Re: [Tagging] Amenity=shelter for field shelter?
Thanks for the update of the wiki. I added one of my photos. Best regards, Martin 2013/2/26 Alberto albertoferra...@fastwebnet.it: To Martin Vonwald. I've added field_shelter here [1]. Can you upload a picture for it? I haven't one and I don't want to upload a copyrighted picture. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:shelter_type Thank you Alberto - Viking81 ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
2013/2/26 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: Hi, I made a wikidata tag proposal, here is the link: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata I think connecting our data with wikidatas data would give us a big potential. It's as easy as giving our entities a wikidata=Qxxx tag. Similar to wikipedia tag, but better as wikidata is more data oriented. What is the relation between wikidata and wikipedia? Couldn't one get the wikidata-reference code by looking up the wikipedia article name? In this case it would be an unnecessary duplication of information to also have a wikidata tag. I like the idea to use URIs for operators, like suggested in your proposal, but these have to be correct, e.g. the McDonald's example from your proposal doesn't work, it would be plain wrong, as McDonald's is a franchise and most McDonald's restaurants are not operated by the McDonald's Corporation. This example also shows that the data wikidata offers for the moment is not quite detailed, there seems to be no other information than the common name in various languages (e.g. there is no information about the address, not even the full name including the legal form (corporation etc.), no contact details, no management, business volume or any other interesting information regarding a company). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 11:56 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata I like the idea to use URIs for operators, Tag operator:wikidata=Q38076 much better than operator=McDonalds ?! Are you all so disconnected from real contributors ? Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
I added a wikidata tag to our main church: http://www.openstreetmap.org/browse/changeset/15183730 What is the (intended) effect? Will it be possible to visualise it somewhere? Jo 2013/2/26 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com Hi, I made a wikidata tag proposal, here is the link: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata I think connecting our data with wikidatas data would give us a big potential. It's as easy as giving our entities a wikidata=Qxxx tag. Similar to wikipedia tag, but better as wikidata is more data oriented. I would like to see what you guys think about it. Janko Mihelić ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
2013/2/27 Steve Bennett stevag...@gmail.com It's worth menitioning that Wikidata is still very new. How stable are the IDs? Any policies around them? Steve Wikidata is pretty new, but it is already deployed on Hungarian, Hebrew, Italian, and English Wikipedias. Deployed means that interwiki links on the left side of each article is taken from Wikidata database. Soon the So Wikidata IDs should be pretty stable. There is also a policy of not reusing IDs, so if they find a duplicate ID, it will not get reused for another term. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 10:07 PM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: Tag operator:wikidata=Q38076 much better than operator=McDonalds ?! Are you all so disconnected from real contributors ? In addition to, not instead of. operator:wikidata=* is computable. Martin wrote: What is the relation between wikidata and wikipedia? Couldn't one get the wikidata-reference code by looking up the wikipedia article name? In this case it would be an unnecessary duplication of information to also have a wikidata tag. Wikidata is a source of structured information that will be used by Wikipedia etc, instead of just storing that information as unstructured text. If anything, the duplication would be to continue to have a Wikipedia tag. Wikipedia article names change, but presumably the Wikidata identifiers are stable, so you can always look up the current Wikipedia article name from it. But, really you can have both. Stable, widely used identifiers are great things to store, so if Wikidata will fill that role, we should link to it. Steve ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
2013/2/27 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com What is the relation between wikidata and wikipedia? Couldn't one get the wikidata-reference code by looking up the wikipedia article name? In this case it would be an unnecessary duplication of information to also have a wikidata tag. But the wikipedia tag gives you only one language article. Now, if you go on a wikipedia article and open that little map, it shows the polygon or node taken from Openstreetmap. But it only works for the language that is in the wikipedia tag. Sure that could be solved by some algorithms, but this is a simpler, nicer solution. I like the idea to use URIs for operators, like suggested in your proposal, but these have to be correct, e.g. the McDonald's example from your proposal doesn't work, it would be plain wrong, as McDonald's is a franchise and most McDonald's restaurants are not operated by the McDonald's Corporation. Then we can use franchise:wikidata=* This example also shows that the data wikidata offers for the moment is not quite detailed, there seems to be no other information than the common name in various languages (e.g. there is no information about the address, not even the full name including the legal form (corporation etc.), no contact details, no management, business volume or any other interesting information regarding a company). Wikidata is quite a vibrant community, I'm sure all the details are going to be put in. It is all still pretty new. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
2013/2/27 Pieren pier...@gmail.com Tag operator:wikidata=Q38076 much better than operator=McDonalds ?! Are you all so disconnected from real contributors ? Real contributors can continue to write operator tags. I'm always for making it easier for the mapper. But why not help developers once in a while? Right now we have 886 McDonald's, 53 McDonalds and 9 McDonald's␣Deutschland␣Inc. I'm not going to mass change them to what I think they should be, because they all could have their reasons to give them that operator name. But Wikidata ID should be unchangeable and unambiguous, so mistakes should be easy to spot and fix. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
2013/2/27 Pieren pier...@gmail.com: Tag operator:wikidata=Q38076 much better than operator=McDonalds ?! Besides that McD is not the operator, this would be an additional way to eliminate ambiguity in some cases, of course you could still be mapping operator=* and it will be sufficient in many cases. It is also not given that the mapper would have to read or write Q38076, the editor could lookup the full name from the db and present this to the mapper in the editor. In the context of identifying operators I'd also like to mention the tag ref:vatin=countrycode:vat_identification_number to tag the tax number of a business. Anyway, currently it seems as if there is almost no other information in the wikidata tables than the article reference to wikipedia, so it doesn't look like an improvement compared to the tag wikipedia. You could also use operator:wikipedia=McDonald's for operator information, I agree (wouldn't that qualify as an URI as well?). cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
2013/2/27 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: 2013/2/27 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com What is the relation between wikidata and wikipedia? Couldn't one get the wikidata-reference code by looking up the wikipedia article name? In this case it would be an unnecessary duplication of information to also have a wikidata tag. But the wikipedia tag gives you only one language article. Now, if you go on a wikipedia article and open that little map, it shows the polygon or node taken from Openstreetmap. But it only works for the language that is in the wikipedia tag. no, that's not true, there is for example the open link map which gives you the article in your language, that's the whole point of it. One language is enough to get all the others (in the general case, there are a few exceptions). Sure that could be solved by some algorithms, but this is a simpler, nicer solution. -1, for humans it is much simpler to add and to verify understandable information, here I agree with Pieren, better use de:McDonald's than Q38076, if both are unambiguously associable to the same unique resource. Then we can use franchise:wikidata=* there is also brand to take into consideration. Still, why wikidata if you can use wikipedia? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] [OSM-talk] Proposition for a classification of path
Hi Balaitous, I think trying to classify paths using a type or grade is the wrong approach. The problem you're trying to solve is a real one: trying to distinguish important trails from less important ones. So why not just use that terminology: importance=5 (most important trails, probably a GR or something) importance=0 (insignificant little desire line, when there's a perfectly good track nearby, only the most pedantic map nerds would care about it). This strategy works. It's used by Google Maps (and exposed in Mapmaker) to assist with rendering and searching. Yes, it's a little bit subjective, but that's not the end of the world. Steve On Tue, Feb 26, 2013 at 9:17 AM, Balaitous balait...@mailoo.org wrote: Hi, I have wrote a proposition of classification for path. You can see it at : http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/pathtype Balaitous ___ talk mailing list t...@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
2013/2/27 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: Right now we have 886 McDonald's, 53 McDonalds and 9 McDonald's␣Deutschland␣Inc. I'm not going to mass change them to what I think they should be, because they all could have their reasons to give them that operator name. But Wikidata ID should be unchangeable and unambiguous, so mistakes should be easy to spot and fix. Yes, but the wikidata ID does not help in this case. McDonald's Corp. is not the same as McDonald's Deutschland Inc., you can find information about this in the German page, but not in other languages. As long as wikidata only links to articles and doesn't provide context on its own, it won't help or change anything besides of making it more complicated and error prone for mappers to look up a code instead of a human readable text. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
Am 27.02.2013 12:28, schrieb Janko Mihelic': 2013/2/27 Pieren pier...@gmail.com mailto:pier...@gmail.com Tag operator:wikidata=Q38076 much better than operator=McDonalds ?! Are you all so disconnected from real contributors ? Real contributors can continue to write operator tags. I'm always for making it easier for the mapper. But why not help developers once in a while? How does it help developers to have a minimal number of wikidata-tags in osm? If that's not tagged in the majority of objects, developers still have to support the fallback from the operator with all work that comes with this support. Not supporting that fallback will fail in most cases; so what's the benefit of the wikidata-tag? Right now we have 886 McDonald's, 53 McDonalds and 9 McDonald's?Deutschland?Inc. I'm not going to mass change them to what I think they should be, because they all could have their reasons to give them that operator name. But Wikidata ID should be unchangeable and unambiguous, so mistakes should be easy to spot and fix. For McDonald's and mcDonalds you'r right, I think; for McDonald's Deutschland Inc I guess there is a corresponding company inside the worldwide company, and that this might have a distinct entry in wikidata. So this wouldn't help either. regards Peter ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Tagging proposition for a classification of a path, Vol 41, Issue 46 message 1
Balaitous wrote 1. Re: Proposition for a classification of path (Balaitous) Also, the proposed path types would classify any path that ends in a cul-de-sac as the least-used and least-maintained category, which isn't necessarily the case. When I say cul-de-sac I refer to paths that go nowhere, like this : At the beginning, there look good, but there are more and more bad, and at the end there simply disappear ! I have corrected : This path can be end in cul de sac without any POI. I dont see why you would make a definition like this, since theres a path grade 1 - 5 option.For instance in the situation of Cirque de Gavarnie, http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=42.6973lon=-0.0017zoom=14layers=M theres a path with cul du sac, since a hiker wont climb up, but the path will be well maintaned. A path with a cul dus sac with POI ! And there will be more.I would tag it grade 5 without hesitation. But theres one point I like to ad to this discussion if you want to build a new order. What about the quality of a track usable for less valid or invalid people and thats not just the pavement or the lack of it but also about space. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
I'm honestly appalled by some of the criticism here. I think this is a great proposal and will be very useful once both sides are solid, with WikiData hosting more and more information and OSM linking lots of objects to a WikiData node. As to the McDonalds/McDonalds Deutschland issue, think of a TagIngo that understands WikiData and shows you not only the code (Q) but also the name of that WikiData node. You would immediately see that there are thousands of McDonald's Corp., a hundred McDonald's Deutschland Inc., and eight Can't find node. It would be a treat to detect errors. What would be great to ease the mapper's task would be an editor that understands WikiData. Something that, as I enter the wikidata=* tag, shows a form in which what I type is looked up into WikiData; the editor would then fill the tag what the proper node ID. I'm a bit puzzled that we've been saying for years that OSM should only store geographical information, that all other information should be in a separate database, and now that there is that separate database there are so many voices against it. Regards, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
On 27/02/13 11:37, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2013/2/27 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com: 2013/2/27 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com What is the relation between wikidata and wikipedia? Couldn't one get the wikidata-reference code by looking up the wikipedia article name? In this case it would be an unnecessary duplication of information to also have a wikidata tag. But the wikipedia tag gives you only one language article. Now, if you go on a wikipedia article and open that little map, it shows the polygon or node taken from Openstreetmap. But it only works for the language that is in the wikipedia tag. no, that's not true, there is for example the open link map which gives you the article in your language, that's the whole point of it. One language is enough to get all the others (in the general case, there are a few exceptions). It works until the article name is changed in that particular language, then it won't work for any language until it's fixed, if ever. Of course one could argue it's very unlikely in the case of a famous franchise but what about less famous places that have a Wikipedia entry? - Svavar Kjarrval signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: If you keep the original operator, then I don't see the point. Either the tags operator and operator:wikidata are different and you have a real problem. Or the tags have the same values/meaning and it is just duplicates. About McDonalds or McDonald's, define the standard value, call XAPI/overpass or keepright/osmose to find them and fix the wrong values with JOSM. It takes 2 minutes and the problem is closed. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
On 27/02/13 12:00, Simone Saviolo wrote: I'm honestly appalled by some of the criticism here. I think this is a great proposal and will be very useful once both sides are solid, with WikiData hosting more and more information and OSM linking lots of objects to a WikiData node. For the record, I do like the idea. Especially since I am a database nerd and know the importance of having non-interchangable IDs. As to the McDonalds/McDonalds Deutschland issue, think of a TagIngo that understands WikiData and shows you not only the code (Q) but also the name of that WikiData node. You would immediately see that there are thousands of McDonald's Corp., a hundred McDonald's Deutschland Inc., and eight Can't find node. It would be a treat to detect errors. What would be great to ease the mapper's task would be an editor that understands WikiData. Something that, as I enter the wikidata=* tag, shows a form in which what I type is looked up into WikiData; the editor would then fill the tag what the proper node ID. Also when people attempt to connect an element to an Wikipedia article, the editor could offer to link directly to the Wikidata entry instead. I'm a bit puzzled that we've been saying for years that OSM should only store geographical information, that all other information should be in a separate database, and now that there is that separate database there are so many voices against it. Regards, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
2013/2/27 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com Still, why wikidata if you can use wikipedia? Imagine a data consumer that wants to list all McDonalds in the World. If he would try to go by wikipedia tag, he should search for de:McDonald's, en:McDonalds, hak:Ma̍k-tông-lò Kûng-sṳ̂, hy:ՄաքԴոնալդս, ko:맥도날드 and who knows what else. He should also search for whole links, like https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/McDonald%27s, because they are still allowed (Wikipedia map searches for them also). That is just not data friendly. I agree it's possible, but the data consumer should go to wikidata, get all possible wikipedia links for a given article, and search for each of them in our database. I think that is more complicated then it should be. Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
2013/2/27 Pieren pier...@gmail.com On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: About McDonalds or McDonald's, define the standard value, call XAPI/overpass or keepright/osmose to find them and fix the wrong values with JOSM. It takes 2 minutes and the problem is closed. First, how are you going to force a korean to put operator=McDonald's if he calls it operator=맥도날드. He is not going to like it. Second, what if there is a McDonald's in Malawi that has the same name as the big American McDonald's. How are you going to differentiate the two? Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
Am 27.02.2013 13:01, schrieb Pieren: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 12:49 PM, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: If you keep the original operator, then I don't see the point. Either the tags operator and operator:wikidata are different and you have a real problem. Or the tags have the same values/meaning and it is just duplicates. About McDonalds or McDonald's, define the standard value, call XAPI/overpass or keepright/osmose to find them and fix the wrong values with JOSM. It takes 2 minutes and the problem is closed. -1 You would create new bugs for the plumber McDonalds, the taxi company McDonalds and many more, who are NOT named McDonald's (or vice versa). I'm not sure if even for fast food the name McDonalds would be unique world wide. If I were Peter McDonald I guess I would be allowed to open a fast food shop named McDonald's locally where McDonalds is not on the market already in my country (okay, probably a bad example as that might not be the case anywhere on the world). It's hard to find examples as in fact the fast food company is spamming google results a lot, but e.g. http://www.yellowpages.com.au/vic/ferntree-gully/mcdonalds-car-electrical-repairs-14183175-listing.html is one. Yes, you could combine your query with amenity=fast_food, but I'm not sure if that would solve all problems really. regards Peter ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
Adding Q38076 would probably introduce more errors, however if our editors pulled the data from wikidata to give human readable names to pick from then our data would become more accurate. Clifford On Feb 27, 2013 5:07 AM, Pieren pier...@gmail.com wrote: On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 11:56 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Wikidata I like the idea to use URIs for operators, Tag operator:wikidata=Q38076 much better than operator=McDonalds ?! Are you all so disconnected from real contributors ? Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:22 PM, Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com wrote: First, how are you going to force a korean to put operator=McDonald's if he calls it operator=맥도날드. He is not going to like it. Second, what if there is a McDonald's in Malawi that has the same name as the big American McDonald's. How are you going to differentiate the two? I said define the standard value, means document it on the wiki. If our standard says that operator=McDonald's for the big fastfood operator around the world, all other values or translations have to be corrected. Or the standard accepts translations and they have to be listed on the wiki. Then the software developer who wants to retrieve all McDonald's in the world will just have to trust our documentation. There is one McDonald's in Malawi: http://johnvolinskyafrica.blogspot.ch/2008/05/only-mcdonalds-in-malawi.html I'm not sure that the tags amenity=fast_food + operator=McDonald's is really appropriate here ;-) In my turn for questions, what are you doing if the wikidata is refering to McDonald's but the tag name or operator is telling Burger King ? Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
2013/2/27 Pieren pier...@gmail.com In my turn for questions, what are you doing if the wikidata is refering to McDonald's but the tag name or operator is telling Burger King ? This proposal improves data consistency and relationship between data. Are we really willing to reject it because the data we put in may be wrong? That case would obviously be a conflict if you looked at both tags. For sure, any consumer will privilege one over the other. Suppose you use wikidata as your main tag, and operator as a fallback: the problem is no more, that fast food is a McDonald's. If the two tags are inconsistent, it's a problem in the data, not in the mapping scheme. We are full of inconsistent data, don't tell me wikidata will make that worse. Regards, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:33 PM, Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de wrote: -1 You would create new bugs for the plumber McDonalds, the taxi company McDonalds and many more, who are NOT named McDonald's (or vice versa). I'm talking to amenity=fast_food + operator=McDonalds instead of McDonald's. Point me an example of a fast food chain using the same name as McDonald's, US and I may change my position. This proposal is mainly to create categories and avoid relations, because someone said relations are not categories. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:43 PM, Simone Saviolo simone.savi...@gmail.com wrote: This proposal improves data consistency and relationship between data. Are we really willing to reject it because the data we put in may be wrong? No, Because it duplicates existing tags. Because it might create inconsistencies. Because it's not human readable. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
2013/2/27 Martin Koppenhoefer dieterdre...@gmail.com Yes, but the wikidata ID does not help in this case. McDonald's Corp. is not the same as McDonald's Deutschland Inc., you can find information about this in the German page, but not in other languages. As long as wikidata only links to articles and doesn't provide context on its own, it won't help or change anything besides of making it more complicated and error prone for mappers to look up a code instead of a human readable text. It is providing context. The goal of Wikidata isn't to become a catalog of Wikipedia articles, it is to become a big semantic database that has lots of structured data (which is, conveniently, described in Wikipedia articles). If we want, we can refine the data in Wikidata to better suit our needs, of course, if our requests make sense to Wikidatans. I agree not all problems can be solved at once, but Wikidata is a community project, just like Wikipedia and Openstreetmap. If we (Openstreetmap) start early by using and geocoding their data, they are probably going to treat us like partners, and help us . Janko ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
2013/2/27 Pieren pier...@gmail.com On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 1:43 PM, Simone Saviolo simone.savi...@gmail.com wrote: This proposal improves data consistency and relationship between data. Are we really willing to reject it because the data we put in may be wrong? No, Because it duplicates existing tags. Does not. Provides a single link to all information instead. Think of this scenario. In Italy, Unicredit Banca is a brand of Unicredito Italiano S.p.A.. Suppose that the brand is sold to another bank company: the brand wikidata node would still be valid, and internally to Wikidata it would link to the new owner. With regular tags you'd have to go and change all of the occurrences. Because it might create inconsistencies. Does not, as I pointed above. You don't use two tags at the same time for a single piece of information. At most, you use a second fallback one _in case the first is not available_. Because it's not human readable. That's why I call for editor support. It's the only problem I see with the proposal. It is the same problem that wikipedia=* has. Ciao, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Simone Saviolo simone.savi...@gmail.com wrote: Because it might create inconsistencies. Does not, as I pointed above. You don't use two tags at the same time for a single piece of information. At most, you use a second fallback one _in case the first is not available_. To be clear, you will never find a consensus for replacing our existing tags by a wikidata Q number. This has been already proposed several times in the past (not by the wikidata id but some other similar abstraction). As Steve said earlier in this thread, it might be tolerated only as an additional tag. Therefore the duplication. Pieren ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
2013/2/27 Pieren pier...@gmail.com On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Simone Saviolo simone.savi...@gmail.com wrote: Because it might create inconsistencies. Does not, as I pointed above. You don't use two tags at the same time for a single piece of information. At most, you use a second fallback one _in case the first is not available_. To be clear, you will never find a consensus for replacing our existing tags by a wikidata Q number. This has been already proposed several times in the past (not by the wikidata id but some other similar abstraction). As Steve said earlier in this thread, it might be tolerated only as an additional tag. Therefore the duplication. I'm talking consumers, in case you didn't get it. Do you tolerate it? Ok. If there's a consumer that uses it, it works for them, it works for us. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
On 2013-02-27 12:08, Jo wrote : I suggested to Waymarked Trail http://hiking.waymarkedtrails.org/en/ and I have mentioned to this list that any free format field like operator should be explicitly allowed to contain an URL and that the programs should auto-recognize URLs to make them clickable (like many many programs do, even my Terminal command line interface). That URL can be beside other information. Many sites auto-detect language and some even forget to let switch to another one. It should be possible to call for example a Wikipedia URL independent of the language with any article in any language and switch to the first existing article in the language from the list configured in the browser. sort of [xx.]wikipedia.org/fr:Liège with nl,fr,en browser - follow Nederlands http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luik_%28stad%29 - http://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Luik_(stad) they almost do it: Error 404 – File not found http://en.wikipedia.org/fr:Liège We could not find the above page on our servers. *Did you mean to type http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/fr:Liège http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/fr:Li%c3%a8ge?* You will be automatically redirected there in five seconds. Cheers, André. Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
You call for editor support for a new external ID that's not controllable. You want it to be a replacement (well, you agree to keep the old tags, but your argumentation is that the old tags are not necessary any more with the existence of Wikidata. This contains several preconditions you assume to be fulfilled: 1) wikidata will not go away or change it's IDs before osm is dead. Maybe you're right; I think, for wikidata there is in fact a chance for this to happen. 2) wikidata will not change the meaning of the content of what there is behind any ID. I'm not sure here. As we refine an object by different new objects again and again the same might happen to wikidata, changing the meaning of e.g. Q (let's say McDonald's) from the brand of the many burger shops to the holding itself, while introducing Qy for the brand McDonalds, or refining Qx to be the holding itself, without containing McDonald's Germany and the other country-specific sub-companies. Sure: Users might again be able to follow the wikidata information network down to all country-specific sub-companies and pull all restaurants out of it, but that's not automatically again, I guess. Adding this might be acceptable for most mappers, but replacing our own data is a problem as it relies on wikidata to be correct and stay stable up to the meaning of entries, which is not guaranteed as far as I know (and I have now idea how this COULD be guaranteed AND kept up to date on the same time). 3) let's take another example, the Eckmänneken, an old house in Warburg, Germany [1]. It's the oldest Fachwerk house in Germany and contains a greek restaurant. Both might be a valid reason to add it to wikidata, the restaurant business as well as the building itself. In OSM nevertheless both could be tagged on the same object (it is not, but it could be, and often that is the case). If you add a wikidata ID to it - would it be one to the restaurant or to the building? Or to both - how? IMHO it's okay to link to wikidata, but it doesn't help: Neither it does make live easier for mappers nor it reduces errors in the data. With tool support (as you propose) it might work, but without - and that's now the case - it's useless. I would suggest you to write the corresponding tool support first, supporting the wikidata id, show what's possible with that, and then spread the word about the tag itself; but the wikidata id as the id alone is useless and worse than not adding it in many cases. regards Peter [1] https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eckm%C3%A4nneken Am 27.02.2013 14:19, schrieb Simone Saviolo: 2013/2/27 Pieren pier...@gmail.com mailto:pier...@gmail.com On Wed, Feb 27, 2013 at 2:06 PM, Simone Saviolo simone.savi...@gmail.com mailto:simone.savi...@gmail.com wrote: Because it might create inconsistencies. Does not, as I pointed above. You don't use two tags at the same time for a single piece of information. At most, you use a second fallback one _in case the first is not available_. To be clear, you will never find a consensus for replacing our existing tags by a wikidata Q number. This has been already proposed several times in the past (not by the wikidata id but some other similar abstraction). As Steve said earlier in this thread, it might be tolerated only as an additional tag. Therefore the duplication. I'm talking consumers, in case you didn't get it. Do you tolerate it? Ok. If there's a consumer that uses it, it works for them, it works for us. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
2013/2/27 Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de You call for editor support for a new external ID that's not controllable. You want it to be a replacement (well, you agree to keep the old tags, but your argumentation is that the old tags are not necessary any more with the existence of Wikidata. This contains several preconditions you assume to be fulfilled: 1) wikidata will not go away or change it's IDs before osm is dead. Maybe you're right; I think, for wikidata there is in fact a chance for this to happen. 2) wikidata will not change the meaning of the content of what there is behind any ID. I'm not sure here. As we refine an object by different new objects again and again the same might happen to wikidata, changing the meaning of e.g. Q (let's say McDonald's) from the brand of the many burger shops to the holding itself, while introducing Qy for the brand McDonalds, or refining Qx to be the holding itself, without containing McDonald's Germany and the other country-specific sub-companies. Sure: Users might again be able to follow the wikidata information network down to all country-specific sub-companies and pull all restaurants out of it, but that's not automatically again, I guess. Adding this might be acceptable for most mappers, but replacing our own data is a problem as it relies on wikidata to be correct and stay stable up to the meaning of entries, which is not guaranteed as far as I know (and I have now idea how this COULD be guaranteed AND kept up to date on the same time). 3) let's take another example, the Eckmänneken, an old house in Warburg, Germany [1]. It's the oldest Fachwerk house in Germany and contains a greek restaurant. Both might be a valid reason to add it to wikidata, the restaurant business as well as the building itself. In OSM nevertheless both could be tagged on the same object (it is not, but it could be, and often that is the case). If you add a wikidata ID to it - would it be one to the restaurant or to the building? Or to both - how? IMHO it's okay to link to wikidata, but it doesn't help: Neither it does make live easier for mappers nor it reduces errors in the data. With tool support (as you propose) it might work, but without - and that's now the case - it's useless. I would suggest you to write the corresponding tool support first, supporting the wikidata id, show what's possible with that, and then spread the word about the tag itself; but the wikidata id as the id alone is useless and worse than not adding it in many cases. While I don't agree that it would be useless and worse than not adding it, I appreciate your constructive criticism. I guess most of the criticism will linger on as long as Wikidata is not grown up. Which, I believe, is bad, also because the same criticism was addressed to OSM in the past (it still is, sometimes). Of course, a deeper understanding of how Wikidata deals with the scenarios you describe will be needed. Ciao, Simone ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Amenity=shelter for field shelter?
Thank you for your photo. I've also updated the animal page [1] and I reused your photo. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Animal Bye Alberto Thanks for the update of the wiki. I added one of my photos. Best regards, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Wikidata tag
Dana srijeda, 27. veljače 2013., korisnik Peter Wendorff wendo...@uni-paderborn.de je napisao: You call for editor support for a new external ID that's not controllable. It isn't any less controllable then Wikipedia. But it is more reliable. 2) wikidata will not change the meaning of the content of what there is behind any ID. I'm not sure here. As we refine an object by different new objects again and again the same might happen to wikidata, changing the meaning of e.g. Q (let's say McDonald's) from the brand of the many burger shops to the holding itself, while introducing Qy for the brand McDonalds, or refining Qx to be the holding itself, without containing McDonald's Germany and the other country-specific sub-companies. Sure: Users might again be able to follow the wikidata information network down to all country-specific sub-companies and pull all restaurants out of it, but that's not automatically again, I guess. I guess slight changing of meanings of some items in their database could happen, but that is going to be a big job. Changing all 77 articles about McDonald's on all languages is no small feat :) And if it changes, there is nothing easier than doing a find/replace in our database. I agree that Wikidata isn't a perfect semantic data model, but it is in the spirit of free data, made by a community of people. It stands for all that Openstreetmap stands for, and that's why I think it's the best semantic database we are going to have in a long while. Adding this might be acceptable for most mappers, but replacing our own data is a problem as it relies on wikidata to be correct and stay stable up to the meaning of entries, which is not guaranteed as far as I know (and I have now idea how this COULD be guaranteed AND kept up to date on the same time). 3) let's take another example, the Eckmänneken, an old house in Warburg, Germany [1]. It's the oldest Fachwerk house in Germany and contains a greek restaurant. Both might be a valid reason to add it to wikidata, the restaurant business as well as the building itself. In OSM nevertheless both could be tagged on the same object (it is not, but it could be, and often that is the case). If you add a wikidata ID to it - would it be one to the restaurant or to the building? Or to both - how? This is a question we all have to answer. I think we are going to have to make a set of rules. We can start with simple rules like All McDonald's restaurants have a tag franchise:wikidata=Q38076. Then we can make the rules more flexible like amenity=restaurant can have the franchise:wikidata=xyz, but only if xyz has a is a=company and industry=restaurants in Wikidata. IMHO it's okay to link to wikidata, but it doesn't help: Neither it does make live easier for mappers nor it reduces errors in the data. With tool support (as you propose) it might work, but without - and that's now the case - it's useless. It's useful for data consumers. Janko Mihelić ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposition for a classification of path
Hi, You insinuate that I want to remove the other tags characterizing paths. This is false. What I propose is a new tag providing a summarized information, such that no algorithm can do. Besides, I think we should also tag of the markup, like markup=yes/no markup:quality= scale from 1 to 5 markup:type= paint/cairn/... Speaking as someone who deals with databases every day at work, given separate pieces of information, you can always combine them at need. It's true, but it's not a simple problem, and I think it's better done by human brain instead of computer, and even more difficult if a lot of separate pieces are missing. (It's a fact, specifics tags are low used) If all you have is the composite data, it isn't always possible to derive the details. Never possible ! But who wan't to remove all detail information ? Balaitous ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Proposition for a classification of path
Le mardi 26 février 2013 à 15:19 -0500, Richard Welty a écrit : i think it has the potential to be confusing, in part because tracktype already exists for highway=track, and tracktype is entirely about actual physical characteristics. i suspect it is a mistake to try to aggregate logical information about a path's significance (or the significance of its endpoints) with information about its physical characteristics. I don't think. Aggregating logical and physical information create a new kind of information. When you take a map (typically 1/25000 map) you need to have a summarised information combining a lot of criteria. It is one of the major issue of building generals maps It's already the case in OSM. Choosing between highway=primary and highway=secondary in a mixture between 3 informations : * utility * quality * administrative For example, in the wiki for highway=primary : U.S. Highways are MOSTLY primary. Some State Roads or State Routes MAY also be primary, if they have a significant role in linking two MAJOR CITIES. If you think pathtype=grade1-5 is a bad name, it's not the most important, and I am not opposed to change it. Balaitous ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
