise, would they go to a coach who has produced 9.9x
or one who has produced 9.7x?  If the reports are true that Francis has
been working with Montgomery for the past 2 years, he could now claim a
9.78 and 9.79, and arguably both have tested clean...

Going back to what I said about the IAAF creating this situation, we
wouldn't even be having this discussion if it weren't for their muddling
around.  Instead, we could be fantasizing about seeing 10.4x and 9.6x over
the next 2 years.  But no, we'd rather complain about those people that
are striving to accomplish exactly that which we want to see.  Isn't that
reason enough to do away with the drug testing farce?

Dan

=
http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc.
http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F

  @o  Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 <|\/ <^-  ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
_/ \ \/\  (503)370-9969 phone/fax
   /   /

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Dan Kaplan]

--- [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote:
> Somebody mentioned his honesty.
> Didn't that come only AFTER he got caught?

Others have been caught and been much less than honest with their
explanations...  Francis' motivations may have been at least partially due
to book sales (post-Dubin), but he willingly shares enough that little is
left to the imagination.

Dan


=
http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc.
http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F

  @o  Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 <|\/ <^-  ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
_/ \ \/\  (503)370-9969 phone/fax
   /   /

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Mike Prizy]

I think if M&M don't win the PR in this case, they might have to look for real day 
jobs. I think the IAAF
is being reasonable and not caustic nor suicidal about questioning two of its marquee 
athletes regarding
their association with a known drug cheat who has a life-time ban from his own 
country's NGB.

Proactive, pre-emptive, or backed in to a corner, regardless of how or why the IAAF 
got this far with this
issue, I think majority sentiment is going to be on the side of the IAAF. Eventually, 
the general media
will have the general public thinking Ben II, which could force the issue with other 
sponsors. If M&M
remain silent much longer, their next public speaking might be, "Do you want fries 
with that?"



"Martin J. Dixon" wrote:

> Maybe it won't win it for them in this case but remaining silent in a PR fight is 
>often a better tactic
> than going vocal if the other side is vitriolic with their criticism. Why fight when 
>the other side is
> committing suicide?
> Regards,
> Martin
>
> Mike Prizy wrote:
>
> > I think the interesting issue will be if some of the GL organizers back their talk 
>and keep Team J&M
> > out. What kind of pressure would this put on U.S. organizers?
> >
> > For there to be a PR fight, Jones and Montgomery have to return a punch, and I'm 
>not sure if I've
> > seen one yet. Being silent won't win it for them. I think MoJo & Monty would stand 
>a better chance
> > if they deal with this early and get as much distance/time as they can between now 
>and the big
> > outdoor meets. But, then again, it's their decision-making process that is in 
>question.
> >
> > Re: Diack, he seems like an honorable man. I think he will offer his condolences, 
>but he will still
> > talk to MJ like a father.
> >
> > "Martin J. Dixon" wrote:
> >
> > > I think Francis/Jones/Montgomery are going to win this PR fight. Good
> > > for them.
> > >
> > > "Footnote: When Diack eventually meets with Jones he should also
> > > apologise for declaring he will "talk to her like a father". Jones is
> > > grieving over the recent murder of her estranged natural father."
> > >
> > > 
>http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,5909970%255E2771,00.html
> > >
> > > Regards,
> > >
> > > Martin

Re: t-and-f: VALERIY NIKOLAYEVICH BRUMEL- April 14, 1942--January 26, 2003

[koala]

On Wed, 29 Jan 2003 21:17:41 -0500, you wrote:

>The picture Walt Murphy described earlier of Brumel kicking a basketball
>goal and his obituary can be found at http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/.
>Click the Valeriy Brumel Obituary link.

Nice write-up, well done.

Could I make one constructive criticism to the T&FN webmaster?

Does the nutrition advertising banner (just above John Godina's picture)
HAVE to be on an obituary page?  It seems a little disrespectful to
commercialize off of somebody's death.
I consider John a friend, and I'm sure he would agree.
Maybe it's just me...

RT

Re: t-and-f: More support for Francis...

[Mike Prizy]

But, Martin, is it not credible suspicion?  Why would someone want to brag about a 
time that was
disqualified because it was assisted by performance enhancing drugs?

This is from page one of Charlie's web site:

- By using the Francis Advanced Speed Training program incredible results have been 
attained. See
for yourself.

How is 6.33 seconds for 60 meters or 9.79 seconds for 100meters while easing in to the 
finish? -



"Martin J. Dixon" wrote:

> ...form an interesting source.
>
> "Mr. Francis has paid a high penalty with respect to his past mistakes.
> He is a very talented coach, and in my opinion...it is appropriate to
> allow him once again to work with elite track and field athletes "
>
> Find out who here:
>
> http://www.canada.com/ottawa/story.asp?id=AA4A68FF-58D2-4004-B914-68212CC5C068
>
> Regards,
>
>
> Martin

t-and-f: VALERIY NIKOLAYEVICH BRUMEL- April 14, 1942--January 26, 2003

[Ben Hall]

The picture Walt Murphy described earlier of Brumel kicking a basketball
goal and his obituary can be found at http://www.trackandfieldnews.com/.
Click the Valeriy Brumel Obituary link.

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Martin J. Dixon]

Ok I've got it: I'm not now nor have I ever been a member of the
communist party. Oh wait, someone else tried to make people say that.
Even if he did say that, no one would believe him anyway-as Randy is
pointing out as I type this(thanks-you just made my point)so all you
would be left with is testing so why not just do the testing. That's the
regime now. People want him to make a statement and then they aren't
going to believe him in any event. What would you do if you were in that
position? Exactly what he is doing right now. 
I understand the circular argument people are making about his comments
in the past and having to buy into them if you are coached by him but
anyone who is familiar with Charlie and his faith in his own abilities,
he is talking about everybody else's athletes. Not his own.
Regards,
Martin

Kurt Bray wrote:
> 
> >I'd also like Kurt or
> >someone to word the press release that they think he should issue that
> >would
> >settle everyone down. And I mean that-I'd really be curious to see that.
> 
> It wouldn't take all that much.  He wouldn't even have to, as you say,
> "prostrate himself".  All he have to do is honestly and sincerely disavow
> the use of dope in his training of athletes - and then actually stick to it.
> 
> But instead what we get are repeated assertions by Charlie that you can't be
> a top athlete without dope, that only losers are clean.  And at the same
> time Charlie is offering (on his website) to coach athletes to the top, to
> make them winners.  The only logical conclusion here is that he plans to
> coach them to use dope.
> 
> And THAT is why it is so alarming to see top athletes like Jones and
> Montgomery take up with him.  They might be dirty already (I'm not naive
> enough to think that Ben was the only doper), but if they stick with Charlie
> it will have the effect of removing all doubt.
> 
> Kurt Bray
> 
> _
> Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[koala]

If Charlie refuses to refute his published statement
that world records cannot be set without doping,
and Jones is seeking him out for his expertise in
getting her to the final plane that she's never been
able to reach- setting a world record,
then it stands to reason that he will advise her
of his honest opinion on what is needed (in his
opinion) to achieve that objective.

In plain English, he will tell her that if she
truly wants to set a world record, she won't be
able to do it without going on "the stuff".

WHAT OTHER CONCLUSION COULD ONE REACH, GIVEN HIS
OWN STATEMENTS?

All it takes is a believable refutation by Charlie-
i.e. "it may indeed be possible to achieve a world
record without doping, and I am committed to exploring
that possibility",
or... just state his commitment to coach through technical means
only, and not chemical, world records be damned.  Underline
the latter.
Instead, we get silence.

And even if Francis DID issue such a statement, there
is still a trust factor.

Somebody mentioned his honesty.
Didn't that come only AFTER he got caught?

What's to make us believe him now, when in the
past he hid the facts when it was to his (and his
athletes') advantage to keep it hidden?

All this subterfuge, sneaking around, avoiding cameras,
not returning phone calls, using Hansen as cover, just
reinforces the perception that there must be fire underneath
all that smoke.

RT

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Kurt Bray]

I'd also like Kurt or
someone to word the press release that they think he should issue that 
would
settle everyone down. And I mean that-I'd really be curious to see that.

It wouldn't take all that much.  He wouldn't even have to, as you say, 
"prostrate himself".  All he have to do is honestly and sincerely disavow 
the use of dope in his training of athletes - and then actually stick to it.

But instead what we get are repeated assertions by Charlie that you can't be 
a top athlete without dope, that only losers are clean.  And at the same 
time Charlie is offering (on his website) to coach athletes to the top, to 
make them winners.  The only logical conclusion here is that he plans to 
coach them to use dope.

And THAT is why it is so alarming to see top athletes like Jones and 
Montgomery take up with him.  They might be dirty already (I'm not naive 
enough to think that Ben was the only doper), but if they stick with Charlie 
it will have the effect of removing all doubt.

Kurt Bray

_
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

t-and-f: More support for Francis...

[Martin J. Dixon]

...form an interesting source.

"Mr. Francis has paid a high penalty with respect to his past mistakes.
He is a very talented coach, and in my opinion...it is appropriate to
allow him once again to work with elite track and field athletes "

Find out who here:

http://www.canada.com/ottawa/story.asp?id=AA4A68FF-58D2-4004-B914-68212CC5C068

Regards,
 
 
Martin

Re: t-and-f: USATF Release: Sorry!

[Roger Ruth]

Sorry to have duplicated part of the USATF Release that had been posted on
t-and-f. I intended to forward the Dragila part to the VaultCanada list.

t-and-f: USATF Release: Olympic stars and record holders to compete at Boston

[Roger Ruth]

Contact:   Tom Surber
   Media Information Manager
   USA Track & Field
   (317) 261-0500 x317
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   http://www.usatf.org

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Wednesday, January 29, 2003

Olympic stars and record holders to compete at Boston

INDIANAPOLIS - A stellar field of U.S. and international stars will kick
off USA Track & Field's 2003 Indoor Golden Spike Tour Saturday at the
adidas Boston Indoor Games. Held at the Reggie Lewis Track & Athletic
Center, the meet will be broadcast live February 1 from 6-7 p.m. Eastern
on ESPN2.

. . . . .

The Visa women's pole vault is a star-studded affair as well, featuring
world outdoor record holder and Olympic gold medalist Stacy Dragila. Now
fully recovered from a sore left foot that hampered her throughout the
2002 season, Dragila returns to the indoor circuit looking to regain her
world indoor record. A six-time U.S. Indoor champion and the 1997 World
Indoor gold medalist, Dragila will be challenged by 2002 U.S. Indoor
champion Mary Sauer, and former American record holder Mel Mueller. 2001
World Indoor Championships silver medalist Kellie Suttle also is in the
field.


Visa Women's Pole Vault: Stacy Dragila, Mel Mueller, Mary Sauer, Kellie
Suttle, Jill Schwartz, Vanessa Boslak (FRA).

~

Interesting, that the women's vault has come so far that the first big meet
of the U.S. indoor season features that event, while there is no
competition for the men.  --RR

t-and-f: Ottey (the Slovenian) returns

[Bob Ramsak]

Hi All,

Just heard from a reporter in SLO who passed along some results for Merlene
Ottey from a meet in Vienna on Tuesday:  7.30 in the 60, and 23.93 in the
200.  Finished third in both.  She's entered in the 60 in the Energizer
Euroseries meet in Gent BEL on Feb 9.







--
|   Bob Ramsak
|   *TRACK PROFILE News Service - Editor
|   http://www.trackprofile.com
|   *Race Results Weekly - Asst. Editor
|   http://www.raceresultsweekly.com
---
|Cleveland, Ohio USA
|[EMAIL PROTECTED]
|Tel - 216-731-9648
|Fax - 216-731-9675

t-and-f: Irish Racing in Boston - Correspondent Needed

[Tim & Karen O'Dowd]

If you are:
1) an athletics fan
2) live in the vicinity of Boston
3) plan on attending Saturday's (1st February) adidas Boston Indoor Games
4) want to write a synopsis of the races (see below) with an Irish
perspective

Please contact me at: [EMAIL PROTECTED] or hit reply to [EMAIL PROTECTED]

adidas Boston Indoor ~ Irish Athletes Schedule

5.10 pm - Women’s 3,000m - Sinead Delahunty-Evans
5.35 pm - College Distance Medley Relay - Liam Reale & Paul Reilly
6.12 pm - Men’s 800m - Daniel Caulfield
6.39 - Women’s 1,500m - Geraldine Hendricken
7.40 pm – Men’s 3,000m Alistair Cragg

Cheers

Timothy Patrick O'Dowd
www.irishrunner.com
Keeping Track of Ireland

t-and-f: Athletics boss takes Marion to task

[Steve Bennett]

You may all be interested in this article in the Sydney Telegraph

http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,5909970%255E2
771,00.html


regards
Steve Bennett
www.oztrack.com
AthleticsTraining.com


-Original Message-
From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
[mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Dan Kaplan
Sent: Thursday, 30 January 2003 6:55 AM
To: track list
Subject: Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task


--- ghill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Unfortunately, we're also back at that same horrid place we've been so 
> many times before, with track's governing bodies attempting to put out 
> fires by pouring gasoline on them.

I guess I didn't really state it clearly, but that is precisely why I think
this is such a great opportunity to finally get the IAAF to clean up their
act!  Between Francis, Jones, and Montgomery -- and Nike probably has a wee
bit of influence in that group -- I just don't see that this one can be put
to bed quietly.  There are a lot of very difficult questions on the table
that I'd really like the IAAF make an attempt at answering.  If Marion and
Tim stay the course, the IAAF will have little choice but to do that or take
the whole sport down with them...  If the latter happens, something will
surely rise up (eventually) to fill the void.

--- Randall Northam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dan
> You've confused me here. Not a difficult task I will admit but let me
> see if I've worked out your logic.
> The IAAF are upset at answering questions about drugs whereas if they 
> turned a blind eye to it (in other words ignored "the whole sordid 
> mess") it would go away. Is that right?

No, that's not quite what I meant.  Ignoring it wouldn't make it go away,
although it certainly could have been smoothed out somewhat.  What I meant
is that the IAAF created this very situation, and now it has come full
circle and smacked them square between the eyes.  There's no reason to feel
sympathetic for their current plight, which is what they're angling for
("there must be hundreds of good sprint coaches in the US, why Francis?"
Uh, maybe because a "good" coach doesn't quite cut it at the very top
level?).

> If the IAAF said they had no problem with Francis coaching again you
> don't think there'd be an even bigger mess?

I'm not sure.  My gut feeling is the current mess would be much less, but
the future mess is anyone's guess.

I'd be curious for a show of hands:  How many people on the list feel
Charlie Francis is the only active T&F coach who is a proponent of drug use?
There are two reasons I can think of to single him out:

1) He's a known commodity (i.e. laziness)
2) He's a danger to the sport's management (i.e. fear)

Neither is a very compelling reason in my mind to be the sole target of the
IAAF's attacks...  If Francis had his way, we'd have an incredibly exciting
sport to watch, and much of the negativity we always complain about would
fall be the wayside.

I'm reminded of Tim Robbins' classic line from Shawshank Redemption;
paraphrasing:  "The ironic thing is I was straight as an arrow on the
outside.  I had to go to jail to become a crook."  Francis had to cheat and
be busted to be revealed as one of the most honest people within the
sport...

Dan

=
http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc.
http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F

  @o  Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 <|\/ <^-  ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
_/ \ \/\  (503)370-9969 phone/fax
   /   /

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com

t-and-f: USATF Release: Olympic stars and record holders to compete at Boston

[USATF Communications]

Contact:   Tom Surber
   Media Information Manager
   USA Track & Field
   (317) 261-0500 x317
   [EMAIL PROTECTED]
   http://www.usatf.org
 
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Wednesday, January 29, 2003
 
Olympic stars and record holders to compete at Boston
 
INDIANAPOLIS - A stellar field of U.S. and international stars will kick
off USA Track & Field's 2003 Indoor Golden Spike Tour Saturday at the
adidas Boston Indoor Games. Held at the Reggie Lewis Track & Athletic
Center, the meet will be broadcast live February 1 from 6-7 p.m. Eastern
on ESPN2.
 
U.S. stars Maurice Greene, Stacy Dragila, David Krummenacker and Regina
Jacobs headline the event, which offers bonus money to any athlete who
sets a world or American record. In its seven-year history, $140,000 in
bonuses for world and American records have been awarded to athletes at
the adidas Boston Indoor Games. At this year's event, local organizers
Global Athletics and Marketing, Inc., will provide bonuses of $10,000
for any American record and $25,000 for any world record.
 
Strong fields will be featured throughout the meet, highlighted by the
Verizon men's 60m dash, the women's 60m, the adidas men's 1,500m, the
women's 1,500m and the Visa women's pole vault.
 
As the world indoor record holder for 60 meters (6.39 seconds) and the
1999 World Indoor Champion in the event, Maurice Greene is the heavy
favorite in the men's 60m. A two-time Olympic gold medalist and
five-time World Outdoor Championships gold medalist, Greene will face a
stiff challenge from defending World Indoor champion Tim Harden, and
defending Boston champion Jon Drummond. 2002 U.S. Indoor 200m champion
and reigning world 200m indoor champion Shawn Crawford also is in the
field, along with Joshua "J.J." Johnson, who placed second in the 60m at
the 2002 Millrose Games. Marcus Brunson, Kaaron Conwright and Ghana's
Aziz Zakari also will compete Saturday.
 
After a landmark 2002 season, David Krummenacker returns to Boston to
compete in the adidas men's 1,500 meters after sprinting past Kenya's
Laban Rotich in the final lap of the 1,000 meters at last year's event
to win in the new American indoor record time of 2:17.85. Krummenacker,
whose 2002 performance bettered Ocky Clark's 1989 AR of 2:18.19, will
have his sights on Jeff Atkinson's 1989 U.S. 1,500m record of 3:38.12.
Krummenacker will have his hands full competing against Kenyans Bernard
Lagat, the 2000 Olympic bronze medalist, and Laban Rotich, the
third-fastest man ever at 1,500m indoors (behind only Hicham el Guerrouj
and Haile Gebrselassie). Kevin Sullivan of Canada, who was fifth at the
2000 Olympics, also could be a factor. Other Americans in the field
include 2002 U.S. Indoor mile champion Jason Lunn, 2002 U.S. Indoor, and
Outdoor runner-up, Bryan Berryhill and 2000 Olympic semi-finalist
Michael Stember. 
 
Last year's women's 60m runner-up Chryste Gaines, the 2001 World Indoor
bronze medalist and defending U.S. 60m champion, will face a difficult
challenge from 1999 World Outdoor 200m champion and fellow Olympic relay
gold medalist Inger Miller. Four-time NCAA women's 100m champion and
2002 USA Indoor 60m runner-up Angela Williams is also in the field,
along with Americans Torri Edwards, who placed fourth in the 100 meters
at the 2002 USA Outdoor Championships, and hurdles specialist Kim
Carson. The Americans will be challenged by 2000 Olympic 4x100m relay
gold medalist Savatheda Fynes of the Bahamas, who placed fourth here
last year. 
 
Regina Jacobs returns to the Reggie Lewis Center after setting records
there each of the last three years. Jacobs will compete in the 1,500
meters on Saturday after setting a new world two-mile world best there
last year in 9:23.38. Also at Boston in 2001, she ran a meet record for
3000 meters, 8:43.38, and in 2000 she set the American record for 1000m
when she ran 2:35.29. To set records four years in a row at Boston,
Jacobs will look to better Mary Slaney's 23-year-old American record of
4:00.8. Jacobs will have to be at her best to defeat a strong
international field including Ireland's Geraldine Hendricken, who last
year became the second-fastest Irish 1500m woman in history behind only
Sonia O'Sullivan. Lyudmila Vasilyeva of Russia, who ran the
eighth-fastest time in the world outdoors in 2001, also is in the field,
along with Romania's Elena Iagar, who was among the fastest women in the
world last year at this distance. American Collette Liss, who finished
the 2002 season ranked #9 in the U.S. by Track & Field News at 1,500m
and 3,000m, also will compete in Boston.
 
The Visa women's pole vault is a star-studded affair as well, featuring
world outdoor record holder and Olympic gold medalist Stacy Dragila. Now
fully recovered from a sore left foot that hampered her throughout the
2002 season, Dragila returns to the indoor circuit looking to regain her
world indoor record. A six-time U.S. Indoor champion and the 1997 World
Indoor gold

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Dan Kaplan]

--- ghill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Unfortunately, we're also back at that same horrid place
> we've been so many times before, with track's governing bodies
> attempting to put out fires by pouring gasoline on them.

I guess I didn't really state it clearly, but that is precisely why I
think this is such a great opportunity to finally get the IAAF to clean up
their act!  Between Francis, Jones, and Montgomery -- and Nike probably
has a wee bit of influence in that group -- I just don't see that this one
can be put to bed quietly.  There are a lot of very difficult questions on
the table that I'd really like the IAAF make an attempt at answering.  If
Marion and Tim stay the course, the IAAF will have little choice but to do
that or take the whole sport down with them...  If the latter happens,
something will surely rise up (eventually) to fill the void.

--- Randall Northam <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Dan
> You've confused me here. Not a difficult task I will admit but let me 
> see if I've worked out your logic.
> The IAAF are upset at answering questions about drugs whereas if they 
> turned a blind eye to it (in other words ignored "the whole sordid 
> mess") it would go away. Is that right?

No, that's not quite what I meant.  Ignoring it wouldn't make it go away,
although it certainly could have been smoothed out somewhat.  What I meant
is that the IAAF created this very situation, and now it has come full
circle and smacked them square between the eyes.  There's no reason to
feel sympathetic for their current plight, which is what they're angling
for ("there must be hundreds of good sprint coaches in the US, why
Francis?"  Uh, maybe because a "good" coach doesn't quite cut it at the
very top level?).

> If the IAAF said they had no problem with Francis coaching again you 
> don't think there'd be an even bigger mess?

I'm not sure.  My gut feeling is the current mess would be much less, but
the future mess is anyone's guess.

I'd be curious for a show of hands:  How many people on the list feel
Charlie Francis is the only active T&F coach who is a proponent of drug
use?  There are two reasons I can think of to single him out:

1) He's a known commodity (i.e. laziness)
2) He's a danger to the sport's management (i.e. fear)

Neither is a very compelling reason in my mind to be the sole target of
the IAAF's attacks...  If Francis had his way, we'd have an incredibly
exciting sport to watch, and much of the negativity we always complain
about would fall be the wayside.

I'm reminded of Tim Robbins' classic line from Shawshank Redemption;
paraphrasing:  "The ironic thing is I was straight as an arrow on the
outside.  I had to go to jail to become a crook."  Francis had to cheat
and be busted to be revealed as one of the most honest people within the
sport...

Dan

=
http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc.
http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F

  @o  Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 <|\/ <^-  ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
_/ \ \/\  (503)370-9969 phone/fax
   /   /

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com

t-and-f: Lister in the press

[Martin J. Dixon]

Why do we have to get this from a lister through the media:-).

"We have initiated discussions with the athletes and their
representatives," USATF spokeswoman Jill Geer said Wednesday. "The
discussions are ongoing. Any time track and field is portrayed in a
negative light, it's cause for concern."

http://www.thestate.com/mld/thestate/sports/5058356.htm

Regards,


Martin

t-and-f: Pole Vault Summit marks

[Tom Borish]

I've noticed that none of the marks made at the Pole Vault Summit in Reno 
two weeks ago have yet to make the NCAA performance list.  Unless I'm 
missing something, is there some kind of waiting period on these marks or do 
they not count for some reason?

Thanks...

Tom Borish
www.trackshark.com







_
MSN 8 with e-mail virus protection service: 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/virus

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Martin J. Dixon]

Maybe it won't win it for them in this case but remaining silent in a PR fight is 
often a better tactic
than going vocal if the other side is vitriolic with their criticism. Why fight when 
the other side is
committing suicide?
Regards,
Martin

Mike Prizy wrote:

> I think the interesting issue will be if some of the GL organizers back their talk 
>and keep Team J&M
> out. What kind of pressure would this put on U.S. organizers?
>
> For there to be a PR fight, Jones and Montgomery have to return a punch, and I'm not 
>sure if I've
> seen one yet. Being silent won't win it for them. I think MoJo & Monty would stand a 
>better chance
> if they deal with this early and get as much distance/time as they can between now 
>and the big
> outdoor meets. But, then again, it's their decision-making process that is in 
>question.
>
> Re: Diack, he seems like an honorable man. I think he will offer his condolences, 
>but he will still
> talk to MJ like a father.
>
> "Martin J. Dixon" wrote:
>
> > I think Francis/Jones/Montgomery are going to win this PR fight. Good
> > for them.
> >
> > "Footnote: When Diack eventually meets with Jones he should also
> > apologise for declaring he will "talk to her like a father". Jones is
> > grieving over the recent murder of her estranged natural father."
> >
> > 
>http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,5909970%255E2771,00.html
> >
> > Regards,
> >
> > Martin

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Mike Prizy]

I think the interesting issue will be if some of the GL organizers back their talk and 
keep Team J&M
out. What kind of pressure would this put on U.S. organizers?

For there to be a PR fight, Jones and Montgomery have to return a punch, and I'm not 
sure if I've
seen one yet. Being silent won't win it for them. I think MoJo & Monty would stand a 
better chance
if they deal with this early and get as much distance/time as they can between now and 
the big
outdoor meets. But, then again, it's their decision-making process that is in question.

Re: Diack, he seems like an honorable man. I think he will offer his condolences, but 
he will still
talk to MJ like a father.

"Martin J. Dixon" wrote:

> I think Francis/Jones/Montgomery are going to win this PR fight. Good
> for them.
>
> "Footnote: When Diack eventually meets with Jones he should also
> apologise for declaring he will "talk to her like a father". Jones is
> grieving over the recent murder of her estranged natural father."
>
> 
>http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,5909970%255E2771,00.html
>
> Regards,
>
> Martin

t-and-f: Track & Field News is alive and well

[ghill]

If you've heard stories (untrue tales can certainly spread like mad on the
net) that T&FN has ceased publication, THEY ARE NOT TRUE.

The scoop is this: with the advent of our new free results service, eTN,
what we have done is kill the print version of Track Newsletter. (TN, T&FN,
easily confused by some, unfortunately.)

TRACK & FIELD NEWS IS ALIVE AND WELL.

gh

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Martin J. Dixon]

I'm still waiting for the quotes that are so offensive. I'd also like Kurt or
someone to word the press release that they think he should issue that would
settle everyone down. And I mean that-I'd really be curious to see that.
Regards,
Martiin

Kurt Bray wrote:

> You're right - he is back.  What I should have said was that he would be
> welcomed back, that he wouldn't have to coach in secret.  If people weren't
> still worried about his current ..uh.. "coaching methods", this whole
> Jones/Montgomery thing would be a non-issue.   But he apparently has not
> convinced anyone that he can/will/does coach clean.
>
> Kurt Bray
>
> >
> >But he's already "back in the sport," and probably in a bigger fashion than
> >ever. He certainly hasn¹t' existed in a vacuum all these years. I have
> >absolutely no evidence regarding this, but I'd fall over if it turned out
> >that M&M are the first "significant" track people to seek his services
> >through the years. They're just the high profile ones.
> >
> >If he "prostrated himself" he'd probably end up with less business than he
> >has now. And that's what it's all about, in the final analysis.
> >
> >gh
> >
> > > From: "Kurt Bray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Reply-To: "Kurt Bray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> > > Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:32:43 +
> > > To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> > > Subject: Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
> > >
> > >>> He does tell it like he thinks that it is. Everybody wants him to
> > >>> prostrate himself and why should he?<<
> > >
> > > Why should he?  So that he can get himself back into the sport, that's
> >why.
> > > Until people are convinced he is sincere, that he wouldn't create the
> >whole
> > > sordid mess all over again if given the chance, he's not going to be
> > > welcome.
> > >
> > > Kurt Bray
> > >
> > >
> > > _
> > > Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> > > http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> > >
>
> _
> Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Martin J. Dixon]

I've received 21 messages in my inbox while I was working out so I'm sure
someone has already pointed this out but he's coaching the top 2 sprinters in
the world. He'd be surprised to be told that he's "left" the sport.
Regards,
Martin

Kurt Bray wrote:

> >>He does tell it like he thinks that it is. Everybody wants him to
> >>prostrate himself and why should he?<<
>
> Why should he?  So that he can get himself back into the sport, that's why.
> Until people are convinced he is sincere, that he wouldn't create the whole
> sordid mess all over again if given the chance, he's not going to be
> welcome.
>
> Kurt Bray
>
> _
> Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

t-and-f: Test

[kim . wirgau]

If this makes the list, I would like to know what has to be done to get off
the list.  Thank you in advance.
kaw

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Randall Northam]

Dan
You've confused me here. Not a difficult task I will admit but let me 
see if I've worked out your logic.
The IAAF are upset at answering questions about drugs whereas if they 
turned a blind eye to it (in other words ignored "the whole sordid 
mess") it would go away. Is that right? You don't think the fourth 
estate would be even more determined to uncover drugs stories?
Look at what happened when Jones and Montgomery chose to liaise with 
Francis.
If the IAAF said they had no problem with Francis coaching again you 
don't think there'd be an even bigger mess?
Randall Northam

On Wednesday, Jan 29, 2003, at 17:08 Europe/London, Dan Kaplan wrote:

Who really sympathizes with the IAAF wringing their hands over fears of
having to answer questions about drugs all summer?  If anyone created 
the
"whole sordid mess," it's the people in those circles.  Let them 
figure it
out.

Dan

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Kurt Bray]

You're right - he is back.  What I should have said was that he would be 
welcomed back, that he wouldn't have to coach in secret.  If people weren't 
still worried about his current ..uh.. "coaching methods", this whole 
Jones/Montgomery thing would be a non-issue.   But he apparently has not 
convinced anyone that he can/will/does coach clean.

Kurt Bray




But he's already "back in the sport," and probably in a bigger fashion than
ever. He certainly hasn¹t' existed in a vacuum all these years. I have
absolutely no evidence regarding this, but I'd fall over if it turned out
that M&M are the first "significant" track people to seek his services
through the years. They're just the high profile ones.

If he "prostrated himself" he'd probably end up with less business than he
has now. And that's what it's all about, in the final analysis.

gh

> From: "Kurt Bray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: "Kurt Bray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:32:43 +
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
>
>>> He does tell it like he thinks that it is. Everybody wants him to
>>> prostrate himself and why should he?<<
>
> Why should he?  So that he can get himself back into the sport, that's 
why.
> Until people are convinced he is sincere, that he wouldn't create the 
whole
> sordid mess all over again if given the chance, he's not going to be
> welcome.
>
> Kurt Bray
>
>
> _
> Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>


_
Add photos to your messages with MSN 8. Get 2 months FREE*.  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/featuredemail

t-and-f: junk

[Randall Northam]

Guess what. The 'junk' filter on Apple's 10.2 OS mail programme has 
taken to sending some posts from this list to the junk mailbox.
I know Apple has good taste, but I didn't think it was that good!
Randall Northam

t-and-f: National Depth--Hammer/Javelin

[Roger Ruth]

The tables that follow summarize the number of athletes each country placed
in the world top-100 rankings for 2002 (plus ties) and the highest-ranked
of these for each event. Since one or two placings may represent only
exceptional individuals or unusual circumstances, rather than national
program strength, I've condensed the lists to countries with three placings
or more. The data base drawn upon is the world list from Mirko Jalava's web
site .


NEN'S HAMMER THROW 2002 WONEN'S HAMMER THROW 2002
Country  Top 100  Highest   Country  Top 100  Highest

United States8  42  United States   16   4
Russia   7   1  Russia   7   1
Hungary  7   3  China7   6
Germany  7  10  Belarus  7   8
Ukraine  6   4  Germany  7  16
Belarus  6  11  Cuba 4   5
Italy6  29  Australia4   9
France   5  12  Hungary  4  47
Finland  4   8  France   3   3
Poland   4  22  Ukraine  3  10
Cuba 4  47  Portugal 3  12
Czech Republic   3  30  Finland  3  13
Great Britain3  28
Greece   3  32
Canada   3  43

36 countries represented32 countries represented
100th = 69.86m (229'2 1/2") 100th = 61.18 (200'8 3/4")

The men's distribution is unusual, not only because seven countries are
grouped within two representatives on the world top 100, but in that 17
countries were found to have a single top-100 ranking.



NEN'S JAVELIN THROW 2002WOMEN'S JAVELIN THROW 2002
Country  Top 100  Highest   Country  Top 100  Highest

Germany 13   4  China9  47
Finland 13  14  Russia   8   4
France   6  26  Germany  8   7
China5  21  Cuba 6   4
Russia   4   1  Ukraine  5  23
Greece   4   2  Belarus  5  32
Great Britain4   3  Great Britain4   6
Poland   4   7  Romania  4  10
Latvia   4   9  Finland  4  11
Czech Republic   3   5  Italy4  12
Australia3  11  Hungary  4  13
Cuba 3  15  United States4  25
Norway   3  16  Greece   3   1
United States3  29  Poland   3  33
South Africa 3  32  Korea3  38
Korea3  37  Lithuania3  49

35 countries represented33 countries represented
100th = 76.40m (250'8") 100th = 54.96m (180'3 3/4")

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[ghill]

> From: Dan Kaplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: Dan Kaplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:08:17 -0800 (PST)
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
> 
> Who really sympathizes with the IAAF wringing their hands over fears of
> having to answer questions about drugs all summer?  If anyone created the
> "whole sordid mess," it's the people in those circles.  Let them figure it
> out.>>

Unfortunately, we're also back at that same horrid place we've been so many
times before, with track's governing bodies attempting to put out fires by
pouring gasoline on them.

The IAAF's public intrusion--at the highest of levels no less--into what was
a story that would have died eventually, has only stoked the fires of
interest. If it's a violation of IAAF rules, fine, act on it. But this was
personal choice--albeit an unfathomably stupid one--by M&M. Let them suffer
the consequences without dragging the whole damned sport into it again.

gh

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Elitnet]

He is totally in the loop. Not trying to get back. "He's in the MIX"



In a message dated 1/29/2003 8:57:01 AM, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes:

>Why should he?  So that he can get himself back into the sport, that's
>why. >Until people are convinced he is sincere, that he wouldn't create the 
whole
>
>sordid mess all over again if given the chance, he's not going to be 
>welcome.
>
>Kurt Bray
>
>

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Dan Kaplan]

--- Kurt Bray <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
> Until people are convinced he is sincere, that he wouldn't create the
> whole sordid mess all over again if given the chance, he's not going to
> be welcome.

That's assuming, of course, that he actually created the mess.  I'm more
inclined to think he "merely" played a big part in it and took the fall
for a mess created long before his time and continued on long after it.

I think it's great that Francis may be re-entering the sport (not that he
really ever left it, apparently).  Look at the effect just the rumors have
had on the IAAF!  They're scrambling around, trying to put out fires that
aren't even lit yet.  As I've said elsewhere, I think Francis' reputation
(or is that his shadow?) has grown bigger than even the IAAF over the
years.  There is so much hiprocricy within the sport with regards to drugs
that a wake-up call is exactly what is needed.  And who better to provide
it then the person who is regarded as the pre-eminent expert on the
subject and known to not back away from it?

Who really sympathizes with the IAAF wringing their hands over fears of
having to answer questions about drugs all summer?  If anyone created the
"whole sordid mess," it's the people in those circles.  Let them figure it
out.

Dan

=
http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc.
http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F

  @o  Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 <|\/ <^-  ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
_/ \ \/\  (503)370-9969 phone/fax
   /   /

__
Do you Yahoo!?
Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
http://mailplus.yahoo.com

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[ghill]

But he's already "back in the sport," and probably in a bigger fashion than
ever. He certainly hasn¹t' existed in a vacuum all these years. I have
absolutely no evidence regarding this, but I'd fall over if it turned out
that M&M are the first "significant" track people to seek his services
through the years. They're just the high profile ones.

If he "prostrated himself" he'd probably end up with less business than he
has now. And that's what it's all about, in the final analysis.

gh

> From: "Kurt Bray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: "Kurt Bray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 16:32:43 +
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
> 
>>> He does tell it like he thinks that it is. Everybody wants him to
>>> prostrate himself and why should he?<<
> 
> Why should he?  So that he can get himself back into the sport, that's why.
> Until people are convinced he is sincere, that he wouldn't create the whole
> sordid mess all over again if given the chance, he's not going to be
> welcome.
> 
> Kurt Bray
> 
> 
> _
> Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> 

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[ghill]

you mean he should have gone the Pete Rose route?

> From: Dan Kaplan <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 08:43:14 -0800 (PST)
> To: ghill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
> 
> That's the beauty of having pretty much nothing left to lose...
> 
> Dan
> 
> --- ghill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]> wrote:
>> In Francis's "defense," one can at least say that he's honest, unlike an
>> obviously high number of his coaching brethren. He took the fall like a
>> man and continues to tell it pretty much like it is.
>> 
>>> From: "Kurt Bray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Reply-To: "Kurt Bray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 15:41:45 +
>>> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
>>> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Subject: Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
>>> 
 From the article linked below:
>>> 
> "Francis has done his "time" and needs the chance to show he can
>> make a
> contribution in athletics. Montgomery and Jones have come to that
> conclusion."<<
>>> 
>>> Sure Charlie has done his "time", but the problem is that he hasn't
>> sworn
>>> off his "crime".  He apparently still cheerfully embraces dope in
>> athletics
>>> just as much as he ever did.  Until he convincingly turns his back on
>> dope
>>> he won't be welcome in the sport.
>>> 
>>> Kurt Bray
>>> 
>>> 
 I think Francis/Jones/Montgomery are going to win this PR fight. Good
 for them.
 
 "Footnote: When Diack eventually meets with Jones he should also
 apologise for declaring he will "talk to her like a father". Jones is
 grieving over the recent murder of her estranged natural father."
 
 
>> 
> http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,5909970%255E27
 71,00.html
 
 Regards,
 
 
 Martin
>>> 
>>> 
>>> _
>>> The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
>>> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
>>> 
>> 
> 
> 
> =
> http://AccountBiller.com - MyCalendar, D-Man, ReSearch, etc.
> http://Run-Down.com - 10,000 Running Links, Fantasy T&F
> 
> @o  Dan Kaplan - [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> <|\/ <^-  ( [EMAIL PROTECTED] or [EMAIL PROTECTED] )
> _/ \ \/\  (503)370-9969 phone/fax
>  /   /
> 
> __
> Do you Yahoo!?
> Yahoo! Mail Plus - Powerful. Affordable. Sign up now.
> http://mailplus.yahoo.com
> 

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Kurt Bray]

He does tell it like he thinks that it is. Everybody wants him to 
prostrate himself and why should he?<<

Why should he?  So that he can get himself back into the sport, that's why.  
Until people are convinced he is sincere, that he wouldn't create the whole 
sordid mess all over again if given the chance, he's not going to be 
welcome.

Kurt Bray


_
Help STOP SPAM with the new MSN 8 and get 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

t-and-f: Matzdorf's style

[ghill]

in the discussion of styles used by different high jump WR setters yesterday
I noted that Pat Matzdorf (7-6 1/4 in '71) had used a slightly different
technique, but I wasn't sure of the name. "bent-leg straddle" is what he
called it. For a perfect illustration thereof, go to the T&FN website, check
out the archive section with old cover photos and see II March, 1971.

As explained after he set his WR later in the year, here's how it worked:
"Matzdorf was nothing but aggressive attacking the bar with his bent lead
leg straddl estyle,w hich differs from the conventional straddle mainly in
that his body is bunched on top of the bar with both knees tucked up under
his body. The more usual style finds the lead leg almost straight. Matzdorf
straightns the leg just as he is belly-down on top of the bar, then
continues to rotate and lands on his back."

Said Matzdorf, "I have jumped this way ever since I started jumping as a
sophomore in high school, and I could never change. Actually I think my
style is quicker than the conventional. It's quicker off the ground. In the
straight-leg straddle the jumper stays on the ground a moment longer
swinging his leg through."

The speed component, of course, is crucial in the flop.

gh

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[ghill]

In Francis's "defense," one can at least say that he's honest, unlike an
obviously high number of his coaching brethren. He took the fall like a man
and continues to tell it pretty much like it is.

> From: "Kurt Bray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: "Kurt Bray" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 15:41:45 +
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED], [EMAIL PROTECTED],
> [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task
> 
>> From the article linked below:
> 
>>> "Francis has done his "time" and needs the chance to show he can make a
>>> contribution in athletics. Montgomery and Jones have come to that
>>> conclusion."<<
> 
> Sure Charlie has done his "time", but the problem is that he hasn't sworn
> off his "crime".  He apparently still cheerfully embraces dope in athletics
> just as much as he ever did.  Until he convincingly turns his back on dope
> he won't be welcome in the sport.
> 
> Kurt Bray
> 
> 
>> I think Francis/Jones/Montgomery are going to win this PR fight. Good
>> for them.
>> 
>> "Footnote: When Diack eventually meets with Jones he should also
>> apologise for declaring he will "talk to her like a father". Jones is
>> grieving over the recent murder of her estranged natural father."
>> 
>> http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,5909970%255E27
>> 71,00.html
>> 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> 
>> Martin
> 
> 
> _
> The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail
> 

Re: t-and-f: Brumel was a masters jumper, too

[ghill]

The yardstick explanations are most constructive, but nonetheless, the names
don't go with what students of the sport have been calling the styles since
time immemorial.

Look in the IAAF's World Record Progressions Book, by Richard Hymans and
you'll find that a record in 1887 is described as "closer to the 'Sweeney
Twist' than the scissors."

Sweeney jumped 6-4 1/4 in 1892 and in his 1940 biography refers to using the
"Eastern Cutoff."

George Horine's 6-6 1/8 of 1912 comes with the note, "Horine was the first
WR hlder to use the Western Roll, which he learnt from Dave Martin at
STanford in 1909."

Notations for subsequent record setters Beeson, Osborn, Marty are all cited
as using Western Roll. In the '36 Olympic Trials, both Johnson and Albritton
set WR of 6-9 3/4. "Johnson: Western Roll. Albritton: Straddle style,
beginning with a Western Roll takeoff with a very late transition to the
'belly roll' of the Straddle."

Then Walker a WR setter as Western Roll, then Steers, with the notation
after his 2.11 (6-11) of '41: "Straddle. Steers, who could clear 2.04 with
the Western Roll and 1.83 with the Scissors and Eastern Cutoff..."

One more Western Roll WR setter, Davis, then 15 years of straddlers
(including Thomas and Brumel) before Fosbury.

You can call them scissors jumpers if you want, but I think you'll have
trouble finding any track historian who agrees with you. The scissors is
what we all learned in elementary school. Run up to the bar, swing up the
inside leg, and as it goes down on the other side of the bar, the outside
leg swings up by it, mimicing the action of... a pair of scissors.

> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roger Ruth)
> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] (Roger Ruth)
> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 21:24:52 -0700
> To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Subject: Re: t-and-f: Brumel was a masters jumper, too
> Resent-From: ghill <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Resent-To: "e. garry hill" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Resent-Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 07:12:00 -0800
> 
> GH wrote,
> 
>> Sorry, Roger, but as I learned it (not in a position to cite any reference
>> material at this point), you have I backwards.
> 
>> The scissors begat the Eastern Cutoff (some time in the late 1800s), which
>> begat the Western Roll (George Horine in the early 1900s), which begat the
>> straddle (Steers in the '40s). And when Pat Matzdorf (the second-to-last
>> straddle WR-setter) set the WR in '71, he used a variation he called (off
>> the top of my head, "the dive straddle."
> 
> Not to put too fine a point on it, but "I" backwards is still "I."
> 
> However, more to the point, neither Brumel nor Yashchenck was a "straddle"
> jumper, although that might possibly have been a term used in the popular
> press to describe the western roll.
> 
> The "scissors," which I think is the term GH is using to mean what I
> describe as "straddle," meant what was basically an upright posture, with
> both legs preceeding the center of gravity over the bar. For those of you
> (almost everybody) who have never seen this high-jump technique, let me try
> to describe it. Sit upright on the floor with a yard-stick between your
> buttocks. Move one leg over, then the other. You've now cleared the "bar"
> with your center of gravity somewhere around your lower chest.
> 
>> The scissors begat the Eastern Cutoff (some time in the late 1800s), which
>> begat the Western Roll (George Horine in the early 1900s), which begat the
>> straddle (Steers in the '40s).
> 
> What GH refers to as the "Eastern Cutoff" probably is what I think of as
> the Eastern Roll, although I would be very surprised if its introduction
> was as early as the late 1880s. The Eastern Roll had both legs and both
> arms passing over the bar simultaneously. It was marginally more efficient
> than the scissors/straddle, only in that the center of gravity that had to
> be raised over the bar was lower than in the upright posture of the
> straddle. For those of you who have never seen this high-jump technique,
> let me try to describe it. Lie down on the floor on your non-dominant side.
> Flex your knees. Extend your arms forward. Pretend it is the bar, not the
> floor, below you. That's the Eastern Roll.
> 
> What GH refers to as the "straddle" is probably the same thing I mean by
> the Western Roll, with one leg and the arm on its side preceeding the leg
> and arm on the other side. To replicate this on your living room floor, lie
> on one side next to the yard-stick (the crossbar), and roll over it. As you
> can see, the advantage of this over the Eastern Roll technique is that the
> center of gravity is now lower than when all of the body had to be
> simultaneously over the bar.
> 
> It is this technique that had to be improved upon before other advances
> beyond those resulting from superior physique. The rules of the time only
> required that one leg preceed both arms over the bar. (Babe Didricksen lost
> the 1932 Olympics because she was ruled to have "dived" over the bar; both
> arms preceeding either leg.) No

t-and-f: Torres, Ritz, Goucher out of XC Nationals

[Post, Marty]

Adam Goucher, Jorge Torres, and Dathan Ritzenhein will forgo the Feb. 15-16
U.S. winter cross country championships to gear their training towards
making this summer's World Track and Field Championships team. The coach of
all three, Mark Wetmore, told RW Daily correspondent Mike Sandrock that, "We
rearranged their priorities this year with August in mind. All three have
hopes of advancing to Worlds." Goucher is healthy and said he is training
well after having an operation in November for a "sports hernia"--a tear in
the abdomen muscles, which Wetmore believes he could have had since the 2000
Olympic trials; Ritzenhein has had eight weeks of training after not
competing in the fall to recover from a stress fracture. Torres and
Ritzenhein are expected to contest the Big 12 Indoor Track Championships
Feb. 28-March 1.

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Martin J. Dixon]

We just went over this on the Can list. Read what he has said. Don't get it second 
hand. If
the big lie is repeated enough, it becomes truth. He does not "cheerfully embrace dope 
in
athletics". He does tell it like he thinks that it is. Everybody wants him to prostrate
himself and why should he?
Regards,
Martin

Kurt Bray wrote:

> >From the article linked below:
>
> >>"Francis has done his "time" and needs the chance to show he can make a
> >>contribution in athletics. Montgomery and Jones have come to that
> >>conclusion."<<
>
> Sure Charlie has done his "time", but the problem is that he hasn't sworn
> off his "crime".  He apparently still cheerfully embraces dope in athletics
> just as much as he ever did.  Until he convincingly turns his back on dope
> he won't be welcome in the sport.
>
> Kurt Bray
>
> >I think Francis/Jones/Montgomery are going to win this PR fight. Good
> >for them.
> >
> >"Footnote: When Diack eventually meets with Jones he should also
> >apologise for declaring he will "talk to her like a father". Jones is
> >grieving over the recent murder of her estranged natural father."
> >
> 
>>http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,5909970%255E2771,00.html
> >
> >Regards,
> >
> >
> >Martin
>
> _
> The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*
> http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

t-and-f: the highest straddle ever

[ghill]

The other day I cited Vladimir Yashchenko's 7-8 (2.34) as the last straddle
WR, but I had a nagging thought in the back of my mind that he had gone
higher, and indeed he did. Indoor WR of 7-8 1/2 (2.35), also in '78.

Re: t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Kurt Bray]

From the article linked below:



"Francis has done his "time" and needs the chance to show he can make a 
contribution in athletics. Montgomery and Jones have come to that 
conclusion."<<

Sure Charlie has done his "time", but the problem is that he hasn't sworn 
off his "crime".  He apparently still cheerfully embraces dope in athletics 
just as much as he ever did.  Until he convincingly turns his back on dope 
he won't be welcome in the sport.

Kurt Bray


I think Francis/Jones/Montgomery are going to win this PR fight. Good
for them.

"Footnote: When Diack eventually meets with Jones he should also
apologise for declaring he will "talk to her like a father". Jones is
grieving over the recent murder of her estranged natural father."

http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,5909970%255E2771,00.html

Regards,


Martin



_
The new MSN 8: advanced junk mail protection and 2 months FREE*  
http://join.msn.com/?page=features/junkmail

Re: t-and-f: Brumel was a masters jumper, too

[Dave Johnson]

I remember watching Beilschmidt clear 2.15 with a scissors during 
warm-ups at Montreal '79 World Cup.

At 2:28 PM -0800 1/28/03, ghill wrote:
last straddle WR setter was Vladimir Yashchenko (SU) at 7-8 in '78.
Coincidentally, he's also no longer with us.

Wonder who the highest living straddler is? Maybe East Germany's Rolf
Beilschmidt at 7-7 1/4?

gh


 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:52:10 -0500 (EST)
 To: t-and-f-digest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Subject: Re: t-and-f: Brumel was a masters jumper, too

 Brumel's passing got me wondering.  Who has the highest non-fosbury
 jump and what's the height.  I'm sure this has been posted here before
 but I can't seem to find it.

  Adam

t-and-f: Diack taken to task

[Martin J. Dixon]

I think Francis/Jones/Montgomery are going to win this PR fight. Good
for them.

"Footnote: When Diack eventually meets with Jones he should also
apologise for declaring he will "talk to her like a father". Jones is
grieving over the recent murder of her estranged natural father."

http://www.dailytelegraph.news.com.au/common/story_page/0,5936,5909970%255E2771,00.html

Regards,


Martin

Re: t-and-f: Brumel was a masters jumper, too

[ghill]

I'm well aware of Peter's book. The key phrase is this conditioal one: "was
reported to." As I said, nothing documented.


> From: "Post, Marty" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Wed, 29 Jan 2003 09:22:02 -0500
> To: "'ghill'" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>, track list
> <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: RE: t-and-f: Brumel was a masters jumper, too
> 
> Peter Matthews authored a book called "Track & Field Facts & Feats" (Guiness
> Superlatives Ltd., 1982).
> 
> In the section on World Records, High Jump, he wrote the following:
> "In April 1954 Dick Browning, AAU tumbling champion 1951-54, was reported to
> have somersaulted over a bar set at 2.28m/7ft 6 in."
> 
> [The IAAF WR at the time was 2.12m]
> 
> -Original Message-
> From: ghill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
> Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 7:44 PM
> To: track list
> Subject: Re: t-and-f: Brumel was a masters jumper, too
> 
> 
> there are no "ultimately banned" high jump methods that I know of; rule has
> "forever" been that you take off on one foot. And at one time  your head
> couldn't go over first, but both those restrictions predate a time when a
> 7-foot jump was anything but a dream.
> 
> I've heard stories (none documented that I know of) for years about some
> gymnast who did a few backflips, then did a roundoff over some insane
> height, but have no idea if it's possible.
> 
> gh
> 
>> From: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Reply-To: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:07:51 -0500
>> To: track list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>> Subject: Re: t-and-f: Brumel was a masters jumper, too
>> 
>> He asked what the highest non-fosbury was. Did anyone jump any higher
>> than 7-8 using some of the other methods which were ultimately banned?
>> Regards, 
>> Martin
>> 
>> ghill wrote:
>>> 
>>> last straddle WR setter was Vladimir Yashchenko (SU) at 7-8 in '78.
>>> Coincidentally, he's also no longer with us.
>>> 
>>> Wonder who the highest living straddler is? Maybe East Germany's Rolf
>>> Beilschmidt at 7-7 1/4?
>>> 
>>> gh
>>> 
 From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
 Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:52:10 -0500 (EST)
 To: t-and-f-digest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
 Subject: Re: t-and-f: Brumel was a masters jumper, too
 
 Brumel's passing got me wondering.  Who has the highest non-fosbury
 jump and what's the height.  I'm sure this has been posted here before
 but I can't seem to find it.
 
  Adam
 
 
>> 
>> -- 
>> Regards,
>> 
>> 
>> Martin 
>> 
>> 
>> Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner
>> Millard, Rouse & Rosebrugh LLP
>> Chartered Accountants
>> P.O. Box 367
>> 96 Nelson Street
>> Brantford, Ontario
>> N3T 5N3 
>> Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231
>> Telephone: (519) 759-3511
>> Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548
>> E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>> Web site: www.millards.com
>> Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm
>> 
> 

RE: t-and-f: Brumel was a masters jumper, too

[Post, Marty]

Peter Matthews authored a book called "Track & Field Facts & Feats" (Guiness
Superlatives Ltd., 1982).

In the section on World Records, High Jump, he wrote the following:
"In April 1954 Dick Browning, AAU tumbling champion 1951-54, was reported to
have somersaulted over a bar set at 2.28m/7ft 6 in."

[The IAAF WR at the time was 2.12m]

-Original Message-
From: ghill [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]
Sent: Tuesday, January 28, 2003 7:44 PM
To: track list
Subject: Re: t-and-f: Brumel was a masters jumper, too


there are no "ultimately banned" high jump methods that I know of; rule has
"forever" been that you take off on one foot. And at one time  your head
couldn't go over first, but both those restrictions predate a time when a
7-foot jump was anything but a dream.

I've heard stories (none documented that I know of) for years about some
gymnast who did a few backflips, then did a roundoff over some insane
height, but have no idea if it's possible.

gh

> From: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Reply-To: "Martin J. Dixon" <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 19:07:51 -0500
> To: track list <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
> Subject: Re: t-and-f: Brumel was a masters jumper, too
> 
> He asked what the highest non-fosbury was. Did anyone jump any higher
> than 7-8 using some of the other methods which were ultimately banned?
> Regards, 
> Martin
> 
> ghill wrote:
>> 
>> last straddle WR setter was Vladimir Yashchenko (SU) at 7-8 in '78.
>> Coincidentally, he's also no longer with us.
>> 
>> Wonder who the highest living straddler is? Maybe East Germany's Rolf
>> Beilschmidt at 7-7 1/4?
>> 
>> gh
>> 
>>> From: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Reply-To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
>>> Date: Tue, 28 Jan 2003 15:52:10 -0500 (EST)
>>> To: t-and-f-digest <[EMAIL PROTECTED]>
>>> Subject: Re: t-and-f: Brumel was a masters jumper, too
>>> 
>>> Brumel's passing got me wondering.  Who has the highest non-fosbury
>>> jump and what's the height.  I'm sure this has been posted here before
>>> but I can't seem to find it.
>>> 
>>>  Adam
>>> 
>>> 
> 
> -- 
> Regards,
> 
> 
> Martin 
> 
> 
> Martin J. Dixon, B. Math. (Hons), C.A., Partner
> Millard, Rouse & Rosebrugh LLP
> Chartered Accountants
> P.O. Box 367 
> 96 Nelson Street 
> Brantford, Ontario
> N3T 5N3  
> Direct Dial: (519) 759-3708 Ext. 231
> Telephone: (519) 759-3511
> Private Facsimile: (519) 759-8548
> E-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED]
> Web site: www.millards.com
> Practice Areas: www.millards.com/htm/profs/m_mjdixo.htm
> 

t-and-f: NYTimes.com Article: Senators Favor Overhaul of U.S. Olympic Group

[francicash]

This article from NYTimes.com 
has been sent to you by [EMAIL PROTECTED]



Senators Favor Overhaul of U.S. Olympic Group

January 29, 2003
By RICHARD SANDOMIR 




 

WASHINGTON, Jan. 28 - The monthlong ethics crisis at the
United States Olympic Committee that has focused on Lloyd
Ward, its chief executive, led several United States
senators today to call for a drastic overhaul of the
beleaguered organization's structure. 

The changes are expected to come by revising the Amateur
Sports Act of 1978. They could shrink the 123-member board
of directors to fewer than 20 and sharply pare the
21-person executive committee. 

In addition, Senator Ben Nighthorse Campbell, Republican of
Colorado, said at a Senate Commerce Committee hearing today
that he favored some form of federal regulation of the
Olympic committee. 

"For 20 years, I've opposed federal oversight over U.S.O.C.
decision-making," he said. "The time has come now to
reconsider that situation." 

Ward and Marty Mankamyer, the U.S.O.C. president, have a
fractious relationship, but today they encouraged
Congressional action to fix what they called flaws in the
U.S.O.C. governance and to streamline their organization. 

"This structure will not serve athletes or deliver on our
mandate," Ward said. "We have five directors for every
staff member. That's top heavy." 

Ward told the senators that he would resign if the U.S.O.C.
board and executive committee asked him to, and he
suggested that Mankamyer stand for a similar vote of
confidence. In a written statement that he did not deliver
orally, he said: "I was offered the opportunity to walk
away from all of this emotional turmoil with a very
attractive financial settlement if I would simply go
quietly. I refused." 

He declined to comment afterward, and Mankamyer said she
was unaware of such an offer. 

Turmoil inside the Olympic committee is nothing new, but
recently it has grown far noisier than usual. Its ethics
committee found this month that Ward had "created the
appearance of a conflict of interest" in telling a staff
member to provide help to a venture proposed by his brother
and a childhood friend to supply backup power for the
coming Pan American Games in August. 

The Olympic executive committee concurred with the finding,
18-3, but its refusal to impose heavy sanctions on Ward led
to the resignations of Brian Derwin, a U.S.O.C. board
member; Patrick Rodgers, its ethics officer; and three
members of the ethics committee. Ward's punishment, if any,
is to be financial, in the reduction of his bonus. 

Ward reiterated today that he made an "error in judgment"
but said his "hands off" help, through the staff member, to
his brother's company's proposal, was done to benefit
athletes, given his brother's knowledge of power shortages
in the Dominican Republic, where the Pan American Games
will be held. 

The infighting at the committee has continued unabated;
last week seven top committee officials accused Mankamyer
of working to undermine Ward and of interfering with the
ethics investigation; they demanded her resignation last
week. 

"Scandal seems to follow the U.S.O.C. like dogs following a
meat wagon," Senator Ron Wyden, Democrat of Oregon, said. 

Campbell described the aftermath of the ethics
investigation as "an Olympic-size food fight." 

That fight continued at the witness table, when Ward and
Rodgers, the former ethics officer, engaged in a testy
debate over whether Ward should have been more seriously
penalized by the ethics committee and whether Rodgers made
unauthorized forays into the electronic calendar kept in
Ward's computer. 

"It was and remains clear to me that Lloyd Ward abused his
position," Rodgers said. "This is a case of it's
everybody's fault but Mr. Ward's." 

Rodgers was accused by the ethics committee of not
providing Ward with the requisite ethics counseling when he
first learned of Ward's use of a staff member to advance
the proposal made by his brother's company. Rodgers said he
had given Ward counsel several times. 

Ward said: "He has his own reason to tell half-truths and
innuendoes. He is conducting his own personal vendetta." 

The bickering between Ward and Rodgers, which occurred as
Mankamyer looked on, prompted Senator John B. Breaux,
Democrat of Louisiana, to provide occupational counsel. 

"I just hope none of you at the table have to work together
in the future," he said. 

The conduct of the ethics committee also came under
scrutiny, including whether Kenneth M. Duberstein, the
panel's chairman, had a conflict of interest. The
Duberstein Group, his consulting concern, lobbies the
Senate on behalf of General Motors, and Ward is a member of
G.M.'s board. 

"I was generally aware around 2000 that Mr. Ward had joined
the board of General Motors," Duberstein said under
questioning by Senator John McCain, Republican of Arizona,
chairman of the Commerce Committee. "We have no business
with boards of directors." 

He continued, "At no time did it occur to me that th

t-and-f: Hawaii confirmation

[Martin J. Dixon]

"...and Carmyn James, coach at the University of Hawaii, said they
trained on the university's new, state-of-the-art track for about two
weeks from the end of December to early January under the supervision of
Hansen and Francis. James said they alternated training on the track and
in the weight room.

"There was no one around," she said. "They were able to train in peace."

James said she has known Hansen for 15 years, having coached him at the
University of British Columbia and later worked with him at the SPS
(Strength Power Speed) Athletic Training Group in Vancouver. James
described Hansen as a technical "whiz" who met Jones and Montgomery
while giving coaching seminars in North Carolina, their training base
until December.

She said Hansen told her that he was instructed not to comment publicly
about his relationship with Jones and Montgomery."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A57720-2003Jan28.html

You have to enter a YOB and country to access this but it is no big
deal.

Regards,
 
 
Martin