Re: [Tagging] plantation=yes?

[stevea]

On Dec 10, 2022, at 12:04 PM, Andy Townsend  wrote:
> On 10/12/2022 18:23, Mark Wagner wrote:
>> As actually used on the map, "natural=wood" and "landuse=forest" are
>> synonyms.
>> 
> Depends on the map - if there are no other tags https://map.atownsend.org.uk 
> will show "landuse=forest" in a lighter green to "natural=wood" (to indicate 
> "forestry"; it also supports "landuse=forestry" too).  If there are other 
> tags (e.g. "leaf_type") it'll use the same colour as for "natural=wood".

At least a couple of things:  round and round goes OSM as the distinctions 
between landuse=forest and natural=wood have at least SIX "flavors" (documented 
in our wiki [1] for years), user:Penegal took THREE revisions (over years) to 
get even a minor flavor of something related to this Approved (as such 
boundaries [2] are really "a thing" in parts of the world).  I have all but 
given up on a "globally correct" approach and do what it seems like "others do 
around here."  Even as I know someone from another part of the world — even a 
seasoned OSM editor / volunteer / contributor — would be confused by "the 
tagging around here."

Also, "plantation" means a lot of different things to different people.  In the 
USA state of Maine, a "plantation" is a particular kind of...well, sorta like 
admin_level, but not exactly, a kind of "minor civil division" (among admin 
levels in the USA) [3].  It falls between "unincorporated area" and "town" but 
you have to pay attention to history and whether something is "organized" 
and/or "incorporated" under Maine law or a charter of something (like a town 
charter); it can be complicated (like administrative divisions in pretty much 
any middle-level jurisdiction on Earth).  I know this isn't what is really 
"meant" what is being talked about here with the word "plantation" (well, the 
key as documented in our wiki), but rather a "forest plantation" (for wood / 
lumber production)...and there seems to be some overlap (in the OSM tagging 
sense of "plantation") with things like rubber, fruits, orchards, et cetera.  
Such topics (keys with multiple meanings) continue to be difficult to tease 
apart in OSM without making "in this region, we do it like this..." kinds of 
hand-waving gestures.  Such is the real world of tagging ambiguity we live in.  
It isn't terrible, but it does exist.  The best we can do is continue to 
discuss and document to further clarity and understanding.  This doesn't always 
disambiguate, but it can (and often does) help.

I don't say all this to toot a sour note.  Rather, I say it because of the 
difficulty of how sometimes "tagging" meets that truth about language:  words 
mean different things in different dialects and different parts of the world 
and different contexts (especially because we use "English" and maybe "UK 
English," maybe not, as there is Australian English, Canadian English, 
Singapore English, US English...maybe dozens or a hundred of these dialects?)  
And once one context (like "things that grow and are harvested") gets smeared 
with another (like administrative hierarchies), all bets are off.  The latter 
doesn't happen often, but it can and does.

When "one single tag" tries to capture "this" (in OSM) but there are also "that 
and those" (in the real world), we get such collisions.  Luckily, we can 
discuss these things, document things in our wiki, take votes, Approve some 
things, disapprove of some things, sharpen our focus on those things, et 
cetera.  It's a long road, we get there, or at least a bit closer all the time, 
never really quite with perfection, but I'll take that:  that's "mapping."

[1] https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Forest 

[2] https://wiki.osm.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dforest_compartment 

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Plantation_(Maine)
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Re: [Tagging] scope of emergency=dry_riser_inlet

[Kyle Hensel]

I think we need a new tag then. In New Zealand dry risers are not allowed for 
new buildings, since charged systems are safer...

François’s suggestion of emergency=riser_inlet + a sub tag seems like a good 
idea, but is it possible to deprecated an approved tag?

Otherwise we need several main tags:

emergency=dry_riser_inlet
emergency=wet_riser_inlet
emergency=charged_riser_inlet
emergency=sprinkler_inlet



From: Martin Koppenhoefer
Sent: Sunday, 11 December 2022 15:02
To: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools
Subject: Re: [Tagging] scope of emergency=dry_riser_inlet



sent from a phone

> On 10 Dec 2022, at 10:35, Kyle Hensel  wrote:
>
> However the wiki says “fire department connection” is a synonym of the tag.


it is probably not always a synonym, it is if the riser is dry.
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Re: [Tagging] scope of emergency=dry_riser_inlet

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 10 Dec 2022, at 10:35, Kyle Hensel  wrote:
> 
> However the wiki says “fire department connection” is a synonym of the tag.


it is probably not always a synonym, it is if the riser is dry.
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Re: [Tagging] plantation=yes?

[Andy Townsend]

On 10/12/2022 18:23, Mark Wagner wrote:

As actually used on the map, "natural=wood" and "landuse=forest" are
synonyms.

Depends on the map - if there are no other tags 
https://map.atownsend.org.uk will show "landuse=forest" in a lighter 
green to "natural=wood" (to indicate "forestry"; it also supports 
"landuse=forestry" too).  If there are other tags (e.g. "leaf_type") 
it'll use the same colour as for "natural=wood".


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] plantation=yes?

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

10 gru 2022, 19:23 od mark+...@carnildo.com:

> On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 18:49:00 +0100
> Florian Lohoff  wrote:
>
>> On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 01:10:33PM +, Dave F via Tagging wrote:
>> > Hi
>> > 
>> > What does plantation=yes represent?
>> > Associated with woods, but nothing in the wiki. 2437  uses
>> > worldwide. Seems too vague to be OSM useful. 
>>
>> Interesting - I would say natural=wood + plantation=yes is more likely
>> landuse=forest isnt it? 
>>
>> At least for me natural=wood is a non artifical forest, but those are
>> pretty rare at least around where i live. All of the forest has been 
>> chopped down at least a hundret times since mankind arrived in Europe.
>>
>
> As actually used on the map, "natural=wood" and "landuse=forest" are
> synonyms.
>
See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Forest for gory details

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Re: [Tagging] plantation=yes?

[Enno Hermann]

The usage of plantation=yes was discussed on the Carto repository recently:
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/4721

It is also briefly mentioned on the wiki:
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:landuse%3Dplantation

-eginhard

On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 7:26 PM Mark Wagner  wrote:

> On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 18:49:00 +0100
> Florian Lohoff  wrote:
>
> > On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 01:10:33PM +, Dave F via Tagging wrote:
> > > Hi
> > >
> > > What does plantation=yes represent?
> > > Associated with woods, but nothing in the wiki. 2437  uses
> > > worldwide. Seems too vague to be OSM useful.
> >
> > Interesting - I would say natural=wood + plantation=yes is more likely
> > landuse=forest isnt it?
> >
> > At least for me natural=wood is a non artifical forest, but those are
> > pretty rare at least around where i live. All of the forest has been
> > chopped down at least a hundret times since mankind arrived in Europe.
>
> As actually used on the map, "natural=wood" and "landuse=forest" are
> synonyms.
>
> --
> Mark
>
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Re: [Tagging] plantation=yes?

[Mark Wagner]

On Sat, 10 Dec 2022 18:49:00 +0100
Florian Lohoff  wrote:

> On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 01:10:33PM +, Dave F via Tagging wrote:
> > Hi
> > 
> > What does plantation=yes represent?
> > Associated with woods, but nothing in the wiki. 2437  uses
> > worldwide. Seems too vague to be OSM useful.  
> 
> Interesting - I would say natural=wood + plantation=yes is more likely
> landuse=forest isnt it? 
> 
> At least for me natural=wood is a non artifical forest, but those are
> pretty rare at least around where i live. All of the forest has been 
> chopped down at least a hundret times since mankind arrived in Europe.

As actually used on the map, "natural=wood" and "landuse=forest" are
synonyms.

-- 
Mark

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Re: [Tagging] plantation=yes?

[Anne-Karoline Distel]

That was my thought at first. But maybe, forest as in "planted woodland"
is not necessarily always for chopping down later, they might be planted
for recreative purposes or for the air quality.
Hard to tell from aerial view, though.

On 10/12/2022 17:49, Florian Lohoff wrote:

On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 01:10:33PM +, Dave F via Tagging wrote:

Hi

What does plantation=yes represent?
Associated with woods, but nothing in the wiki. 2437  uses worldwide.
Seems too vague to be OSM useful.

Interesting - I would say natural=wood + plantation=yes is more likely
landuse=forest isnt it?

At least for me natural=wood is a non artifical forest, but those are
pretty rare at least around where i live. All of the forest has been
chopped down at least a hundret times since mankind arrived in Europe.

Flo

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Re: [Tagging] plantation=yes?

[Florian Lohoff]

On Sat, Dec 10, 2022 at 01:10:33PM +, Dave F via Tagging wrote:
> Hi
> 
> What does plantation=yes represent?
> Associated with woods, but nothing in the wiki. 2437  uses worldwide.
> Seems too vague to be OSM useful.

Interesting - I would say natural=wood + plantation=yes is more likely
landuse=forest isnt it? 

At least for me natural=wood is a non artifical forest, but those are
pretty rare at least around where i live. All of the forest has been 
chopped down at least a hundret times since mankind arrived in Europe.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
  Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic.


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - relation type=sled

[Philipp Spitzer]

Dear Yves and Anne!

Thanks for you comments!


sled vs. sledding: I agree that sledding is a better word, however as
"sled" is already used for piste:type I chose to stick to that. But sure
it's easy to use something else.



I think it will be hard to find a lot of support for a relation type

grouping sled runs, parking, restaurants, etc...



All the additionalfeatures can be found easily in OSM: they are close
> to the run itself.


It's true that if the intention is to identify ways that are used for
sledding and huts, parking and restaurants in the proximity the existing
tags are sufficient, however there are some situations where I couldn't
map the situation like I feel it should be done (that does not mean that
this proposal is the best solution):

* Like bike routes, sled runs have a name that is not necessarily
identical to the name of the way it uses. Specifically, the "way up"
that is sometimes separated from the sledrun itself run can hardly be
tagged as piste:type sled. But it still is - from winter sports
perspective - part of the sled run "route".

* Not that crucial but still easy to track if we have a relation is the
parking which "belongs" to the sled run as the snow is removed in winter
which is not so obvious to see from plain parking elements and which
restaurants are open during "sports time" and welcome people doing
sledding. And, which cable cars do carry sledges.



For the walking parts, highway=path or else, or maybe
piste:type=hike or connection if nothing remains in summer are
already walkable and routable to connect the sled run to the rest of
the world.


I totally agree.


In any case, this does not mean sledding doesn't deserve a nice 
documentation page in the wiki!


:-)


Why not https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:route%3Dpiste ?

You are right, it's really similar. I guess the main reason is that at 
the time I was in the need for something like this sled relation I was 
not available (or I didn't find it those days). It would probably need 
some tweeking to cover all information I suggested (like a way to 
distinguish parts where you need to walk and where you can actually 
sled) but I'll have a closer look at it to see whether this could be done.


Best regards,
Philipp

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Re: [Tagging] plantation=yes?

[Timothy Noname]

Wood planted to be cut down as timber, I would imagine.

They tend to be boring areas with little aesthetic or environmental benefit.

How forests are tagged is a huge can of worms

On Sat, 10 Dec 2022, 13:15 Dave F via Tagging, 
wrote:

> Hi
>
> What does plantation=yes represent?
>
> Associated with woods, but nothing in the wiki. 2437  uses worldwide.
>
> Seems too vague to be OSM useful.
>
> DaveF
>
>
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[Tagging] plantation=yes?

[Dave F via Tagging]

Hi

What does plantation=yes represent?

Associated with woods, but nothing in the wiki. 2437  uses worldwide.

Seems too vague to be OSM useful.

DaveF


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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - relation type=sled

[Yves via Tagging]

I think it will be hard to find a lot of support for a relation type grouping 
sled runs, parking, restaurants, etc... 
All the additional features can be found easily in OSM: they are close to the 
run itself.

For the walking parts, highway=path or else, or maybe piste:type=hike or 
connection if nothing remains in summer are already walkable and routable to 
connect the sled run to the rest of the world.

In any case, this does not mean sledding doesn't deserve a nice documentation 
page in the wiki!

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Re: [Tagging] scope of emergency=dry_riser_inlet

[François Lacombe]

Hi Kyle

It is true that sometimes the riser may be permanantly pressurised with
main water.

At least in France, we may find inlets on those pressurised risers
http://www.formationssiap.fr/colonne-seche-colonne-humide-dit-charge/
We have clear labels "colonne seche" (dry riser) and "colonne humide"
(pressurised riser) seen from streets, so often verifiable.

It may be interesting to refactor with emergency=riser_inlet + tag for
dry/pressurised (to be determined)

Pressurised risers may be different from sprinklers as well.

Best regards

François

Le sam. 10 déc. 2022 à 10:35, Kyle Hensel  a écrit :

> Hi,
>
>
>
> The tag emergency=dry_riser_inlet contains the word “Dry”, which suggests
> that it can only be used for inlets into _dry_ riser systems.
>
>
>
> However the wiki says “fire department connection” is a synonym of the
> tag.
>
> This suggests that the `emergency=dry_riser_inlet` can be used for other
> types of riser inlets, not just dry ones, which is confusing given the name
> of the tag.
>
>
>
> So, is the wiki correct? And if not, how do you tag an inlet into a
> building where the system is permanently pressurized?
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - Approved - Street parking revision

[Alex]

I am happy to inform that the street parking revision proposal was 
accepted with 51 votes in favour, 2 votes against and 1 abstention.


A new wiki page on street parking mapping has already been set up 
(https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Street_parking) - it contains the 
new information from the proposal as well as those aspects of the 
previous pages that remain. Wiki clean up is still in progress - and 
from now it is also necessary to check and update information mapped 
according to the old schema. We have already collected some information 
on the topic of data migration in the proposal - there are also already 
some tools that help with updating parking lanes: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/street_parking_revision#Tools_helping_with_updating_parking_lane_data


Thank you for the great participation in the discussion and voting on 
the proposal and good luck with mapping ;)


Alex
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - relation type=sled

[Anne-Karoline Distel]

Ah, fond childhood memories... Anyway, I was a bit confused about the
word "sled", but I get it, now that I have seen the wiki page. How about
calling it "sledding", though, in parallel to "walking" or "hiking"?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledding

Regards,

Anne

On 10/12/2022 09:11, Philipp Spitzer wrote:

Dear all!

I like to propose
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Sled (which is
actually a quite old proposal) which tries to overcome the
shortcomings of piste:type=sled (without replacing it).

I would be happy if you could provide thoughts/comments in the
corresponding wiki page (preferred) or here.

Thank you,
Philipp

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[Tagging] scope of emergency=dry_riser_inlet

[Kyle Hensel]

Hi,

The tag emergency=dry_riser_inlet contains the word “Dry”, which suggests that 
it can only be used for inlets into _dry_ riser systems.

However the wiki says “fire department connection” is a synonym of the tag.
This suggests that the `emergency=dry_riser_inlet` can be used for other types 
of riser inlets, not just dry ones, which is confusing given the name of the 
tag.

So, is the wiki correct? And if not, how do you tag an inlet into a building 
where the system is permanently pressurized?
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Re: [Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - relation type=sled

[Yves via Tagging]

Why not https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:route%3Dpiste ?
Sled is already documented and used for those relations.

Regards,
Yves 

Le 10 décembre 2022 10:11:39 GMT+01:00, Philipp Spitzer 
 a écrit :
>Dear all!
>
>I like to propose https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Sled 
>(which is actually a quite old proposal) which tries to overcome the 
>shortcomings of piste:type=sled (without replacing it).
>
>I would be happy if you could provide thoughts/comments in the corresponding 
>wiki page (preferred) or here.
>
>Thank you,
>Philipp
>
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[Tagging] Feature Proposal - RFC - relation type=sled

[Philipp Spitzer]

Dear all!

I like to propose 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Sled (which is 
actually a quite old proposal) which tries to overcome the shortcomings 
of piste:type=sled (without replacing it).


I would be happy if you could provide thoughts/comments in the 
corresponding wiki page (preferred) or here.


Thank you,
Philipp

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