Re: [Tagging] Stolpersteine tagging scheme problem

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 25.08.2018 o 02:49, Paul Allen pisze:

> I did some searching pretty much at random and found
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4892971695 which has
> memorial=stoperstein + memorial:type=stolperstein, which is one way of
> handling the problem.

Dual tagging of a single feature is just a workaround (not a "tagging
for rendering" though, because it doesn't lie about reality) and I bet
this is done for rendering it on OSM.org (by OSM Carto).

But since a direct reason for this change is proposed change in OSM
Carto rendering (making Stolpersteine less obtrusive, like plaque),
there will be no more a need to do this.

I also think it could help other data consumers.

> So it would be nice if whatever you decide doesn't break that.  Have a
> word with lutz - he's a nice guy.

Thanks. He has already responded in this thread as the one who has
chosen historic=memorial + memorial=plaque + plaque=stolperstein (as
opposed to 4 others who prefer historic=memorial + memorial=stolperstein):

https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?pid=712055#p712055


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Re: [Tagging] Slow vehicle turnouts

[Kevin Kenny]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 8:18 PM Dave Swarthout  wrote:
>
> I've been trying to decide tagging for slow-vehicle turnouts consisting of a 
> lane added to the right side (in the U.S.) of the road so that slow moving 
> vehicles can pull aside to allow following vehicles to pass. The best I can 
> come up with is the tag highway=passing_place but strangely it applies only 
> to nodes. I'm looking for examples from the real world similar to the one in 
> this JOSM screenshot. I've selected both the passing lanes to color them red 
> so you can see them.
>
> I had been using a variable number of lanes to describe the situation but 
> these two passing_places are offset making using the lanes tags cumbersome to 
> apply, 4 separate pieces, lanes going in different directions, oneway 
> sections, etc. According to the Wiki, the passing_place tag is to be used 
> only on nodes. 
> (https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpassing_place) Why this 
> should be so, I do not understand.

lanes:forward=* and lanes:backward=* is the best that I've found so
far to describe truck climbing lanes and similar features. They don't
appear in your image to be grade-separated, so they don't need to be
separate ways - one way for each section of the road, with appropriate
lanes:forward and lanes:backward appears to describe what's on the
ground.

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Re: [Tagging] Stolpersteine tagging scheme problem

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Aug 2018, at 02:49, Paul Allen  wrote:
> 
> See also https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:memorial%3Dstolperstein which
> says memorial=stoplerstein is preferred


should say by whom it is “preferred”, it clearly isn’t preferred by the 
mappers, only 0.5% usage. ;-)


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Re: [Tagging] Stolpersteine tagging scheme problem

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 25.08.2018 o 02:38, Martin Koppenhoefer pisze:
> there are a few other tags that also use the memorial:type key, e.g.
> “plate”, flood_mark

It would be good to have uniform tagging scheme and I encourage to do it.

Stolpersteine is the biggest cause for this subkey to exist and is very
local scheme, so it's a perfect starting point:

https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/3356#issuecomment-415213154

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Re: [Tagging] Stolpersteine tagging scheme problem

[Paul Allen]

On Sat, Aug 25, 2018 at 12:48 AM, Daniel Koć  wrote:

>
> We're currently discussing special rendering of memorials on OSM Carto
> and Stolpersteine looks like a problematic case, because all other types
> seem to embrace memorial=* notation, while Stolpersteine are usually
> using memorial:type=* notation.
>

See also https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:memorial%3Dstolperstein
which
says memorial=stoplerstein is preferred.  But that is probably disputed.

I did some searching pretty much at random and found
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4892971695
which has memorial=stoperstein + memorial:type=stolperstein, which is one
way of handling the
problem.


> Here is a link to German forum where I started to ask about possible
> change of this tagging:
>

The person who probably knows more about this than anyone is the mapper
with the handle lutz.  He also
controls the historic places map, so any change to tagging of these things
may affect that.  If you've not
encountered that map, this is its version of the memorial I found above:
http://gk.historic.place/historische_objekte/translate/en/index-en.html?zoom=18=52.48731=13.42274=HaHbHcSaHe=3
Click on the star to get more details.  So it would be nice if whatever you
decide
doesn't break that.  Have a word with lutz - he's a nice guy.

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Re: [Tagging] Stolpersteine tagging scheme problem

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 25. Aug 2018, at 01:48, Daniel Koć  wrote:
> 
> Stolpersteine looks like a problematic case, because all other types
> seem to embrace memorial=* notation, while Stolpersteine are usually
> using memorial:type=* notation.


there are a few other tags that also use the memorial:type key, e.g.
“plate”, flood_mark

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag Summer/Winter admin_centres (in Indian states)?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Aug 2018, at 18:13, egil  wrote:
> 
> JOSM complains if I put more than 1 admin_centre in a boundary relation.


Here is also a province with multiple admin centres 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/2203582

Josm validator (or any validator) is ok, but doesn’t know about exceptions and 
edge cases.

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[Tagging] Slow vehicle turnouts

[Dave Swarthout]

I've been trying to decide tagging for slow-vehicle turnouts consisting of
a lane added to the right side (in the U.S.) of the road so that slow
moving vehicles can pull aside to allow following vehicles to pass. The
best I can come up with is the tag highway=passing_place but strangely it
applies only to nodes. I'm looking for examples from the real world similar
to the one in this JOSM screenshot. I've selected both the passing lanes to
color them red so you can see them.

I had been using a variable number of lanes to describe the situation but
these two passing_places are offset making using the lanes tags cumbersome
to apply, 4 separate pieces, lanes going in different directions, oneway
sections, etc. According to the Wiki, the passing_place tag is to be used
only on nodes. (
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:highway%3Dpassing_place) Why this
should be so, I do not understand.

https://www.dropbox.com/s/p4g4t7mk6e4161l/passing_place.jpg?dl=0

What alternatives do I have?

AlaskaDave

-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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[Tagging] Stolpersteine tagging scheme problem

[Daniel Koć]

Hi,

We're currently discussing special rendering of memorials on OSM Carto
and Stolpersteine looks like a problematic case, because all other types
seem to embrace memorial=* notation, while Stolpersteine are usually
using memorial:type=* notation.

Here is a link to German forum where I started to ask about possible
change of this tagging:

https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=63458

-- 
"My method is uncertain/ It's a mess but it's working" [F. Apple]



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Evacuation Routes

[Warin]

Err no.

Think you 'll find  is a requirement for a minimum number of votes?


On 24/08/18 23:42, Eric H. Christensen wrote:

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On August 9, 2018 11:57 AM, Eric H. Christensen  wrote:


I'm opening up my Evacuation Routes proposal[0] for voting. I think we've had 
two good sessions of discussions for ironing out the bugs and it's time to get 
this thing out the door!

[0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Evacuation_routes

This has had its two-week marinating period and I've had all positive votes 
(along with two comments).  I'm claiming victory on this and will begin 
updating wiki pages later this afternoon.

I'm planning on sending a message out on the talk-us list to better announce 
this new feature.  Are there any other lists that may benefit from getting the 
word on this so we can go ahead and get these routes mapped?

Thanks,
Eric




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Re: [Tagging] nobrand

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Fri, 24 Aug 2018 at 18:29, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> > On 24. Aug 2018, at 09:57, Cascafico Giovanni 
> wrote:
> >
> > IMHO all records tagged brand="Pompe Bianche" don't have well-known name
> nor well-known operator.
>
> well known by whom? If there is a sign I would think it is sufficient, and
> I still have to find a petrol station without a sign
>
> > Maybe I misunderstand fuzzy terms like "well-known", but I don't think
> "MG Gas S.R.L." is part of this category
>
> seems to be an operator
>

I'll agree with Martin - nearby we have a service station "Brian's Auto
Centre" - it is a one-off, independent service station, but it's probably
also the biggest service station in this city of 60 people!

They would be very upset (& so would I, seeing I mapped them!) if they were
renamed "No Name" (or "Pompe Bianche"?)

If there is any form of name out the front, then that name should be
mapped, regardless of whether or not anybody thinks it's "well known" or
not, because to the locals in that town, it *is* well known.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] delivery areas?

[Greg Troxel]

seirra  writes:

> I was thinking more to the tune of specific things like charity shops
> or smaller stores where it may not be standard

I think this doesn't belong in the OSM database.

If you could get shops to publish an API endpoint with a geojson of
their delivery area, we could add that URL, but putting in areas is
going to make editing painful and the likelihood of it being accurate
and usable seems very low compared to the pain.


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Re: [Tagging] ATMs and cashback

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 8:48 PM, seirra  wrote:

> as an example, say a cash machine dispenses £10 and £20 notes... you can't
> guarantee you'll get 20s can you?
>

You can't guarantee you'll get 10s, either.  It could run out of 20s
first.  It could run out of 10s first.  It could be out of
both.

> but what you do know, is you can get any multiple of 10.
>
Wrong.  You know you can get a multiple of 20.  If you ask for 40 you might
get a 20 and two 10s, two 20s or four
10s.  Or it may be empty.  So you're guaranteed to get a multiple of 20
(the multiplier might be zero).  You can't be
sure you can get a multiple of 10.

What you can be absolutely certain of, if the machine is capable of
dispensing only 10s and 20s, is that you won't
ever get a multiple of 5.  And that can be important in some
circumstances.  When you need cash and have less
in your bank account than the minimum denomination the machine will
dispense, that is a problem.  The other
way around, if I have enough in my bank account I don't care much if I get
four 5s or two 10s or one 20 (well, the
20s might be a problem in some shops).

OTOH, I still feel it's probably too ephemeral to map.  Useful as it might
be theoretically, I don't think it would be kept
currentenough to be useful in practise.

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Re: [Tagging] ATMs and cashback

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2018-08-24 at 19:41 +0100, Paul Allen wrote:
> On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 6:38 PM, seirra 
> wrote:
> >   
> > 
> >   
> >   
> > i would imagine it would be better having some data over none
> >   though?
> > 
> 
> Incomplete data is better than no data.  Incorrect data is worse than
> no data.  The problem with this is that
> incomplete (or even complete) data can become incorrect over time.
> 
> OTOH, we already map other things that are relatively ephemeral. 
> Opening hours can change.  
> Hygiene certificate ratings can go up or down. 
That is why we don't map the actual rating, only the id.


> ATM denominations would be great if there is an effort to keep it up
> to date.  Maybe suggest that mappers only tag
> it (with whatever tag we decide upon, if we decide to do it, and if
> ever we can decide on a tagging scheme) if they
> use that particular ATM at least monthly.  Everyone will ignore the
> suggestion, of course, and use the tag on ATMs
> they've used only once and will never use again.
> 
> Maybe I'm just worrying because I can remember the days when ATMs
> dispensed £1/£5, then went to £5/£10 and
> are now (mostly) £10/£20.  Inflation is still present and bank
> branches keep closing, so there's more demand for
> ATMs.  Which means they'll empty faster, which means we may see
> £20/£50 soon.
Hopefully not £50 notes for some time yet, they are just about
impossible to spend as few places will accept them. £20 can still be
awkward to spend.

Surprises me that in the eurozone I often get €50 notes and nowhere
bats an eyelid.

> In the end, though, if enough people want do to it they'll do it, so
> all we can do here is try to come up with a
> sensible way of tagging it then document it.
> 
> We already have currency:XXX=yes/no (a proposal but the iD editor has
> supported it for a while).  So maybe something like
> currency:denomination:GBP=10;20.  Then if there's a locality with two
> common currencies where an ATM might dispense
> one, or the other, or both, we can use
> currency:denomination:GBP=10;20 + currency:denomination:EUR=5;10 (a
> situation we're unlikely to see in the UK, but it's just an
> example).  There's probably a better way of doing it, and
> people will be along shortly to argue about it. :)
The local Barclays dishes out £5 notes, a bit of a pain as you get lots
of them and have to be careful to separate them. But that is closing
soon.

I have never had £5 notes from the Barclays in Shrewsbury.

Banks (and with them ATMs) are currently one of the most volatile
amenities which we need to keep on top of to prevent the map becoming
outdated. That is a big enough job for mappers without worrying about
what notes it dispenses. 

Phil (trigpoint)


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Re: [Tagging] ATMs and cashback

[seirra]

as an example, say a cash machine dispenses £10 and £20 notes... you 
can't guarantee you'll get 20s can you? but what you do know, is you can 
get any multiple of 10. so maybe the standard notation could be that you 
put currency, the currency code, then the smallest amount you can get? 
as the smallest amount is usually meant to be able to make up any larger 
amount theoretically that should be enough. (for example, 5 would 
declare you can get anything that is a multiple of 5, 10 would declare 
anything that is a multiple of 10). so using that idea you could put 
currency:GBP=5, and that would declare it lets you get multiples of 5, 
but if you're unsure you can put currency:GBP=yes. i guess you could 
also put currency:GBP=5;10;20. there are no other cases of numerical 
uses for the currency tag, so it seems like an okay way to do it



On 08/24/18 19:41, Paul Allen wrote:


On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 6:38 PM, seirra > wrote:


i would imagine it would be better having some data over none though?


Incomplete data is better than no data.  Incorrect data is worse than 
no data.  The problem with this is that

incomplete (or even complete) data can become incorrect over time.

OTOH, we already map other things that are relatively ephemeral.  
Opening hours can change.  Hygiene certificate
ratings can go up or down.  Businesses go bankrupt. Etc.  There's a 
place near me that was a shop, then a
fast food outlet called "Porky Pies", then an Indian restaurant, 
within the last month it became a fast food outlet
called Deegee's.  That's all over the span of about 5 years.  It's 
inconsiderate of them to force me to keep updating

the map.

ATM denominations would be great if there is an effort to keep it up 
to date.  Maybe suggest that mappers only tag
it (with whatever tag we decide upon, if we decide to do it, and if 
ever we can decide on a tagging scheme) if they
use that particular ATM at least monthly.  Everyone will ignore the 
suggestion, of course, and use the tag on ATMs

they've used only once and will never use again.

Maybe I'm just worrying because I can remember the days when ATMs 
dispensed £1/£5, then went to £5/£10 and
are now (mostly) £10/£20.  Inflation is still present and bank 
branches keep closing, so there's more demand for
ATMs.  Which means they'll empty faster, which means we may see 
£20/£50 soon.


In the end, though, if enough people want do to it they'll do it, so 
all we can do here is try to come up with a

sensible way of tagging it then document it.

We already have currency:XXX=yes/no (a proposal but the iD editor has 
supported it for a while).  So maybe something like 
currency:denomination:GBP=10;20.  Then if there's a locality with two 
common currencies where an ATM might dispense
one, or the other, or both, we can use currency:denomination:GBP=10;20 
+ currency:denomination:EUR=5;10 (a
situation we're unlikely to see in the UK, but it's just an example).  
There's probably a better way of doing it, and

people will be along shortly to argue about it. :)

--
Paul



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Re: [Tagging] ATMs and cashback

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 6:38 PM, seirra  wrote:

> i would imagine it would be better having some data over none though?
>

Incomplete data is better than no data.  Incorrect data is worse than no
data.  The problem with this is that
incomplete (or even complete) data can become incorrect over time.

OTOH, we already map other things that are relatively ephemeral.  Opening
hours can change.  Hygiene certificate
ratings can go up or down.  Businesses go bankrupt.  Etc.  There's a place
near me that was a shop, then a
fast food outlet called "Porky Pies", then an Indian restaurant, within the
last month it became a fast food outlet
called Deegee's.  That's all over the span of about 5 years.  It's
inconsiderate of them to force me to keep updating
the map.

ATM denominations would be great if there is an effort to keep it up to
date.  Maybe suggest that mappers only tag
it (with whatever tag we decide upon, if we decide to do it, and if ever we
can decide on a tagging scheme) if they
use that particular ATM at least monthly.  Everyone will ignore the
suggestion, of course, and use the tag on ATMs
they've used only once and will never use again.

Maybe I'm just worrying because I can remember the days when ATMs dispensed
£1/£5, then went to £5/£10 and
are now (mostly) £10/£20.  Inflation is still present and bank branches
keep closing, so there's more demand for
ATMs.  Which means they'll empty faster, which means we may see £20/£50
soon.

In the end, though, if enough people want do to it they'll do it, so all we
can do here is try to come up with a
sensible way of tagging it then document it.

We already have currency:XXX=yes/no (a proposal but the iD editor has
supported it for a while).  So maybe something like
currency:denomination:GBP=10;20.  Then if there's a locality with two
common currencies where an ATM might dispense
one, or the other, or both, we can use currency:denomination:GBP=10;20 +
currency:denomination:EUR=5;10 (a
situation we're unlikely to see in the UK, but it's just an example).
There's probably a better way of doing it, and
people will be along shortly to argue about it. :)

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] ATMs and cashback

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 08/24/2018 05:35 AM, seirra wrote:
> Is there a way to put what currency denomination they output? for
> example: whilst every cash machine here should theoretically output
> £20/£10 notes, there are a growing number that output £5 notes
I'm not sure this is something we should try to keep up to date in the
OSM database proper. Maybe as an overlay on top of OSM data, but not in
OSM's own database.

Over here in the US every ATM I have ever used in the last 10 years or
so only dispenses $20 bills. For a while (at least) Capital One had some
machines with $20 and $10 bills but this appears to have been phased
out. Very early in the ATM era (late 1980s/early 1990s) at least one
bank had machines with $20, $10, and $5 bills, but I haven't seen this
since.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: [Tagging] ATMs and cashback

[seirra]

i would imagine it would be better having some data over none though? 
the main thing that got me thinking about this really, was that if we 
got the ability to tag this out there, could we then for example 
convince link atm to use osm for their data? i figured it was best only 
contacting them after we got a consensus on tagging this. the cashback 
thing would make sense though right? that's relatively constant. For the 
ATMs do you think it would be better if we got a vote on it?



On 08/24/18 17:58, Paul Allen wrote:
On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 3:38 PM, seirra > wrote:


i can confirm this to be the case. where i work the cashback
procedure is indeed just a signature of the receipt. As far as i
know ATMs that issue £5 notes tend to for a long time, i don't
recall any here suddenly stopping.


ATMs have a finite capacity.  Which means that ATMs which serve two or 
more denominations may run out of one
denomination before the others.  So £5 notes can stop suddenly because 
they run out.  However, a lot of the ATMs in this
part of the world switched from £5/£10 to £10/£20 because inflation 
meant that average amount withdrawn had increased
to the point they needed to be refilled too frequently.  The 
£5/£10/£20 machines are rare and tend to be at banks, where

they can be refilled more quickly.

The problem with mapping denominations is not that a machine may run 
out of one denomination, that's a temporary
thing.  The problem is that a £5/£10 machine may be upgraded or 
replaced to dispense £10/£20.  Or a £10/£20 may
be changed to £20/£50.  How often that happens depends upon the rate 
of inflation in that part of the world. It's
definitely useful to know, but the information may go stale too 
quickly and be verified/remapped too infrequently.  I'm

in two minds about the utility of mapping this.

however people still often request cashback due to the fact it
saves the extra trip (and the closest ATM is difficult to
troubleshoot if it goes down


There is one shop where I specifically request cashback even though it 
has an ATM mounted in the wall outside.  My
bank has a loyalty scheme whereby the online banking system presents 
me with discounts at certain shops (as a way
of encouraging people to use the online banking).  Every time this 
shop appears I use it.  And then get 5% off my
payment for electricity top-up, phone top-up, mains water charges, gas 
bill and cashback.  I wouldn't use that shop for
any other thing as it's a convenience store and more expensive than 
the local supermarket.  But whenever I can get £50
cashback for £47.50 and cheaper gas, electricity and mains water, I 
leap at the chance.  Names intentionally
withheld because if everyone catches on that store brand will withdraw 
from the deal. :)


--
Paul



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Re: [Tagging] ATMs and cashback

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 3:38 PM, seirra  wrote:

> i can confirm this to be the case. where i work the cashback procedure is
> indeed just a signature of the receipt. As far as i know ATMs that issue £5
> notes tend to for a long time, i don't recall any here suddenly stopping.
>

ATMs have a finite capacity.  Which means that ATMs which serve two or more
denominations may run out of one
denomination before the others.  So £5 notes can stop suddenly because they
run out.  However, a lot of the ATMs in this
part of the world switched from £5/£10 to £10/£20 because inflation meant
that average amount withdrawn had increased
to the point they needed to be refilled too frequently.  The £5/£10/£20
machines are rare and tend to be at banks, where
they can be refilled more quickly.

The problem with mapping denominations is not that a machine may run out of
one denomination, that's a temporary
thing.  The problem is that a £5/£10 machine may be upgraded or replaced to
dispense £10/£20.  Or a £10/£20 may
be changed to £20/£50.  How often that happens depends upon the rate of
inflation in that part of the world.  It's
definitely useful to know, but the information may go stale too quickly and
be verified/remapped too infrequently.  I'm
in two minds about the utility of mapping this.

however people still often request cashback due to the fact it saves the
> extra trip (and the closest ATM is difficult to troubleshoot if it goes down
>

There is one shop where I specifically request cashback even though it has
an ATM mounted in the wall outside.  My
bank has a loyalty scheme whereby the online banking system presents me
with discounts at certain shops (as a way
of encouraging people to use the online banking).  Every time this shop
appears I use it.  And then get 5% off my
payment for electricity top-up, phone top-up, mains water charges, gas bill
and cashback.  I wouldn't use that shop for
any other thing as it's a convenience store and more expensive than the
local supermarket.  But whenever I can get £50
cashback for £47.50 and cheaper gas, electricity and mains water, I leap at
the chance.  Names intentionally
withheld because if everyone catches on that store brand will withdraw from
the deal. :)

-- 
Paul
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[Tagging] Time to deprecate place=region and boundary=region?

[egil]

I began looking at this after finding a boundary=region in Ladakh, India 
that caused this region admin_level=5 not to show up in nominatim or on 
the main map.


Of the tags mentioned below only place=region has a wiki-page where it 
is not marked as deprecated.


I much prefer boundary=administrative + border_type=region over 
boundary=region and place=region.


What do you think?


Stats:

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/search?q=region#values

7 362 border_type=region
3 209 place=region

And

338 boundary=region



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[Tagging] How to tag Summer/Winter admin_centres (in Indian states)?

[egil]

According to

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/States_and_union_territories_of_India

Some of the states have different summer and winter admin_centres.

JOSM complains if I put more than 1 admin_centre in a boundary relation.

See

https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1950884 (mumbai =winter only one 
with admin_centre-role)


https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/1943188 (both winter and summer 
admin_centres has the role "admin_centre" in the relation)



I'm guessing some form of seasonal-tagging would be nice to reflect the 
summer/winter moving of the admin_centre.


Is there any established way of tagging this?

Cheers

Egil


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Re: [Tagging] ATMs and cashback

[seirra]

i can confirm this to be the case. where i work the cashback procedure 
is indeed just a signature of the receipt. As far as i know ATMs that 
issue £5 notes tend to for a long time, i don't recall any here suddenly 
stopping. source on why it may be valuable information to some (note the 
small number that do): 
https://metro.co.uk/2018/05/21/why-do-so-few-cash-machines-dispense-fivers-and-where-are-they-7565615/ 
an extra way to verify for link ATMs specifically: 
https://www.link.co.uk/consumers/locator/ where i work there are three 
ATMs, however people still often request cashback due to the fact it 
saves the extra trip (and the closest ATM is difficult to troubleshoot 
if it goes down, i don't think the operator is local). so cash machines 
are verifiable by survey, or by checking official sources; cashback 
would be purely survey. ATMs can also offer phone top ups 
(vending=telephone_vouchers?) and pin change services. all of these 
should be surveyable.



On 08/24/18 14:15, Paul Allen wrote:
On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 1:44 PM, Philip Barnes > wrote:


On Fri, 2018-08-24 at 14:22 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

How is this verifiable? Do they write it on the machine what kind
of notes are contained?


Certainly not verifiable, sometimes they may give you a choice but
not always.


Some ATMs do say what notes they MAY dispense.  That was fairly common 
back when they switched from dispensing
£5 and £10 to £10 and £20.  Sure, if you go to a £10/£20 machine it 
may have run out of £10 notes.  Sure, if you go to
a £5/£10/£20 machine (they do exist) it might have run out of £5 
notes.  But most of the time you can get the lower value.
Usually the machine decides, so if you ask for £20 you may not get two 
x £10, but some machines will try to give at least
one, and (if your request is high enough) two of the lowest 
denomination.  Of course, if you really want 2 x £10 you can
make two withdrawals to foil machines that try to dispense the fewest 
notes.


Certainly it's verifiable.  Try to make a withdrawal of £5 and it will 
either tell you it doesn't dispense them or that it
has temporarily run out of them.  This information is useful to know 
if you're in a strange place, need (say) £25 cash and
have only £26 in your account.  An ATM that doesn't dispense £5 notes 
is not of use to you.  So it's verifiable and possibly
worth mapping.  The problem is, as with much information, is it's 
somewhat ephemeral.  Next week there may still be

an ATM there but it no longer dispenses £5.

Cashback is not a misleading name, it is not a cash withdrawal.
They add extra to your payment and give you the change. It is
offered to reduce the shops charges for banking cash but is
usually more trouble than it is worth as the cashier has to write
down the transaction number and you then have to sign for it.


I've had cashback from several different shops and NONE of them 
required the cashier to write down the transaction
number.  It's all done electronically these days. Sometimes, some 
shops require you to sign the shop's copy of
the receipt but that's a policy of the shop to try to minimize people 
later claiming they weren't given the cash (it doesn't
really help and the distraction is more likely to cause both parties 
to forget to hand over/receive the money).


--
Paul



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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Evacuation Routes

[Eric H. Christensen]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA256

‐‐‐ Original Message ‐‐‐
On August 9, 2018 11:57 AM, Eric H. Christensen  wrote:

> I'm opening up my Evacuation Routes proposal[0] for voting. I think we've had 
> two good sessions of discussions for ironing out the bugs and it's time to 
> get this thing out the door!
>
> [0] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Evacuation_routes

This has had its two-week marinating period and I've had all positive votes 
(along with two comments).  I'm claiming victory on this and will begin 
updating wiki pages later this afternoon.

I'm planning on sending a message out on the talk-us list to better announce 
this new feature.  Are there any other lists that may benefit from getting the 
word on this so we can go ahead and get these routes mapped?

Thanks,
Eric
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Re: [Tagging] ATMs and cashback

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, Aug 24, 2018 at 1:44 PM, Philip Barnes  wrote:

> On Fri, 2018-08-24 at 14:22 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>
> How is this verifiable? Do they write it on the machine what kind of notes
> are contained?
>
> Certainly not verifiable, sometimes they may give you a choice but not
> always.
>

Some ATMs do say what notes they MAY dispense.  That was fairly common back
when they switched from dispensing
£5 and £10 to £10 and £20.  Sure, if you go to a £10/£20 machine it may
have run out of £10 notes.  Sure, if you go to
a £5/£10/£20 machine (they do exist) it might have run out of £5 notes.
But most of the time you can get the lower value.
Usually the machine decides, so if you ask for £20 you may not get two x
£10, but some machines will try to give at least
one, and (if your request is high enough) two of the lowest denomination.
Of course, if you really want 2 x £10 you can
make two withdrawals to foil machines that try to dispense the fewest notes.

Certainly it's verifiable.  Try to make a withdrawal of £5 and it will
either tell you it doesn't dispense them or that it
has temporarily run out of them.  This information is useful to know if
you're in a strange place, need (say) £25 cash and
have only £26 in your account.  An ATM that doesn't dispense £5 notes is
not of use to you.  So it's verifiable and possibly
worth mapping.  The problem is, as with much information, is it's somewhat
ephemeral.  Next week there may still be
an ATM there but it no longer dispenses £5.

Cashback is not a misleading name, it is not a cash withdrawal. They add
> extra to your payment and give you the change. It is offered to reduce the
> shops charges for banking cash but is usually more trouble than it is worth
> as the cashier has to write down the transaction number and you then have
> to sign for it.
>

I've had cashback from several different shops and NONE of them required
the cashier to write down the transaction
number.  It's all done electronically these days.  Sometimes, some shops
require you to sign the shop's copy of
the receipt but that's a policy of the shop to try to minimize people later
claiming they weren't given the cash (it doesn't
really help and the distraction is more likely to cause both parties to
forget to hand over/receive the money).

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] ATMs and cashback

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2018-08-24 at 14:22 +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> How is this verifiable? Do they write it on the machine what kind of
> notes are contained?
> 

Certainly not verifiable, sometimes they may give you a choice but not
always.

Cashback again would be hard to verify, its only available if they have
taken enough cash and it is only available if you buy something, it is
sometimes available from self-service checkouts.

Cashback is not a misleading name, it is not a cash withdrawal. They
add extra to your payment and give you the change. It is offered to
reduce the shops charges for banking cash but is usually more trouble
than it is worth as the cashier has to write down the transaction
number and you then have to sign for it.

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Re: [Tagging] ATMs and cashback

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

How is this verifiable? Do they write it on the machine what kind of notes
are contained?

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] nobrand

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2018-08-24 11:29 GMT+02:00 Cascafico Giovanni :

> The issue is: do we really want to drop unfranchising information?
> nobrand=yes tag seems reasonable: how can it damage the quality of import?
>


You still haven't told us what it means. Which brands count and which don't?

Cheers,
Martin
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[Tagging] ATMs and cashback

[seirra]

Is there a way to put what currency denomination they output? for 
example: whilst every cash machine here should theoretically output 
£20/£10 notes, there are a growing number that output £5 notes 
(obviously allowing the user to withdraw multiples of 5 rather than just 
multiples of 10). I imagine that's useful data to include, but is there 
a consensus on how that should be tagged? there didn't seem to be 
anything on the ATM page. also some stores offer a service called 
'cashback' (misleadingly named, but essentially with your purchase you 
can withdraw money from your card, it's a similar experience to using an 
ATM except you do it at a shop checkout and it isn't done by a machine 
(excluding self checkouts)) how would that be tagged?



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Re: [Tagging] nobrand

[Cascafico Giovanni]

The issue is: do we really want to drop unfranchising information?
nobrand=yes tag seems reasonable: how can it damage the quality of import?
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Re: [Tagging] nobrand

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 24. Aug 2018, at 09:57, Cascafico Giovanni  wrote:
> 
> IMHO all records tagged brand="Pompe Bianche" don't have well-known name nor 
> well-known operator.


well known by whom? If there is a sign I would think it is sufficient, and I 
still have to find a petrol station without a sign



> Maybe I misunderstand fuzzy terms like "well-known", but I don't think "MG 
> Gas S.R.L." is part of this category


seems to be an operator



> About assigning description="Pompe Bianche", we'll face conflicts with 
> pre-existant description tags. So I would only assign nobrand=yes.


I would not assign nobrand=yes if there is something that looks like a brand, 
although it seems the least damaging compared to brand=pompe bianche and 
similar.

What is the definition for “pompa bianca” if this is not something that the 
operator states himself? All brands operating fewer than x gas stations? What 
is x? How can we verify it? Or is it all brands that don’t appear in this 
agreed upon list of petrol brands? Do you have the list?

Cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] nobrand

[Cascafico Giovanni]

Martin:

> “pompe bianche” is a meta category you will not find on the ground in
this part either, rather there will be signs with brands you never heard
about.
> I would leave brands that are already there, and would not tag
nobrand=yes because there is some kind of brand.I'm quoting to brand wiki
page [1] "brand=* allows data users to identify where a well-known brand of
goods are sold."


IMHO all records tagged brand="Pompe Bianche" don't have well-known name
nor well-known operator. Maybe I misunderstand fuzzy terms like
"well-known", but I don't think "MG Gas S.R.L." is part of this category
About assigning description="Pompe Bianche", we'll face conflicts with
pre-existant description tags. So I would only assign nobrand=yes.

Volker:
> In my part of Italy most, if not all have brand signs, but not "big"
brands. Please be careful, when importing not to overwrite those "small"
brand signs. How reliable are the import data anyway?

To generate osm candidate for import, conflation procedure has been
followed, so no tags modifications/deletions were performed in this phase.
Note that conflation output has been submitted to audit [3], hence there is
the possibility that registered users modified involved tags.
About reliability, data is spatially accurate: please refer to wiki
paragraph Import data [4]


[1]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:brand#Distinguishing_between_Brand.2C_Name.2C_Operator.2C_etc
.
[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/ItalyFuelStations
[3] http://audit.osmz.ru/project/IFS
[4]
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/ItalyFuelStations#Import_Data
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