Re: [Tagging] waterway=fish_pass consistency

[Yves]

Ah, and I have a waterway=lift, fish=yes nearby :)
https://www.google.com/search?q=orbe+ascenseur+a+poisson=fr-CH=android-browser=ivsn=lnms=isch=X=0ahUKEwiTx97MuK_cAhVEVywKHbOlCk0Q_AUIESgB=360=518#imgrc=Luw0xusYIWLRUM:

Yves


Le 21 juillet 2018 00:55:34 GMT+02:00, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
 a écrit :
>On 20 July 2018 at 23:23, Richard  wrote:
>
>>
>> indeed and as they are getting more widespread more variations can be
>> expected.
>>
>
>One was mentioned near here last week that they have installed a full
>on
>lock for fish to bypass a weir.
>
>They swim into a chamber through the bottom gate which automatically
>closes
>after x minutes, fills with water then the top gate opens to allow the
>fish
>to swim out & proceed up river.
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Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

[Kevin Kenny]

>> Does light reach the bottom of the deepest point of the water body?
>> Does the water body only get small waves (i.e., smaller than 1ft/30cm in 
>> height)?
>> Is the water body relatively uniform in temperature?
>>
>> If these questions can be answered with a “yes,” the water body is likely a 
>> pond and not a lake.1
>>
>> Other national technical typologies do include a lower area requirement 
>> ranging from .5 hectares ( 'two NFL football fields' for USA residents ) to 
>> 2 hectares, and other various factors like inflow/outflow, relation to the 
>> water table, sediment suspension, etc.

I tag it all 'natural=water' and let other people worry about the
difference between a man-made pond and a reservoir and a flooded
basin. (I do use 'landuse=basin' for the ones that are only
ephemerally flooded.)

Otherwise, I'd go crazy with trying to label things in the complex
glaciokarst topography around here. Examples:

A 'lake' that is actually a permanently flooded ponor, with its outlet
an intermittent stream that flows in the wet season, and is rejoined
below the escarpment with several streams flowing out of cave
entrances, one of which is suspected to be the main drainage of the
lake.

A tarn or two.

A flooded kettlehole or two.

Large sporadic water bodies - some running to hundreds of hectares and
big enough to land float planes - that will be wet meadows in years
that the beavers aren't in residence. These are definitely impounded
reservoirs - but the impoundment isn't anthropogenic!

Reservoirs formed by anthropogenic raising of the water level of existing lakes.

And that's before we even get into trying to distinguish the things by
pH. (Acid bogs vs neutral-to-alkaline fens, etc.)

At least few people here are trying to distinguish based on area
alone. That's very good. If I want "waterbodies in excess of 10,000
m²" or whatever, I can compute areas from the geometries, thank you
very much. No reason to have separate tagging for just that!

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Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

[Warin]

On 21/07/18 09:23, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
On 21 July 2018 at 04:59, Michael Patrick>wrote:



  * Does light reach the bottom of the deepest point of the water
body?
  * Does the water body only get small waves (i.e., smaller than
1ft/30cm in height)?
  * Is the water body relatively uniform in temperature?

If these questions can be answered with a “yes,” the water body is
likely a pond and not a lake.^1

Other national technical typologies do include a lower area
requirement ranging from .5 hectares ( 'two NFL football fields'
for USA residents ) to 2 hectares, and other various factors like
inflow/outflow, relation to the water table, sediment suspension, etc.



On 21 July 2018 at 05:20, Dave Swarthout > wrote:


My criteria for deciding between lake and pond are therefore
mostly based on size. Sometimes a lake-sized water body is
obviously very shallow and so I tag it as a pond.

Being an awkward Aussie again :-)

Lake Eyre, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Eyre, when full, has a 
surface area of "9,500 km^2  (3,668 sq mi)" but has only filled a 
handful of times in the last ~150 years. Even when full, the maximum 
water depth in the deepest spot is only 6 m's, with most being <3 m's, 
& the water is virtually transparent, so that the lake bottom can 
still be seen from the air.


So this makes it only a pond? (& a intermittent one at that! :-))


Ephemeral. :)

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Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

 On 21 July 2018 at 04:59, Michael Patrick  wrote:

>
>
>- Does light reach the bottom of the deepest point of the water body?
>- Does the water body only get small waves (i.e., smaller than
>1ft/30cm in height)?
>- Is the water body relatively uniform in temperature?
>
> If these questions can be answered with a “yes,” the water body is likely
> a pond and not a lake.1
> Other national technical typologies do include a lower area requirement
> ranging from .5 hectares ( 'two NFL football fields' for USA residents ) to
> 2 hectares, and other various factors like inflow/outflow, relation to the
> water table, sediment suspension, etc.
>


On 21 July 2018 at 05:20, Dave Swarthout  wrote:

> My criteria for deciding between lake and pond are therefore mostly based
> on size. Sometimes a lake-sized water body is obviously very shallow and so
> I tag it as a pond.
>

Being an awkward Aussie again :-)

Lake Eyre, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lake_Eyre, when full, has a
surface area of "9,500 km2 (3,668 sq mi)" but has only filled a handful of
times in the last ~150 years. Even when full, the maximum water depth in
the deepest spot is only 6 m's, with most being <3 m's, & the water is
virtually transparent, so that the lake bottom can still be seen from the
air.

So this makes it only a pond? (& a intermittent one at that! :-))
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Re: [Tagging] waterway=fish_pass consistency

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On 20 July 2018 at 23:23, Richard  wrote:

>
> indeed and as they are getting more widespread more variations can be
> expected.
>

One was mentioned near here last week that they have installed a full on
lock for fish to bypass a weir.

They swim into a chamber through the bottom gate which automatically closes
after x minutes, fills with water then the top gate opens to allow the fish
to swim out & proceed up river.
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport v3 — starting RFC

[Dave F]

Hi

In the UK the are forty relations as site=railway_station with the role 
of 'stop'. Am I correct in think these are redundant in relation to the 
current PT schema?


I asked what stop_areas are for on the OSM forum. Could you clarify? The 
wiki states what they are, but not their usage. Are there any routers 
etc who make use of them? Are they really needed? Why were bike racks or 
toilets included in some?


I'm very glad to see it's proposed to deprecated 'stop_position, 
platform and station'. 'Station', when used on railway-station was 
duplication of data which led to confusion & errors. Unsure about "They 
can be used, but they don't mean anything anymore." If they don't mean 
anything they shouldn't be used & removed. The database shouldn't be 
filled with irrelevant gumpf.


What are stop_area_groups for? It appears they just add further layers 
of confusion. Relations aren't meant to be a 'collection of things'. If 
stop_area can be found by something like an API query call, do they need 
to be in a relation? Will/do routers use them?


Could you clarify what is meant by 'segment' in "Stops (platforms) are 
mandatory for a route relation, and segments are not."


"bus=yes, tram=yes, subway=yes" tags on the Station and Stop objects 
will be duplication & superfluous.


I agree that Stations and Stops should be separate from buildings & 
landuse.


The last line of 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport_v3#Stops_and_Stations 
mentions 'public_transport=station'. which I thought you said was 
deprecated.


Regards
DaveF

On 20/07/2018 14:48, Ilya Zverev wrote:

Hi folks,

As you might've noticed, in the past year there has been growing discomfort 
with the current Public Transport tagging schema. Of course, it brought order 
to our route relations, but also introduced a lot of redundant concepts. We've 
seen a couple proposals aiming to fix some of issues, but nothing stuck.

Please consider this new revision for the PT schema, which addresses most of 
the issues, while keeping as backward compatible as possible:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport_v3

I'd be happy to hear any suggestions. Next week, I'll be presenting it, among other 
things, during my talk "What's up with the public transport" at the State of 
the Map conference.

Thanks,
Ilya
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Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

[Dave Swarthout]

Michael wrote:
>Both lakes and ponds are standing or slow-moving bodies of water. There
are no official or scientific differences >between lakes and ponds. Lakes
are larger than ponds, but size is relative. What would be considered a
pond in one >region might be considered a lake in another.

I totally agree with this characterization. I do most of my mapping of
rural Alaska using satellite imagery, for many reasons, not the least being
that I cannot ever visit these wild and dauntingly remote places to check
out water flows, depths, etc. My criteria for deciding between lake and
pond are therefore mostly based on size. Sometimes a lake-sized water body
is obviously very shallow and so I tag it as a pond. Sometimes I pause and
question my choice because it is almost impossible to know for sure what's
appropriate.

I also do a lot of mapping in Thailand where there are thousands of little
man-made ponds, perhaps more properly reservoirs, used to supply water for
thirsty rice paddies. These I always tag as ponds.

My 2 cents

Dave



On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 11:05 AM Paul Allen  wrote:

>
>
> On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Michael Patrick 
> wrote:
>
>
>> The proper name of the water feature usually has nothing to do with
>> these, though. Our area has numerous 'Lake Something's which are
>> impoundments that barely would would classify as ponds, basically created
>> by real estate developers as bulldozer scrapes into the local water table.
>>
>
> A hydromorphologicaly-aware  mapper will tag one of those as:
>
>   name=Lake Exaggeration
>   natural=water
>   water=pond
>   note=Damned real-estate developers did it again.  My bathtub is bigger
> than this.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] [OKFILTER] Public Transport v3 — starting RFC

[Johnparis]

This is a very long and complex proposal, so it will take me a while to
digest and respond. I am also alerting the transport mailing lists in
English and French. I trust the RFC will be open for at least for a couple
of months.

Cette proposition (en anglais) est très longue et complexe, il me faudra
donc du temps pour digérer et répondre. J'alert également les listes de
diffusion de transport en anglais et en français. J'espère que le RFC sera
ouvert au moins pour quelques mois.

John

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 3:48 PM, Ilya Zverev  wrote:

> Hi folks,
>
> As you might've noticed, in the past year there has been growing
> discomfort with the current Public Transport tagging schema. Of course, it
> brought order to our route relations, but also introduced a lot of
> redundant concepts. We've seen a couple proposals aiming to fix some of
> issues, but nothing stuck.
>
> Please consider this new revision for the PT schema, which addresses most
> of the issues, while keeping as backward compatible as possible:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport_v3
>
> I'd be happy to hear any suggestions. Next week, I'll be presenting it,
> among other things, during my talk "What's up with the public transport" at
> the State of the Map conference.
>
> Thanks,
> Ilya
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 7:59 PM, Michael Patrick 
wrote:


> The proper name of the water feature usually has nothing to do with these,
> though. Our area has numerous 'Lake Something's which are impoundments that
> barely would would classify as ponds, basically created by real estate
> developers as bulldozer scrapes into the local water table.
>

A hydromorphologicaly-aware  mapper will tag one of those as:

  name=Lake Exaggeration
  natural=water
  water=pond
  note=Damned real-estate developers did it again.  My bathtub is bigger
than this.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

[Michael Patrick]

Form a hyrdomorphology / geomorphology technical perspective, the following
key fairly succinctly characterizes the differences.( from
http://www.lakescientist.com/lake-facts/how-lakes-differ/ ):
*Lakes vs. Ponds*

Both lakes and ponds are standing or slow-moving bodies of water. There are
no official or scientific differences between lakes and ponds. Lakes are
larger than ponds, but size is relative. What would be considered a pond in
one region might be considered a lake in another. In general, water bodies
that are considered lakes in dry areas would only be considered ponds in
regions with abundant water resources where there are more (and larger)
bodies of water. Despite the lack of official characteristics, there are
several questions that are used to generally distinguish ponds from lakes:

   - Does light reach the bottom of the deepest point of the water body?
   - Does the water body only get small waves (i.e., smaller than 1ft/30cm
   in height)?
   - Is the water body relatively uniform in temperature?

If these questions can be answered with a “yes,” the water body is likely a
pond and not a lake.1
Other national technical typologies do include a lower area requirement
ranging from .5 hectares ( 'two NFL football fields' for USA residents ) to
2 hectares, and other various factors like inflow/outflow, relation to the
water table, sediment suspension, etc.

The proper name of the water feature usually has nothing to do with these,
though. Our area has numerous 'Lake Something's which are impoundments that
barely would would classify as ponds, basically created by real estate
developers as bulldozer scrapes into the local water table.

Michael Patrick
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[Tagging] Public Transport v3 — starting RFC

[Ilya Zverev]

Hi folks,

As you might've noticed, in the past year there has been growing discomfort 
with the current Public Transport tagging schema. Of course, it brought order 
to our route relations, but also introduced a lot of redundant concepts. We've 
seen a couple proposals aiming to fix some of issues, but nothing stuck.

Please consider this new revision for the PT schema, which addresses most of 
the issues, while keeping as backward compatible as possible:

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport_v3

I'd be happy to hear any suggestions. Next week, I'll be presenting it, among 
other things, during my talk "What's up with the public transport" at the State 
of the Map conference.

Thanks,
Ilya
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Re: [Tagging] waterway=fish_pass consistency

[Richard]

On Thu, Jul 19, 2018 at 11:16:57AM +0200, Yves wrote:
> You'd be *very* surprised what shapes fish passes can take.
> I don't think it's a good idea to use the waterway key to tell that whatever 
> feature is intended to be a fish pass. 
> This one, although man made is definitely a river, that was built as 1) a 
> fish pass, 2} a whitewater course. 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=17/45.84919/5.41420

indeed and as they are getting more widespread more variations can be
expected.

Recently a small river nearby was converted to a fishpass where a weir
was previously. Thus it is definitely a river and a fishpass at the
same time and I have seen kayakers going down there.

So using a particular watervay value is no longer fitting but at the same 
time I don't like using more and more top-level keys to describe particular
properties of waterways if there is no reason to believe that for example
the fish_ass property will be ever useful to any non-waterway object.

Richard

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Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

[Philip Barnes]

On 20 July 2018 11:51:39 BST, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>Was the depression, where the water is, formed by man? If so then it 
>could be tagged as a basin ..
>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dbasin
>
>Reservoirs are not only for irrigation, many around me are there to 
>supply water for human consumption.
>So I don't think the use of the water is relevant to defining a
>reservoir.

And some around here are to store water for the canal system. 

Phil (trigpoint) 
>
>On 20/07/18 20:41, Sebastian wrote:
>> Hi,
>>
>> With artificial I meant it is a hole with a plastic foil. Everything 
>> except sand is artificial and needs to be maintainer in this region.
>>
>> I have been contemplating if these lakes are also used as a reservoir
>
>> for irrigation myself. However I can't confirm or deny this.
>>
>> I'll keep the lake tags then, no pond.
>>
>> PS: I hope my response to the digest gets filed properly.
>>
>> -- Forwarded message --
>> From: Volker Schmidt mailto:vosc...@gmail.com>>
>> To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" 
>> mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>>
>> Cc:
>> Bcc:
>> Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:49:46 +0200
>> Subject: Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond
>> ... or a reservoir, as Warin points out.
>>
>> On 20 July 2018 at 11:46, Volker Schmidt > > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> The description in the (OSM) wiki states: "A pond: a body of
>> standing water, man-made in most cases, that is usually
>> smaller than a lake."
>>
>> This definition is different from the Wikipedia definition:
>> " A *pond* is a body
>
>> of standing water
>> , either natural
>> or artificial, that is usually smaller than a lake
>>  "
>>
>> What are your thoughts?
>>
>>
>> Our wiki is misleading
>> The "thing" in the Mapillary photo is a lake, not a pond,
>> regardless of what the OSM wiki says.
>> It's too large for a pond
>>
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> ___
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-- 
Sent from my Android device with K-9 Mail. Please excuse my brevity.

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Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

[Warin]

Was the depression, where the water is, formed by man? If so then it 
could be tagged as a basin ..

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dbasin

Reservoirs are not only for irrigation, many around me are there to 
supply water for human consumption.

So I don't think the use of the water is relevant to defining a reservoir.

On 20/07/18 20:41, Sebastian wrote:

Hi,

With artificial I meant it is a hole with a plastic foil. Everything 
except sand is artificial and needs to be maintainer in this region.


I have been contemplating if these lakes are also used as a reservoir 
for irrigation myself. However I can't confirm or deny this.


I'll keep the lake tags then, no pond.

PS: I hope my response to the digest gets filed properly.

-- Forwarded message --
From: Volker Schmidt mailto:vosc...@gmail.com>>
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" 
mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>>

Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:49:46 +0200
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond
... or a reservoir, as Warin points out.

On 20 July 2018 at 11:46, Volker Schmidt > wrote:




The description in the (OSM) wiki states: "A pond: a body of
standing water, man-made in most cases, that is usually
smaller than a lake."

This definition is different from the Wikipedia definition:
" A *pond* is a body 
of standing water
, either natural
or artificial, that is usually smaller than a lake
 "

What are your thoughts?


Our wiki is misleading
The "thing" in the Mapillary photo is a lake, not a pond,
regardless of what the OSM wiki says.
It's too large for a pond





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Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

[Sebastian]

 Hi,

With artificial I meant it is a hole with a plastic foil. Everything except
sand is artificial and needs to be maintainer in this region.

I have been contemplating if these lakes are also used as a reservoir for
irrigation myself. However I can't confirm or deny this.

I'll keep the lake tags then, no pond.

PS: I hope my response to the digest gets filed properly.

-- Forwarded message --
From: Volker Schmidt 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" 
Cc:
Bcc:
Date: Fri, 20 Jul 2018 11:49:46 +0200
Subject: Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond
... or a reservoir, as Warin points out.

On 20 July 2018 at 11:46, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

>
>
> The description in the (OSM) wiki states: "A pond: a body of standing
>> water, man-made in most cases, that is usually smaller than a lake."
>>
> This definition is different from the Wikipedia definition:
> " A *pond* is a body  of standing
> water , either natural or
> artificial, that is usually smaller than a lake
>  "
>
> What are your thoughts?
>>
>
> Our wiki is misleading
> The "thing" in the Mapillary photo is a lake, not a pond, regardless of
> what the OSM wiki says.
> It's too large for a pond
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

[Volker Schmidt]

... or a reservoir, as Warin points out.

On 20 July 2018 at 11:46, Volker Schmidt  wrote:

>
>
> The description in the (OSM) wiki states: "A pond: a body of standing
>> water, man-made in most cases, that is usually smaller than a lake."
>>
> This definition is different from the Wikipedia definition:
> " A *pond* is a body  of standing
> water , either natural or
> artificial, that is usually smaller than a lake
>  "
>
> What are your thoughts?
>>
>
> Our wiki is misleading
> The "thing" in the Mapillary photo is a lake, not a pond, regardless of
> what the OSM wiki says.
> It's too large for a pond
>
>
>
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

[Volker Schmidt]

The description in the (OSM) wiki states: "A pond: a body of standing
> water, man-made in most cases, that is usually smaller than a lake."
>
This definition is different from the Wikipedia definition:
" A *pond* is a body  of standing
water , either natural or
artificial, that is usually smaller than a lake
 "

What are your thoughts?
>

Our wiki is misleading
The "thing" in the Mapillary photo is a lake, not a pond, regardless of
what the OSM wiki says.
It's too large for a pond
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Re: [Tagging] Lake or Pond

[Warin]

On 20/07/18 19:23, Sebastian wrote:

Hello List,

in the UAE/Emirates Hills area, particular around 'The Springs' there 
are a number or lakes. All lakes are artificial.


Image example here: 
https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/bjCPLyUtXUhDAvOPqQWeUw


Reading through Key:water in the OpenStreetMap Wiki I wonder if these 
should be tagged as pond.

natural=water
water=pond

The description in the wiki states: "A pond: a body of standing water, 
man-made in most cases, that is usually smaller than a lake."


What does that mean? What is a typical size of a lake and is a large 
artificial 'lake' then no pond?
The body of water I have linked to in Mapillary is a lake of medium 
size in this area. There are smaller and larger ones. All are artificial.


What are your thoughts?


In what way artificial?
A dam to block the water? Then it is a reservoir..
Sorry but I cannot see how water gets in or out.


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[Tagging] Lake or Pond

[Sebastian]

Hello List,

in the UAE/Emirates Hills area, particular around 'The Springs' there are a
number or lakes. All lakes are artificial.

Image example here: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/bjCPLyUtXUhDAvOPqQWeUw

Reading through Key:water in the OpenStreetMap Wiki I wonder if these
should be tagged as pond.
natural=water
water=pond

The description in the wiki states: "A pond: a body of standing water,
man-made in most cases, that is usually smaller than a lake."

What does that mean? What is a typical size of a lake and is a large
artificial 'lake' then no pond?
The body of water I have linked to in Mapillary is a lake of medium size in
this area. There are smaller and larger ones. All are artificial.

What are your thoughts?

Cheers,
Seb
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Re: [Tagging] building=clubhouse

[Warin]

On 20/07/18 15:40, Marc Gemis wrote:


building=clubhouse is fine as value, unless

- the club is located in a pub (e.g. darts, pools, biljarts)
- the club is located in the former barn of a farm (e.g. old timer
(car) club I know).
- perhaps building=civic when the club is located in a town hall or so.

there are probably other examples where a club is located in a
building that not build as a building to house a club.


Agreed.
Usually the club uses the those premisses part time.
I would think the building would be tagged with the appropriate thing, pub, 
barn, etc and the club be placed as a node.
I know of one club that bought a pub, so sometimes the building might be used 
as a clubhouse but be built as something else.



There are plenty of buildings for soccer clubs (or other sports) or
dog school/clubs that I see as building=clubhouse. Just not all of
them.

m.

On Fri, Jul 20, 2018 at 7:21 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

On 19/07/18 18:20, Tobias Knerr wrote:

On 19.07.2018 05:15, Warin wrote:

Would it not be best to combine all theses into building=clubhouse?

I'm not opposed to the general idea of having a sport-independent tag
for clubhouses, if we can agree on a suitable tag. However, please
remember that the value of building=* does _not_ indicate what the
building is used for. So I don't think it's a good choice for this
purpose.

Building is supposed to be used for the outside appearance.
However building=house is used, and there are many different varieties
of appearances of houses .. yet they all have the same function.
Similar variations exist for other OSM buildings.
Yet there looks to be little in the way of mappers complaining about the
tagging.
Clubhouses exhibit a similar range, yet they do have characteristics
that help identify them.

Leaving them marked building=yes and having to include another tag for
'clubhouse' I don't think is good.

If there is to be yet another tag then perhaps building:function=* might
be used?
Of course almost all building=house would be tagged
building:function=house, same for commercial etc etc .. they almost
always have the same function.
There, of course, are a few exceptions... perhaps this is a way of
tagging them.
The default value for building:function could be taken as that of the
building= tag to make life easier for the vast majority of features.

???

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