Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Warin]

On 17/09/19 04:11, Paul Allen wrote:



On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 18:25, Martin Koppenhoefer 
mailto:dieterdre...@gmail.com>> wrote:



is "motorcar" a term that is common in British English?


Not much.


How do you tag the generic bus class in Britain?


Is there such a thing?  There are buses which operate to a timetable 
and anyone may board
or alight at specified stops (perhaps elsewhere at the driver's 
discretion).  There are coaches
use for day trips and coaches for long distance.  All are classed by 
the UK gov't as PSVs

(as are taxis, minibuses and stretch limos).

FWIW, the common term "bus" is already taken for buses acting as
public service vehicles,


Except "PSV" doesn't mean what you think it means in the UK.  But I'm 
happy with how OSM
uses the term bus, because that's how most people in the UK use it, 
and I think is what our

gov't calls a "registered local service."

so there must be something else for the generic vehicle class for
buses.


There must?  Why?  I can't think of it.  There may very well be one, 
in common usage,

but it doesn't spring to mind.

I am not insisting on "motorbus", but it seemed to fit with the
rest of the terms, and it didn't seem to have specific meaning,
which the currently documented "tourist_bus" obviously has.


There was a time when all buses were pulled by horses.


? Umm were they not coaches? Cobb & Co etc.
https://www.historylearningsite.co.uk/britain-1700-to-1900/transport-1750-to-1900/coaches-1750-to-1900/
1700s on.
Oh  I found horsebuses were later.. 1824... humm never heard of them 
before.



Then along came Daimler, Otto
and others and eventually there were new-fangled motorbuses.  Proudly 
called motorbuses
because they had a motor instead of being pulled by horses.  More time 
passed and
horse-drawn buses became a rarity, and what were once called 
motorbuses were simply
called buses.  Although horse-drawn buses are exceedingly rare, they 
would also fit into
the generic, as yet unnamed, category that includes buses, coaches, 
minibuses, etc.

Motorbus is pretty much an archaism.

Since a bus and coach are extremes in terms of size and weight of 
PSVs, and look
very similar from the outside, I'd be reasonably happy to accept 
access=bus as meaning
both.  I can foresee the possibility that buses are allowed but 
coaches are not, but is it
likely?  No doubt somebody will chip in with an example. Actually, I 
can think of one:
an automatic vehicle barrier that opens if it detects a bus (local 
registered service)
but not any other type of vehicle, so it would exclude coaches.  Yes, 
such a thing

exists.


Tourist coaches here deliver there passengers and then go elsewhere to 
park in the busy places.
They cannot park in a regular 'bus stop' as those get used by the 
regular passenger services.


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Re: [Tagging] oneway street with two combined foot-cycle lanes

[Andrew Davidson]

On 17/9/19 05:29, Volker Schmidt wrote:

How to tag a
oneway street with a combined foot-cycle lanes on either side with oneway
restrictions for bicycles.
To understand my description you need to look at the photo:

http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/ndVXZQlQxoTi_678lWXc9A/photo



The easiest way is:
cycleway=lane
oneway:bicycle=no

See:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:cycleway

The various different options for tagging the same thing were discussed 
in March:


https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2019-March/043894.html


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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

I guess that's the difference when your long trip is 1 hour! :-)

Thanks

Graeme


On Tue, 17 Sep 2019 at 08:59, Paul Allen  wrote:

> On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 23:51, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
> wrote:
>
>> Only knowing Australian buses / coaches, I'm not sure if this applies
>> world-wide, but a major distinction between the two here, is that a coach
>> has a toilet on board, while a bus doesn't.
>>
>
> Wow!  You have posh coaches there!
>
> More seriously, many decades ago it was rare for coaches to have a toilet
> on board, and
> stops along the way were necessary.  Toilets on coaches are far more
> common these
> days, but I expect you can find a few old coaches run by cheapskate
> operators without
> them.  The most you can be sure of here is that the seats are more
> comfortable than
> on buses and there is a luggage compartment.
>
> --
> Paul
>
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 23:51, Graeme Fitzpatrick 
wrote:

> Only knowing Australian buses / coaches, I'm not sure if this applies
> world-wide, but a major distinction between the two here, is that a coach
> has a toilet on board, while a bus doesn't.
>

Wow!  You have posh coaches there!

More seriously, many decades ago it was rare for coaches to have a toilet
on board, and
stops along the way were necessary.  Toilets on coaches are far more common
these
days, but I expect you can find a few old coaches run by cheapskate
operators without
them.  The most you can be sure of here is that the seats are more
comfortable than
on buses and there is a luggage compartment.

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

Only knowing Australian buses / coaches, I'm not sure if this applies
world-wide, but a major distinction between the two here, is that a coach
has a toilet on board, while a bus doesn't.

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Steve Doerr]

On 15/09/2019 22:45, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

I would use “motorbus” for the bus class, motorcar and motorcycle indicate 
there’s a system.


Must say 'motor bus' sounds really quaint to an English speaker. It's a 
term that belongs to the early 1900s when there were still maybe a few 
horse-drawn buses around. It just makes me think of this poem from 1914:


   What is this that roareth thus?
   Can it be a Motor Bus?
   Yes, the smell and hideous hum
   Indicat Motorem Bum!
   Implet in the Corn and High
   Terror me Motoris Bi:
   Bo Motori clamitabo
   Ne Motore caedar a Bo---
   Dative be or Ablative
   So thou only let us live:---
   Whither shall thy victims flee?
   Spare us, spare us, Motor Be!
   Thus I sang; and still anigh
   Came in hordes Motores Bi,
   Et complebat omne forum
   Copia Motorum Borum.
   How shall wretches live like us
   Cincti Bis Motoribus?
   Domine, defende nos
   Contra hos Motores Bos!

--
Steve


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[Tagging] oneway street with two combined foot-cycle lanes

[Volker Schmidt]

How to tag a
oneway street with a combined foot-cycle lanes on either side with oneway
restrictions for bicycles.
To understand my description you need to look at the photo:

http://www.mapillary.com/map/im/ndVXZQlQxoTi_678lWXc9A/photo


Thanks in advance

Volker



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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

Am Mo., 16. Sept. 2019 um 17:01 Uhr schrieb Paul Allen :

> On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 15:30, Kevin Kenny  wrote:
>
>> So, solving the original poster's problem is now out of scope?  :shrug:
>>
>
> Not entirely out of scope.  But we shouldn't let whatever he or she was
> trying to
> achieve twist our tagging into using archaisms like "motorbus" in an
> attempt to
> make up for using terms like "coach" and "tourist bus" in ways that don't
> match
> British English (or even American English) usage.
>


is "motorcar" a term that is common in British English?

How do you tag the generic bus class in Britain?

FWIW, the common term "bus" is already taken for buses acting as public
service vehicles, so there must be something else for the generic vehicle
class for buses. I am not insisting on "motorbus", but it seemed to fit
with the rest of the terms, and it didn't seem to have specific meaning,
which the currently documented "tourist_bus" obviously has.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Kevin Kenny]

On Mon, Sep 16, 2019 at 10:24 AM Paul Allen  wrote:
> Indeed.  All we can try to do is sort it all out.  To do that, we need to 
> know what we
> are talking about.  I think we can ignore whatever it was the original poster 
> intended.
> I blame Google Translate. :)

So, solving the original poster's problem is now out of scope?  :shrug:

-- 
73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin

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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Paul Allen]

On Mon, 16 Sep 2019 at 07:13, Jo  wrote:

> What about long_distance_bus, if you don't like coach? motorbus doesn't
> really convey much information. All buses we are talking about have a motor.
>

Indeed.  Also, it's not a term I've encountered very often (if at all) in
British English.


> When I saw the initial conversation in Italian, I thought the person
> asking was asking about coach buses that were transporting tourists on an
> on demand, or on group reservation basis. For such buses there are
> dedicated areas where they can load / unload people, but that's more like
> parking.
>

Having had some time to think about it, and seeing the
increasingly-diverging opinions here,
it's time to give my current thinking on this.

For me (an Englishman), a coach, in the context of buses, means a
comfortable, long-distance
bus with the capability of transporting luggage.  Coaches are used on
long-distance (several
hours of travel time) routes and for transporting people on touring
holidays ("It's Tuesday, so this
must be Rome.")  This accords with Wiktionary's definition 3 (British
English) of a coach:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/coach

For me, a tourist bus is (usually) an open-topped, double-decker bus
carrying tourists
around a single town/city (and possibly a few nearby locations).  How they
get to that
town/city is (usually) a different mode of transport.  There is somebody
(either the
driver or a guide) giving a running commentary.

Obviously, there are overlaps in that coaches taking people on holiday or
to events
are carrying tourists.  A coach driver may make an occasional announcement,
and
there may even be a guide making announcements.  But coaches are about
long-distance travel (usually with luggage) whilst tourist buses cover
short distances
and have no special provision for stowing luggage.  Tourist buses are
ordinary (not very
comfortable) buses, usually with the top cut off.  Coaches are
comfortable.  Holiday coaches
usually require you to book a ticket in advance; long-distance coaches
permit (and sometimes
require) reservations and often require you to buy a ticket from an office
rather than on the bus.
Tourist buses can sometimes be booked in advance but may permit you to
simply board at
one of their stops.

In fact, if we're talking about Flixbus, Eurolines, Greyhound, etc. I think
> highway=bus_stop is just fine. Add a tag for operator or network and it's
> obvious and clear those are not bus stops for the local bus lines.
>

Those would be long-distance coaches running to a timetable, not coaches
carrying
people on holiday to a destination or event.  For OSM purposes it's
probably OK to treat
them as buses, even though they may have only two stops (the two termini).

However, these coach holidays https://www.richardsbros.co.uk/coach-holidays/
are not buses in the above sense.  Booking is required.  Luggage is
carried.  The
pick-up point is fixed, the drop-off point(s) varies depending on the
specific
destination.  The pick-up point may or may not be an ordinary bus stop, but
usually
isn't for most operators.  These day tours
https://www.richardsbros.co.uk/day-tours/
fall into the same broad category as the coach holidays.

These are tourist buses https://edinburghtour.com/

-- 
Paul
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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 16. Sep 2019, at 08:07, Jo  wrote:
> 
> What about long_distance_bus, if you don't like coach? motorbus doesn't 
> really convey much information. All buses we are talking about have a motor.


Sorry, it may not have been clear, “motorbus” would be used as a generic term 
for the bus class as required for access restrictions, e.g. this sign: 

it wasn’t specifically for the tourist bus stop.

The difference between the boarding stop for non-public buses and a parking for 
such buses is the time you can stay, on the bus stop you may not park the 
vehicle.


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Re: [Tagging] Tourist bus stop

[Jo]

What about long_distance_bus, if you don't like coach? motorbus doesn't
really convey much information. All buses we are talking about have a
motor. The only exception I can think of is this Italian pedibus, which
isn't really a bus at all. (Accompanied children who take the same
itinerary on a daily basis on their way to school).

When I saw the initial conversation in Italian, I thought the person asking
was asking about coach buses that were transporting tourists on an on
demand, or on group reservation basis. For such buses there are dedicated
areas where they can load / unload people, but that's more like parking.

In fact, if we're talking about Flixbus, Eurolines, Greyhound, etc. I think
highway=bus_stop is just fine. Add a tag for operator or network and it's
obvious and clear those are not bus stops for the local bus lines.

Polyglot

On Sun, Sep 15, 2019 at 11:47 PM Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> > On 12. Sep 2019, at 02:44, Joseph Eisenberg 
> wrote:
> >
> > I agree that "[motor]coach=" might have been clearer, but I'm ok with
> > keeping "tourist_bus=*" since it may actually be easier to translate
> > into most languages, and "coach=*" can also be ambiguous, since it
> > used to refer to horse-drawn vehicles and passenger railway cars, so
> > "motorcoach" would have been needed. Also, some definitions of
> > "coach=" seem to be limited to larger inter-city style buses, with
> > seatbelts, individual seats instead of benches, etc.
> >
> > See also https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:coach
>
>
> I would use “motorbus” for the bus class, motorcar and motorcycle indicate
> there’s a system. The coach word seems more complicated and maybe only
> referring to some kind of buses. The term “Coach” should be avoided unless
> there are specific provisions for coaches (couldn’t find anything so far).
>
> For access restrictions for public transport buses, “public_bus” would
> have been clearer than just “bus”, but I don’t think osm is going to change
> this...
>
> For tourist_bus there might be a realistic (?) possibility to rename it to
> motorbus.
>
> Cheers Martin
>
>
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