Re: [Tagging] Opening hours, default for public holidays

[Mateusz Konieczny]

On Fri, 20 Nov 2015 16:50:12 +0700
Stephan Knauss  wrote:

> Hello Robin, 
> 
> thanks for referring to the previous discussion. Seems I had missed
> that. 
> 
> As a "global" default won't work due to the arguments mentioned, how
> about making it easier for the data consumers? 
> 
> We still face the problem that a lot of opening hours are
> incompletely specified.  So for example the opening hours js library
> could display a warning in case of a public holiday and missing
> explicit specification in the tags. Would give a heads up notice to
> be more cautious with the data. 

Note that complaints like this should be emitted only for objects in
some countries (like Germany), not worldwide.

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Re: [Tagging] Opening hours, default for public holidays

[Marc Gemis]

In Belgium banks are closed on public holidays, even some special ones
like July 11 (only Flemish part).

Bakeries on the other side are typically open on Sundays and public
holidays. Even when the public holiday falls on their usual closing
day.
Butchers are closed on Sundays and PHs, but typically not around
Christmas and New Year, where they might be open for a couple of hours
so people can pick up the food they ordered.

Indeed, a very tricky matter depending on country, the type of shop,
amenity, etc.
Take a look at this museum http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/94177190
(always closed on Mondays and only open on some public holidays)

regards

m

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:06 AM, Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
>> Am 19.11.2015 um 13:01 schrieb Stephan Knauss :
>>
>> Out of 445 banks in Bavaria with opening hours 417 would be open on a public 
>> holiday (which is certainly always wrong).
>
>
> banks are a particular amenity with typically very limited opening hours 
> compared to other amenities. Germany is an exception too, because of a nazi 
> law still in place which forces most businesses to remain closed on Sundays 
> and public holidays, I'm not sure whether it would leave to sensible global 
> default suggestions if we'd use the German situation as a model.
>
> cheers
> Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Opening hours, default for public holidays

[Stephan Knauss]

Hello Robin, 

thanks for referring to the previous discussion. Seems I had missed that. 

As a "global" default won't work due to the arguments mentioned, how about 
making it easier for the data consumers? 

We still face the problem that a lot of opening hours are incompletely 
specified.  So for example the opening hours js library could display a warning 
in case of a public holiday and missing explicit specification in the tags. 
Would give a heads up notice to be more cautious with the data. 

Is there already an osmose category existing to find incomplete opening hours? 

Stephan 


On November 20, 2015 12:35:42 AM GMT+07:00, Robin Schneider  
wrote:
>-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
>Hash: SHA512
>
>On 19.11.2015 13:01, Stephan Knauss wrote:
>> Hi,
>> 
>> the wiki page describes that "PH off" is required in case something
>is 
>> closed on a public holiday.
>> 
>> This page confirms it: 
>> http://openingh.openstreetmap.de/evaluation_tool/?setLng=de a
>facility
>> tagged with "Mo-Fr 10:00-18:00" would be open on Christmas Friday.
>> 
>> Wouldn't it be much more meaningful to assume a default of "PH off"
>and 
>> just specify situations in which this is not the default? Likely the 
>> majority of amenities with tagged opening hours are closed on public 
>> holidays.
>> 
>> Check of OSM data: Out of 445 banks in Bavaria with opening hours 417
>would
>> be open on a public holiday (which is certainly always wrong).
>> 
>> Having the need to add PH off to every single entry would make it
>explicit,
>>  but is contrary to the typical common understanding of opening
>hours. And
>>  we also don't add oneway=no to the highways to make it explicit.
>> 
>> So I suggest to adopt a default understanding of "PH off" unless
>tagged 
>> otherwise.
>> 
>> Would it be worth opening a ticket here? 
>> https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js
>
>
>Good evening Stephan
>
>You are not the first one with this idea. It has already be discoursed
>and it
>was rejected. Such a proposal would make sense when looking only at
>Germany
>but it does not work so well when applied worldwide …
>
>Refs:
>
>- - (Assuming you speak German):
>https://blog.openstreetmap.de/blog/2015/04/wochenaufgabe-oeffnungszeiten/#comment-143413
>- -
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/opening_hours_default_PH_off
>
>- -- 
>Live long and prosper
>Robin `ypid` Schneider
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Re: [Tagging] Opening hours, default for public holidays

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 20.11.2015 um 12:46 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny :
> 
> Note that complaints like this should be emitted only for objects in
> some countries (like Germany), not worldwide.


why? If it's a public holiday and no rule is specified, the resulting answer 
always bears a fair amount of uncertainty.

cheers 
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Florian Lohoff]

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 08:19:56AM -0700, GerdP wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
> instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
> and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.

http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/LeaK3riwsMuv7f0i3Jt3XA/photo

I dont know how it is tagged right now but its a traffic calming
AND a crossing.

Just a quick example.

Flo
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

Just to make sure:
I've not changed nodes tagged highway=crossing,
but I changed some that were tagged highway=traffic_calming
to highay=crossing. I see no problem to add a tag 
like traffic_calming=island to the same node, but 
I think that e.g. bumps are typically before the crossing,
so those should be tagged on a different node.

Gerd


Von: Rafael Avila Coya 
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 17:10
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

Hi:

What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at the
same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where I
live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514

I find it is more important to mark it as a highway=crossing than a
highway=traffic_calming

Cheers,

Rafael.

On 20/11/15 16:19, GerdP wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
> highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
> traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
>
> The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
> also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
> it
> is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side
>
> So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
> instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
> and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
>
> After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
> as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
>
> As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
> and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
>
> Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
> I should revert all changes related to this tag.
>
> Gerd
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/improve-tagging-of-traffic-calming-tp5860596.html
> Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Dave Swarthout]

The traffic_calming nodes I've added are common in Thailand where they are
used to force traffic to go slow. These are most often bumps in the road,
an asphalt or concrete bump, that will knock you off your motorcycle if you
hit it fast enough. But they are definitely not crossings. I've seen a few
traffic_calming "humps" (a longer bump) that have a crossing on them in
Eugene, Oregon, but they are unusual, not the normal case.

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Gerd Petermann <
gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Just to make sure:
> I've not changed nodes tagged highway=crossing,
> but I changed some that were tagged highway=traffic_calming
> to highay=crossing. I see no problem to add a tag
> like traffic_calming=island to the same node, but
> I think that e.g. bumps are typically before the crossing,
> so those should be tagged on a different node.
>
> Gerd
>
> 
> Von: Rafael Avila Coya 
> Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 17:10
> An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
> Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming
>
> Hi:
>
> What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at the
> same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where I
> live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514
>
> I find it is more important to mark it as a highway=crossing than a
> highway=traffic_calming
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rafael.
>
> On 20/11/15 16:19, GerdP wrote:
> > Hi all,
> >
> > I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
> > highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
> > traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
> >
> > The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
> > also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought
> that
> > it
> > is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway
> side
> >
> > So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
> > instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to
> roads
> > and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
> >
> > After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user
> chilly
> > as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
> >
> > As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
> > and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
> >
> > Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or
> not
> > I should revert all changes related to this tag.
> >
> > Gerd
> >
> >
> >
> >
> > --
> > View this message in context:
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/improve-tagging-of-traffic-calming-tp5860596.html
> > Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> >
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Chris Hill]

On 20/11/15 15:19, GerdP wrote:

Hi all,

I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.

The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
it
is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side
  
So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing

instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.

After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641

As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.

Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
I should revert all changes related to this tag.


I asked Gerd to revert the edit simply because it was an undiscussed 
mechanical edit, for which Gerd has acknowledged and apologised (thanks 
Gerd). I would like to add that discussion on this list may reach a 
conclusion about the tags used (if we're lucky), but that still will not 
be a suitable place to discuss a mechanical edit. Gerd's link is to an 
edit across much of GB, so it needs to be discussed *and* agreed with GB 
mappers. I would suggest that GB mechanical edits need to be discussed 
on talk-GB and / or the #osm-gb irc channel. Similar mechanical edits in 
other countries or areas need to be similarly discussed and agreed in 
appropriate lists and channels too.


--
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Dave Swarthout]

No. That change would not be okay.

AFAIK the correct tagging scenario is

highway=traffic_calming
traffic_calming=bump (or chicane, or other types as stated in the wiki
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming)

This is a hierarchical system of tagging that works well in other
situations. I suppose you could make an argument for using only the last
one but that needs a full discussion first.

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:19 PM, GerdP 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
> highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
> traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
>
> The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
> also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
> it
> is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side
>
> So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
> instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
> and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
>
> After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user
> chilly
> as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
>
> As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
> and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
>
> Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
> I should revert all changes related to this tag.
>
> Gerd
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context:
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/improve-tagging-of-traffic-calming-tp5860596.html
> Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Rafael Avila Coya]

Hi:

What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at the
same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where I
live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514

I find it is more important to mark it as a highway=crossing than a
highway=traffic_calming

Cheers,

Rafael.

On 20/11/15 16:19, GerdP wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as 
> highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
> traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
> 
> The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
> also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
> it
> is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side 
>  
> So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
> instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
> and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
> 
> After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
> as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
> 
> As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay, 
> and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
> 
> Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
> I should revert all changes related to this tag.
> 
> Gerd
> 
> 
> 
> 
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/improve-tagging-of-traffic-calming-tp5860596.html
> Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
> 
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Marc Gemis]

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 5:23 PM, Florian Lohoff  wrote:
> http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/LeaK3riwsMuv7f0i3Jt3XA/photo

I would tag the crossing as a node and the "table" as part of the way,
not as a node.

but a combination of highway=crossing; traffic_calming=table on a node
could work as well.

(at least I think the road is higher around the crossing)

regards

m

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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

So you think that every node tagged traffic_calming=* should

additionally be tagged with highway=traffic_calming?

That would mean  we have >99% traffic_calming nodes with

incorrect tagging.


Gerd



Von: Dave Swarthout 
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 17:33
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

No. That change would not be okay.

AFAIK the correct tagging scenario is

highway=traffic_calming
traffic_calming=bump (or chicane, or other types as stated in the wiki 
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming)
[http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/thumb/1/15/Traffic_calming_example.jpg/200px-Traffic_calming_example.jpg]

Key:traffic_calming - OpenStreetMap Wiki
See Traffic calming on Wikipedia. Traffic calming consists of engineering and 
other measures put in place on roads for slowing down or reducing motor-vehicle 
traffic ...
Weitere Informationen...



This is a hierarchical system of tagging that works well in other situations. I 
suppose you could make an argument for using only the last one but that needs a 
full discussion first.

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 10:19 PM, GerdP 
> wrote:
Hi all,

I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.

The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
it
is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side

So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.

After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641

As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.

Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
I should revert all changes related to this tag.

Gerd




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[Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[GerdP]

Hi all,

I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as 
highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.

The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
it
is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side 
 
So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.

After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641

As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay, 
and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.

Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
I should revert all changes related to this tag.

Gerd




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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Volker Schmidt]

I routinely use the combination of
highway=crossing
crossing=uncontrolled
traffic_calming=table or traffic_calming=hump

example:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1463764436
http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/tfK5PNthYcyeahBz_dXqeg/photo

For these combined features the synthax
highway=traffic_calming
traffic_calming=bump cannot be used

Also JOSM supports this combined mapping.

I thought this was the standard way of mapping the combination of
pedestrian crossing and a slow-down hump or table.
Please do not touch these without discussion.




On 20 November 2015 at 17:41, Dave Swarthout 
wrote:

> The traffic_calming nodes I've added are common in Thailand where they are
> used to force traffic to go slow. These are most often bumps in the road,
> an asphalt or concrete bump, that will knock you off your motorcycle if you
> hit it fast enough. But they are definitely not crossings. I've seen a few
> traffic_calming "humps" (a longer bump) that have a crossing on them in
> Eugene, Oregon, but they are unusual, not the normal case.
>
> On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Gerd Petermann <
> gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just to make sure:
>> I've not changed nodes tagged highway=crossing,
>> but I changed some that were tagged highway=traffic_calming
>> to highay=crossing. I see no problem to add a tag
>> like traffic_calming=island to the same node, but
>> I think that e.g. bumps are typically before the crossing,
>> so those should be tagged on a different node.
>>
>> Gerd
>>
>> 
>> Von: Rafael Avila Coya 
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 17:10
>> An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming
>>
>> Hi:
>>
>> What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at the
>> same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where I
>> live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514
>>
>> I find it is more important to mark it as a highway=crossing than a
>> highway=traffic_calming
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Rafael.
>>
>> On 20/11/15 16:19, GerdP wrote:
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
>> > highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
>> > traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
>> >
>> > The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is
>> not
>> > also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought
>> that
>> > it
>> > is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway
>> side
>> >
>> > So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
>> > instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to
>> roads
>> > and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
>> >
>> > After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user
>> chilly
>> > as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
>> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
>> >
>> > As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
>> > and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
>> >
>> > Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or
>> not
>> > I should revert all changes related to this tag.
>> >
>> > Gerd
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > View this message in context:
>> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/improve-tagging-of-traffic-calming-tp5860596.html
>> > Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >
>> > ___
>> > Tagging mailing list
>> > Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>> >
>>
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

"Where traffic_calming is not a pedestrian crossing then
highway=traffic_calming is the prefered way of tagging."

The wiki doesn't mention this and most mappers seem not
to know that, not even in the UK. The vast majority of 
traffic calmings is NOT tagged highway=traffic_calming.

What am I getting wrong here? Did someone remove the 
preferred way of tagging from the wiki and nobody noticed
it for years?

Gerd


Von: Philip Barnes 
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 19:31
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

On Fri, 2015-11-20 at 11:22 -0700, Tod Fitch wrote:
> A raised area several feet across with a marked crosswalk on top is
> not uncommon in Silicon Valley and more of them seem to appearing in
> residential areas. I suspect that it is one of the newer ways to
> address the combined issue of traffic calming and pedestrian
> crossing.
>
>
Most traffic calming features are not pedestrian crossings.

Where traffic_calming is not a pedestrian crossing then
highway=traffic_calming is the prefered way of tagging.

Phil (trigpoint)




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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Georg Feddern]

Am 20.11.2015 um 18:24 schrieb Gerd Petermann:

I found 940 nodes which were tagged with highway=traffic_calming.
Most of them were also tagged with e.g. traffic_calming=bump
or traffic_calming=table or one of the other well documented values.
A few were not tagged traffic_calming=*.

I changed those few to traffic_calming=yes and removed the obsolete
highway=traffic_calming tag from the other.
I also verified that the changed nodes are on a highway=* way.



If the highway=traffic_calming is obsolete in those cases -
why isn't


A few nodes were tagged with crossing=*, in those cases I added the tag
highway=crossing (and kept the traffic_calming=* tag)


highway=crossing obsolete in this cases?

Regards,
Georg
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Chris Hill]

On 20/11/15 16:47, Gerd Petermann wrote:


So you think that every node tagged traffic_calming=* should

additionally be tagged with highway=traffic_calming?

That would mean  we have >99% traffic_calming nodes with

incorrect tagging.



I think you misunderstand OSM. Your assumption of incorrect tagging is 
wrong. There is a diversity of tagging. That is how OSM works. Some will 
say 'how will data consumers deal with this muddle?'. That question is 
usually asked by people who have not tried to use OSM data. People who 
use OSM data know that it *always* needs processing to be useful for the 
particular use it is being put to. Dealing with that diversity is part 
of this processing and not especially difficult nor does it add much to 
the process. Anyone who has written such a process to do this then has a 
template to do this again easily.


Diversity in tagging is not a problem. Mechanical edits that destroy 
detail or upset precious mappers who have their carefully chosen tagging 
replaced by a remote person are a problem.


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Re: [Tagging] Opening hours, default for public holidays

[Robin Schneider]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA512

On 20.11.2015 10:50, Stephan Knauss wrote:
> As a "global" default won't work due to the arguments mentioned, how about
making it easier for the data consumers?
> 
> We still face the problem that a lot of opening hours are incompletely
specified.  So for example the opening hours js library could display a
warning in case of a public holiday and missing explicit specification in the
tags. Would give a heads up notice to be more cautious with the data.

Already done :)

Check:
http://ypid.de/~osm/evaluation_tool/?EXP=Mo-Fr%2010%3A00-20%3A00=48.7769=9.1844=0

Issue: https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js/issues/81

> Is there already an osmose category existing to find incomplete opening
> hours?

Not that I am aware of. I implemented other ways for QA. See
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Quality_Assurance_Tools_script and
https://blog.openstreetmap.de/blog/2015/04/wochenaufgabe-oeffnungszeiten/
(German, under "Werkzeuge").
When you want to integrate it with Osmose somehow, you are encouraged to do so.

On 20.11.2015 13:33, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> Am 20.11.2015 um 12:46 schrieb Mateusz Konieczny :
>> 
>> Note that complaints like this should be emitted only for objects in some
>> countries (like Germany), not worldwide.
> 
> 
> why? If it's a public holiday and no rule is specified, the resulting
> answer always bears a fair amount of uncertainty.

I agree. The warning is emitted regardless in which country the object is.
More details:
https://github.com/ypid/opening_hours.js/issues/81#issuecomment-158466595

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Robin `ypid` Schneider
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

I am not sure what you mean.


We have > 1.600.000 nodes which are tagged highway=crossing.

We have ~213.000 nodes tagged as traffic_calming.


I don't know if a zebra crossing should be called traffic calming,

but it is typically tagged highway=crossing, and in rare cases

also with traffic_calming=*.

When I find a node that is tagged highway=traffic_calming,

crossing=uncontrolled,traffic_calming=table and Bing shows

a zebra crossing I think that highway=crossing is a good

replacement for highway=traffic_calming.


The node is part of a highway, so an additional tag highway=traffic_calming

on the node is obsolete, and the wiki doesn't say anything

about adding sucha tag when mapping a traffic_calming.


Gerd





Von: Georg Feddern 
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 18:35
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

Am 20.11.2015 um 18:24 schrieb Gerd Petermann:
I found 940 nodes which were tagged with highway=traffic_calming.
Most of them were also tagged with e.g. traffic_calming=bump
or traffic_calming=table or one of the other well documented values.
A few were not tagged traffic_calming=*.

I changed those few to traffic_calming=yes and removed the obsolete
highway=traffic_calming tag from the other.
I also verified that the changed nodes are on a highway=* way.


If the highway=traffic_calming is obsolete in those cases -
why isn't

A few nodes were tagged with crossing=*, in those cases I added the tag
highway=crossing (and kept the traffic_calming=* tag)

highway=crossing obsolete in this cases?

Regards,
Georg
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Georg Feddern]

Am 20.11.2015 um 17:29 schrieb Marc Gemis:

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 5:23 PM, Florian Lohoff  wrote:

http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/LeaK3riwsMuv7f0i3Jt3XA/photo

I would tag the crossing as a node and the "table" as part of the way,
not as a node.


If it is really enforced to identify a traffic calming only by presence 
of highway=traffic_calming - this is the only way because



but a combination of highway=crossing; traffic_calming=table on a node
could work as well.


won't be identified as a traffic calming then.

Otherwise:
If a node with highway=crossing and with traffic_calming=* should be 
identified as a traffic_calming

we won't need highway=traffic_calming anymore ...

Regards,
Georg

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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

I don't propose to change this tagging style.



Maybe I was not clear about the intended improvement:

I found 940 nodes which were tagged with highway=traffic_calming.
Most of them were also tagged with e.g. traffic_calming=bump
or traffic_calming=table or one of the other well documented values.
A few were not tagged traffic_calming=*.

I changed those few to traffic_calming=yes and removed the obsolete
highway=traffic_calming tag from the other.
I also verified that the changed nodes are on a highway=* way.

A few nodes were tagged with crossing=*, in those cases I added the tag
highway=crossing (and kept the traffic_calming=* tag)

I think the only problem here is that I did this in a large changeset
and thus produced what is called a mechanical edit.

Gerd


Von: Volker Schmidt 
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 18:07
An: David Swarthout; Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

I routinely use the combination of
highway=crossing
crossing=uncontrolled
traffic_calming=table or traffic_calming=hump

example:
http://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1463764436
[http://www.openstreetmap.org/assets/osm_logo_256-835a859acf0d378e1d14e88b15e7b4b95211ccd41a2c061b1629cfbbb8deb697.png]

OpenStreetMap | Node: 1463764436
OpenStreetMap is a map of the world, created by people like you and free to use 
under an open license.
Weitere Informationen...



http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/tfK5PNthYcyeahBz_dXqeg/photo

For these combined features the synthax
highway=traffic_calming
traffic_calming=bump cannot be used

Also JOSM supports this combined mapping.

I thought this was the standard way of mapping the combination of pedestrian 
crossing and a slow-down hump or table.
Please do not touch these without discussion.




On 20 November 2015 at 17:41, Dave Swarthout 
> wrote:
The traffic_calming nodes I've added are common in Thailand where they are used 
to force traffic to go slow. These are most often bumps in the road, an asphalt 
or concrete bump, that will knock you off your motorcycle if you hit it fast 
enough. But they are definitely not crossings. I've seen a few traffic_calming 
"humps" (a longer bump) that have a crossing on them in Eugene, Oregon, but 
they are unusual, not the normal case.

On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Gerd Petermann 
> wrote:
Just to make sure:
I've not changed nodes tagged highway=crossing,
but I changed some that were tagged highway=traffic_calming
to highay=crossing. I see no problem to add a tag
like traffic_calming=island to the same node, but
I think that e.g. bumps are typically before the crossing,
so those should be tagged on a different node.

Gerd


Von: Rafael Avila Coya >
Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 17:10
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

Hi:

What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at the
same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where I
live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514

I find it is more important to mark it as a highway=crossing than a
highway=traffic_calming

Cheers,

Rafael.

On 20/11/15 16:19, GerdP wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
> highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
> traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
>
> The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
> also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
> it
> is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side
>
> So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
> instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
> and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
>
> After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
> as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
>
> As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
> and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
>
> Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
> I should revert all changes related to this tag.
>
> Gerd
>
>
>
>
> --
> View this message in context: 
> http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/improve-tagging-of-traffic-calming-tp5860596.html
> Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Tod Fitch]

A raised area several feet across with a marked crosswalk on top is not 
uncommon in Silicon Valley and more of them seem to appearing in residential 
areas. I suspect that it is one of the newer ways to address the combined issue 
of traffic calming and pedestrian crossing.





On November 20, 2015 9:41:00 AM MST, Dave Swarthout  
wrote:
>The traffic_calming nodes I've added are common in Thailand where they
>are
>used to force traffic to go slow. These are most often bumps in the
>road,
>an asphalt or concrete bump, that will knock you off your motorcycle if
>you
>hit it fast enough. But they are definitely not crossings. I've seen a
>few
>traffic_calming "humps" (a longer bump) that have a crossing on them in
>Eugene, Oregon, but they are unusual, not the normal case.
>
>On Fri, Nov 20, 2015 at 11:32 PM, Gerd Petermann <
>gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com> wrote:
>
>> Just to make sure:
>> I've not changed nodes tagged highway=crossing,
>> but I changed some that were tagged highway=traffic_calming
>> to highay=crossing. I see no problem to add a tag
>> like traffic_calming=island to the same node, but
>> I think that e.g. bumps are typically before the crossing,
>> so those should be tagged on a different node.
>>
>> Gerd
>>
>> 
>> Von: Rafael Avila Coya 
>> Gesendet: Freitag, 20. November 2015 17:10
>> An: tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> Betreff: Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming
>>
>> Hi:
>>
>> What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at
>the
>> same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where
>I
>> live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514
>>
>> I find it is more important to mark it as a highway=crossing than a
>> highway=traffic_calming
>>
>> Cheers,
>>
>> Rafael.
>>
>> On 20/11/15 16:19, GerdP wrote:
>> > Hi all,
>> >
>> > I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
>> > highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
>> > traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
>> >
>> > The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=*
>is not
>> > also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and
>thought
>> that
>> > it
>> > is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the
>highway
>> side
>> >
>> > So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where
>highway=crossing
>> > instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected
>to
>> roads
>> > and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
>> >
>> > After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by
>user
>> chilly
>> > as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
>> > http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
>> >
>> > As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
>> > and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking
>first.
>> >
>> > Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether
>or
>> not
>> > I should revert all changes related to this tag.
>> >
>> > Gerd
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> >
>> > --
>> > View this message in context:
>>
>http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/improve-tagging-of-traffic-calming-tp5860596.html
>> > Sent from the Tagging mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>> >
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2015-11-20 at 11:22 -0700, Tod Fitch wrote:
> A raised area several feet across with a marked crosswalk on top is
> not uncommon in Silicon Valley and more of them seem to appearing in
> residential areas. I suspect that it is one of the newer ways to
> address the combined issue of traffic calming and pedestrian
> crossing.
> 
> 
Most traffic calming features are not pedestrian crossings.

Where traffic_calming is not a pedestrian crossing then
highway=traffic_calming is the prefered way of tagging.

Phil (trigpoint)




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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Craig Wallace]

On 2015-11-20 16:33, Dave Swarthout wrote:

No. That change would not be okay.

AFAIK the correct tagging scenario is

highway=traffic_calming
traffic_calming=bump (or chicane, or other types as stated in the wiki
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming)

This is a hierarchical system of tagging that works well in other
situations. I suppose you could make an argument for using only the last
one but that needs a full discussion first.


Is the tag highway=traffic_calming documented anywhere?
There is no mention of it on the Key:traffic_calming wiki page that you 
linked to.



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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Dave F.]

Why is your display name different for what appears to be the exact same 
email address? So bloody annoying


Don't you think you should have started this conversation *before* 
making the edits?



Dave F.

On 20/11/2015 15:19, GerdP wrote:

Hi all,

I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.

The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
it
is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side
  
So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing

instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.

After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641

As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.

Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
I should revert all changes related to this tag.

Gerd




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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[John Willis]

> On Nov 21, 2015, at 3:31 AM, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> 
> Most traffic calming features are not pedestrian crossings.
> 
> Where traffic_calming is not a pedestrian crossing then
> highway=traffic_calming is the prefered way of tagging.

+1

If I read this discussion correctly, 
We're stuck on two issues:

1) the lack of highway=traffic calming on nodes where traffic_calming=* exists. 

- let's add highway=traffic calming. 

2) on nodes which are some form of ped crossing, what should take priority? 

- A footway marked as a crosswalk(zebra) is inherently a "traffic calming" 
feature - but it is first and foremost a crossing. Apparently a highway=node is 
preferred where the footway shares a node with the road's way. 

Highway=traffic_calming is for physical features that cannot be ignored. Paint 
can easily be ignored (ask any Californian about stop sign limit lines!) - so 
if it is just a crosswalk, then don't add the traffic_calming tag. If the 
crosswalk also has another feature (table, pinch point), then add those to a 
segment of the way that crosses the crosswalk (table) or a node immediately in 
front of the crosswalk node (for pinch point bollards) as the pinch affects the 
road but not the crosswalk. 

Barrier=* has several features that can be considered a barrier to some modes 
of transportation and has a traffic calming affect to others - bollards stop 
cars and slow cyclists, cycle barriers stop motor cycles and slow cyclists, etc 
- but traffic calming seems to be very centered on motorized vehicle traffic on 
roads, not sidewalks. 

Javbw
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Re: [Tagging] Opening hours, default for public holidays

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 19.11.2015 um 13:01 schrieb Stephan Knauss :
> 
> Wouldn't it be much more meaningful to assume a default of "PH off" and just 
> specify situations in which this is not the default? Likely the majority of 
> amenities with tagged opening hours are closed on public holidays.


defaults depend on context. A shop without a PH tag might be open or closed 
depending on the region it is in and the kind of shop it is. A museum will 
likely be open on most PH but most stuff including museums will be closed on 
Christmas, while churches are likely to be open on Christmas. A museum shop 
will typically be open when the museum is open, etc.. It is a very complex 
topic and the most sustainable solution is IMHO not to rely on any defaults but 
be explicit in your tagging.


cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Opening hours, default for public holidays

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 19.11.2015 um 13:01 schrieb Stephan Knauss :
> 
> Out of 445 banks in Bavaria with opening hours 417 would be open on a public 
> holiday (which is certainly always wrong).


banks are a particular amenity with typically very limited opening hours 
compared to other amenities. Germany is an exception too, because of a nazi law 
still in place which forces most businesses to remain closed on Sundays and 
public holidays, I'm not sure whether it would leave to sensible global default 
suggestions if we'd use the German situation as a model.

cheers 
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[André Pirard]

On 2015-11-20 17:10, Rafael Avila Coya wrote :
> Hi:
>
> What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at the
> same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where I
> live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514
>
> I find it is more important to mark it as a highway=crossing than a
> highway=traffic_calming
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rafael.
Always the same discussion.  With LST syntax it's extremely simple.

highway=crossing   means that the attribute "crossing" applies to the
object "highway".
It is equivalent to:

highway=yes(void attribute)
highway:crossing=yesmeans that the attribute "crossing" is true for
"highway"

Then we can *also* have
highway:traffic_calming=yesmeans that the attribute
"traffic_calming" is *also* true for "highway"
And, finally, as, by default, an attribute applies to the main attribute
or, if it does not exist ("yes"), to the object,
this is syntactically equivalent:

highway=yes
crossing=yes
traffic_calming=yes

(and "yes" can be replaced with a (single) attribute of crossing and
traffic_calming if needed

Please note that this is a question of syntax. I am not discussing here
if we should use highway=* or not. I'm assuming you do.

Cheers=yes

André.


> On 20/11/15 16:19, GerdP wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as 
>> highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
>> traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
>>
>> The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
>> also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
>> it
>> is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side 
>>  
>> So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
>> instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
>> and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
>>
>> After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
>> as an undiscussed mechanical edit, see
>> http://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
>>
>> As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay, 
>> and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
>>
>> Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
>> I should revert all changes related to this tag.
>>
>> Gerd
>>
>>

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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Dave Swarthout]

Sorry all. I'm on Thailand time and had to sleep.

The highway=traffic_calming key is found on the top level highway page
here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:highway. On that page a link
to the types of traffic_calming device appears:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:traffic_calming.

I assume they are to be used together. As I said earlier, one could make an
argument for skipping the highway=traffic_calming key but as it stands now,
I think the two go together. YMMV

On Sat, Nov 21, 2015 at 6:11 AM, André Pirard 
wrote:

> On 2015-11-20 17:10, Rafael Avila Coya wrote :
>
> Hi:
>
> What happens when a traffic calming is a crossing for pedestrians at the
> same time? I have some examples in this avenue of my home town where I
> live: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/1080908514
>
> I find it is more important to mark it as a highway=crossing than a
> highway=traffic_calming
>
> Cheers,
>
> Rafael.
>
> Always the same discussion.  With LST syntax it's extremely simple.
>
> highway=crossing   means that the attribute "crossing" applies to the
> object "highway".
> It is equivalent to:
>
> highway=yes(void attribute)
> highway:crossing=yesmeans that the attribute "crossing" is true for
> "highway"
>
> Then we can *also* have
> highway:traffic_calming=yesmeans that the attribute "traffic_calming"
> is *also* true for "highway"
> And, finally, as, by default, an attribute applies to the main attribute
> or, if it does not exist ("yes"), to the object,
> this is syntactically equivalent:
>
> highway=yes
> crossing=yes
> traffic_calming=yes
>
> (and "yes" can be replaced with a (single) attribute of crossing and
> traffic_calming if needed
>
> Please note that this is a question of syntax. I am not discussing here if
> we should use highway=* or not. I'm assuming you do.
>
> Cheers=yes
>
> André.
>
> On 20/11/15 16:19, GerdP wrote:
>
> Hi all,
>
> I've noticed that a few (940) traffic_calmings are mapped as
> highway=traffic_calming , most of them also have the tag
> traffic_calming=*, but ~ 10% did not.
>
> The vast majority (> 212000) of the nodes tagged traffic_calming=* is not
> also tagged highway=traffic_calming. I looked at the wiki and thought that
> it
> is simply a bit missleading as traffic_calming appears on the highway side
>
> So I started to cleanup, found a few nodes which where highway=crossing
> instead of traffic_calming, found a few nodes not (yet) connected to roads
> and finally decided to do a few larger changes today.
>
> After the last change one of the bigger changes was commented by user chilly
> as an undiscussed mechanical edit, 
> seehttp://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/35457641
>
> As stated in the changeset comment I hope that the change is okay,
> and I am sorry that I start this discussion now instead of asking first.
>
> Please let me know what you think about the edit itself and whether or not
> I should revert all changes related to this tag.
>
> Gerd
>
>
>
>
>
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>
>


-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] improve tagging of traffic_calming

[Gerd Petermann]

Dave F. wrote
> Why is your display name different for what appears to be the exact same 
> email address? So bloody annoying

Yes, and I hope that I've now found the right way to change that.
I often use the GIS interface to write posts as it is much easier to use
then the interface provided by Microsofts outlook.com. 
If I did it right, this post should appear as "Gerd Petermann"

ciao,
Gerd (GerdP)





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