Re: t-and-f: YES ALL ELITE ARE ON DRUGS
Yes they too are too poor to buy drugs.and so also is those who live in the suburbs . What dose this have to do with drugs in track??? [EMAIL PROTECTED] wrote: Netters Ben Hall writes: In response too mantis: That is an idiotic statement. Mantis wrote: The question is Do you have to take the drugs to be an elite athlete? You would think that some people might learn... but Ben Hall Came to the same conclusion I already have... My wife is elite she is not nor ever has done drugs. You are wrong. Again. Note on the idea that African are too poor to buy drugs. Might I remind us all inner city dwellers are too poor to buy drugs?
t-and-f: YES ALL ELITE ARE ON DRUGS
The question is Do you have to take the drugs to be an elite athlete? Hell yes. -Original Message- From: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000 4:08 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping The "16-17 year olds" in Kenya ... are not always 16-17 years old. Not unless you believe that a 15 or 16 year old boy can run 27:43. This was submitted during the World juniors: 1 (M) As for the other finals, the 10,000 was a race for the Kenyans and Ethiopians only. After the first serious increment in pace, only Robert Kipchumba, Duncan Lebo, Abraha Hadush and Kedebe Tekeste were left. With Lebo setting the pace, the Ethiopians were gone very soon too. In the final kilometers, Kipchumba proved the strongest setting a strong 28:54.37 in the 30 degrees Celsius heat. His performance, I hate to admit, does cast doubts on the year-of-birth that was listed as '84 (Kipchumba ran a 27:43 earlier this year). If he WAS born in 1984 ... he would have been 15 and many months, or 16 years old when he ran 27:43. Why would a nation say that some of their top young athletes are 16, 17, or 18? So they can set World Junior Records this season and next. 12:54 WJR for 5000m? Come on. -Original Message- From: Richard McCann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 1:57 PM To: malmo Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping At 07:14 PM 11/1/2000 -0800, malmo wrote.. Ah, there's that rhetorical shield of yours again. Because RC hasn't seen the evidence it doesn't exist. If there is no documentation then it doesn't exist. Perhaps I'm being too demanding given the general lack of documentation about much of anything in Africa. (One colleague has a book about development economics entitled "Planning with Facts.") However, my point is that the claim that East Africans are using EPO to gain most if not all of their advantage is simply illogical in the face of the facts about performances by very young runners in that region. The accusers have to demonstrate somehow that 16 to 17 year olds in Kenya are getting EPO while Europeans and American teenagers with substantially higher disposable incomes (and a demonstrated greater preponderance of drug use, including steroids) apparently are not. Just saying "they're just running too damn fast" is in absolutely no way a legitimate means of making these accusations. As a counterpoint, I will repeat my belief that the Chinese women's performances in 1993 were enhanced in some manner (a belief which may have been confirmed with the recent Chinese drug enforcement actions). However, I make that statement based on several logical steps: the performances involved sudden dramatic improvements; the improvements were for a relatively large group of athletes within a concentrated period of time; the WR in at least one event was broken repeatedly over several days by many athletes; one athlete broke at least 4 WRs (multiple times in 1 event) in a 5 day period, none of which have been approached again; even though the athletes showed excellent performances beforehand (the 1993 WCs), nothing indicated this level of condition; none of the athletes again repeated performances at these levels subsequently; the athletes in question trained together under controlled conditions for an extended period of time (i.e., years, not weeks); the Chinese government has substantial resources and good institutional control throughout the nation. Even the 1997 Chinese performances pale in comparison. If those making similar accusations about EPO usage by Africans can construct a similar line of reasoning, then I'll start listening, but until then, they're just blowin' smoke as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe anyone has ever suggested that either the Kenyan or Ethiopian governments has, or even possess the ability or will to administer an American-style doping program. These countries, both known for a long history of neglect of its citizenry, prove each year that getting travel visas in order is a monumental task. malmo You only make my point here. There are virtually NO well-organized, effective institutions in those countries (several of my former ag econ classmates have worked on development projects in Kenya and other African nations). To create the wave of performances at such young ages, before these athletes have traveled to Europe where they might gain access to EPO, would require a concerted effort by a well-organized institution. Unless Nike or Fila is making such an investment, (and I suspect shareholders would question such expenditures, however hidden, in these countries, even if as "market development;" and why not spend similar money in other countries?), there are no other institutions ready and able. Richard McCann
RE: t-and-f: YES ALL ELITE ARE ON DRUGS
That is an idiotic statement. I will bet every cent that I have and ever will have that Derrick Adkins, the 1996 Olympic Gold Medallist in the 400m Hurdles, has never taken performance enhancing drugs. Was he elite? YES Did he take drugs? NO Therefore- YOU'RE WRONG -Original Message- From: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]]On Behalf Of [EMAIL PROTECTED] Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 4:58 PM To: Mcewen, Brian T; [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: t-and-f: YES ALL ELITE ARE ON DRUGS The question is Do you have to take the drugs to be an elite athlete? Hell yes. -Original Message- From: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000 4:08 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping The "16-17 year olds" in Kenya ... are not always 16-17 years old. Not unless you believe that a 15 or 16 year old boy can run 27:43. This was submitted during the World juniors: 1 (M) As for the other finals, the 10,000 was a race for the Kenyans and Ethiopians only. After the first serious increment in pace, only Robert Kipchumba, Duncan Lebo, Abraha Hadush and Kedebe Tekeste were left. With Lebo setting the pace, the Ethiopians were gone very soon too. In the final kilometers, Kipchumba proved the strongest setting a strong 28:54.37 in the 30 degrees Celsius heat. His performance, I hate to admit, does cast doubts on the year-of-birth that was listed as '84 (Kipchumba ran a 27:43 earlier this year). If he WAS born in 1984 ... he would have been 15 and many months, or 16 years old when he ran 27:43. Why would a nation say that some of their top young athletes are 16, 17, or 18? So they can set World Junior Records this season and next. 12:54 WJR for 5000m? Come on. -Original Message- From: Richard McCann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 1:57 PM To: malmo Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping At 07:14 PM 11/1/2000 -0800, malmo wrote.. Ah, there's that rhetorical shield of yours again. Because RC hasn't seen the evidence it doesn't exist. If there is no documentation then it doesn't exist. Perhaps I'm being too demanding given the general lack of documentation about much of anything in Africa. (One colleague has a book about development economics entitled "Planning with Facts.") However, my point is that the claim that East Africans are using EPO to gain most if not all of their advantage is simply illogical in the face of the facts about performances by very young runners in that region. The accusers have to demonstrate somehow that 16 to 17 year olds in Kenya are getting EPO while Europeans and American teenagers with substantially higher disposable incomes (and a demonstrated greater preponderance of drug use, including steroids) apparently are not. Just saying "they're just running too damn fast" is in absolutely no way a legitimate means of making these accusations. As a counterpoint, I will repeat my belief that the Chinese women's performances in 1993 were enhanced in some manner (a belief which may have been confirmed with the recent Chinese drug enforcement actions). However, I make that statement based on several logical steps: the performances involved sudden dramatic improvements; the improvements were for a relatively large group of athletes within a concentrated period of time; the WR in at least one event was broken repeatedly over several days by many athletes; one athlete broke at least 4 WRs (multiple times in 1 event) in a 5 day period, none of which have been approached again; even though the athletes showed excellent performances beforehand (the 1993 WCs), nothing indicated this level of condition; none of the athletes again repeated performances at these levels subsequently; the athletes in question trained together under controlled conditions for an extended period of time (i.e., years, not weeks); the Chinese government has substantial resources and good institutional control throughout the nation. Even the 1997 Chinese performances pale in comparison. If those making similar accusations about EPO usage by Africans can construct a similar line of reasoning, then I'll start listening, but until then, they're just blowin' smoke as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe anyone has ever suggested that either the Kenyan or Ethiopian governments has, or even possess the ability or will to administer an American-style doping program. These countries, both known for a long history of neglect of its citizenry, prove each year that getting travel visas in order is a monumental task. malmo You only make my point here. There are virtually NO well-organized, effective institutions in those countries (several of my former ag econ classmates have worked on development projects in Ke
Re: t-and-f: YES ALL ELITE ARE ON DRUGS
Before everyone goes nuts responding to yet another mindless post, might I suggest that we all just ignore it. I can't believe the energy and time wasted by members of this list(myself included) on people, especially those who won't identify themselves, who make these ridiculous statements. It's just not worth it folks. Walt Murphy
Re: t-and-f: YES ALL ELITE ARE ON DRUGS
Before everyone goes nuts responding to yet another mindless post, might I suggest that we all just ignore it. I can't believe the energy and time wasted by members of this list(myself included) on people, especially those who won't identify themselves, who make these ridiculous statements. If they have something intelligent to add to the discussion, fine...otherwise, it's just not worth it folks. Walt Murphy
Re: t-and-f: YES ALL ELITE ARE ON DRUGS
We can accept Jim Ryun running what, 3:51 for a mile as a junior some 35 years ago with nothing but admiration and respect, but 27:40 and 12:54 today are considered absolutely impossible unless they are on some drugs?!?!?!?!?!?!??!!??! This seem like a ridiculus double-standard to anyone else? Dan (out pounding the roads in hopes of achieveing what apparently only the Africans have discovered by now...success through honest SCARRY hard work, 2000) In a message dated Thu, 2 Nov 2000 5:04:32 PM Eastern Standard Time, [EMAIL PROTECTED] writes: The question is Do you have to take the drugs to be an elite athlete? Hell yes. -Original Message- From: Mcewen, Brian T [EMAIL PROTECTED] To: [EMAIL PROTECTED] [EMAIL PROTECTED] Date: Thursday, November 02, 2000 4:08 PM Subject: RE: t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping The "16-17 year olds" in Kenya ... are not always 16-17 years old. Not unless you believe that a 15 or 16 year old boy can run 27:43. This was submitted during the World juniors: 1 (M) As for the other finals, the 10,000 was a race for the Kenyans and Ethiopians only. After the first serious increment in pace, only Robert Kipchumba, Duncan Lebo, Abraha Hadush and Kedebe Tekeste were left. With Lebo setting the pace, the Ethiopians were gone very soon too. In the final kilometers, Kipchumba proved the strongest setting a strong 28:54.37 in the 30 degrees Celsius heat. His performance, I hate to admit, does cast doubts on the year-of-birth that was listed as '84 (Kipchumba ran a 27:43 earlier this year). If he WAS born in 1984 ... he would have been 15 and many months, or 16 years old when he ran 27:43. Why would a nation say that some of their top young athletes are 16, 17, or 18? So they can set World Junior Records this season and next. 12:54 WJR for 5000m? Come on. -Original Message- From: Richard McCann [mailto:[EMAIL PROTECTED]] Sent: Thursday, November 02, 2000 1:57 PM To: malmo Cc: [EMAIL PROTECTED] Subject: RE: t-and-f: Not EVERYONE is doping At 07:14 PM 11/1/2000 -0800, malmo wrote.. Ah, there's that rhetorical shield of yours again. Because RC hasn't seen the evidence it doesn't exist. If there is no documentation then it doesn't exist. Perhaps I'm being too demanding given the general lack of documentation about much of anything in Africa. (One colleague has a book about development economics entitled "Planning with Facts.") However, my point is that the claim that East Africans are using EPO to gain most if not all of their advantage is simply illogical in the face of the facts about performances by very young runners in that region. The accusers have to demonstrate somehow that 16 to 17 year olds in Kenya are getting EPO while Europeans and American teenagers with substantially higher disposable incomes (and a demonstrated greater preponderance of drug use, including steroids) apparently are not. Just saying "they're just running too damn fast" is in absolutely no way a legitimate means of making these accusations. As a counterpoint, I will repeat my belief that the Chinese women's performances in 1993 were enhanced in some manner (a belief which may have been confirmed with the recent Chinese drug enforcement actions). However, I make that statement based on several logical steps: the performances involved sudden dramatic improvements; the improvements were for a relatively large group of athletes within a concentrated period of time; the WR in at least one event was broken repeatedly over several days by many athletes; one athlete broke at least 4 WRs (multiple times in 1 event) in a 5 day period, none of which have been approached again; even though the athletes showed excellent performances beforehand (the 1993 WCs), nothing indicated this level of condition; none of the athletes again repeated performances at these levels subsequently; the athletes in question trained together under controlled conditions for an extended period of time (i.e., years, not weeks); the Chinese government has substantial resources and good institutional control throughout the nation. Even the 1997 Chinese performances pale in comparison. If those making similar accusations about EPO usage by Africans can construct a similar line of reasoning, then I'll start listening, but until then, they're just blowin' smoke as far as I'm concerned. I don't believe anyone has ever suggested that either the Kenyan or Ethiopian governments has, or even possess the ability or will to administer an American-style doping program. These countries, both known for a long history of neglect of its citizenry, prove each year that getting travel visas in order is a monumental task. malmo You only make my point here. There are virtually NO well-organized, effective institutions in those countries (several of my former ag econ classmates have worked on development projects in Kenya and other African nations). To create the wave of performances at such young ages, before
Re: t-and-f: YES ALL ELITE ARE ON DRUGS
Netters Ben Hall writes: In response too mantis: That is an idiotic statement. Mantis wrote: The question is Do you have to take the drugs to be an elite athlete? You would think that some people might learn... but Ben Hall Came to the same conclusion I already have... My wife is elite she is not nor ever has done drugs. You are wrong. Again. Note on the idea that African are too poor to buy drugs. Might I remind us all inner city dwellers are too poor to buy drugs?
Re: t-and-f: YES ALL ELITE ARE ON DRUGS
I've just received five copies of a message sent under this subject line. I'll reprint it below, just in case anyone was fortunate enough to miss it. It is not clear to me why subscribers to this list ([EMAIL PROTECTED] edu) would receive mail addressed to [EMAIL PROTECTED]. It is even less clear why the sender would have sent it to both lists, if the recipients are the same. It is yet less clear why he would apparently have sent it *twice* to both lists. There is no possible way it could be made clear, how the sender could have managed to clog my in-box with *five* copies, since I was not included in the personal addressees who might possibly not have been included in the two copies sent to each of the t-and-f@darkwing or t-and-f@lists. Give us a break. It's bad enough for people to reply both to the list and to individual poster (since he/she will receive the list posting). But *five* copies to everyone on the list?? Cheers? The original post I'm complaining about receiving five copies of: Before everyone goes nuts responding to yet another mindless post, might I suggest that we all just ignore it. I can't believe the energy and time wasted by members of this list(myself included) on people, especially those who won't identify themselves, who make these ridiculous statements. If they have something intelligent to add to the discussion, fine...otherwise, it's just not worth it folks. amen, amen, amen, amen, amen
Re: t-and-f: YES ALL ELITE ARE ON DRUGS
It really does not hurt that bad to think sometimes! Bold letters, and easy accusations, do not a genius make. The G.O.A.T.
