Re: [Tagging] Tagging mangroves over water?

[Andrew Harvey]

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/82862980

The coastline should go to the mean high water mark, so if it's a
tidal wetland, the wetland will be seaside.

On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 at 12:30, Joseph Eisenberg
 wrote:
>
> Have you seen any areas of mangroves tagged over water? That is,
> outside of the coastline or over natural=water or waterway=riverbank
> areas?
>
> I would like to be able to render mangroves with a fill color, as with
> wetland-swamp, a similar environment. But this will case a large
> change in the appearance of the coastline if many areas have been
> tagged outside of the coastline, over the water.
>
> Generally I have been mapping mangroves with the limit of the
> trees/shrubs as the coastline, as recommended on this list a few
> months ago. This appears to be similar to how most swamps are mapped,
> even though a swamp may actually be mostly flooded.
>
> The wiki page does not clearly specify this, but it does seem to imply
> that mangroves are mapped over land, as it recommends using a
> multipolygon if there are areas of open water or "other land" within
> the mangrove - implying that mangroves are a type of "land".
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:wetland%3Dmangrove
>
> - Joseph
>
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Re: [Tagging] Renewable gas or biomethane production facilities

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Would it be a type of man_made=works? It seems similar to a petroleum
refinery or ethanol plant or petro-chemical works in function and
appearance.
On Sat, Dec 29, 2018 at 10:21 AM François Lacombe 
wrote:

> Hi all,
>
> I'm currently wondering what should be the best way to describe a place
> where biomethane is produced?
>
> Biomethane (as we use to call it in France) comes from the digestion of
> organic waste or wastewater treatment sludge. It can be consumed in
> households or industries just like standard natural gas.
> Companies or farms may be interested to produce such gas and compress it
> into the distribution network.
>
> It would be interesting to use the existing power=plant scheme, but i'm
> not sure gas can fit in power=* key.
> After compression and regulation stage, the gas is injected in existing
> distribution pipelines (man_made=pipeline in OSM).
>
> All the best
>
> François
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Re: [Tagging] Tagging mangroves over water?

[Warin]

Here is an example of mangroves over a river
Way: 49405103

P.S. the wiki says 'wetlands' can only be a closed way.
Unfortunately in some cases they have to be multipolygon relations.

On 29/12/18 12:55, Alan Mackie wrote:


On Fri, 28 Dec 2018 at 20:30, Joseph Eisenberg 
mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Have you seen any areas of mangroves tagged over water? That is,
outside of the coastline or over natural=water or waterway=riverbank
areas?

I would like to be able to render mangroves with a fill color, as with
wetland-swamp, a similar environment. But this will case a large
change in the appearance of the coastline if many areas have been
tagged outside of the coastline, over the water.

Generally I have been mapping mangroves with the limit of the
trees/shrubs as the coastline, as recommended on this list a few
months ago. This appears to be similar to how most swamps are mapped,
even though a swamp may actually be mostly flooded.

The wiki page does not clearly specify this, but it does seem to imply
that mangroves are mapped over land, as it recommends using a
multipolygon if there are areas of open water or "other land" within
the mangrove - implying that mangroves are a type of "land".
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:wetland%3Dmangrove

- Joseph

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As they are tidal and the OSM wiki doesn't even count the part of the 
beach that gets wet as beach [1] (despite the picture). I would expect 
mangrove to be (almost) entirely on the "wet" side of the coastline.


-Alan


1 : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dbeach


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Re: [Tagging] Tagging mangroves over water?

[Alan Mackie]

On Fri, 28 Dec 2018 at 20:30, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> Have you seen any areas of mangroves tagged over water? That is,
> outside of the coastline or over natural=water or waterway=riverbank
> areas?
>
> I would like to be able to render mangroves with a fill color, as with
> wetland-swamp, a similar environment. But this will case a large
> change in the appearance of the coastline if many areas have been
> tagged outside of the coastline, over the water.
>
> Generally I have been mapping mangroves with the limit of the
> trees/shrubs as the coastline, as recommended on this list a few
> months ago. This appears to be similar to how most swamps are mapped,
> even though a swamp may actually be mostly flooded.
>
> The wiki page does not clearly specify this, but it does seem to imply
> that mangroves are mapped over land, as it recommends using a
> multipolygon if there are areas of open water or "other land" within
> the mangrove - implying that mangroves are a type of "land".
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:wetland%3Dmangrove
>
> - Joseph
>
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As they are tidal and the OSM wiki doesn't even count the part of the beach
that gets wet as beach [1] (despite the picture). I would expect mangrove
to be (almost) entirely on the "wet" side of the coastline.

-Alan


1 : https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:natural%3Dbeach
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[Tagging] Tagging mangroves over water?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

Have you seen any areas of mangroves tagged over water? That is,
outside of the coastline or over natural=water or waterway=riverbank
areas?

I would like to be able to render mangroves with a fill color, as with
wetland-swamp, a similar environment. But this will case a large
change in the appearance of the coastline if many areas have been
tagged outside of the coastline, over the water.

Generally I have been mapping mangroves with the limit of the
trees/shrubs as the coastline, as recommended on this list a few
months ago. This appears to be similar to how most swamps are mapped,
even though a swamp may actually be mostly flooded.

The wiki page does not clearly specify this, but it does seem to imply
that mangroves are mapped over land, as it recommends using a
multipolygon if there are areas of open water or "other land" within
the mangrove - implying that mangroves are a type of "land".
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:wetland%3Dmangrove

- Joseph

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[Tagging] Renewable gas or biomethane production facilities

[François Lacombe]

Hi all,

I'm currently wondering what should be the best way to describe a place
where biomethane is produced?

Biomethane (as we use to call it in France) comes from the digestion of
organic waste or wastewater treatment sludge. It can be consumed in
households or industries just like standard natural gas.
Companies or farms may be interested to produce such gas and compress it
into the distribution network.

It would be interesting to use the existing power=plant scheme, but i'm not
sure gas can fit in power=* key.
After compression and regulation stage, the gas is injected in existing
distribution pipelines (man_made=pipeline in OSM).

All the best

François
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Re: [Tagging] wiki page for building=pavilion

[Colin Smale]

On 2018-12-28 22:52, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> Generally, a pavilion will only have one floor (no basement, no upper 
> floors), will usually have sleeping possibilities, will not be big. MIght 
> also be just a roof. 
> I am not completely sure about this being a requirement, but I would expect 
> it to be a central-plan building (square, polygonal or round, not a long and 
> narrow rectangle).

Martin, I don't know which dictionary you referred to or otherwise what
your frame of reference is, but I (as a Brit) do not recognise the
qualifications you mention. Many outdoor sports clubs will have a
building (or part thereof) which everyone calls "the pavilion," and I
know quite a few which are both multi-storey and/or rectangular.
Sleeping possibilities? Possibly in a medical centre? 

These days the word "pavilion" refers mainly to the use to which the
building is put (dressing rooms, refreshments etc., especially for the
participants), rather than it being an obvious architectural style. 

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Re: [Tagging] wiki page for building=pavilion

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Generally, a pavilion will only have one floor (no basement, no upper
floors), will usually have sleeping possibilities, will not be big. MIght
also be just a roof.
I am not completely sure about this being a requirement, but I would expect
it to be a central-plan building (square, polygonal or round, not a long
and narrow rectangle).

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] What do we call it? :-)

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 29 Dec 2018 at 02:37, Philip Barnes  wrote:

>
> Shop=caravan has over 100 uses, so why not?
>

Thanks Phil! - now why couldn't I find that?

I guess because it's undocumented?

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] iD news - 2.12.0 released 

[Bryan Housel]

> On Dec 27, 2018, at 7:51 PM, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> Thanks Bryan
> Separate request for each brand, or one for multiples?

either is fine!


> & what do you need - just name & what they do / type of store & speciality?

Mainly just the name and whatever tags should go with it (`shop=whatever`).


Thanks, Bryan
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Re: [Tagging] wiki page for building=pavilion

[Paul Allen]

On Fri, 28 Dec 2018 at 16:42, Hufkratzer  wrote:

> I douibt that the description of the tag building=pavilion on its wiki
> page as  "A building providing facilities for users of sports grounds"
> is correct.


It is correct.  For small values of correct.

There are many meanings of "pavilion" but in the UK (remember, OSM uses
British English)
"pavilion", without qualification or context, would most probably bring to
mind a sports pavilion
of some sort.  More specifically, a cricket pavilion.  The wikipedia
article mentions sports
pavilions and cricket pavilions.

Firstly, the usage in the wiki isn't incorrect.

Secondly, building=pavilion has mostly been used for sports pavilions, so
it's too late to
redefine it.  All that could be done is deprecate it and offer
sports_pavilion as well as other
types of pavilions as alternatives.  Good luck with that.

Thirdly, in the sense you want to use it, almost anything could qualify.  A
garage.  A garden shed.
A dog kennel.

Best to let sleeping dogs lie in their pavilions.

-- 
Paul
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[Tagging] wiki page for building=pavilion

[Hufkratzer]

I douibt that the description of the tag building=pavilion on its wiki 
page as  "A building providing facilities for users of sports grounds" 
is correct. The creator of this wiki page didn't respond to a question 
in this regard on the discussion page. Therefore and since I don't have 
experience with this tag I am asking here if the wiki page is correct. I 
suspect the description would better be some more general description 
like in wikipedia, something like "A subsidiary building that is either 
positioned separately or as an attachment to a main building. Often its 
function makes it an object of pleasure.". But maybe in OSM the meaning 
of "pavilion" is different than normal; the tag is used 4k times. What 
do you think?


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Re: [Tagging] What do we call it? :-)

[Philip Barnes]

On Fri, 2018-12-28 at 16:36 +1000, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> 
> & yards dedicated to caravan sales? I can find shop=car  
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop=car, which says it's a
> place that sells cars, buses or trucks. Perhaps shop=caravan?
> 

Shop=caravan has over 100 uses, so why not?

Phil (trigpoint)
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Fr., 28. Dez. 2018 um 12:26 Uhr schrieb Eugene Podshivalov <
yauge...@gmail.com>:

> Let me give you some more examples.
>
> 1. place=locality is defiend as "A named place that has no population".
> In Belarus/Russia there are three categories of objectes which match this
> definition:
> - an abandoned settlement
> - a named natural place
> - a named spot within a settlement
>


agreed, place=locality is about a named place, and is so generic, it can
mean a whole lot of different things. Sooner or later someone might come up
with a proposal to subtag these, or we might have invented in the meantime
more specific tags for natural objects and other things, so that people
don't tag them as locality any more.




> The common name of the first two cases is "урочище" and we usually add
> this common name to the place proper name when displaying it on a map.
> As mentioned mentioned in my previous posts, in Russian language we have
> clear distinction between common and proper names, e.g. "hotel" in "Hotel
> Maria" is a common name and depending on the context we can skip it and say
> just "Maria". The same thing applies to the localities. We put just the
> proper name into the "name" filed and need to put the common name "урочище"
> into some other field if it is applicable to that kind of locality.
> Currently we are putting that common name into "name:prefix" field.
>


just keep doing it ;-)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Can OSM become a geospacial database?

[Eugene Podshivalov]

Let me give you some more examples.

1. place=locality is defiend as "A named place that has no population".
In Belarus/Russia there are three categories of objectes which match this
definition:
- an abandoned settlement
- a named natural place
- a named spot within a settlement
The common name of the first two cases is "урочище" and we usually add this
common name to the place proper name when displaying it on a map.
As mentioned mentioned in my previous posts, in Russian language we have
clear distinction between common and proper names, e.g. "hotel" in "Hotel
Maria" is a common name and depending on the context we can skip it and say
just "Maria". The same thing applies to the localities. We put just the
proper name into the "name" filed and need to put the common name "урочище"
into some other field if it is applicable to that kind of locality.
Currently we are putting that common name into "name:prefix" field.

2. In Russian we usually do not display "river" next to the river proper
name, e.g. compare name:en="river Dniper" to name:ru="Dniper" but we do
display "stream" next to stream proper names in order to distinguish them
from rivers.
waterway=stream is defind as "A naturally-formed waterway that is too
narrow to be classed as a river. An active, able-bodied person should be
able to jump over it if trees along it aren't too thick." In other worlds
any natural narrow waterway should be tagged as "steam". But in
Belarus/Russial we have some very small waterways which are called rivers.
So we tag them as "waterway=stream" but need to put the common name "река"
(en: "river") into some other tag in order to be able to understand that
that is actually a river and not a steam.

3. I've also mentioned in my previous posts the case with settlements.
In OSM there are 5 categories of a settlement places
(city/town/village/hamlet/isolated_dwelling) but in Belarus we have 7 ones.
Our real settlement categoreis are widely used e.g. in addresses and differ
from the official classification which is put into the "official_status"
tag. So currently we tag our settlements as place=* according to OSM's
definition and again use the "name:prefix" tag for the local common names.

Do you think that "name:prefix" tag is a good place for a common name which
is unwated in the "name" tag but is required to distinguish local
categories which cannot be precisely matched to the available OSM tags?

Best regards,
Eugene

пн, 10 дек. 2018 г. в 05:03, Michael Patrick :

> Can OSM become a geospatial database?
>>
>>  It currently fits almost any definition of 'GeoSpatial' database. Even
> if you ignore any intrinsic properties you might select to define
> 'GeoSpatial' database, extrinsic properties would define it as such, for
> example the UN-HCR, the U.S. National Geospatial Agency, The U.S. National
> Park Service, and probably thousands of others use it to perform C.R.U.D.
> 
> operations on a continuous basis.
>
> That being said, from a software development perspective, it perhaps more
> resembles a set of loosely federated database system
> .
> So the technical approaches are not as straightforward as an ordinary
> database, one probably should treat it as a data lake
>  or a nascent data warehouse
>   - if one were
> unkind, sometimes it can seem like a data swamp
> . In practice, this means a
> chain of ETL 
> operations, rather than a single straight forward database query. And what
> makes this even weirder is that, in some ways, OSM is a hybrid of a
> relational  and a graph
> 
> database.
>
>> Right now OSM is a collection of dots and lines with some generic tags for
>> rendering them on a map. They do compile into nice maps but does it really
>> work when it comes to searching for objects of real life categories? ...
>>
>> Superficially, that seems the case, but only because of expectations.
> expanding the perspective, IMHO, it is actually fairly robust and
> sophisticated considering what it is required to do. It actually permits
> use cases which would be intolerable for mundane systems.
>
>> To wrap it up it is hard to impossible to get objects of some real live
>> category from OSM database in order for example to highlight them on a
>> map or to list them in search results.
>>
>> I would agree that it is hard, but not impossible. Certainly in a single
> step for the entire data space. In the 'stream' example, one has to work
> across the basic data type elements
>  of nodes, ways, and
> relations, then