RE: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem?
Keino did have excellent range - he ran the 5000 in Tokyo '64. But this in no way detracts from his reputation as a miler or 1500m man. I was a high school kid at the time, but my memory is that Keino was regarded, by the public at least, as predominantly a miler. I don't have the figures in front of me, but I believe for a while he was the second fastest miler ever, behind Ryun's 3:51. Also recall that Keino took the silver medal in the 1500m in the same Olympiad in which he took the gold in the steeple. So clearly those two events are not (at least in Keino's case) incompatible. Kurt Bray Was Keino predominantly a mile/1500 runner? I recall having read a biographical sketch a while ago that indicated he was running 5 and 10Ks and essentially moved down to the 1500 for the 68 Olympics. That is not to say that he did not run the 1500 throughout his career, but he bears some resemblance to Aouita and other runners with a big range and, to that extent, is not the best example to make the point that a 1500 specialist can move up effectively to the steeple. Bill Bahnfleth At 11:38 PM 1/7/2002 +, Kurt Bray wrote: It is questionable what Keino's achievements tell us about the prospects for a 3:38 runner of today, since it is difficult to directly compare times across eras in a meaningful way. My point was that it is possible for a talented miler to also become a top steepler. Kurt Bray If Kip Keino is an example of a 1500m runner moving up to the steeple, it doesn't do much to advance the argument for 3:38 types having any more success in the steeple than they would in the 1500. A 3:38 1500 is equivalent to about 8:13-8:16 in the steeple. Any steepler who can run in the 8:05 range or better can easily run 3:34.90 (probably considerably faster). Floyd Highfill -Original Message- _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. _ William P. Bahnfleth, Ph.D., P.E. Associate Professor Department of Architectural Engineering The Pennsylvania State University 224 Engineering Unit A University Park, PA 16802-1416 USA voice: 814.863.2076 / fax: 814.863.4789 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/faculty/bahnfleth.htm _ _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
RE: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem?
Actually, Kip Keino was very proud of his ability to compete at the world level over a wide range of distances. He ran a casual 1:46.4 in an Olympic warm-up meet in Munich two or three days before the start of the 1972 Games -- the same meet in which John Smith suffered the hamstring pull in a 200m race which eventually (in my opinion) cost him two gold medals. I put warm-up in quotes because it was a quite cold early September evening, not at all conducive to running fast, yet Kip PR'd in impressive fashion. jim dunaway At 03:46 PM 1/8/02, you wrote: Keino did have excellent range - he ran the 5000 in Tokyo '64. But this in no way detracts from his reputation as a miler or 1500m man. I was a high school kid at the time, but my memory is that Keino was regarded, by the public at least, as predominantly a miler. I don't have the figures in front of me, but I believe for a while he was the second fastest miler ever, behind Ryun's 3:51. Also recall that Keino took the silver medal in the 1500m in the same Olympiad in which he took the gold in the steeple. So clearly those two events are not (at least in Keino's case) incompatible. Kurt Bray Was Keino predominantly a mile/1500 runner? I recall having read a biographical sketch a while ago that indicated he was running 5 and 10Ks and essentially moved down to the 1500 for the 68 Olympics. That is not to say that he did not run the 1500 throughout his career, but he bears some resemblance to Aouita and other runners with a big range and, to that extent, is not the best example to make the point that a 1500 specialist can move up effectively to the steeple. Bill Bahnfleth At 11:38 PM 1/7/2002 +, Kurt Bray wrote: It is questionable what Keino's achievements tell us about the prospects for a 3:38 runner of today, since it is difficult to directly compare times across eras in a meaningful way. My point was that it is possible for a talented miler to also become a top steepler. Kurt Bray If Kip Keino is an example of a 1500m runner moving up to the steeple, it doesn't do much to advance the argument for 3:38 types having any more success in the steeple than they would in the 1500. A 3:38 1500 is equivalent to about 8:13-8:16 in the steeple. Any steepler who can run in the 8:05 range or better can easily run 3:34.90 (probably considerably faster). Floyd Highfill -Original Message- _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp. _ William P. Bahnfleth, Ph.D., P.E. Associate Professor Department of Architectural Engineering The Pennsylvania State University 224 Engineering Unit A University Park, PA 16802-1416 USA voice: 814.863.2076 / fax: 814.863.4789 e-mail: [EMAIL PROTECTED] http://www.engr.psu.edu/ae/faculty/bahnfleth.htm _ _ MSN Photos is the easiest way to share and print your photos: http://photos.msn.com/support/worldwide.aspx
RE: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem?
In a message dated Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:49:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was a high school kid at the time, but my memory is that Keino was regarded, by the public at least, as predominantly a miler. Nah, he was predominantly Kenyan. 'nuff said. gh
Re: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem?
Naw, he was predominantly the guy with the hat who threw it off just before sprinting to victory. td - Original Message - From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Tuesday, January 08, 2002 5:01 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem? In a message dated Tue, 8 Jan 2002 10:49:50 AM Eastern Standard Time, Kurt Bray [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: I was a high school kid at the time, but my memory is that Keino was regarded, by the public at least, as predominantly a miler. Nah, he was predominantly Kenyan. 'nuff said. gh
Re: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem?
James Dunaway wrote: Actually, Kip Keino was very proud of his ability to compete at the world level over a wide range of distances. He ran a casual 1:46.4 in an Olympic warm-up meet in Munich two or three days before the start of the 1972 Games I was at that meet. I was very impressed by Keino and thought that he would repeat as 1500 champ based on what I saw in that race. Perhaps he would have had he adopted the same tactic that he did in '68 against Ryun. If he had gone hard early maybe he wouldn't have been outkicked by Vasalla (sp?). This meet also had an unpleasant side for me. Dick Bruggeman, the athlete I was coaching in the 400 hurdles, aggravated a shin splints problem in a 4X400 race and was unable to run at anything like the level he did at the trials. -- the same meet in which John Smith suffered the hamstring pull in a 200m race which eventually (in my opinion) cost him two gold medals. As I recall, didn't Smith injure himself at another meet in Kempton a few days before this warm-up meet in the Olympic Stadium? I put warm-up in quotes because it was a quite cold early September evening, not at all conducive to running fast, yet Kip PR'd in impressive fashion. jim dunaway -- Wayne T. Armbrust, Ph.D. [EMAIL PROTECTED] Computomarx™ 3604 Grant Ct. Columbia MO 65203-5800 USA (573) 445-6675 (voice FAX) http://www.Computomarx.com Know the difference between right and wrong... Always give your best effort... Treat others the way you'd like to be treated... - Coach Bill Sudeck (1926-2000)
RE: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem?
One potential solution for US 1500m elites who can't get to 3:34... Move to the steeple. I doubt a miler who didn't have a decent shot at 3:34.90 would be good enough to make our team in the Steeplechase, much less make the Olympic Final or win a medal. One of our better Steeplers (Olympic caliber) Tony Famiglietti has PR's of 3:40.xx and 4:00.xx. He would almost certainly be faster, but has concentrated on the Steeple for years. I don't know Tim Broe or Tom Chorny's PR's, or those of the other top American Steeplers, but Broe is certainly well below 3:41/3:59y ability. I know he has run at that level in relay 1500s/Miles. It takes that kind of ability just to make the team. Croghan may be retiring, but we have the three guys above and Dobert and about 5 other guys who are competent steeplers and at least 3:40-level in the 1500. They may not have actually run it, but they could. If you have no shot at 3:34.89, and you know it, you are probably a 3:38-39 level guy with enough years at or near that level to know you are NOT going to be struck by lightning and suddenly rip a 3:34. If you have run 3:37, you would believe a 3:34.89 would be possible. But this should not lead you to believe you can suddenly become an 8:15 Steepler. Even if I am COMPLETELY wrong and a 3:38 guy could just jump into the Steeple and somehow come up with an 8:15-17 and win the US Trials, then go on to a championship meet and make the final, he would find it tougher than the 1500 final. The Steeple has alleged teenagers running sub-8:00 and a bunch from Morocco and Kenya that make a white guy in the top-ten (in any race) a rare occurrence. /Brian McEwen -Original Message- From: Chapman, Robert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 11:28 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem? One potential solution for US 1500m elites who can't get to 3:34... Move to the steeple. We've had 3 (or more) athletes run the A standard ***at the US champs/Oly Trials*** for as long as I can remember. Some may think that is a cop-out, but the last time I checked, an Oly medal in the SC is worth just as much as a medal in the 1500m. Brian Diemer told me so, so it has to be true!!! RC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 11:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: 1500 meter standards for IAAF Worlds Lowering the standard may encourage athletes to strive higher, but the problem since 1989 has usually been that we have not been able to produce three athletes to run under the standard. Thus at the Nationals, the winner may or may not have the standard, and someone in 4th or higher is waiting to see if they get to go. Bottom line: With the standard so stiff, why try and peak for the USATF championships, when the people who will go to the Worlds are those that race in Europe? Make the final, jog around the track at 64 pace, and run 3:45. Peak to run fast in mid-July to get the standard. Other thought: With the 1500m standard so strong, what is the 5k and 10k standards? They have to be as stiff (13:15? 27:45?). I benefited both ways from someone not running the A standard. But it was difficult to stay focused when I did not know for sure if I was going. Can this lead to some pre-selections being made in the future? I have always thought that if you showed fitness, and had the A standard in the time frame allocated by the IAAF, you should be preselected with the understanding that you would race in the USATF meet. Then, you could train to peak at the correct time, which is what was most important to me. Jim Spivey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vanderbilt Women's cross-country assistant track coach
Re: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem?
Mark Rowland - 3:52 miler moved to the steeple and won a silver in '88 in Seoul. He had to work bloody hard on drills and flexibility to make the transition, but he proved that it can be done if one applies oneself to the task at hand. Mcewen, Brian T wrote: One potential solution for US 1500m elites who can't get to 3:34... Move to the steeple. I doubt a miler who didn't have a decent shot at 3:34.90 would be good enough to make our team in the Steeplechase, much less make the Olympic Final or win a medal. One of our better Steeplers (Olympic caliber) Tony Famiglietti has PR's of 3:40.xx and 4:00.xx. He would almost certainly be faster, but has concentrated on the Steeple for years. I don't know Tim Broe or Tom Chorny's PR's, or those of the other top American Steeplers, but Broe is certainly well below 3:41/3:59y ability. I know he has run at that level in relay 1500s/Miles. It takes that kind of ability just to make the team. Croghan may be retiring, but we have the three guys above and Dobert and about 5 other guys who are competent steeplers and at least 3:40-level in the 1500. They may not have actually run it, but they could. If you have no shot at 3:34.89, and you know it, you are probably a 3:38-39 level guy with enough years at or near that level to know you are NOT going to be struck by lightning and suddenly rip a 3:34. If you have run 3:37, you would believe a 3:34.89 would be possible. But this should not lead you to believe you can suddenly become an 8:15 Steepler. Even if I am COMPLETELY wrong and a 3:38 guy could just jump into the Steeple and somehow come up with an 8:15-17 and win the US Trials, then go on to a championship meet and make the final, he would find it tougher than the 1500 final. The Steeple has alleged teenagers running sub-8:00 and a bunch from Morocco and Kenya that make a white guy in the top-ten (in any race) a rare occurrence. /Brian McEwen -Original Message- From: Chapman, Robert [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 11:28 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem? One potential solution for US 1500m elites who can't get to 3:34... Move to the steeple. We've had 3 (or more) athletes run the A standard ***at the US champs/Oly Trials*** for as long as I can remember. Some may think that is a cop-out, but the last time I checked, an Oly medal in the SC is worth just as much as a medal in the 1500m. Brian Diemer told me so, so it has to be true!!! RC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 11:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: 1500 meter standards for IAAF Worlds Lowering the standard may encourage athletes to strive higher, but the problem since 1989 has usually been that we have not been able to produce three athletes to run under the standard. Thus at the Nationals, the winner may or may not have the standard, and someone in 4th or higher is waiting to see if they get to go. Bottom line: With the standard so stiff, why try and peak for the USATF championships, when the people who will go to the Worlds are those that race in Europe? Make the final, jog around the track at 64 pace, and run 3:45. Peak to run fast in mid-July to get the standard. Other thought: With the 1500m standard so strong, what is the 5k and 10k standards? They have to be as stiff (13:15? 27:45?). I benefited both ways from someone not running the A standard. But it was difficult to stay focused when I did not know for sure if I was going. Can this lead to some pre-selections being made in the future? I have always thought that if you showed fitness, and had the A standard in the time frame allocated by the IAAF, you should be preselected with the understanding that you would race in the USATF meet. Then, you could train to peak at the correct time, which is what was most important to me. Jim Spivey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vanderbilt Women's cross-country assistant track coach
Re: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem?
Mark Rowland - 3:52 miler moved to the steeple and won a silver in '88 in Seoul. He had to work bloody hard on drills and flexibility to make the transition, but he proved that it can be done if one applies oneself to the task at hand. It's not common but, sure, it can be done. Recall that Kip Keino won an Olympic gold medal in the steeple. I believe he was a miler of some note. Kurt Bray _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
RE: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem?
If Kip Keino is an example of a 1500m runner moving up to the steeple, it doesn't do much to advance the argument for 3:38 types having any more success in the steeple than they would in the 1500. A 3:38 1500 is equivalent to about 8:13-8:16 in the steeple. Any steepler who can run in the 8:05 range or better can easily run 3:34.90 (probably considerably faster). Floyd Highfill -Original Message- From: Kurt Bray [SMTP:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Monday, January 07, 2002 2:47 PM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED]; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Cc: Subject:Re: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem? Mark Rowland - 3:52 miler moved to the steeple and won a silver in '88 in Seoul. He had to work bloody hard on drills and flexibility to make the transition, but he proved that it can be done if one applies oneself to the task at hand. It's not common but, sure, it can be done. Recall that Kip Keino won an Olympic gold medal in the steeple. I believe he was a miler of some note. Kurt Bray _ Send and receive Hotmail on your mobile device: http://mobile.msn.com
RE: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem?
It is questionable what Keino's achievements tell us about the prospects for a 3:38 runner of today, since it is difficult to directly compare times across eras in a meaningful way. My point was that it is possible for a talented miler to also become a top steepler. Kurt Bray If Kip Keino is an example of a 1500m runner moving up to the steeple, it doesn't do much to advance the argument for 3:38 types having any more success in the steeple than they would in the 1500. A 3:38 1500 is equivalent to about 8:13-8:16 in the steeple. Any steepler who can run in the 8:05 range or better can easily run 3:34.90 (probably considerably faster). Floyd Highfill -Original Message- _ Get your FREE download of MSN Explorer at http://explorer.msn.com/intl.asp.
t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem?
One potential solution for US 1500m elites who can't get to 3:34... Move to the steeple. We've had 3 (or more) athletes run the A standard ***at the US champs/Oly Trials*** for as long as I can remember. Some may think that is a cop-out, but the last time I checked, an Oly medal in the SC is worth just as much as a medal in the 1500m. Brian Diemer told me so, so it has to be true!!! RC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 11:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: 1500 meter standards for IAAF Worlds Lowering the standard may encourage athletes to strive higher, but the problem since 1989 has usually been that we have not been able to produce three athletes to run under the standard. Thus at the Nationals, the winner may or may not have the standard, and someone in 4th or higher is waiting to see if they get to go. Bottom line: With the standard so stiff, why try and peak for the USATF championships, when the people who will go to the Worlds are those that race in Europe? Make the final, jog around the track at 64 pace, and run 3:45. Peak to run fast in mid-July to get the standard. Other thought: With the 1500m standard so strong, what is the 5k and 10k standards? They have to be as stiff (13:15? 27:45?). I benefited both ways from someone not running the A standard. But it was difficult to stay focused when I did not know for sure if I was going. Can this lead to some pre-selections being made in the future? I have always thought that if you showed fitness, and had the A standard in the time frame allocated by the IAAF, you should be preselected with the understanding that you would race in the USATF meet. Then, you could train to peak at the correct time, which is what was most important to me. Jim Spivey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vanderbilt Women's cross-country assistant track coach
RE: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem?
Many have tried and many have failed. I remember Liquori telling me once he was going to run the steeple. With a big smile I said Bring it on. malmo -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] On Behalf Of Chapman, Robert Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 11:28 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: RE: Solution for 1500m standard problem? One potential solution for US 1500m elites who can't get to 3:34... Move to the steeple. We've had 3 (or more) athletes run the A standard ***at the US champs/Oly Trials*** for as long as I can remember. Some may think that is a cop-out, but the last time I checked, an Oly medal in the SC is worth just as much as a medal in the 1500m. Brian Diemer told me so, so it has to be true!!! RC -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Saturday, January 05, 2002 11:00 AM To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: 1500 meter standards for IAAF Worlds Lowering the standard may encourage athletes to strive higher, but the problem since 1989 has usually been that we have not been able to produce three athletes to run under the standard. Thus at the Nationals, the winner may or may not have the standard, and someone in 4th or higher is waiting to see if they get to go. Bottom line: With the standard so stiff, why try and peak for the USATF championships, when the people who will go to the Worlds are those that race in Europe? Make the final, jog around the track at 64 pace, and run 3:45. Peak to run fast in mid-July to get the standard. Other thought: With the 1500m standard so strong, what is the 5k and 10k standards? They have to be as stiff (13:15? 27:45?). I benefited both ways from someone not running the A standard. But it was difficult to stay focused when I did not know for sure if I was going. Can this lead to some pre-selections being made in the future? I have always thought that if you showed fitness, and had the A standard in the time frame allocated by the IAAF, you should be preselected with the understanding that you would race in the USATF meet. Then, you could train to peak at the correct time, which is what was most important to me. Jim Spivey [EMAIL PROTECTED] Vanderbilt Women's cross-country assistant track coach
