[Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:highway%3Dturning_circle#Central_island The question is whether a normal-sized turning circle can be tagged as such if there's a small landscaped island in the middle. Here's a local example: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=enll=28.450005,-81.506599spn=0.008433,0.016512gl=ust=mz=17layer=ccbll=28.450005,-81.506599panoid=XSUkL2QthSC5VFHjx0U2Rgcbp=12,1.34,,0,8.36 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
On 13/03/2012 11:29, Nathan Edgars II wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:highway%3Dturning_circle#Central_island The question is whether a normal-sized turning circle can be tagged as such if there's a small landscaped island in the middle. Here's a local example: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=enll=28.450005,-81.506599spn=0.008433,0.016512gl=ust=mz=17layer=ccbll=28.450005,-81.506599panoid=XSUkL2QthSC5VFHjx0U2Rgcbp=12,1.34,,0,8.36 That is a perfect example of something that isn't a turning circle. The tree in a bed prevents you using the full width of the circle to turn in. Were you to map that as highway=turning_circle width=10m (say), a 7.5m truck, which would be able to turn in a 10m unobstructed turning circle (eventually), would get stuck trying to make it around that loop. -- Jonathan (Jonobennett) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
On 3/13/2012 7:45 AM, Jonathan Bennett wrote: On 13/03/2012 11:29, Nathan Edgars II wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:highway%3Dturning_circle#Central_island The question is whether a normal-sized turning circle can be tagged as such if there's a small landscaped island in the middle. Here's a local example: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=enll=28.450005,-81.506599spn=0.008433,0.016512gl=ust=mz=17layer=ccbll=28.450005,-81.506599panoid=XSUkL2QthSC5VFHjx0U2Rgcbp=12,1.34,,0,8.36 That is a perfect example of something that isn't a turning circle. The tree in a bed prevents you using the full width of the circle to turn in. Were you to map that as highway=turning_circle width=10m (say), a 7.5m truck, which would be able to turn in a 10m unobstructed turning circle (eventually), would get stuck trying to make it around that loop. The same is true for overhanging branches and such. You can't rely on tags to know if an oversize vehicle can turn around. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
On 13/03/2012 11:57, Nathan Edgars II wrote: The same is true for overhanging branches and such. You can't rely on tags to know if an oversize vehicle can turn around. Overhanging branches are not a physical property of the road in the same way the central island is. -- Jonathan (Jonobennett) ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 7:29 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:highway%3Dturning_circle#Central_island The question is whether a normal-sized turning circle can be tagged as such if there's a small landscaped island in the middle. Here's a local example: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=enll=28.450005,-81.506599spn=0.008433,0.016512gl=ust=mz=17layer=ccbll=28.450005,-81.506599panoid=XSUkL2QthSC5VFHjx0U2Rgcbp=12,1.34,,0,8.36 Definitely not a turning_circle. Either map as a loop or mini_roundabout. -Josh ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
2012/3/13 Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com: Definitely not a turning_circle. Either map as a loop Yes. or mini_roundabout. Definitively no. You can drive straight through a mini-roundabout. You could try this at this road at your own risk! (I recommend a good car and health insurance ;-) ) See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout#Mini-roundabouts ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 8:21 AM, Martin Vonwald imagic@gmail.com wrote: 2012/3/13 Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com: or mini_roundabout. Definitively no. You can drive straight through a mini-roundabout. You could try this at this road at your own risk! (I recommend a good car and health insurance ;-) ) See http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roundabout#Mini-roundabouts Ah, another UK peculiarity. I guess I've been misapplying highway=mini_roundabout; but if so, we need to change this language on the wiki page: The mini-roundabout _usually_ does not have a physical island (emphasis added) -Josh ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
2012/3/13 Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com: Ah, another UK peculiarity. I guess I've been misapplying As far as I know it is the same e.g. in Hungary. highway=mini_roundabout; but if so, we need to change this language on the wiki page: The mini-roundabout _usually_ does not have a physical island (emphasis added) You are correct. I will try to add some clarification there. Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
2012/3/13 Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com: Ah, another UK peculiarity. I guess I've been misapplying As far as I know it is the same e.g. in Hungary. In Germany, here is no difference in law, sign or language between a mini-roundabout and roundabout. highway=mini_roundabout; but if so, we need to change this language on the wiki page: The mini-roundabout _usually_ does not have a physical island (emphasis added) The German Wiki (probably translated from the English original) states that the difference is exactly (and only) the form of the central island and the tagging should be done according to this feature. Just for you further consideration.. Chaos99 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
2012/3/13 Ronnie Soak chaoschaos0...@googlemail.com: The German Wiki (probably translated from the English original) states that the difference is exactly (and only) the form of the central island and the tagging should be done according to this feature. As far as I know, this is correct. The central island - if there is one at all - of a mini-roundabout, must be traversable, while this is not true for the roundabout. I updated the wiki - please verify. Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Route Relations and Special (Bannered) Routes
* Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com [2012-03-11 22:30 -0400]: It also makes the most sense to put it in the ref tag. Otherwise there's inconsistency between an alternate signed as US 1 Alternate and one signed as US 1A (with the suffix in the shield). In each case I'll also use the modifier tag (modifier=Alternate/A). But US 1A and US 1 Alternate are signed quite differently. From the perspective of a driver on the road, the US 1 Alternate signing is much more obviously a variant route of US 1. (US 1A even has its/their own page on Wikipedia, while the US 1 Alternates are listed with the other special routes on the Bannered routes of US 1 page. Not that Wikipedia dictates our actions, but it's indicative of other people's thinking on the matter.) Note that I'm not strictly disagreeing with you. I do personally like the separate network, ref, modifier tagging approach a little more than the others, but I also don't consider myself to have that extensive an understanding of road networks, either in the US or worldwide. I mostly want to see what sort of community consensus there is here, so the data consumer I'm working on will work in a reasonable way. I'd hoped to have feedback from several people, but since you're the only person who's responded so far, you get all the questions. :| -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- If I'm drunk and tell you to grab my wrist, don't. -- Keith Engle, Aikido blackbelt --- -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:13 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 5:16 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote: Definitely not a turning_circle. Either map as a loop or mini_roundabout. -Josh Not a mini_roundabout, either; those typically are painted onto the road surface and don't include a hard island. So we need to do one of the following: 1) Force everyone to draw a loop around the island (too tedious) 2) Change definition of mini_roundabout to allow for non-traversable islands (not happening, since it seems a traversable island is nearly universal, even in the US [1]) 3) Invent new tag 4) Tag as turning_circle, perhaps additionally using a traffic_calming=* value such as island [2] My vote is for #4. Time for me to try out Overpass to get my mis-tagged features... -Josh [1]: http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersection/roundabouts/fhwasa10007/ [2]:http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:35 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote: 1) Force everyone to draw a loop around the island (too tedious) Or just silently fix it. That's what I do. JOSM has great drawing tools for making nice, neat circles. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
Without willing to interfere in this discussion about the true nature of seemingly similar roundish street features, I'd like to point out that ending a line with a pentagonal or hexagonal approximation of a circle is actually less work than adding a tag on the last node (extra 5 or 6 clicks compared to selecting the node, opening some list, typing first few letters, confirming (or typing it from scratch)...) LM 2012/3/13 Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 9:13 AM, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 5:16 AM, Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com wrote: Definitely not a turning_circle. Either map as a loop or mini_roundabout. -Josh Not a mini_roundabout, either; those typically are painted onto the road surface and don't include a hard island. So we need to do one of the following: 1) Force everyone to draw a loop around the island (too tedious) 2) Change definition of mini_roundabout to allow for non-traversable islands (not happening, since it seems a traversable island is nearly universal, even in the US [1]) 3) Invent new tag 4) Tag as turning_circle, perhaps additionally using a traffic_calming=* value such as island [2] My vote is for #4. Time for me to try out Overpass to get my mis-tagged features... -Josh [1]: http://safety.fhwa.dot.gov/intersection/roundabouts/fhwasa10007/ [2]:http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Route Relations and Special (Bannered) Routes
On Sun, Mar 11, 2012 at 11:16 AM, Phil! Gold phi...@pobox.com wrote: I'd like to solicit some thoughts on the tagging for special routes (commonly known as bannered routes)[0]. In route relations, it's customary to separate the network and the reference number. How do or should special routes fit into that? I'm torn between three views and I'm not sure which of them is the best fit for the way people think about special routes in a general sense. Let's consider one of US Route 1's alternate routes[1]. We can think of it as: * An independent route within the US Highway system whose reference number happens to be alphanumeric. network=US:US ref=1 Alternate (but people might use ref=1 Alt, because that's what's on some of the signs) * A route within the subset of the US Highway system consisting of alternate routes: network=US:US:Alternate ref=1 -- ...computer contrarian of the first order... / http://aperiodic.net/phil/ PGP: 026A27F2 print: D200 5BDB FC4B B24A 9248 9F7A 4322 2D22 026A 27F2 --- -- Wow, I'm being shot at from both sides. That means I *must* be right. :-) -- Larry Wall --- -- ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging * A route related to the main US Route 1, but with an additional tag indicating that it's a bannered offshoot: network=US:US ref=1 banner=Alternate I'm partial to the idea of separating the banner from the reference number, but I'm not sure how any of these ideas mesh with the understandings of people with more experience with road networks than I have. tagging@ is included because I'm not sure how global a practice this sort of thing is, even though it's quite common in the US. [0]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Special_route [1]: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bannered_routes_of_U.S._Route_1#Alternate_routes adding a tag for banner=Alternate/Business/Truck is my least-favourite option of those above. increasing specificity on the network tag like network=US:US:Alt follows the original intent of the network tag. It also offers the least surprise to naive consumers of the data. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
2012/3/13 Josh Doe j...@joshdoe.com: 4) Tag as turning_circle, perhaps additionally using a traffic_calming=* value such as island [2] My vote is for #4. Time for me to try out Overpass to get my mis-tagged features... For me this sounds like using two inappropriate tags instead of one. Neither is it a turning circle (which does not have a central island) nor is the central island some kind of traffic calming. I agree with Paul Johnson: silently fix it. If some doesn't want - for whatever reason - map it correctly, than let them tag it as turning_circle with a fixme tag. Better than nothing. Though I myself would never do it that way, as this would be more work than simply drawing a circle. But that's just me. Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
May I ask were the definition of 'turning_cycle' comes from? (I'm not a native English speaker) As far as I've read on the wiki, it's a standing term in the UK describing the 'widened end of a road intended to enable easier turning of vehicles' and does not necessarily have to be of a circle shape. So, when even the shape is not fixed, isn't the overall intention of the term to describe something the eases turning? Where does the 'does not have a central island' come from? It's just another shape. Call it 'toroid' if you will. Isn't the intention the same? By the way: I would also just draw it as a circular way, but would at least think about tagging the whole thing as 'turning_cicle'. Regards, Chaos99 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [Talk-us] Route Relations and Special (Bannered) Routes
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 10:30 AM, Richard Weait rich...@weait.com wrote: increasing specificity on the network tag like network=US:US:Alt follows the original intent of the network tag. It also offers the least surprise to naive consumers of the data. I would agree with this. From the point of view of using the data to make maps, I like this approach better than a separate modifier tag. -- AJ Ashton ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
Am 13. März 2012 16:14 schrieb Richard Fairhurst rich...@systemed.net: Martin Vonwald wrote: The central island - if there is one at all - of a mini-roundabout, must be traversable, while this is not true for the roundabout. So NE2's original example isn't a mini-roundabout - it's a roundabout. Therefore tag it as a roundabout. yes, it isn't a mini-roundabout, but even if it's a roundabout is not completely sure (there is all signs missing as far as I can see). The difference between a roundabout and a circular road would be the right of way: if who is in the circle has to wait for who enters the circle it would be a normal street, if he had the right of way it would be a roundabout (this doesn't make much sense anyway in this context, because why should you remain in the circle if there is only one way out). Either highway=roundabout on the node (consistent with highway=mini_roundabout) on which node? natural=tree and highway=roundabout on the same node? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
On 3/13/2012 11:14 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: Martin Vonwald wrote: The central island - if there is one at all - of a mini-roundabout, must be traversable, while this is not true for the roundabout. This is not what the wiki says and not how I've been tagging mini_roundabouts or have seen them tagged. Indeed. So NE2's original example isn't a mini-roundabout - it's a roundabout. Therefore tag it as a roundabout. There's nothing preventing one from going the wrong way around the circle. Hence it's not a roundabout. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 8:14 AM, Richard Fairhurst So NE2's original example isn't a mini-roundabout - it's a roundabout. Therefore tag it as a roundabout. Either highway=roundabout on the node (consistent with highway=mini_roundabout), or junction=roundabout (consistent with junction=roundabout on ways, but it's not really a junction). Two concerns: Roundabouts are typically tagged junction=roundabout. And is it really a roundabout if it has only one exit, or is it just a circle in the road? ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] dispute about center island in a turning circle
On Tue, Mar 13, 2012 at 6:29 AM, Nathan Edgars II nerou...@gmail.com wrote: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:highway%3Dturning_circle#Central_island The question is whether a normal-sized turning circle can be tagged as such if there's a small landscaped island in the middle. Here's a local example: http://maps.google.com/maps?hl=enll=28.450005,-81.506599spn=0.008433,0.016512gl=ust=mz=17layer=ccbll=28.450005,-81.506599panoid=XSUkL2QthSC5VFHjx0U2Rgcbp=12,1.34,,0,8.36 I've definitely tagged some of these as a turning_circle. Seems good enough to me. I probably wouldn't stop anyone from doing it as a circular way or something but I'm not going to spend that kind of time on a measly cul-de-sac. Maybe when I'm 90 and can only do armchair mapping from the nursing home... Toby ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
