[Tagging] Areas of bare soil (clay, silt, loam) such as badlands?

2019-10-22 Thread Michael Patrick 
Reference: Badlands , Encyclopedia of Geomorphology ,http://bit.ly/2PagW8f

> but this is rather specific and may not be well-known outside of North 
> America:

'Badlands' exist all over the world. They might have local nomenclature,
but they are specific type of landform recognized by the international
scientific community.

> But most of those could be scree or shingle, which would be more specific
... Would it be best to describe the type of soil, like natural=clay,
=silt, =earth, =pebbles, =gravel? ... Should mappers use surface=* without
another top-level tag?... Should natural=bare_earth be used in general for
clay and other bare soils?

Badlands are continuously erosional features, so you will find all of those
( and more ) in a badlands zone, often changing over a span of a couple of
meters.

> Or is natural=badlands best to describe the specific feature of an arid
area where the bare soil is exposed due to erosion?

Yes. They are defined geologically by the process, continual erosion, and
most prominently by the shape of the land: basically everything is a gully
or ridge, with fairly steep slopes between them. there might be transient
flat areas where sediments collect temporarily, but those are then cut
again by erosion. And a few flat areas where harder bedrock is exposed. At
the margins above and below the badland watershed / erosional zone are
usually more continuous land forms and slopes.

An arid climate is not necessarily a characteristic. They are are found in
all climate zones, the amount and timing of precipitation affects the
occurrence, size, and speed of growth. And they may not even be 'natural':
"... Badlands are common in areas with at least seasonal drought, in
semi-arid and arid areas, Mediterranean and dry-season tropical areas.
However, they also occur in humid
regions, for example on eroding coastal and river cliffs. Badlands may
result from natural
processes, but their extent may be accentuated by human activity. Some
badlands may be the result of human-induced soil erosion."

> ... wouldn't it be useful to add, in addition to OSM-specific tags like 
> natural=bare_rock,
natural=shingle,  natural=scree, ... a tag to reference standard land
cover classification?

+1
Wikipedia is not an authoritative source, and varies between excellent and
poor, and a lay person would find it hard to tell the difference.

>  The CLC is based on 1:100.000 scale satellite imagery, so it can't be as
specific as what OpenStreetMap users can tag with local knowledge and
aerial imagery.

The final data product is aggregated, but the original imagery is much,
much better than that - the 'mapping' ( cartographic ) scale is different
than the data model. . The classification system itself is probably still
valid a finer resolutions - past the upper level it drills down into more
specific categories like "2.4.3 Land principally occupied by agriculture,
with significant areas of natural vegetation" . Corine's classification
system is very coarse, like USGS NLCD it is meant for continental scale
changes. There are more specific standard classification systems for finer
levels of landscape details, like FAO
http://www.fao.org/3/x0596e/x0596e01f.htm#p971_94150
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Hunting stands, bird and wildlife hides

2019-10-22 Thread Philip Barnes 


On Tuesday, 22 October 2019, Mateusz Konieczny wrote:
> You may need to look at the context, or ask local people.
> 
> For example many named peaks, streams, saddles have no explicit sign - 
> you need to ask local people or base it on your own knowledge.
>
Or use out of copyright mapping.

Phil (trigpoint)

 
> 22 Oct 2019, 16:36 by i...@zverev.info:
> 
> > I understand the reasoning, but I don’t see how can I follow the “truth on 
> > the ground” principle. Are there any guidelines on choosing the correct 
> > tag? For some reason people don’t write its purpose on a side. And again, 
> > images in three of these pages are the same.
> >
> > Ilya
> >
> >
> >> On 22 Oct 2019, at 10:46, Martin Koppenhoefer <>> dieterdre...@gmail.com 
> >> >> > wrote:
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> Am Di., 22. Okt. 2019 um 09:35 Uhr schrieb Ilya Zverev <>> 
> >> i...@zverev.info >> >:
> >>
> >>> Hi folks,
> >>>
> >>> Today we were looking for a tag to mark this structure:
> >>>
> >>> http://not.textual.ru/zverik/2/5/some_hide.jpg 
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>> Searching the wiki gave out FIVE options:
> >>>
> >>> - >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dbird_hide 
> >>> 
> >>> ->>>  >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dwildlife_hide 
> >>> 
> >>> ->>>  >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dhunting_stand 
> >>> 
> >>> ->>>  >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:hunting%3Draised_hide 
> >>> 
> >>> ->>>  >>> 
> >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tower:type%3Dobservation 
> >>> 
> >>>
> >>> What’s confusing is that photos in the first three look the same, even 
> >>> with a book on birds featured on the wildlife_hide page.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >>>
> >>> I can imagine how tower:type=observation differs from the others, but 
> >>> what do you think about four others? Should we add a warning box on all 
> >>> three “_hide” tags to use amenity=hunting_stand instead? Or choose one 
> >>> “_hide” over others? Currently the wiki is very disorienting.
> >>>
> >>
> >>
> >>
> >> a hunting stand is a place where hunters are waiting for animals to shoot 
> >> them. A bird hide or wildlife hide is a place where you can observe 
> >> animals / birds.
> >>
> >> I do not recall any discussion about hunting=raised_hide and it seems to 
> >> be a duplicate or sub-group of hunting stand. The tag should probably be 
> >> discouraged as stand alone tag (in favor of hunting stand), but it could 
> >> make sense to state the subtype of hunting stand.
> >>
> >> Observation towers are similar features, but usually higher and not 
> >> specifically for watching animals. The definition says they are for "long 
> >> distance" observations, while hunting stands are for observing within 
> >> shooting range.
> >>
> >> With regard to your photo, we cannot tell which is the correct tag, 
> >> because we do not know what the purpose is.
> >>
> >> Cheers,
> >> Martin
> >> ___
> >> Tagging mailing list
> >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> >> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging 
> >> 
> >>
> 
>

-- 
Sent from my Sailfish device
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Hunting stands, bird and wildlife hides

2019-10-22 Thread Mateusz Konieczny 
You may need to look at the context, or ask local people.

For example many named peaks, streams, saddles have no explicit sign - 
you need to ask local people or base it on your own knowledge.

22 Oct 2019, 16:36 by i...@zverev.info:

> I understand the reasoning, but I don’t see how can I follow the “truth on 
> the ground” principle. Are there any guidelines on choosing the correct tag? 
> For some reason people don’t write its purpose on a side. And again, images 
> in three of these pages are the same.
>
> Ilya
>
>
>> On 22 Oct 2019, at 10:46, Martin Koppenhoefer <>> dieterdre...@gmail.com 
>> >> > wrote:
>>
>>
>>
>> Am Di., 22. Okt. 2019 um 09:35 Uhr schrieb Ilya Zverev <>> i...@zverev.info 
>> >> >:
>>
>>> Hi folks,
>>>
>>> Today we were looking for a tag to mark this structure:
>>>
>>> http://not.textual.ru/zverik/2/5/some_hide.jpg 
>>> 
>>>
>>> Searching the wiki gave out FIVE options:
>>>
>>> - >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dbird_hide 
>>> 
>>> ->>>  >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dwildlife_hide 
>>> 
>>> ->>>  >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dhunting_stand 
>>> 
>>> ->>>  >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:hunting%3Draised_hide 
>>> 
>>> ->>>  >>> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tower:type%3Dobservation 
>>> 
>>>
>>> What’s confusing is that photos in the first three look the same, even with 
>>> a book on birds featured on the wildlife_hide page.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>>>
>>> I can imagine how tower:type=observation differs from the others, but what 
>>> do you think about four others? Should we add a warning box on all three 
>>> “_hide” tags to use amenity=hunting_stand instead? Or choose one “_hide” 
>>> over others? Currently the wiki is very disorienting.
>>>
>>
>>
>>
>> a hunting stand is a place where hunters are waiting for animals to shoot 
>> them. A bird hide or wildlife hide is a place where you can observe animals 
>> / birds.
>>
>> I do not recall any discussion about hunting=raised_hide and it seems to be 
>> a duplicate or sub-group of hunting stand. The tag should probably be 
>> discouraged as stand alone tag (in favor of hunting stand), but it could 
>> make sense to state the subtype of hunting stand.
>>
>> Observation towers are similar features, but usually higher and not 
>> specifically for watching animals. The definition says they are for "long 
>> distance" observations, while hunting stands are for observing within 
>> shooting range.
>>
>> With regard to your photo, we cannot tell which is the correct tag, because 
>> we do not know what the purpose is.
>>
>> Cheers,
>> Martin
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging 
>> 
>>

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Hunting stands, bird and wildlife hides

2019-10-22 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer 
the bird/wildlife watching places I have mapped had indeed signs with typical 
animals you might see, while hunting stands in my area at most may have signage 
that you may not access them, but usually there are no signs at all 

Cheers Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Hunting stands, bird and wildlife hides

2019-10-22 Thread Jmapb via Tagging 

On 10/22/2019 10:36 AM, Ilya Zverev wrote:

I understand the reasoning, but I don’t see how can I follow the
“truth on the ground” principle. Are there any guidelines on choosing
the correct tag? For some reason people don’t write its purpose on a
side. And again, images in three of these pages are the same.


My suggestion:

- Does you believe it's for hunting? Tag amenity=hunting_stand (almost
1000 times more popular than hunting=raised_hide).
- Do you believe it's primarily for bird watching? Tag leisure=bird_hide.
- Neither of the above but it still appears to be for watching wildlife?
Tag leisure=wildlife_hide.
- It's a tower but you're not sure what it's for? Tag man_made=tower and
optionally tower:type=observation/whatever your best guess is. (You can
also add tower tags to any of the tags above, if you think it's a good fit.)
- It's not a tower and you're not sure what it's for? Tag
building=yes/hut/shed/cabin/whatever.

J


___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Hunting stands, bird and wildlife hides

2019-10-22 Thread Paul Allen 
On Tue, 22 Oct 2019 at 15:40, Ilya Zverev  wrote:

> I understand the reasoning, but I don’t see how can I follow the “truth on
> the ground” principle. Are there any guidelines on choosing the correct
> tag? For some reason people don’t write its purpose on a side.
>

The purpose may not be written on the side but may be documented elsewhere,
or the hide
may have a name such as "Curlew Hide."  Failing that, birds are animals, so
if you don't know
then "animal hide."  If it's not on a nature reserve then it may be a
shooting hide.

And again, images in three of these pages are the same.
>

Not unreasonable as there may be little to physically distinguish the
various types of hides.

-- 
Paul
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Hunting stands, bird and wildlife hides

2019-10-22 Thread Andy Townsend 

On 22/10/2019 15:36, Ilya Zverev wrote:
For some reason people don’t write its purpose on a side. And again, 
images in three of these pages are the same.


This probably varies around the world, but I suspect in many places the 
intended use is pretty obvious (if not actually written on the side, 
which it would be in the UK).  Like with many other tags, you need to 
map to the best of your knowledge.  If you pick the wrong one someone 
can always correct it later.


Best Regards,

Andy



___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Hunting stands, bird and wildlife hides

2019-10-22 Thread Ilya Zverev 
I understand the reasoning, but I don’t see how can I follow the “truth on the 
ground” principle. Are there any guidelines on choosing the correct tag? For 
some reason people don’t write its purpose on a side. And again, images in 
three of these pages are the same.

Ilya

> On 22 Oct 2019, at 10:46, Martin Koppenhoefer  wrote:
> 
> 
> 
> Am Di., 22. Okt. 2019 um 09:35 Uhr schrieb Ilya Zverev  >:
> Hi folks,
> 
> Today we were looking for a tag to mark this structure:
> 
> http://not.textual.ru/zverik/2/5/some_hide.jpg 
> 
> 
> Searching the wiki gave out FIVE options:
> 
> - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dbird_hide 
> 
> - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:leisure%3Dwildlife_hide 
> 
> - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dhunting_stand 
> 
> - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:hunting%3Draised_hide 
> 
> - https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tower:type%3Dobservation 
> 
> 
> What’s confusing is that photos in the first three look the same, even with a 
> book on birds featured on the wildlife_hide page.
> 
> 
> I can imagine how tower:type=observation differs from the others, but what do 
> you think about four others? Should we add a warning box on all three “_hide” 
> tags to use amenity=hunting_stand instead? Or choose one “_hide” over others? 
> Currently the wiki is very disorienting.
> 
> 
> 
> a hunting stand is a place where hunters are waiting for animals to shoot 
> them. A bird hide or wildlife hide is a place where you can observe animals / 
> birds.
> 
> I do not recall any discussion about hunting=raised_hide and it seems to be a 
> duplicate or sub-group of hunting stand. The tag should probably be 
> discouraged as stand alone tag (in favor of hunting stand), but it could make 
> sense to state the subtype of hunting stand.
> 
> Observation towers are similar features, but usually higher and not 
> specifically for watching animals. The definition says they are for "long 
> distance" observations, while hunting stands are for observing within 
> shooting range.
> 
> With regard to your photo, we cannot tell which is the correct tag, because 
> we do not know what the purpose is.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging 
> 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Proposing an amendment for an existing tag

2019-10-22 Thread Vɑdɪm 
dieterdreist wrote
> can you please be more specific? It really depends on the kind of
> amendment
> which procedure seems appropriate (or at least isn't for sure).

At some urban locations one can find (https://overpass-turbo.eu/s/Nls) that
every crossing of a railway=tram with any highway=* is tagged with
railway=level_crossing even if railway=tram is actually embedded into the
roadbed and there is no special marking or signage about it there.

On the other hand as per the Geneva Convention on Road Traffic
(https://www.unece.org/fileadmin/DAM/trans/conventn/Conv_road_traffic_EN.pdf)
such a crossing counts as a "level crossing" only if a railway is separated
from the road:
> (i)  “Level-crossing”  means  any  level  intersection  between  a  road
>  and  a  railway  or  tramway track with its own track formation;

I think that's a rather important clarification which could help solving
some confusion about the matter which arises sometimes.




--
Sent from: http://gis.19327.n8.nabble.com/Tagging-f5258744.html

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] How to tag pedestrian lanes?

2019-10-22 Thread Markus 
On Mon, 21 Oct 2019 at 23:01, John Willis via Tagging <
tagging@openstreetmap.org> wrote:
>
> Is "foot:lanes" An established value?

There are only 32 uses according to Taginfo and the tag isn't mentioned in
the wiki. However, there are 4,450 uses of bicycle:lanes and that tag is
briefly mentioned in the wiki. [1][2]

I'm unsure if foot:lanes works as a alternative to pedestrian_lane or if
this is only an addition for more complex situations. In any case i don't
see a problem with it as opposed to sidewalk:right:kerb=no.

Besides, i just realised that sidewalk:right:kerb=no could also mean a
parallel footpath without kerb but with another physical barrier, like for
example here [3].

[1]:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Bicycle#Cycle_lanes_and_bus.2Ftaxi_lanes
[2]:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Lanes#Crossing_with_a_designated_lane_for_bicycles
[3]: https://www.mapillary.com/map/im/i-yuqBv2liMpsG4mWNyiew

Regards

Markus
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging