Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
On 10 August 2018 at 23:39, Paul Allen wrote: > This is a different problem from which separator to use. I wondered if anyone would remember that question! -- Andy Mabbett @pigsonthewing http://pigsonthewing.org.uk ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
I don't see anyone trying to change your way. Verzonden vanaf mijn Samsung Galaxy-smartphone. Oorspronkelijk bericht Van: Jo Datum: 11-08-18 09:29 (GMT+01:00) Aan: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools" Onderwerp: Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names It's actually funny how these things go. Several years ago, mappers asked: How can we map multilingual names. We told them: In Brussels we do it with a spaced hyphen. Oh thank you, we'll do it in a different way. Several years later, people wonder why there are different ways for doing things and attempt to 'standardise' these separators. Polyglot Op za 11 aug. 2018 om 09:09 schreef Martin Koppenhoefer : sent from a phone > On 11. Aug 2018, at 06:13, Marc Gemis wrote: > > I find it hard to understand why non-Belgians try to change a rule > that is accepted by the Belgian community. The name field contains the > name of the object as known by the local people. Not what an > Englishmen or anyone else knows the place as. There is no 1 name, > there are multiple names that have to be placed in 1 field. We could > have chosen a semi-colon, as dash, or a any other separator. We chose > " - ". nobody questions the local names, the discussion is about the separator, which has nothing to do with the on the ground situation AFAIK, because there this is solved typographically (different line or different font(size)). Using the same separator for the same thing (several names in different languages) is a general thing that could be done the same on a global level, it’s not something each local community must decide on their own (if they did, how it is now, there’s not much harm) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
It's actually funny how these things go. Several years ago, mappers asked: How can we map multilingual names. We told them: In Brussels we do it with a spaced hyphen. Oh thank you, we'll do it in a different way. Several years later, people wonder why there are different ways for doing things and attempt to 'standardise' these separators. Polyglot Op za 11 aug. 2018 om 09:09 schreef Martin Koppenhoefer < dieterdre...@gmail.com>: > > > sent from a phone > > > On 11. Aug 2018, at 06:13, Marc Gemis wrote: > > > > I find it hard to understand why non-Belgians try to change a rule > > that is accepted by the Belgian community. The name field contains the > > name of the object as known by the local people. Not what an > > Englishmen or anyone else knows the place as. There is no 1 name, > > there are multiple names that have to be placed in 1 field. We could > > have chosen a semi-colon, as dash, or a any other separator. We chose > > " - ". > > > nobody questions the local names, the discussion is about the separator, > which has nothing to do with the on the ground situation AFAIK, because > there this is solved typographically (different line or different > font(size)). > > Using the same separator for the same thing (several names in different > languages) is a general thing that could be done the same on a global > level, it’s not something each local community must decide on their own (if > they did, how it is now, there’s not much harm) > > > cheers, > Martin > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging > ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
sent from a phone > On 11. Aug 2018, at 06:13, Marc Gemis wrote: > > I find it hard to understand why non-Belgians try to change a rule > that is accepted by the Belgian community. The name field contains the > name of the object as known by the local people. Not what an > Englishmen or anyone else knows the place as. There is no 1 name, > there are multiple names that have to be placed in 1 field. We could > have chosen a semi-colon, as dash, or a any other separator. We chose > " - ". nobody questions the local names, the discussion is about the separator, which has nothing to do with the on the ground situation AFAIK, because there this is solved typographically (different line or different font(size)). Using the same separator for the same thing (several names in different languages) is a general thing that could be done the same on a global level, it’s not something each local community must decide on their own (if they did, how it is now, there’s not much harm) cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
I am not trying to change any accepted local rule. Mvg Peter Elderson Op 11 aug. 2018 om 06:13 heeft Marc Gemis het volgende geschreven: >> I find it hard to understand why some mappers do not want to map reality. >> Unless it's because they wish the street >> signs were really monolingual. There are people where I live who object to >> any use of English, should I cater to >> their whims by amending all names around here to remove the English text or >> should I map what is there? > > I find it hard to understand why non-Belgians try to change a rule > that is accepted by the Belgian community. The name field contains the > name of the object as known by the local people. Not what an > Englishmen or anyone else knows the place as. There is no 1 name, > there are multiple names that have to be placed in 1 field. We could > have chosen a semi-colon, as dash, or a any other separator. We chose > " - ". The decision was taken before I joined the project in 2011. > Perhaps the decision was influenced by what the rendered map looks > like. Avenue Simon Bolivar - Simon Bolivarlaan make more sense on a > map, looks nicer than "Avenue Simon Bolivar;Simon Bolivarlaan" or > whatever. I doubt there are maps that show the contracted name. > > The name for Belgium "Belgique - België - Belgien" will not be found > on the signs you see when you enter the country. The sign depends on > the language spoken in the area at the border. So when you arrive in > Belgium on the Flemish side you will see "België". Will you change the > name when you survey the area there ? > > Traditional maps show the 3 names, I don't know which separator they > use, but it's unlikely they used ";". > > m. > > p.s. from a discussion on Welsh street names on the UK mailing list, I > doubt it is accepted that you write both the Welsh name and the > English name in the name field. > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Slash, space, or spaced hyphen in multi-lingual names
If I knew about usual abbrevs I would probably expand those. If I was not sure, I would not. Usually, looking at existing names in the area tells me what to do. If there are variants on different signs in an area/language I don’t know, I tend to do nothing at all, but if I had to I would either give them all with slashes, or just pick one which makes the most sense to me, both cases assuming I can tell if the same name is meant. Spelling errors, if I can see that it’s an error, of course I will correct, but if I can’t be sure and still want to map, giving both is not so bad. Some local mapper will eventually correct it, probably. In any case, if there is an authoratative source and the local usance is to use that, fine with me, then I would of course not “correct” that to any other scheme. Apart from naming considerations, a line break indicator in long text fields is not a bad idea, I think. Mvg Peter Elderson > Op 11 aug. 2018 om 01:14 heeft Jo het volgende > geschreven: > > What if the street sign said: > > St Francis St. > > would you be putting that exactly as is in the name tag? > > I would put > > Saint Francis Street > > in it. > > What if there are 3 signs, one with > St Francis St. > Saintt Francis St. > St Francis Street > > It may be a longer street, it may be that time passed by between when those > signs were placed. But this does happen. > > Are you reatlly going to put > name=St Francis St./Saintt Francis St./St Francis Street > > to cover all your bases? > > It's exactly the same situation. You're allowed to use some amount of your > brain power to get from what you find on the signs before adding the > contents to OSM. > > Op za 11 aug. 2018 om 01:05 schreef Paul Allen : >> >> On Fri, Aug 10, 2018 at 11:38 PM, Jo wrote: >>> Fortunately all streets in Brussels are already mapped, based on official >>> data from Urbis. So the person from Biel who would prefer to put / in those >>> names doesn't need to to so anymore. >>> >>> There are definitely street name signs which are wrong. It would be absurd >>> to copy that wrong text into the name tags. It's not so wrong that is >>> something completely different. >>> >>> Besides many street name signs in Brussels are like this: >>> >>> Avenue >>> Simon Bolivar >>> laan >>> >>> Even if that is a spelling error in itself. >>> name=Avenue Simon Bolivar - Simon Bolivarlaan >>> name:nl=Simon Bolivarlaan >>> >>> words glue together in Dutch, like they do in German. >> >> Given that situation I'd say the best way to map it is: >> >> name=Avenue Simon Bolivar Laan >> name:nl=Simon Bolivarlaan >> name:fr=Avenue Simon Bolivar >> >>> Anyway, we don't want to put exactly what is on the street name signs in >>> our name tags. >> >> Why not? It's what is on the sign. If that is what is on the sign then >> that is what is ought to be mapped. Or maybe >> I should change roads into rivers because I prefer rivers and I don't want >> to map exactly what is on the ground. >> >>> It's simply not practical >> >> Why? String length isn't a data problem unless the string exceeds some >> arbitrary length allocated in the >> database schema. It takes me a lot less time to type a long bilingual name >> for a highway than to trace the >> highway itself. >> >>> and it would very quickly become nonsensical. >> >> If "name=Avenue Simon Bolivar Laan" is nonsensical then the street sign is >> nonsensical. Complain to your >> local elected representative and ask him/her for legislation to change the >> naming conventions of street signs. >> >> I find it hard to understand why some mappers do not want to map reality. >> Unless it's because they wish the street >> signs were really monolingual. There are people where I live who object to >> any use of English, should I cater to >> their whims by amending all names around here to remove the English text or >> should I map what is there? >> >> -- >> Paul >> > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
