Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Gerd Petermann]

Dave,
reg. a rule for mkgmap: A simple approach would be to add a rule in the
relation style so that the tag man_made=pipeline is added to all way members
of the relation which don't already have a man_made tag:
#pipelines
type=route & route=pipeline 
{
apply way {
add man_made=pipeline; 
}
}
Maybe use set instead of add to catch cases like relation 3220256 where some
long ways are tagged as man_made=cutline 
I leave it to you to find out how you can transfer the other tags like the
name of the route relation. The default style contains samples for that.

Gerd



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[Tagging] Members of route=pipeline relations

[Gerd Petermann]

Hi all, 

(Sorry if this was discussed before)
I open this thread because I recently learned that we have route=pipeline
relations. The wiki (1) seems to say that one can expect that the members of
such a relation are pipelines. On the other hand, I find relations with
members that are fences around pipeline=valve nodes or substations, in other
words, objetcs which somehow build the infrastructure of the pipeline. The
general wiki (2) about route relations says 
"For pipelines, pipeline markers, and pipeline stations."
I also noted that some use roles like pipeline or substation, some don't.

(1) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:route%3Dpipeline
(2) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:route



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Dave Swarthout]

Thanks,
I added it to my styles and promise to try it soon.

Dave

On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 4:12 PM Gerd Petermann <
gpetermann_muenc...@hotmail.com> wrote:

> Dave,
> reg. a rule for mkgmap: A simple approach would be to add a rule in the
> relation style so that the tag man_made=pipeline is added to all way
> members
> of the relation which don't already have a man_made tag:
> #pipelines
> type=route & route=pipeline
> {
> apply way {
> add man_made=pipeline;
> }
> }
> Maybe use set instead of add to catch cases like relation 3220256 where
> some
> long ways are tagged as man_made=cutline
> I leave it to you to find out how you can transfer the other tags like the
> name of the route relation. The default style contains samples for that.
>
> Gerd
>
>
>
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>
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[Jonathon Rossi]

I've been following along the few threads to better understand this topic,
however I'm still feeling that mapping complex timetables is a bit like
mapping the full menu of a cafe or restaurant, or the room options at a
hotel. These things vary whenever the service business chooses and it is
close to impossible to keep it up to date.

In Brisbane Australia, some PT timetables vary often especially with public
holidays (local, state or federal), school holidays (which differ between
schools) and especially with special events (sporting, concerts, etc).
Sometimes timetables get more trips sometimes less, it can be quite
variable throughout the year and not something that can be 100% codified
into timetable rules, and obviously not known too far in advance.

I appreciate that timetables are very useful for consumers of maps, and
understand that in some cities timetables can be reverse engineered by
being somewhat observable (I would think copying a full timetable off a
sign would classify as an import), however are we concerned that this adds
a massive burden to maintain this data in OSM and it is very likely to
always be out of date? If it is always going to be out of date will any app
developer even integrate this data into their app when they can use GTFS
feeds? The proposal refers to MAPS.ME and OsmAnd, have the developers of
either application been consulted?

Having this data embedded in the OSM tags also forces apps to reduce their
map cache duration to try to get more updated timetables.

I'm not very experienced with PT in OSM, but I'd have thought improving the
tags for mapping objects to GTFS feeds, including the GTFS endpoints and
license info as tags, and maybe then adding the ability to discover the
GTFS Realtime extension would be the way to go. I think this would give
much more power to app developers. It does overlap a little with
Transitland, but obviously OSM wouldn't be polling or hosting the feeds,
that would be up to an application developer.

Happy to hear any feedback if I've missed the point of this.

On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 2:07 AM Jo  wrote:

> Hi Leif,
>
> You made me do it! :-) I sort of stole your proposal and started creating
> a new one. It differs in rather important ways from your proposal, so I
> preferred not modifying your wiki page. I also think it's important to
> decouple the (voting for a) full timetable solution from the solution where
> tags are added to indicate interval during 'opening_hours' or a route,
> which is a lot more likely to be accepted.
>
> So here goes:
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_timetables
>
> Please let me know what you think. What I still haven't figured out yet is
> how to differ weekdays that fall in school holiday periods from "normal"
> weekdays. So work in progress.
>
> Polyglot
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[djakk djakk]

For example in Japan transit companies sells their timetable for about
1000€ ... maybe copying the timetable is forbidden but Osm can have at
least an opening hour and a frequency for a line in Japan.
An other example, the city of Accra (Ghana) : only share taxis, no transit
authority, lines are already mapped in OSM, with a travel time and a
frequency.

Julien « djakk »


Le mer. 7 nov. 2018 à 14:37, Jonathon Rossi  a écrit :

> I've been following along the few threads to better understand this topic,
> however I'm still feeling that mapping complex timetables is a bit like
> mapping the full menu of a cafe or restaurant, or the room options at a
> hotel. These things vary whenever the service business chooses and it is
> close to impossible to keep it up to date.
>
> In Brisbane Australia, some PT timetables vary often especially with
> public holidays (local, state or federal), school holidays (which differ
> between schools) and especially with special events (sporting, concerts,
> etc). Sometimes timetables get more trips sometimes less, it can be quite
> variable throughout the year and not something that can be 100% codified
> into timetable rules, and obviously not known too far in advance.
>
> I appreciate that timetables are very useful for consumers of maps, and
> understand that in some cities timetables can be reverse engineered by
> being somewhat observable (I would think copying a full timetable off a
> sign would classify as an import), however are we concerned that this adds
> a massive burden to maintain this data in OSM and it is very likely to
> always be out of date? If it is always going to be out of date will any app
> developer even integrate this data into their app when they can use GTFS
> feeds? The proposal refers to MAPS.ME and OsmAnd, have the developers of
> either application been consulted?
>
> Having this data embedded in the OSM tags also forces apps to reduce their
> map cache duration to try to get more updated timetables.
>
> I'm not very experienced with PT in OSM, but I'd have thought improving
> the tags for mapping objects to GTFS feeds, including the GTFS endpoints
> and license info as tags, and maybe then adding the ability to discover the
> GTFS Realtime extension would be the way to go. I think this would give
> much more power to app developers. It does overlap a little with
> Transitland, but obviously OSM wouldn't be polling or hosting the feeds,
> that would be up to an application developer.
>
> Happy to hear any feedback if I've missed the point of this.
>
> On Tue, Nov 6, 2018 at 2:07 AM Jo  wrote:
>
>> Hi Leif,
>>
>> You made me do it! :-) I sort of stole your proposal and started creating
>> a new one. It differs in rather important ways from your proposal, so I
>> preferred not modifying your wiki page. I also think it's important to
>> decouple the (voting for a) full timetable solution from the solution where
>> tags are added to indicate interval during 'opening_hours' or a route,
>> which is a lot more likely to be accepted.
>>
>> So here goes:
>>
>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_transport_timetables
>>
>> Please let me know what you think. What I still haven't figured out yet
>> is how to differ weekdays that fall in school holiday periods from "normal"
>> weekdays. So work in progress.
>>
>> Polyglot
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>
> --
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Kevin Kenny]

On 11/7/18 2:27 AM, Dave Swarthout wrote:
I provided two examples from the Wiki and a part of a response earlier 
in this thread from Kevin Kenny to support my argument that state that 
individual ways in a multipolygon or relation should not be tagged 
unless their characteristics require it.  If you're working with a 
route=road and the surface changes, you split the way and mark it so. 
Same with maxspeed or number of lanes. The characteristics are those 
of the way, not the entire route, and rightly belong only on the way.  
In the case of the pipeline, tags like man_made=pipeline, 
substance=oil, operator, Wikipedia and Wikidata tags, belong in the 
relation. The people who first added the pipeline to OSM did it both 
ways, probably to guarantee that it would be visible to OSM or other 
data consumers, but I don't know.



That isn''t quite what I said.

What I said is that attributes that conceptually *might* be different on 
separate ways of a relation belong on the ways. What goes on the 
relation are the things that define it as a relation.


For a multipolygon, that's everything. A multipolygon is nothing more 
nor less than an area feature with any topology more complex than a 
simple closed way. The way gets tagging only if there's stuff that 
really belongs to it; an example would be an administrative region that 
ends at the coastline.


For a route, what goes on the relation is specifically the name of the 
route (if it has one that might be separate from the names of the 
constituent ways - for example, the Erie Canalway briefly follows State 
Street), the network, the reference number, and any descriptive 
information such as operator, website, length, hours, ... The physical 
attributes (highway=*, surface=*, etc.) go on the component ways.


For a group, it's even less. The Great Lakes relation has pretty much 
just a name and the component relations for the individual lakes.


Sorry if my earlier explanation was confusing.


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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[djakk djakk]

That is something that OSM should map instead of the official timetable :)

In Paris it is almost the same case, the bus does not follow their official
timetable due to grid locks.

Julien « djakk »


Le mer. 7 nov. 2018 à 00:16, Martin Koppenhoefer  a
écrit :

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 6. Nov 2018, at 15:41, djakk djakk  wrote:
> >
> > Martin, maybe locals do know their bus stop timetable, as they always
> use the service they may memorize the schedules ... ?
>
>
> there are no timetables and the service is notoriously bad and infrequent,
> while management scandals are frequent. This weekend there will be a
> referendum about closing the public company and procurement by tender.
>
> Cheers, Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[OSMDoudou]

> including the GTFS endpoints and license info as tags, and maybe then adding the ability to discover the GTFS Realtime extension would be the way to go

+1


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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 2:15 PM OSMDoudou <
19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:

> > including the GTFS endpoints and license info as tags, and maybe then
> adding the ability to discover the GTFS Realtime extension would be the way
> to go
>
> +1
>

Although I've never used AOL, I have to say "me too."

If a transport company already uses GTFS then they're not going to want to
bother with duplicating
the same information in OpenStreetMap.  If they don't already use GTFS it's
probably because they
don't want to put in that sort of effort and nobody is forcing them to use
GTFS, so you have to rely
on mappers keeping it up to date (timetables in some places are very stable
and in other places
subject to change almost upon whim).

It's possible some companies use some method, other than GTFS, with license
conditions
that would allow it to be "screen scraped" in which case an auxiliary
database might be appropriate
and the tagging scheme that references GTFS could be expanded to include
this database.  But
I doubt it would cover more than a handful of cases and may not be worth
the effort involved.

Worst case, most routes have one or more known operators and we could have
a tag pointing to
the operator's web site (better still, the URL of the page showing
timetables, best of all the URL of
the timetable for that route alone).  Preferably a key distinct from the
current website/url keys, although
I'm open to arguments for re-using them.

And then there are copyright issues.  I can map one the path of variant of
one bus route by riding the
bus and breach nobody's copyright.  Timetables, whether taken from a
website, or a printed timetable
at a bus stop, open up copyright issues.  Who has the time to ride every
journey on every route
several times (to avoid one-off variations giving the wrong time) to figure
out what the timetable ought
to be?

Since we have many incomplete/missing/outdated bus routes it seems folly to
add this extra
level of detail in this way.  In reality it would deal with a minority of
the routes we already have
and would not be adequately maintained, resulting in stale info.  Incorrect
information is worse
than no information.

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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[djakk djakk]

 I do not agree with your last argument, it is like « do not add
residential roads before primary roads are all mapped » ;-)

GTFS can have errors (I’ve worked with Paris’ GTFS, bus stops names in caps
locks, sometimes misplaced), plus, as I said, does not reflect the reality
(there was this train from Versailles to Paris scheduled at 8am, always
suppressed for months) (or this bus line 85 from Paris to Saint-Ouen which
very often terminates at the town hall instead of the docks due to delays
due to long term tram construction - this enough regularly to be mapped).
Only a independent and crowdsourced database can handle that.

Julien « djakk »


Le mer. 7 nov. 2018 à 15:34, Paul Allen  a écrit :

> On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 2:15 PM OSMDoudou <
> 19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:
>
>> > including the GTFS endpoints and license info as tags, and maybe then
>> adding the ability to discover the GTFS Realtime extension would be the way
>> to go
>>
>> +1
>>
>
> Although I've never used AOL, I have to say "me too."
>
> If a transport company already uses GTFS then they're not going to want to
> bother with duplicating
> the same information in OpenStreetMap.  If they don't already use GTFS
> it's probably because they
> don't want to put in that sort of effort and nobody is forcing them to use
> GTFS, so you have to rely
> on mappers keeping it up to date (timetables in some places are very
> stable and in other places
> subject to change almost upon whim).
>
> It's possible some companies use some method, other than GTFS, with
> license conditions
> that would allow it to be "screen scraped" in which case an auxiliary
> database might be appropriate
> and the tagging scheme that references GTFS could be expanded to include
> this database.  But
> I doubt it would cover more than a handful of cases and may not be worth
> the effort involved.
>
> Worst case, most routes have one or more known operators and we could have
> a tag pointing to
> the operator's web site (better still, the URL of the page showing
> timetables, best of all the URL of
> the timetable for that route alone).  Preferably a key distinct from the
> current website/url keys, although
> I'm open to arguments for re-using them.
>
> And then there are copyright issues.  I can map one the path of variant of
> one bus route by riding the
> bus and breach nobody's copyright.  Timetables, whether taken from a
> website, or a printed timetable
> at a bus stop, open up copyright issues.  Who has the time to ride every
> journey on every route
> several times (to avoid one-off variations giving the wrong time) to
> figure out what the timetable ought
> to be?
>
> Since we have many incomplete/missing/outdated bus routes it seems folly
> to add this extra
> level of detail in this way.  In reality it would deal with a minority of
> the routes we already have
> and would not be adequately maintained, resulting in stale info.
> Incorrect information is worse
> than no information.
>
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[Mateusz Konieczny]

7. Nov 2018 16:15 by djakk.dj...@gmail.com :


> Only a independent and crowdsourced database can handle that. 




Competent public transport company also can do it.

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Re: [Tagging] Government Archives

[Allan Mustard]

An archive is a special government office. Not a library and not a museum.

I’ve used the National Archives in Washington, D.C., and in College Park, 
Maryland.  Government=archive is most accurate.

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 7, 2018, at 8:50 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> Just look at the key government the first thing to strike me was archive, the 
> key is meant to be used with office.
> 
> I don't think of government archives as offices... so what is in the data 
> base?
> 
> Well for Kew, UK
> building=government with amenity=public_building
> 
> There are quite a few archives with public building;
> Dublin, Ireland
> Engu, Nigeria
> New York, USA
> 
> 
> Some are just buildings;
> California, USA
> Normandy, France
> Cairo, Egypt
> Rarotonga, Cook Islands
> Abu Dhabi, UAE
> 
> 
> Some are Libraries;
> Chiang Mai, Thailand
> Adelphi, USA
> 
> 
> Some are museums;
> Tokyo, Japan
> Kabul, Afghanistan
> 
> Some are government offices;
> Zomba, Malawi
> Libreville, Gabon
> Gaborone, Botswana
> Dar es Salaam, Tanzania
> Delhi, India
> Bangkok, Thailand
> 
> 
> Would be nice to have some consistency?
> Usually at least one of these per country, some times several depending on 
> the size of the country.
> I found the above by searching for 'national archives'.
> 
> I think Kew has it best;
>  building=government with amenity=public_building
> 
> Humm that does not cover where there is one office you go to that is part of 
> a larger building having other offices.. do these exist?
> And if so .. are they really an office ... or more like a library or a 
> museum? I think a library, they are documents, very few 'artefacts'.
> 
> Thoughts?
> 
> ---
> There will be some that have 'off site storage'. These will be buildings, 
> perhaps best described as warehouses?
> So building=warehouse, access=private could be best?
> I think that is fairly clear.
> 
> ===
> PS It seems that as I hunt down one problem I come across several more 
> annoying ones ..
> though they decrease in numbers in the data base. I think I should buy some 
> blinkers and stop seeing these things!!!
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

[Allan Mustard]

I like constituency_office.  

Sent from my iPhone

> On Nov 7, 2018, at 4:44 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> I think I have firmed up on
> 
> office=government
> 
> with either
> 
> government=constituency_office
> or
> government=politicians_office
> 
> I'll start a proposal page .. I'd like a vote on which one, or if there are 
> any other ideas for a government= something else.
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

On 07.11.2018 14:35, Jonathon Rossi wrote:
> I've been following along the few threads to better understand this
> topic, however I'm still feeling that mapping complex timetables is a
> bit like mapping the full menu of a cafe or restaurant, or the room
> options at a hotel. These things vary whenever the service business
> chooses and it is close to impossible to keep it up to date.

Yes, that's why I continue to find that it is a very bad idea to try and
start mapping timetables.

At most, I would say let's map in coarse strokes how frequent a service
is (which is still something that is subject to change at the operator's
whim but maybe not as often).

Anything beyond that is madness and should not be in OSM. I just don't
want to say it every time someone enthusiastically posts in this thread,
and of course they can try it out - but as Andy Townsend said, I'd
suggest a serious trial first, and *then* attempts at standardisation,
instead of the other way round.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[djakk djakk]

Then, why OSM as they are some competent national geographic societies ? ;-)

Julien « djakk »

Le mer. 7 nov. 2018 à 16:19, Mateusz Konieczny  a
écrit :

> 7. Nov 2018 16:15 by djakk.dj...@gmail.com:
>
> Only a independent and crowdsourced database can handle that.
>
>
> Competent public transport company also can do it.
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[Mateusz Konieczny]

Mapping, for example, buildings is feasible as it is possible to map the faster 
that they change.
Doing that for timetables is not going to work.
In addition, OSM data format is optimized for mapping buildings and horrible 
for 

mapping timetables. I hope that in my mapping I will not encounter places with 

piles of relations created in an attempt to map timetables.


7. Nov 2018 16:28 by djakk.dj...@gmail.com :


> Then, why OSM as they are some competent national geographic societies ? ;-)
> Julien « djakk »
> Le mer. 7 nov. 2018 à 16:19, Mateusz Konieczny <> matkoni...@tutanota.com 
> > > a écrit :
>
>>   >> 7. Nov 2018 16:15 by >> djakk.dj...@gmail.com 
>> >> :
>>
>>
>>> Only a independent and crowdsourced database can handle that. 
>>
>>
>>
>>
>> Competent public transport company also can do it.
>>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

7. Nov 2018 08:27 by daveswarth...@gmail.com :
> I provided two examples from the Wiki and a part of a response earlier in 
> this thread from Kevin Kenny to support my argument that state that 
> individual ways in a multipolygon 




I have no idea why advice from multipolygon (that describes single area) can be 
assumed to

apply to pipeline route relation (that groups multiple ways with different 
characteristics and

some that are shared).


 

> In the case of the pipeline, tags like man_made=pipeline, substance=oil, 
> operator, Wikipedia and Wikidata tags, belong in the relation.




For the record: I strongly disagree with that invention.

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 7. Nov. 2018 um 14:58 Uhr schrieb Kevin Kenny <
kevin.b.ke...@gmail.com>:

> A multipolygon is nothing more
> nor less than an area feature with any topology more complex than a
> simple closed way.




+1,
plus in some cases even a simple closed way as only member of a
multipolygon relation makes sense: it avoids having to redraw an
overlapping same way, e.g. when you want to distinguish what is inside a
building from the building, or the area from the fence, etc.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mi., 7. Nov. 2018 um 16:40 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <
matkoni...@tutanota.com>:

> 7. Nov 2018 08:27 by daveswarth...@gmail.com:
> In the case of the pipeline, tags like man_made=pipeline, substance=oil,
> operator, Wikipedia and Wikidata tags, belong in the relation.
>
>
> For the record: I strongly disagree with that invention.
>


I also believe with the current state of things, most tags for the pipeline
should remain on the ways. I would agree for the wikipedia and wikidata
tags to be sufficient on the relation (or relations for specific parts of
it), which refer to the pipeline as a whole.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[Jo]

(started writing this several hours ago)

The way this proposal is evolving, there will be 2  versions. One that
gives an approximate idea of how much time there is between 2 buses for a
given time of day/day of week. Those can be added as tags on the route
relations.

That one should not be dismissed outright.

And another that goes into full detail, listing all the departures at the
first stop and then lists all stops, with the most common times between
stops as roles. For this we would need separate public_transport=timetable
relations.

I've been trying how that could work and I can confirm what everybody
already knew: it's a lot of work, even for lines that seem relatively
simple at first sight! :-) An incredible time sink.

It is an interesting exercise though and I found some errors in the route
relations while doing it.

One of the shortcuts I took when creating route relations is that I only
mapped the longest variations. An advantage of adding the timetables the
way I'm proposing it, is that the stop sequences of the shorter variations
now also become visible. This may make validation easier to do. When stops
are not in order anymore in a route relation, the validator can detect that.

But it's a lot of data to add and it becomes stale very quickly, plus it's
hard to verify whether it's still OK, or not, even more so than the route
relations for the buses. The only advantage is that they don't
'deteriorate' due to other people mapping. Errors are introduced in route
relations all the time because they are so 'fragile', due to ways getting
split, removed/readded to OSM, but not to the relations, etc.

Anyway, I wanted to make sure that the proposal is as good as can be, but
I'm not convinced that it's maintainable for a larger region either.
Of course, 10 years ago, I was not convinced any small group of volunteers
would be able to create a detailed map of the world.

I think, at present, it's far more important we get to a way of mapping
public transport with a single object (preferably a node next to the
highway) to represent each stop.

Polyglot
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Re: [Tagging] tagging for an office of the local representative to parliament

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Nov 7, 2018 11:22 PM, "Allan Mustard"  wrote:

I like constituency_office.


+1

FWIW, Wikidata has settled on the term "constituency" for this political
concept (aka parliamentary seat, electoral district, legislative district,
etc.): https://www.wikidata.org/wiki/Q192611
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 5:08 PM Jo  wrote:

> (started writing this several hours ago)
>
> And another that goes into full detail, listing all the departures at the
> first stop and then lists all stops, with the most common times between
> stops as roles. For this we would need separate public_transport=timetable
> relations.
>
> I've been trying how that could work and I can confirm what everybody
> already knew: it's a lot of work, even for lines that seem relatively
> simple at first sight! :-) An incredible time sink.
>

And it can go stale, very quickly.  Sure, there are places where the same
route has operated to the
same schedule since time immemorial, but there are other places where
timetables change on whim.

And it's re-inventing the wheel.  GTFS already exists.  Could we do
better?  Maybe, maybe not.  Could
we convince operators to duplicate their effort in maintaining GTFS and our
alternative?  I very much
doubt it.  Could we convince data consumers to support our format as well
as GTFS?  I very much
doubt that too.  This is not just re-inventing the wheel, it's insisting
everyone has to fit our wheel as
well as the wheel they already have.  Good luck with that.

What we can do is come up with a tag to place on a route that points at a
GTFS feed on the web.
That feed could be published by the operator or by an independent
organization.  We could perhaps
encourage mappers to generate feeds where the operator doesn't provide them
and maybe even
go so far as to run a web server hosting those feeds until such time as a
more official feed is
available.  Even offer an alternative feed that our tag points to when the
official feed is known to be
seriously incorrect.

I think we could (probably should) have a tag linking to the operator's
timetable whether or not
a GTFS feed is available.  Even the query tool of the standard map exposes
links that can be clicked
on.  That doesn't require a third-party app to make the info available to
an ordinary user.

So, an interesting exercise.  One that (perhaps) had to be tried to
determine if it was a good idea or
not.  And maybe there's room for a sloppy "once a day" or "once a week" tag
on minor routes that
will probably never get a GTFS feed.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Government Archives

[marc marc]

Le 07. 11. 18 à 04:50, Warin a écrit :
>   building=government with amenity=public_building

imhoo this one is the worst !

building value is what the building look like.
what a government building look like ? no idea...
some are retail building,
some archives are in a industrial-look building, ...

amenity=public_building is depreciated
it is better to take a more precise tag, especially due
that not all government archives aren't open to the public.

I find that office=government + government=archive is
the most appropriate among the different proposals.
a museum could be appropriate if the archives are exhibited
to allow a visit and not simply stored for consultation
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Yves]

Agreed with Martin here, I would be amazed that the name of a pipeline would 
contradict the name of one of its section being something else than a pipeline.
Dave, you missed a very important rule: Keep it simple.
On roads (routes for cars), a pretty common thing) ref=xxx can be found on ways 
in simple cases. 
Yves 

Le 7 novembre 2018 17:08:50 GMT+01:00, Martin Koppenhoefer 
 a écrit :
>Am Mi., 7. Nov. 2018 um 16:40 Uhr schrieb Mateusz Konieczny <
>matkoni...@tutanota.com>:
>
>> 7. Nov 2018 08:27 by daveswarth...@gmail.com:
>> In the case of the pipeline, tags like man_made=pipeline,
>substance=oil,
>> operator, Wikipedia and Wikidata tags, belong in the relation.
>>
>>
>> For the record: I strongly disagree with that invention.
>>
>
>
>I also believe with the current state of things, most tags for the
>pipeline
>should remain on the ways. I would agree for the wikipedia and wikidata
>tags to be sufficient on the relation (or relations for specific parts
>of
>it), which refer to the pipeline as a whole.
>
>Cheers,
>Martin
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 2:07 PM Yves  wrote:

> Agreed with Martin here, I would be amazed that the name of a pipeline
> would contradict the name of one of its section being something else than a
> pipeline.
>
>>
 I'm not super familiar with them compared to railroads, but similar naming
conventions exist.  Branches and trunks often have differing names while
being part of the same overall pipeline.
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

[SelfishSeahorse]

On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 03:45, Paul Johnson  wrote:
>
> Putting the centerline of the rails somewhere other than the middle of the 
> tracks is arguably worse, particularly for use cases that depend on this 
> (creating a train simulator, or pedestrian navigation, for example).

As far as pedestrian navigation is concerned, it depends on whether
sidewalks are mapped as separate ways or as tags on the road. In the
latter case, a pedestrian router doesn't know that there are tram
tracks on the road, but that there are tram tracks *next to* (outside)
the road.

Consider the following crossing and imagine that the northern sidewalk
of Schlossstrasse wasn't mapped as a separate way, but as sidewalk=*
on the road way:

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/721154448

When turning from the northern sidewalk of Schlossstrasse into
Mutacherstrasse, a pedestrian router would assume that one has to
cross tram tracks (which obviously isn't the case). Even for vehicles
driving on westwards on Schlossstrasse and turning into
Mutacherstrasse a router would assume that the vehicle has to cross
tram tracks (although in reality the tram tracks are located in the
middle of the road and the traffic lane further away).

Regards
Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Government Archives

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 at 05:53, marc marc  wrote:

>
> amenity=public_building is depreciated
> it is better to take a more precise tag, especially due
> that not all government archives aren't open to the public.
>

& even if the public are allowed access, it will only be to the Reading
Room / Information Desk, not to the storage area

So maybe

office=government
government=archive
access=no

for the entire building, with a additional node (perhaps library?) for the
Reading Room +  access=public, with operating hours, contact details etc?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - Tramtrack on highway

[Paul Johnson]

On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 3:51 PM SelfishSeahorse 
wrote:

> On Wed, 7 Nov 2018 at 03:45, Paul Johnson  wrote:
> >
> > Putting the centerline of the rails somewhere other than the middle of
> the tracks is arguably worse, particularly for use cases that depend on
> this (creating a train simulator, or pedestrian navigation, for example).
>
> As far as pedestrian navigation is concerned, it depends on whether
> sidewalks are mapped as separate ways or as tags on the road. In the
> latter case, a pedestrian router doesn't know that there are tram
> tracks on the road, but that there are tram tracks *next to* (outside)
> the road.
>
> Consider the following crossing and imagine that the northern sidewalk
> of Schlossstrasse wasn't mapped as a separate way, but as sidewalk=*
> on the road way:
>
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/721154448
>
> When turning from the northern sidewalk of Schlossstrasse into
> Mutacherstrasse, a pedestrian router would assume that one has to
> cross tram tracks (which obviously isn't the case). Even for vehicles
> driving on westwards on Schlossstrasse and turning into
> Mutacherstrasse a router would assume that the vehicle has to cross
> tram tracks (although in reality the tram tracks are located in the
> middle of the road and the traffic lane further away).
>

Moot point, sidewalks should be mapped as separate ways for the same
reason.
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[OSMDoudou]

> And it's re-inventing the wheel.  GTFS already exists.
> Could we do better?  Maybe, maybe not.

Indeed. If someone determines GTFS needed improvement, it’s best to work in 
that community to improve it instead of inventing another standard. This xkcd 
comic is particularly well suited for this situation: https://xkcd.com/927/.

> We could perhaps encourage mappers to generate
> feeds where the operator doesn't provide them and maybe even
> go so far as to run a web server hosting those feeds until
> such time as a more official feed is available.

It’s very much what I have in mind as well.

We should think one step further than the tagging and figure a solution for 
maintaining and hosting GTFS files in case the PT organization doesn’t publish 
one. If we can resolve the issue of hosting the files, it will encourage OSM 
contributors to think more towards contributing to a web of data and less into 
“forcing” whatever geo-related data in OSM database.

And hosting these files doesn’t need to be complex. For example, certain JOSM 
plug-in’s have their configuration hosted in the wiki: 
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Presets#JOSMwikiAvailablepresetpreferredmethod.
 So, we maybe already have the solution (with the OSM wiki, not the JOSM wiki).___
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[OSMDoudou]

Just a quick web search, but it appears there exist GTFS editors and there is 
an entire ecosystem around creating and hosting GFTS files. Here is one editor, 
for example: https://conveyal-data-tools.readthedocs.io/en/latest.___
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[OSMDoudou]

(Re-posting because I accidentally dropped talk-transit)

On Nov 8, 2018, at 00:18, OSMDoudou 
<19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:

> And it's re-inventing the wheel.  GTFS already exists.
> Could we do better?  Maybe, maybe not.

Indeed. If someone determines GTFS needed improvement, it’s best to work in 
that community to improve it instead of inventing another standard. This xkcd 
comic is particularly well suited for this situation: https://xkcd.com/927/.

> We could perhaps encourage mappers to generate
> feeds where the operator doesn't provide them and maybe even
> go so far as to run a web server hosting those feeds until
> such time as a more official feed is available.

It’s very much what I have in mind as well.

We should think one step further than the tagging and figure a solution for 
maintaining and hosting GTFS files in case the PT organization doesn’t publish 
one. If we can resolve the issue of hosting the files, it will encourage OSM 
contributors to think more towards contributing to a web of data and less into 
“forcing” whatever geo-related data in OSM database.

And hosting these files doesn’t need to be complex. For example, certain JOSM 
plug-in’s have their configuration hosted in the wiki: 
https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Presets#JOSMwikiAvailablepresetpreferredmethod.
 So, we maybe already have the solution (with the OSM wiki, not the JOSM wiki).___
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 11:20 PM OSMDoudou <
19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:

>
> We should think one step further than the tagging and figure a solution
> for maintaining and hosting GTFS files in case the PT organization doesn’t
> publish one. If we can resolve the issue of hosting the files, it will
> encourage OSM contributors to think more towards contributing to a web of
> data and less into “forcing” whatever geo-related data in OSM database.
>

Even if you can make it fit, it's not necessarily a good idea to do it.
I'm thinking of the Hoover Dustette.

And hosting these files doesn’t need to be complex. For example, certain
> JOSM plug-in’s have their configuration hosted in the wiki:
> https://josm.openstreetmap.de/wiki/Presets#JOSMwikiAvailablepresetpreferredmethod.
> So, we maybe already have the solution (with the OSM wiki, not the JOSM
> wiki).
>

Having done precisely no research into the matter whatsoever, I'm not sure
that a wiki would be the
optimal architecture for this if we ended up with many GTFS feeds that were
interrogated frequently.
The wiki architecture isn't necessarily optimized for that use-case.  But
it's probably adequate
for testing the concept.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[OSMDoudou]

(Re-posting because I accidentally dropped talk-transit)

On Nov 8, 2018, at 00:30, OSMDoudou 
<19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:

Just a quick web search, but it appears there exist GTFS editors and there is 
an entire ecosystem around creating and hosting GFTS files. Here is one editor, 
for example: https://conveyal-data-tools.readthedocs.io/en/latest.___
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[Paul Allen]

On Wed, Nov 7, 2018 at 11:31 PM OSMDoudou <
19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:

Just a quick web search, but it appears there exist GTFS editors and there
> is an entire ecosystem around creating and hosting GFTS files.
>

One thought just occurred to me.  It looks like whatever tag we come up
with will have a URL as
its value, since GTFS files seem to be (mostly) available over HTTP.  I
have local routes which are
subsidized by the County Council (almost no routes around here would be
commercially viable
without the subsidy, but it's a large, rural county so buses are needed).
Some of those routes
have more than one operator.  Each might publish its own GTFS feed for only
its own vehicles on
that route (one of the operators has done it with timetables which show
only its own buses on
a shared route).  Given that the values would be arbitrary URLs, the
semi-colon would be unsafe
to use as a separator.  So we'd have to come up with something like
gtfs:big_yellow_bus_co=*.
or route:gtfs:etc.  Same thing if we want to add URLs to the operator's
human-readable timetable.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Government Archives

[Warin]

On 08/11/18 09:05, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:



On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 at 05:53, marc marc > wrote:



amenity=public_building is depreciated
it is better to take a more precise tag, especially due
that not all government archives aren't open to the public.



The 3 I know of are public access .. at least to the 'unclassified' stuff.

These have 'off site storage' where things that cannot be kept on the 
site are stored. If requested stuff in the 'off site storage' is moved 
to the main facility. While the 'off site storage'  is not it self 
accessible the materials stored there are.
I'd classify these 'off site storage' areas as warehouses, access=no. 
But they are not the places people go to get access to stuff.


Which ones are not public access, other than these 'off site storage' 
warehouses?





& even if the public are allowed access, it will only be to the 
Reading Room / Information Desk, not to the storage area


So maybe

office=government
government=archive
access=no

for the entire building, with a additional node (perhaps library?) for 
the Reading Room +  access=public, with operating hours, contact 
details etc?


Most libraries don't have access to all areas ... will these too be 
marked access=no with a node for the 'reading room?


When you go into a retail store .. you also don't get access to all 
areas .. shall these too be marked access=no???


When you go to a police station - you don't have access to all areas ... 
access=no?


When you go to an art galley - you don't have access to all areas ... 
access=no?


And so on.


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Re: [Tagging] visa offices tags

[John Willis]

> On Nov 7, 2018, at 7:12 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> 
> 1) this is a commercial firm - not a government 
> authority/branch/department/etc
> 2) it 'assist' people to obtain a visa
> 3) it is not at an airport/seaport/boarder
> 4) the visa is obtained before travel commences.
> 5) it is not within the country where the visa is used


if they don’t issue visas, they are immigration or travel paralegals/lawyers. 
this sounds like people assisting tourists. An office assisting people trying 
to get *residence* in a country is certainly an immigration lawyer.  

This does sound like something completely different than the 
amenity=immigration I am thinking of. 

I am unsure of a tag - but simply office=visa should be out. office=travel 
assistance or visa assistance or something. 

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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[OSMDoudou]

> Even if you can make it fit, it's not necessarily a good idea to do it.
> I'm thinking of the Hoover Dustette.

Excuse my ignorance. You’re thinking to what ?

> I'm not sure that a wiki would be the optimal architecture for this if we 
> ended up with many GTFS feeds that were interrogated frequently.

Problem solved already, it seems: http://transitfeeds.com.___
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[Paul Allen]

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 12:07 AM OSMDoudou <
19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:

> > Even if you can make it fit, it's not necessarily a good idea to do it.
> > I'm thinking of the Hoover Dustette.
>
> Excuse my ignorance. You’re thinking to what ?
>

The Hoover Dustette was a cylinder vacuum cleaner.  The impeller had no
protective guard since
it was set so far inside the machine that the British Standard Finger (yes,
there is such a thing)
could not reach it and therefore it was not a danger.  Not a danger until
somebody found himself
sexually attracted to something that was warm, throbbed and sucked.  It
didn't end well for him.
Nor for the others that tried the same thing.  The excuses they came up
with for how they had their
"accident" were amusing.  Moral which applies to this thread: even if you
can make it fit, it may not
be a good idea to do so.

> I'm not sure that a wiki would be the optimal architecture for this if we
> ended up with many GTFS feeds that were interrogated frequently.
>
> Problem solved already, it seems: http://transitfeeds.com.
>

 Looks good, apart from their problem loading Google Maps.  If only there
were some other map
they could use instead. :)

I think that, unless there are serious flaws with GTFS, we should figure
out a way to tag it.  Another
problem I thought of is whether it should go on individual stops or route
relations.  Simplicity and
data integrity says on route relations.  The ability for an ordinary user
to use the query tool on the
standard map to find which buses stop at a certain stop and at what times
says on bus/train stops.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Public Transport Timetables

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Thu, 8 Nov 2018 at 10:36, Paul Allen  wrote:

>
> I think that, unless there are serious flaws with GTFS, we should figure
> out a way to tag it.  Another
> problem I thought of is whether it should go on individual stops or route
> relations.  Simplicity and
> data integrity says on route relations.  The ability for an ordinary user
> to use the query tool on the
> standard map to find which buses stop at a certain stop and at what times
> says on bus/train stops.
>

 & as with a lot of things, KISS seems to work :-)

https://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/-28.07721/153.42965 has a bus top (or
should that be a Public Transport Platform? :-))
https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/2196646878, with a simple URL
http://translink.com.au/stop/300704/gtfs/ (& yes, we have explicit
permission to link to that data!) for the current timetable (next 2
departures), together with any known, upcoming changes.

There are actually 3 routes that use that stop, with the other 2 being
school buses - if you click on the "View Full Timetable" button, you then
get
https://jp.translink.com.au/plan-your-journey/stops/300704/timetable/2018-11-08?dateRedirect=False,
which shows everything for today.

That URL tag could be easily renamed to timetable / schedule or similar.

Which page would we prefer - the current departures or the full day?

I know that not everywhere has a usable GTFS, but for those places that do,
it would appear to be a pretty simple process to make use of it! :-)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Government Archives

[Warin]

On 08/11/18 02:20, Allan Mustard wrote:

An archive is a special government office. Not a library and not a museum.


OSM says an office is a place that provides a 'service' - administrative or 
professional work is carried out - e.g. an architect, lawyer, accountant.

An archive is a place that stores old information.
Humm .. is giving me access to that information a service?

I think of an archive as more of a library than an office.

Not all libraries loan out the stuff they have, some only allow looking at it 
on the premises.
Libraries and archives store stuff so it can be found, archives have more of a 
preservation ethos, though some libraries also have that need.




I’ve used the National Archives in Washington, D.C., and in College Park, 
Maryland.  Government=archive is most accurate.

Sent from my iPhone


On Nov 7, 2018, at 8:50 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

Just look at the key government the first thing to strike me was archive, the 
key is meant to be used with office.

I don't think of government archives as offices... so what is in the data base?

Well for Kew, UK
building=government with amenity=public_building

There are quite a few archives with public building;
Dublin, Ireland
Engu, Nigeria
New York, USA


Some are just buildings;
California, USA
Normandy, France
Cairo, Egypt
Rarotonga, Cook Islands
Abu Dhabi, UAE


Some are Libraries;
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Adelphi, USA


Some are museums;
Tokyo, Japan
Kabul, Afghanistan

Some are government offices;
Zomba, Malawi
Libreville, Gabon
Gaborone, Botswana
Dar es Salaam, Tanzania
Delhi, India
Bangkok, Thailand


Would be nice to have some consistency?
Usually at least one of these per country, some times several depending on the 
size of the country.
I found the above by searching for 'national archives'.

I think Kew has it best;
  building=government with amenity=public_building

Humm that does not cover where there is one office you go to that is part of a 
larger building having other offices.. do these exist?
And if so .. are they really an office ... or more like a library or a museum? 
I think a library, they are documents, very few 'artefacts'.

Thoughts?

---
There will be some that have 'off site storage'. These will be buildings, 
perhaps best described as warehouses?
So building=warehouse, access=private could be best?
I think that is fairly clear.

===
PS It seems that as I hunt down one problem I come across several more annoying 
ones ..
though they decrease in numbers in the data base. I think I should buy some 
blinkers and stop seeing these things!!!


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Re: [Tagging] visa offices tags

[Warin]

On 08/11/18 11:05, John Willis wrote:



On Nov 7, 2018, at 7:12 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com 
> wrote:



1) this is a commercial firm - not a government 
authority/branch/department/etc

2) it 'assist' people to obtain a visa
3) it is not at an airport/seaport/boarder
4) the visa is obtained before travel commences.
5) it is not within the country where the visa is used



if they don’t issue visas, they are immigration or travel 
paralegals/lawyers. this sounds like people assisting tourists. An 
office assisting people trying to get *residence* in a country is 
certainly an immigration lawyer.


This does sound like something completely different than the 
amenity=immigration I am thinking of.


I am unsure of a tag - but simply office=visa should be out. 
office=travel assistance or visa assistance or something.



It is an office you go to. You present documents, they ask questions, 
you answer, you pay a fee,
the office fills out forms using that information provided (and they 
then send it off to an embassy/consulate)
and then some time later you get a visa back from the office (but the 
visa itself is actually from the embassy/consulate).


In the above situation, what is wrong with office=visa ? You apply to 
the office, they (usually) get you a visa.
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Dave Swarthout]

To my way of thinking, a tag in the relation implicitly applies to every
member of the relation. It's not "visible" to us mappers but it's there
nonetheless. It's my belief that tagging every way with the identical tags
present on the relation is to ensure that the object will render. If our
software isn't clever enough to understand that each way in a pipeline
route relation should actually be treated (rendered) as though it had the
tag man_made=pipeline, that's a limitation of the software doing the
interpretation. IMO, due to those limitations, people chose an easy
workaround. They applied tags they consider important to each member way.
That practice has become the de facto standard. I've done it myself.
Yesterday Gerd showed me that even mkgmap can be persuaded to render a
pipeline as such even if the ways are untagged (the original cause for this
discussion) but it involves a trick. A directive in the style sheet sets
the man_made=pipeline tag on every way in order to force it to render.
Thus, the software uses the same approach as most OSM mappers have used
over the years.

Yves advises me to keep it simple. That is exactly what I'm trying to do.
Having 280 ways all with the same tags as the top level relation of which
they are members is complicated and totally unnecessary. Keeping the tags
that apply to the entire route, be it a pipeline or a bicycle route, on the
relation and not on every way, is simple and more efficient. Database
developers avoid the sort of data replication we see on the TAPS (and many
other relations) like poison. That's because keeping all those tags
synchronized is arduous and error-prone. Those developers devised schemes
to store data in such a way that no data is duplicated.

If you can bear with me, let's take as an example a database containing a
table of names and addresses. Now we want to include their children in the
database. So we add a table containing a list of those persons' children.
That table must somehow be able to show which child has which parent. The
deceptively simple approach would be to include the parent's name with each
of the children's records. And that approach does work, for a while. But
then a parent remarries and acquires a different surname. The database
maintainer must now find each child record that contains the outdated last
name and edit it. Instead, every database uses a special field called an
index, a number, that gets assigned to each parent. Every child in the
database is linked to her parents via this ID, which never changes. Now,
when a parent's surname changes the maintainer only need to change it in
her record. Her children are still connected to her through her ID.  This
is the reasoning behind the "relational database" of which there are
countless examples. OSM "relations" (do any of you think the name
"relation" for this data structure was an accident?) are almost exactly the
same sort of thing and, I believe, serve the same purpose. The relation is
the master of all, the top level data structure for a pipeline or railroad,
what have you. It tells us that all of its members are related in some way,
sort of like the ID in the top-level table, and it also offers an elegant
way maintain the relationship between itself and its members. Adding tags
to every way is exactly the same as adding the parent's name to each
child's record. It's messy, error-prone, and unnecessary.

Another part of the problem is the Wiki that we treat as our bible.
Unfortunately, it doesn't offer us much guidance on topics like this.
Fragments about relations and multipolygons are scattered here and there,
some written fairly well, others not. OSMers aren't technical writers, and
there is no overriding authority to make sure things are written clearly
and concisely. It's written in English, which is a problem for those who
aren't native English speakers. Gerd started a second thread about pipeline
routes yesterday and provided two references to check. Reading through them
leaves me wondering just what was meant.

(1) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:route%3Dpipeline
(2) https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relation:route

Neither of those references is very specific or very clearly written. Under
the heading How to Map in reference [1] is the following:

Create a relation of the type route and add the tag route=pipeline.
You can add additional tags which are used together with man_made=pipeline.

It says "you can add additional tags which are used together with
man_made=pipeline".
Additional tags can be added where? The writer doesn't say. And the tag
man_made=pipeline. Where does that go?
I reckon it's up to you. The writer doesn't say.

Reference [2] is also, not very clearly written and certainly not
definitive in any way. In the section under Route Types the writer gives in
the Comment column as examples for route=pipeline these three:
pipelines, pipeline markers, and pipeline stations. The first one is
obvious but the second and third? What would

Re: [Tagging] visa offices tags

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 9:29 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Nov 7, 2018, at 7:12 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> 1) this is a commercial firm - not a government
> authority/branch/department/etc
> 2) it 'assist' people to obtain a visa
> 3) it is not at an airport/seaport/boarder
> 4) the visa is obtained before travel commences.
>
>
> It is an office you go to. You present documents, they ask questions, you
> answer, you pay a fee,
> the office fills out forms using that information provided (and they then
> send it off to an embassy/consulate)
> and then some time later you get a visa back from the office (but the visa
> itself is actually from the embassy/consulate).
>
> In the above situation, what is wrong with office=visa ? You apply to the
> office, they (usually) get you a visa.
>

Here, the Japanese consulate never accepts direct visa application and
instructs people to only submit visa applications through accredited travel
agencies.

On the other hand, many European consulates here contract a 3rd-party visa
processing company such as the aforementioned VFS Global to handle all visa
applications. These companies even have equipment to collect biometric data
such as photographs and fingerprints that will be forwarded to the
consulates together with the visa applications.

I would think that the first case should be tagged like other travel
agencies because visa handling is just one of their services (they also
arrange tours and purchase airline tickets). For the second case, they do
nothing else besides processing visa applications on behalf of the
contracting consulates. So they are not travel agencies. I think they
should indeed be tagged with something like office=visa or better yet
office=visa_processing so it is clearer.
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Re: [Tagging] visa offices tags

[John Willis]

Is the office full of people who you pay to help you apply? Or are they 
contracted to be the front-otfice of the agency (acceptance & distribution)?  

It seems to be the latter. 

Think of taxes. 

The office where you submit taxes, and an office where a professional helps you 
prepare the forms are two different places. 

Office=tax_preparation and office=tax are different. 


If this is some office (public or private) with an official mandate to accept 
applications and distribute visas (whether approved onsite immidately or 
approved elsewhere and mailed to the office for distribution), that does sound 
like office=visa. 

If it is some private business who you pay to help you prepare the form, and 
you mail it to the government and get your visa directly, it sounds like 
office=visa_preperation or office=immigration_lawyer. 

I am unfamiliar with the situation you described - so please choose the best 
tag that suits your needs. 

Javbw

> On Nov 8, 2018, at 11:37 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
> 
>> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 9:29 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
 On Nov 7, 2018, at 7:12 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
 1) this is a commercial firm - not a government 
 authority/branch/department/etc
 2) it 'assist' people to obtain a visa
 3) it is not at an airport/seaport/boarder
 4) the visa is obtained before travel commences.
>> 
>> It is an office you go to. You present documents, they ask questions, you 
>> answer, you pay a fee, 
>> the office fills out forms using that information provided (and they then 
>> send it off to an embassy/consulate) 
>> and then some time later you get a visa back from the office (but the visa 
>> itself is actually from the embassy/consulate). 
>> 
>> In the above situation, what is wrong with office=visa ? You apply to the 
>> office, they (usually) get you a visa. 
> 
> Here, the Japanese consulate never accepts direct visa application and 
> instructs people to only submit visa applications through accredited travel 
> agencies.
> 
> On the other hand, many European consulates here contract a 3rd-party visa 
> processing company such as the aforementioned VFS Global to handle all visa 
> applications. These companies even have equipment to collect biometric data 
> such as photographs and fingerprints that will be forwarded to the consulates 
> together with the visa applications.
> 
> I would think that the first case should be tagged like other travel agencies 
> because visa handling is just one of their services (they also arrange tours 
> and purchase airline tickets). For the second case, they do nothing else 
> besides processing visa applications on behalf of the contracting consulates. 
> So they are not travel agencies. I think they should indeed be tagged with 
> something like office=visa or better yet office=visa_processing so it is 
> clearer.
> 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Yves]

Dave,
Not that what you say doesn't make sense, cause it does.
However I just think that the wiki is not the bible (it's a wiki), secondly OSM 
is not that square as it is made to be edited by hand. 
Keep it simple here just means that mapping a way is simpler than a relation 
for most.
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag named group of named water areas?

[Dave Swarthout]

Yves,
" mapping a way is simpler than a relation for most."
I totally understand that. In fact, in the first of those references, the
opening statement is " Usually the pipeline is mapped just with simple
ways".I think that's a valid approach for short pipelines but this thing is
huge. Whoever created it used a relation for whatever reason and I think it
was a good decision. Now, however, we're faced with mapping and
understanding it. The Wiki hasn't been much help and, obviously, there is
disagreement among member of this group as to what is right and proper.

Trying to understand exactly what a relation is and how it relates to its
constituent parts was, and is, the reason for my comments to this thread.
It's been a very valuable thread for me because through it, I've learned a
lot. The video put together by Adam Franco has completely revolutionized my
mapping of complex boundaries and water bodies. this short tutorial.
 Thanks again, Adam

Cheers,
Dave

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 12:21 PM Yves  wrote:

> Dave,
> Not that what you say doesn't make sense, cause it does.
> However I just think that the wiki is not the bible (it's a wiki),
> secondly OSM is not that square as it is made to be edited by hand.
> Keep it simple here just means that mapping a way is simpler than a
> relation for most.
> Yves



-- 
Dave Swarthout
Homer, Alaska
Chiang Mai, Thailand
Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com
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Re: [Tagging] visa offices tags

[Johnparis]

I tagged one of these office=visa the other day.

https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/4374770543

The offices I'm thinking of are private companies that have government
contracts to provide services that the government itself would normally
provide. In many cases they are indistinguishable from a government office,
so the question of verifiability enters my mind.

For instance, the UK visa office in Paris has big signs outside and inside
reading "Welcome to Great Britain". I'm frankly not sure if the space is
rented by the UK or by TLS Contact, which holds the contract.

https://corp.tlscontact.com

Their staff members gather the information for your application, including
fingerprints, photos, etc., as well as your passport. They then seal this
in a clear plastic container. After it is sealed, you cannot add or remove
anything. The fee is set by the UK and paid to TLS Contact.

The dossier then goes to London, where a decision is made on your visa and
the entire dossier is returned to Paris. You pick it up next door to the
original office from someone behind bulletproof glass. (You don't learn the
nature of the decision till you look at your passport.) This is the only
way to get a UK visa in Paris. If you go to the UK Embassy or Consulate,
they will direct you to the visa office.

Is this an "office=government"? It certainly is quasi-governmental. Do they
provide visa services? Surely yes, in my mind. In fact, they are the only
place in Paris that provide visa services for the UK. If you want to get
any kind of visa -- long term (expat), tourist, transit -- that's where you
go.

So (agreeing with John Willis) I'd say office=visa for these.

John

On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 6:16 AM John Willis  wrote:

> Is the office full of people who you pay to help you apply? Or are they
> contracted to be the front-otfice of the agency (acceptance &
> distribution)?
>
> It seems to be the latter.
>
> Think of taxes.
>
> The office where you submit taxes, and an office where a professional
> helps you prepare the forms are two different places.
>
> Office=tax_preparation and office=tax are different.
>
>
> If this is some office (public or private) with an official mandate to
> accept applications and distribute visas (whether approved onsite
> immidately or approved elsewhere and mailed to the office for
> distribution), that does sound like office=visa.
>
> If it is some private business who you pay to help you prepare the form,
> and you mail it to the government and get your visa directly, it sounds
> like office=visa_preperation or office=immigration_lawyer.
>
> I am unfamiliar with the situation you described - so please choose the
> best tag that suits your needs.
>
> Javbw
>
> On Nov 8, 2018, at 11:37 AM, Eugene Alvin Villar  wrote:
>
> On Thu, Nov 8, 2018 at 9:29 AM Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> On Nov 7, 2018, at 7:12 AM, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> 1) this is a commercial firm - not a government
>> authority/branch/department/etc
>> 2) it 'assist' people to obtain a visa
>> 3) it is not at an airport/seaport/boarder
>> 4) the visa is obtained before travel commences.
>>
>>
>> It is an office you go to. You present documents, they ask questions, you
>> answer, you pay a fee,
>> the office fills out forms using that information provided (and they then
>> send it off to an embassy/consulate)
>> and then some time later you get a visa back from the office (but the
>> visa itself is actually from the embassy/consulate).
>>
>> In the above situation, what is wrong with office=visa ? You apply to the
>> office, they (usually) get you a visa.
>>
>
> Here, the Japanese consulate never accepts direct visa application and
> instructs people to only submit visa applications through accredited travel
> agencies.
>
> On the other hand, many European consulates here contract a 3rd-party visa
> processing company such as the aforementioned VFS Global to handle all visa
> applications. These companies even have equipment to collect biometric data
> such as photographs and fingerprints that will be forwarded to the
> consulates together with the visa applications.
>
> I would think that the first case should be tagged like other travel
> agencies because visa handling is just one of their services (they also
> arrange tours and purchase airline tickets). For the second case, they do
> nothing else besides processing visa applications on behalf of the
> contracting consulates. So they are not travel agencies. I think they
> should indeed be tagged with something like office=visa or better yet
> office=visa_processing so it is clearer.
>
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