Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - assembly_point:purpose

[John Willis]

Hmm... The active shooter discussion brought up some good things to think 
about. 


As far as I know, we are not mapping the evacuation plans of individual 
buildings with assembly_point. 

When talking about the schools, we talked about shelters and assembly_points. 

The pitch at a public school is often considered an assembly_point - not just 
for the children, but for the entire neighborhood. It is a government 
designated place for people to go during a large-scale disaster 

Perhaps thinking of those as active shooter safe rooms as "shelters" is wrong, 
and the mere evacuation point for a random private building is not something to 
include in emergency=* 

Perhaps having some evacuation_plan=* key and an accompanying relation can let 
individual buildings and complexes map areas, points, and evacuation routes on 
a micro level (like indoor mapping , ie: the fire evacuation routes and meeting 
point outside for a large hotel),  **but I don't think mapping a place 
designated for an individual building evacuation in case of fire is proper for 
=assembly_point.** They are for the *public* to gather and receive aid and 
possible rescue in a large scale disaster. They are usually designated and 
operated by the government, and mapped and signed by the government, so they 
know where to send rescue personnel. 

The only exception I can see is for tornado shelter or bomb shelter - as their 
physical existence is the "help" - and (I assume) are publically accessible 
assembly_points, even in private commercial buildings, and they blur the line 
between shelter and assembly_point. I don't know how to map those, as I am not 
very familiar with them. 

But Having a bunch of assembly_points coating a downtown area, even with 
access=private, would turn into tag pollution. The 2-3 locations (the school 
ground, the park, and the sports complex) would be lost in a sea of points on 
lawns and parking lots no one would care to be. 

If a large concrete mall near a coastline has a outside, designated, publically 
accessible stairway to the roof and signs telling people to evacuate there in 
case of tsunami, the fact that it is "privately operated" is not as important 
as it is publically accessible for *anyone* looking for Saftey. And the fact 
that any random building just happens to be tall and have stairs is not enough 
- has to publically known and publically accessible. 

Our local elementary school grounds are the designated evacuation point for our 
community in case of a failure of a nearby dam - we received flyers showing the 
hazard map and evacuation points. 

The building evacuation points do not feel like those are in the same category. 

The idea of assembly_point being publically accessible and designated for this 
purpose is the most important point. 

The narrow_definion of assembly_point seems best. 

Javbw

> On Oct 19, 2018, at 2:42 AM, bkil  wrote:
> 
> The reason is probably to both increase survival rate by taking
> everybody as far as possible from danger and to ease the work of
> firefighters by not gathering a crowd around the building in question.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Default Language Format

[Joseph Eisenberg]

By “map users” I meant database users and map renderers, sorry

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 7:59 AM Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> Map users could guess that the first language should be shown first; for
> example, if default:language=fr;nl you can show name:fr= first, then
> name:nl= , and fall back on name= if neither language-specific tags exist.
>
> In Brussels the order of names shown on signs actually alternates; one
> sign is:
>
> 
> 
>
> The next street sign shows:
>
> 
> 
>
> But the convention in OSM is to just put  the French name first.
>
> Personally, I think it is usually better to separate the two names on
> different lines, when possible, rather than using a character to separate
> them. But these detailed rendering decisions can be made by the renderer in
> a consistent way.
>
> Now if someone is mapping individual street signs or highway destination
> signs as nodes, those tags should show the text exactly as written on the
> sign, but “name=“ isn’t used in that case.
>
> Joseph
>
> On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 6:06 AM Martin Koppenhoefer <
> dieterdre...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>>
>>
>> sent from a phone
>>
>> > On 17. Oct 2018, at 06:28, Joseph Eisenberg 
>> wrote:
>> >
>> > The tag default:language=fr;nl should prompt a map renderer or database
>> user to find both name:fr and name:nl. It is up to the map renderer to
>> decide how to display the two names, if they wish.
>>
>>
>> this is a pity because it means we would have less information than with
>> the current name tag about how the name is locally expected to be
>> presented. On what basis should the renderer decide which name to put first
>> and how to separate them?
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Martin
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Default Language Format

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Map users could guess that the first language should be shown first; for
example, if default:language=fr;nl you can show name:fr= first, then
name:nl= , and fall back on name= if neither language-specific tags exist.

In Brussels the order of names shown on signs actually alternates; one sign
is:




The next street sign shows:




But the convention in OSM is to just put  the French name first.

Personally, I think it is usually better to separate the two names on
different lines, when possible, rather than using a character to separate
them. But these detailed rendering decisions can be made by the renderer in
a consistent way.

Now if someone is mapping individual street signs or highway destination
signs as nodes, those tags should show the text exactly as written on the
sign, but “name=“ isn’t used in that case.

Joseph

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 6:06 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 17. Oct 2018, at 06:28, Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
> >
> > The tag default:language=fr;nl should prompt a map renderer or database
> user to find both name:fr and name:nl. It is up to the map renderer to
> decide how to display the two names, if they wish.
>
>
> this is a pity because it means we would have less information than with
> the current name tag about how the name is locally expected to be
> presented. On what basis should the renderer decide which name to put first
> and how to separate them?
>
> Cheers,
> Martin
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Default Language Format

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Since not every feature has a name in both languages, database users should
consider =fr;nl to mean “French name, Dutch name, or both”; so it’s an
AND/OR operation.

This way there is no need to add a separate default:language tag for any
feature that have either a name:fr= tag or a name:nl= tag, or both.

I believe this should work for a large majority of named features even in a
multilingual, cosmopolitan city like Brussels.

In most places it will be much simpler.

On Fri, Oct 19, 2018 at 6:09 AM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 17. Oct 2018, at 06:28, Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
> >
> > This would certainly be a mistake. However, the default:language tag for
> Brussels would only be on the administrative boundary, not on individual
> features. Only individual features with a name in a foreign language would
> need a default:language tag.
>
>
> I would have thought all features whose name isn’t like the default. If
> the default is “fr:nl” but the name is French or Dutch but not both, you’d
> have to individually override the default name tag from the surrounding
> admin boundary.
>
>
> Cheers, Martin
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Greengrocer vs grocery vs shop=food?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 17. Oct 2018, at 15:22, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> Is WIkipedia definition
> 
> "A delicatessen or deli is a retail establishment that sells a selection of 
> unusual or 
> foreign prepared foods"
> 
> correct?
> 
> Because in that case this shop would be exact opposite. Pierogi are one of 
> the most
> traditional meal and are quite popular.


from the Italian situation I would not see this definition fit. Most deli shops 
around here (by quality, selection and price) sell Italian food. e.g. [1]
An interesting edge case is Eataly, which is kind of a deli supermarket with 
restaurants between the shelves. 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/search?query=eataly
(ignoring the restaurants inside with the same name).

Cheers, Martin 




[1] was first added as supermarket 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4370085890/history
https://www.volpetti.com/en/
admittedly they also refer to international cuisine on their website but if you 
enter the shop you’ll not notice these at first.___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Default Language Format

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 18. Oct 2018, at 19:33, bkil  wrote:
> 
> The name field can be easily read from the receipt, signs on premise,
> the menu or from the local authority's company registry.


I agree for signs and similar, but on the receipt and from the company registry 
you don’t get the name of the shop but the name of the operator. There might be 
a hint for the shop as well on the receipt as a courtesy, but it isn’t a 
requirement.


Cheers, Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Default Language Format

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 17. Oct 2018, at 06:28, Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
> 
> This would certainly be a mistake. However, the default:language tag for 
> Brussels would only be on the administrative boundary, not on individual 
> features. Only individual features with a name in a foreign language would 
> need a default:language tag.


I would have thought all features whose name isn’t like the default. If the 
default is “fr:nl” but the name is French or Dutch but not both, you’d have to 
individually override the default name tag from the surrounding admin boundary.


Cheers, Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Default Language Format

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 17. Oct 2018, at 06:28, Joseph Eisenberg  
> wrote:
> 
> The tag default:language=fr;nl should prompt a map renderer or database user 
> to find both name:fr and name:nl. It is up to the map renderer to decide how 
> to display the two names, if they wish.


this is a pity because it means we would have less information than with the 
current name tag about how the name is locally expected to be presented. On 
what basis should the renderer decide which name to put first and how to 
separate them? 

Cheers,
Martin
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] historic=memorial tagging question

[John Willis]

We need to update the wiki then, to add further description. There are plenty 
of tags we use that are uncommon or have incomplete descriptions. 

My local temple made an erected a stele as-pictured (similar to the Takasaki 
one) last year. 

I think it's orgins are ancient, but still "in use" in many parts of the world. 

Besides the comparison to a grave's headstone, I can't think of any steles I 
have seen in the US. I assume there are some - but I can't remember seeing any 
- so it  a simply not a word we are familiar with. 

Javbw

> On Oct 19, 2018, at 12:09 AM, EthnicFood IsGreat 
>  wrote:
> 
> And I doubt if many people in the US are familiar with that word.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature proposal - RFC - assembly_point:purpose

[bkil]

How do you map the following? Two buildings next to each other have
dedicated assembly points on the front yard. However the twist is that
the assembly point of the first building is in front of the second
building and vice versa.

The reason is probably to both increase survival rate by taking
everybody as far as possible from danger and to ease the work of
firefighters by not gathering a crowd around the building in question.

Is there some kind of a relation for this?

On Sun, Sep 23, 2018 at 4:48 PM John Willis  wrote:
>
> Thanks - I added a small note about the tsunami elevation in the examples.
>
> Javbw
>
> > On Sep 23, 2018, at 9:14 PM, Daniele Santini  wrote:
> >
> > Ok, I updated the existing proposal
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - Voting - Default Language Format

[bkil]

The name field can be easily read from the receipt, signs on premise,
the menu or from the local authority's company registry. For example,
based on our local registry, "KFC Gyorsétterem" is the official name
of the following venue, and I've added some  further properties as
illustration:

operator=AmRest Vendéglátó Kft.
operator:addr=Budapest, Dunavirág u. 2-6.
name=KFC Gyorsétterem
brand=KFC
branch=BÉKÉSCSABA CSABA CENTER FC
opening_hours=Sun-Thu 09:00-21:00; Fri-Sat 09:00-22:00
contact:website=https://kfc.hu/ettermeink/bekescsaba/kfc-bekescsaba-csaba-center-fc/
contact:facebook=https://www.facebook.com/KFC-B%C3%A9k%C3%A9scsaba-Csaba-Center-1789715554573518/
contact:email=k...@kfc.hu
contact:phone=+36 1 423 40 02
contact:fax=+36 1 423 40 04
ref:vatin:hu=10751563-2-44
amenity=fast_food
cuisine=burger
delivery=yes
drink_refill=yes
addr:...=...

The official name translates to "KFC fast food restaurant", although
I'm not sure if I should add it as name:en, because I see no reference
to this on the website. I haven't checked the English menu on premise,
though. Or should we using official_name=* for these cases when we've
cross referenced a registry?

On Wed, Oct 17, 2018 at 12:02 PM Mateusz Konieczny
 wrote:
>
> 17. Oct 2018 11:45 by joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com:
>
> name=McDonalds isn’t really right, it should probably just be brand=McDonalds 
> unless the specific location has a real name.
>
>
> I disagree with that. In that case that fast food has both name and brand.
>
>
> It is not a requirement for a name to be unique.
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] historic=memorial tagging question

[EthnicFood IsGreat]

Date: Thu, 18 Oct 2018 12:47:47 +0900
From: John Willis 
To: "Tag discussion, strategy and related tools"

Subject: Re: [Tagging] historic=memorial tagging question


Thanks, but marker only has seven uses - stele has about 5000.

Also- Marker, to me, would be something you would find in the ground with a 
number or a pole with a number on it, or something based around a ref number or 
value of some sort (like a mile marker).

In the US, a "historical landmark" or "marker" is usually a plaque embedded in 
a pedestal or stone, so it is memorial=plaque, with about 10,000 uses.

^___^

Javbw

True, but I was reluctant to use "stele" because, according to 
Wikipedia, the word usually refers to ancient objects of archaeological 
interest.  And I doubt if many people in the US are familiar with that word.


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

18. Oct 2018 15:01 by g...@lexort.com :


> So if we think of minor_line as encoding distribution vs transmission,
> then it makes sense.  But the idea that people that don't understand the
> power system can tell the difference doesn't really seem right to me.
>




I think about power=line as "cables on massive towers/poles visible from far 
away"

Something like 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:POL_slup_mocny_linii_750kV.JPG 





I think about powe=minor_line as "cables on small poles/tiny towers"

Something like 
https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:HEB_Maststation_16_kV.JPG 


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] historic=memorial tagging question

[Peter Elderson]

"*A stele (/ˈstiːli/
 STEE-lee
)[Note 1]
 is a stone or wooden
slab, generally taller than it is wide, erected in the ancient world
 as a monument
. Grave
 stelae were often used for funerary
 or commemorative purposes. Stelae
as slabs of stone would also be used as ancient Greek
 and Roman
 government notices or
as boundary markers  to
mark borders  or property lines
.*

*The surface of the stele usually has text, ornamentation, or both. The
ornamentation may be inscribed, carved in relief
, or painted.*

*Steles are occasionally erected as memorials to battles. For example,
along with other memorials, there are more than half-a-dozen steles erected
on the battlefield of Waterloo
 at
the locations of notable actions by participants in battle.**[1]*
"


Free standing slabs of stone with inscription, commemorative, for different
purposes. I think it applies perfectly. The stele in the OSM-wiki is a
modern variant in wood I think. I have no problem with that.

Op do 18 okt. 2018 om 15:09 schreef Janko Mihelić :

> Memorial=* tag is a bit broken at the moment. Its values can be both, what
> the memorial looks like, and what it commemorates. So the most common value
> is war_memorial, and that says what it commemorates. Almost all other
> values say what it looks like, so IMHO, we should stick with the "what it
> looks like" usage of the tag. Memorial=marker says more about what it
> commemorates, and very vaguely, so I wouldn't use this one. I read the
> stele wikipage[1] and that doesn't look right. So in my opinion, we should
> invent a new value that references freestanding stone plaques. So I have a
> few suggestions:
>
> memorial=freestanding_plaque
> memorial=freestanding_stone
> memorial=stone_plaque
> memorial=freestanding_stone_plaque
>
> or something like that..
>
> Janko Mihelić
>
> [1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stele
>
>
>
> On Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 05:49 John Willis  wrote:
>
>> Thanks, but marker only has seven uses - stele has about 5000.
>>
>> Also- Marker, to me, would be something you would find in the ground with
>> a number or a pole with a number on it, or something based around a ref
>> number or value of some sort (like a mile marker).
>>
>> In the US, a "historical landmark" or "marker" is usually a plaque
>> embedded in a pedestal or stone, so it is memorial=plaque, with about
>> 10,000 uses.
>>
>> ^___^
>>
>> Javbw
>>
>> > On Oct 18, 2018, at 4:21 AM, EthnicFood IsGreat <
>> ethnicfoodisgr...@gmail.com> wrote:
>> >
>> > memorial=marker
>>
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>


-- 
Vr gr Peter Elderson
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[marc marc]

Hello,

Le 18. 10. 18 à 15:01, Greg Troxel a écrit :
> the idea that people that don't understand the
> power system can tell the difference doesn't really seem right to me.

so how can my wife add a "this electrical cable" despite she has
no idea what it means transmission <> distribution nor his voltage ?
she chooses at random between line or minor_line with an error
rate of 50% ?
or should non-experts be forbidden to inform where a cable exist ?
François' idea of structuring information by "layer" of detail from 
basic to advanced info is full of common sense, damage too often reads 
the argument "the value is widely used and I'm able to choice the good 
tag so we keep the imperfection".

To make an analogy, when my wife sees a building, she can just put 
building=yes if she has no idea how to do it better. This makes sense
in a general but accurate way while allowing the next contributor
to add details.
when she sees a factory, she can put man_made=works even if she has
no idea what's going on there.
we don't ask her to add man_made=minor_works or major_works or 
strategic_works nor works_with_a_hight_flow_of_product, the detail
may come in subtags instead of cluttering the top-level with as much 
information as possible but different at once.

so having one top value for line and/or his voltage and/or his usage
is very ugly, cause of error and counter-productive
these are 3 very different characteristics,
some are able to encode one, 2 or 3
some limit are country-dependant.
don't request every body to be expert in power to save you from having
a sub-key to analyse according to your specific need, which is not 
necessarily everyone's.
If you need to guest that a line without any info is minor or major
or what's else, do it. but it's still a good idea to allow (=have a tag) 
when someone want to add a line without his usage nor his voltage.

Regards,
Marc
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[Greg Troxel]

François Lacombe  writes:

> Le mar. 16 oct. 2018 à 00:20, Greg Troxel  a écrit :
>
>> So I don't see how we can make "insulated" a big deal in tagging,
>> defining the top-level tag, rather than being a detail to add when
>> known.
>
> I agree with both of you Greg and Marc
> Nevertheless, this was a debate in 2013 and I was in favor to merge line,
> cable and minor_line
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_transmission_refinement#power.3Dminor_line_and_power.3Dminor_cable_replacement
>
> Due to power=cable and power=line usage in OSM, many contributors didn't
> want to mass retag power=cable.
> Then we all agreed on line/cable distinction in late 2014 or 2015.
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Power_paths_refinement#Integrated_power.3Dcable

I guess that's how it is then :-(

> Note that insulation is also a draft proposal
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Insulation_proposal

That seems really difficult to deal with.  In particular, distribution
lines around me have a coating to provide mechcanicla protection but
which is not insulation in the electrical sense.  Even people with
engineering degrees cannot reliably tell this when looking at it from
several feet away.

> I'm still opposed to minor_line since in merge several different concept in
> one value, and is only useful for rendering.

If we morph it to distribution vs transmission, and say it means that,
it seems recoverable.

>> That said, I fully support your notion of tagging voltage, so that
>> low-voltage lines can be rendered only at extreme zooms, and to
>> assume a line is low voltage (240V seems like a reasonable default
>> assumption in terms of controlling rendering) if not tagged.
>
> Great, should we open an issue on carto github to propose to lower the
> rendering of cables without voltage?

I think you should go ahead and do that.  Basically power=cable or
power=line that lacks voltage should be treated as power=minor_line
voltage=250V.

In general I think it's good to have mistagged/undertagged things
rendered less, so that people will tag them to render, rather than
having to tag to unrender.

It would be intereresting to analyze the voltage tags on minor_line.
Probably there are none > 45 kV and few above 13.8 kV ish.

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] historic=memorial tagging question

[Janko Mihelić]

Memorial=* tag is a bit broken at the moment. Its values can be both, what
the memorial looks like, and what it commemorates. So the most common value
is war_memorial, and that says what it commemorates. Almost all other
values say what it looks like, so IMHO, we should stick with the "what it
looks like" usage of the tag. Memorial=marker says more about what it
commemorates, and very vaguely, so I wouldn't use this one. I read the
stele wikipage[1] and that doesn't look right. So in my opinion, we should
invent a new value that references freestanding stone plaques. So I have a
few suggestions:

memorial=freestanding_plaque
memorial=freestanding_stone
memorial=stone_plaque
memorial=freestanding_stone_plaque

or something like that..

Janko Mihelić

[1] - https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stele



On Thu, Oct 18, 2018, 05:49 John Willis  wrote:

> Thanks, but marker only has seven uses - stele has about 5000.
>
> Also- Marker, to me, would be something you would find in the ground with
> a number or a pole with a number on it, or something based around a ref
> number or value of some sort (like a mile marker).
>
> In the US, a "historical landmark" or "marker" is usually a plaque
> embedded in a pedestal or stone, so it is memorial=plaque, with about
> 10,000 uses.
>
> ^___^
>
> Javbw
>
> > On Oct 18, 2018, at 4:21 AM, EthnicFood IsGreat <
> ethnicfoodisgr...@gmail.com> wrote:
> >
> > memorial=marker
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[Greg Troxel]

Mateusz Konieczny  writes:

> In my case I am interested in differentiating major power lines and
> minor power lines without further details.
>
> Given power=liner and power=minor_line scheme existed before I joined
> OSM and is really popular I guess that I am not alone.

I find the wiki sort of unclear, and I'm also not sure that other
countries' power systems are the same as the US.

Is it fair to say

  power=line is for transmission (among generating stations and
  substations, including to dedicated substations for industrial
  customers that would be called "transmission-connected" in the US)

  power=minor_line is for distribtion (from substations to customers)

I find 45 kV as a limit odd; in my part of the US (and I think the rest)
distribution is normally at 13.8 kV, and if I encountered 45 kV I would
expect it to be very old transmission, not distribution.  Modern
transmission here is 115 kV (plus higher, which I'm ignoring), and
there's a fair bit of 69 kV around.

So if we think of minor_line as encoding distribution vs transmission,
then it makes sense.  But the idea that people that don't understand the
power system can tell the difference doesn't really seem right to me.

so questions:

  - Does this transmission/distribution dichotomy exist in substantially
all of the world?

  - Are there really distribution voltages much higher than 13.8 kV in
use?

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[François Lacombe]

Le jeu. 18 oct. 2018 à 09:49, Martin Koppenhoefer 
a écrit :

>
> +1, if you don’t agree with the distinction you can simply treat line and
> minor_line the same and pretend they were all mapped as line.
>

Which is a workaround and not a sustainable approach.
The same was said for power=station, it has almost disapeared now since we
established more consistent tagging.

If you want to address all "basic distinctions" by merging concepts in one
signel key, then many other values will clutter power and other key here,
that's tempting but a poor idea in a long term view.

All the best

François
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Power=cable for low voltage lines?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 17. Oct 2018, at 11:39, Mateusz Konieczny  wrote:
> 
> Given power=liner and power=minor_line scheme existed before I joined OSM and 
> 
> is really popular I guess that I am not alone
> 


+1, if you don’t agree with the distinction you can simply treat line and 
minor_line the same and pretend they were all mapped as line. For many data 
consumers a basic distinction in bigger and smaller is sufficient, and the 
interest of most mappers likely doesn’t extend beyond this. It will also be 
faster for the experts to add voltage if the lines are already mapped.

There are ~800.000 line + minor line 67% of the lines have a voltage attached 
but only 30% of the minor lines. 


Cheers, Martin 

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging