Re: [Tagging] access in the wiki: move psv to by use
2014/1/15 martinq osm-mart...@fantasymail.de in service was (and is) not required by the definition description of the psv tag or the taxi. Only in bus it was mixed in (acting as a public service). in service is implicit in public service vehicle, because if they are not in service they are not psv. For taxi I am not sure, I don't know whether a taxi is a taxi when the driver is not working, but my guess is it is not. Maybe someone has more references to clear this up. There is no way to tag taxi in service so far in OSM, only taxi (as a car category). is there really a taxi vehicle category? I am aware that the vehicle has certain requisites e.g. in Germany in order to be able to work as taxi, but I am not sure if it is a taxi also off duty. So I do not agree that taxi and psv belong to the by-use group. OK, if you get more we have to think about how this can be handled (e.g. voting?) I strongly suggest to move psv, bus and taxi back to the original place in the wiki! for bus there shouldn't be space for discussion, as the definition is explicit for a long time. Most mappers are not native English speakers. We can only guess what they really understand and have understood. But I don't think it is an intuitive tag. I think that people that are not native speakers are less of a problem, as they won't have an idea about the meaning of a cryptic abbreviation prior to looking it up in the wiki, while people speaking English but not UK English as their mothertongue are more at risk of understanding something else (and not looking the definition up in the wiki). I do agree that it is not an intuitive tag (but it saves us lots of bytes in the db ;-) ), and it is a very old tag and quite used. 2) Introduce value public_transport omnibus=no bus=yes can also be expressed as omnibus=public_transport IMHO we can stick to psv. not clear to me. psv for what? as generic term for buses and taxis. I agree that creating a new vehicle class omnibus is also appealing, and there are currently 0 uses of this key so it might work out. Separating bus as vehicle category from by-use - and putting it into a value like - is not just more consistent: It is more flexible (I can distinguish between taxi in service and any taxi the same way), it easier to understand what omnibus=public_transport means, compared to the current bus=yes. +1 3) Depreciatepsv (or broaden the meaning to all public service because of the JOSM turn restriction plugin? What about changing that plugin? broaden the usage will probably not get a majority, but we can see. Not sure if this is needed anyway. no, the argument for depreciation was: There is no need for this artificial group: Grouping taxi (both in service as well as not in service) with only those buses acting as public transport. Taxi access and bus access are distinct things. No ambiguous, poorly understood (here the poor plug-in just confirms that PSV is not well-understood) short-cut like psv is needed. If taxi and bus can access, why not bus=* taxi=*? you mean omnibus rather than bus, no? +1 By the way: The key name tourist_bus is also non-intuitive, not every non-public transport bus is a tourist bus well, as this doesn't seem to be well defined outside of OSM we can use what we think is OK, currently the definition is a bus not acting as a public service vehicle cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access in the wiki: move psv to by use
Nobody uses the archaic word omnibus these days. You may as well suggest replacing car with horseless carriage. I really think we are trying to square a circle here. There are irreconcilable differences between countries, and we should not waste our energy in a war of attrition. Whether a taxi with no passengers is still a taxi, whether a bus on its way back to the depot is still a PSV, whether a bus being driven by a mechanic on a test-drive is allowed in a bus lane, all these things are going to vary by country. Why don't we all come up individually with a model which fits our own countries, and then we can see how much correlation there is between the countries. A few questions which come to mind: * If there is a road sign indicating Taxis only (might be a road, might be parking), what is considered a Taxi? * When is a bus allowed to use a bus lane? Does it include long-distance scheduled services? Does it include touring cars (a.k.a. coaches in the UK)? Does it include sightseeing tours? * What is considered a PSV? Does this concept actually exist in your country - for vehicle licensing or for driver licensing or something else? This is intended to *derive* a model of reality, instead of suggesting thousands of potential ways of tagging things until almost everyone gives up and goes home. Whatever tagging scheme is used, it should have some way of representing reality in many (preferably all) countries. If the semantics of a tag/value are different by country, let us just document the standards for that country and move on. Colin On 2014-01-16 16:13, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2014/1/15 martinq osm-mart...@fantasymail.de in service was (and is) not required by the definition description of the psv tag or the taxi. Only in bus it was mixed in (acting as a public service). in service is implicit in public service vehicle, because if they are not in service they are not psv. For taxi I am not sure, I don't know whether a taxi is a taxi when the driver is not working, but my guess is it is not. Maybe someone has more references to clear this up. There is no way to tag taxi in service so far in OSM, only taxi (as a car category). is there really a taxi vehicle category? I am aware that the vehicle has certain requisites e.g. in Germany in order to be able to work as taxi, but I am not sure if it is a taxi also off duty. So I do not agree that taxi and psv belong to the by-use group. OK, if you get more we have to think about how this can be handled (e.g. voting?) I strongly suggest to move psv, bus and taxi back to the original place in the wiki! for bus there shouldn't be space for discussion, as the definition is explicit for a long time. Most mappers are not native English speakers. We can only guess what they really understand and have understood. But I don't think it is an intuitive tag. I think that people that are not native speakers are less of a problem, as they won't have an idea about the meaning of a cryptic abbreviation prior to looking it up in the wiki, while people speaking English but not UK English as their mothertongue are more at risk of understanding something else (and not looking the definition up in the wiki). I do agree that it is not an intuitive tag (but it saves us lots of bytes in the db ;-) ), and it is a very old tag and quite used. 2) Introduce value public_transport omnibus=no bus=yes can also be expressed as omnibus=public_transport IMHO we can stick to psv. not clear to me. psv for what? as generic term for buses and taxis. I agree that creating a new vehicle class omnibus is also appealing, and there are currently 0 uses of this key so it might work out. Separating bus as vehicle category from by-use - and putting it into a value like - is not just more consistent: It is more flexible (I can distinguish between taxi in service and any taxi the same way), it easier to understand what omnibus=public_transport means, compared to the current bus=yes. +1 3) Depreciatepsv (or broaden the meaning to all public service because of the JOSM turn restriction plugin? What about changing that plugin? broaden the usage will probably not get a majority, but we can see. Not sure if this is needed anyway. no, the argument for depreciation was: There is no need for this artificial group: Grouping taxi (both in service as well as not in service) with only those buses acting as public transport. Taxi access and bus access are distinct things. No ambiguous, poorly understood (here the poor plug-in just confirms that PSV is not well-understood) short-cut like psv is needed. If taxi and bus can access, why not bus=* taxi=*? you mean omnibus rather than bus, no? +1 By the way: The key name tourist_bus is also non-intuitive, not every non-public transport bus is a tourist bus well, as this doesn't seem to be well defined outside of
Re: [Tagging] access in the wiki: move psv to by use
2014/1/16 Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl Nobody uses the archaic word omnibus these days. this is not a real problem, rather it might be a benefit, because it will avoid people using the term and guessing about the meaning. You may as well suggest replacing car with horseless carriage. probably the latter is more inclusive... I really think we are trying to square a circle here. There are irreconcilable differences between countries, and we should not waste our energy in a war of attrition. Whether a taxi with no passengers is still a taxi, whether a bus on its way back to the depot is still a PSV, whether a bus being driven by a mechanic on a test-drive is allowed in a bus lane, all these things are going to vary by country. maybe it will vary, but there is no doubt that there are at least 2 types of buses, those acting as psv and the vehicle class bus, I can confirm the necessity to distinct for at least Germany and Italy, but I guess is that this is relevant for many countries. Why don't we all come up individually with a model which fits our own countries, and then we can see how much correlation there is between the countries. this discussion rose out of the need to find suitable tags for real world situations A few questions which come to mind: - If there is a road sign indicating Taxis only (might be a road, might be parking), what is considered a Taxi? I have spent half an hour today trying to find this out for Germany and couldn't find an answer. But I have found other interesting facts, e.g. the sign for bus=yes (for buses acting as psv) in Germany allows access for all kind of vehicles that do Linienverkehr (line traffic / line operation), i.e. it excludes taxis (if there is not an additional sign) but it would allow a car in line operation (there is a definition what line operation is). - When is a bus allowed to use a bus lane? Does it include long-distance scheduled services? Does it include touring cars (a.k.a. coaches in the UK)? Does it include sightseeing tours? in the countries where I know the details, coaches are not allowed on bus lanes (hence the need for 2 kind of buses). Whatever tagging scheme is used, it should have some way of representing reality in many (preferably all) countries. +1 If the semantics of a tag/value are different by country, let us just document the standards for that country and move on. I'd prefer to use a different tag then, because that's what tagging is about: describing the real situation with k/v pairs. What's the point of using the same tag with different meaning? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access in the wiki: move psv to by use
On 2014-01-16 17:55, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2014/1/16 Colin Smale colin.sm...@xs4all.nl If the semantics of a tag/value are different by country, let us just document the standards for that country and move on. I'd prefer to use a different tag then, because that's what tagging is about: describing the real situation with k/v pairs. What's the point of using the same tag with different meaning? Then we should not use tags which mean different things to different people. Instead of bus, should we use vehicle_constructed_or_adapted_for_the_carriage_of_individual_fare-paying_passengers_on_scheduled_service in one country and vehicle_constructed_for_the_carriage_of_passengers_over_short_distances in another? Seriously, this is what we do all the time. Highway=trunk for example - many differing interpretations across the world, but usually more-or-less consistent within countries. We can all dream of a nice uniform world where all these debates are no longer needed, but it ain't gonna happen in our lifetime... In the mean time, we have to adapt our model to fit the world, because going the other way has proven rather challenging. Colin cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] access in the wiki: move psv to by use
Hi, I think this is in danger of getting too technical. As a for instance; a taxi in the UK is actually legally classed as a 'hackney carriage'. However it normally carries a sign saying 'taxi' and in general terms everyone knows what a taxi in the UK is. The driver, if employed as a 'taxi driver' will have had a test passed additional requirements to have a hackney carriage license - but will stop if you shout 'TAXI'. I've seen 'taxi' written on the road several times, but never 'hackney carriage'. Throughout the world I am sure there are similar legal definitions, but you will probably recognize something that will take you and your luggage, and will have a similar function to a UK taxi. Some kind of similar abbreviation to 'taxi' will be written on the road. I'm sure that in every country the driver themselves, plus the legal professions, will know the legal definitions, and will consider any navigation system or map as an 'indication only' - if you were stopped in the wrong place or using the wrong traffic lane you might blame the satnav, but you can't use it as a legal defense. There will be similar long winded legal definitions for omnibus, bus, coach, tram, etc. etc. They probably won't cover the lovingly restored vehicle from 1907 which doesn't carry fare paying passengers, or any other number of similar exemptions. In the UK we are lucky enough to have the highway code, which gives us simple guidance, and there are probably similar documents available for other countries. If we're tagging a lane marked 'buses taxis only', then the tags should be similarly simple, and it's up to the vehicle driver to make sure they are complying with the laws applicable to them, and it's not up to us to add tags for every obscure legal definition available. Regards Nick (Tallguy) On 16/01/14 16:13, Colin Smale wrote: Nobody uses the archaic word omnibus these days. You may as well suggest replacing car with horseless carriage. I really think we are trying to square a circle here. There are irreconcilable differences between countries, and we should not waste our energy in a war of attrition. Whether a taxi with no passengers is still a taxi, whether a bus on its way back to the depot is still a PSV, whether a bus being driven by a mechanic on a test-drive is allowed in a bus lane, all these things are going to vary by country. Why don't we all come up individually with a model which fits our own countries, and then we can see how much correlation there is between the countries. A few questions which come to mind: * If there is a road sign indicating Taxis only (might be a road, might be parking), what is considered a Taxi? * When is a bus allowed to use a bus lane? Does it include long-distance scheduled services? Does it include touring cars (a.k.a. coaches in the UK)? Does it include sightseeing tours? * What is considered a PSV? Does this concept actually exist in your country - for vehicle licensing or for driver licensing or something else? This is intended to *derive* a model of reality, instead of suggesting thousands of potential ways of tagging things until almost everyone gives up and goes home. Whatever tagging scheme is used, it should have some way of representing reality in many (preferably all) countries. If the semantics of a tag/value are different by country, let us just document the standards for that country and move on. Colin On 2014-01-16 16:13, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2014/1/15 martinq osm-mart...@fantasymail.de mailto:osm-mart...@fantasymail.de in service was (and is) not required by the definition description of the psv tag or the taxi. Only in bus it was mixed in (acting as a public service). in service is implicit in public service vehicle, because if they are not in service they are not psv. For taxi I am not sure, I don't know whether a taxi is a taxi when the driver is not working, but my guess is it is not. Maybe someone has more references to clear this up. There is no way to tag taxi in service so far in OSM, only taxi (as a car category). is there really a taxi vehicle category? I am aware that the vehicle has certain requisites e.g. in Germany in order to be able to work as taxi, but I am not sure if it is a taxi also off duty. So I do not agree that taxi and psv belong to the by-use group. OK, if you get more we have to think about how this can be handled (e.g. voting?) I strongly suggest to move psv, bus and taxi back to the original place in the wiki! for bus there shouldn't be space for discussion, as the definition is explicit for a long time. Most mappers are not native English speakers. We can only guess what they really understand and have understood. But I don't think it is an intuitive tag. I think that people that are not native speakers are less of a problem, as they won't have an idea
Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - trafficability
2014/1/15 Jean-Marc Liotier j...@liotier.org But wherever something can be encoded in an attribute instead of expressed in free text, that is where it should be. But, as this conversation underlines, there might be a diminishing return in encoding extremely rare attributes. this also with respect to languages: if we encourage free text values thought for the end user, it would be logical to translate those in all languages like we do with name-tags, no? cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] hazards (was: Feature Proposal - RFC - trafficability)
On 2014-01-13 14:53, Pieren wrote : On Mon, Jan 13, 2014 at 1:47 PM, BGNO BGNO bgno2...@gmail.com wrote: The information which people gave me about the mentioned 20km long road was: Yes you can use the road with a regular car if it doesn't rain. I think it is practicable to tag that information into OSM. How would you tag that based on physical models? I agree with you. But there is currently nothing formally adopted for such access conditions based on weather. Searching the wiki, I found these proposals: - surface=all_weather ([1]) but the values should be reworked - dry_weather_only=yes/no ([2]) - the conditional access restrictions ([3]) (but this is more legal with traffic signs) - see all the pages on specific road tagging per countries ([4]) - and how other countries handle the question you raise. For instance, Australia ([5]) They are maybe other ideas. What you need is find the best one and use it. Or if you want that the community (and the renderers styles maintainers) adopt it as well, start a vote process and explain how important it is in your country. I think that those road conditions are akin to danger of flooding. I think that they generically belong to Proposed features/hazard http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/hazard of which the article in the discussion is very eloquent regarding the wide scope or that tag. I am surprised that this proposition is 6½ years old and that taggers have been tagging that much time without much concern with what it contains or can be extended to (and taggers, who seem more interested in adding new features than readjusting what was done, will probably rarely come back to add hazards). In particular, I have started tagging speed limits and I was perfectly astounded that absolutely no 30 km/h limit tagged so far indicates school/children safety. 30 km/h limits are often of that kind however and they are important to know as a child can burst from between two parked cars. I have slightly amended hazard=school_zone, especially to cover a crossing in that zone. I suggest that the discussion is ripe and that a vote be started at least for children hazards. Cheers, André. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
