Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 24.02.2016 um 11:52 schrieb Max :
> 
> Where different people seem to be around. It's kind of tiring having to
> bring up all the arguments again because some haven't followed the
> discussion here.


yes, mailing list discussions in the archive are not very visible, you can 
still post a link for reference in the wiki, like this: 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2016-February/028403.html

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Max]

The discussion seems to be happening in the wiki now
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Tag:tourism%3Dgallery#Problems_with_the_gallery_tag

Where different people seem to be around. It's kind of tiring having to
bring up all the arguments again because some haven't followed the
discussion here.

:/

> 
> 2016-02-17 13:30 GMT+01:00 Max  >:
> 
> > +0.5, I'd actually make the latter contemporary_art_gallery, although 
> it is long, it removes the ambiguity that art_gallery still has
> 
> yes, but then there are galleries that are still selling works of
> (post-)modern, not necessarily contemporary artists, which they used to
> represent when they still were alive and they continue to sell off their
> stock of multiples. "Edition Block" comes to my mind, allthough there
> might be better examples as they also represent many artists which are
> still alive and contemporary.
> 
> it's complicated.
> 
> 
> 
> I would somehow still find it pertinent to call those "contemporary art
> gallery", where the artists might be defunct but once had chosen this
> gallerist to be represented by him. Even if for an art historian the
> post modernists are no more "contemporary" in 2016, the gallery still
> can be called "contemporary art gallery" if it already existed by the
> time the represented artist was contemporary himself.
> 
> Cheers,
> Martin
> 

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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-02-17 13:30 GMT+01:00 Max :

> > +0.5, I'd actually make the latter contemporary_art_gallery, although it
> is long, it removes the ambiguity that art_gallery still has
>
> yes, but then there are galleries that are still selling works of
> (post-)modern, not necessarily contemporary artists, which they used to
> represent when they still were alive and they continue to sell off their
> stock of multiples. "Edition Block" comes to my mind, allthough there
> might be better examples as they also represent many artists which are
> still alive and contemporary.
>
> it's complicated.



I would somehow still find it pertinent to call those "contemporary art
gallery", where the artists might be defunct but once had chosen this
gallerist to be represented by him. Even if for an art historian the post
modernists are no more "contemporary" in 2016, the gallery still can be
called "contemporary art gallery" if it already existed by the time the
represented artist was contemporary himself.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Max]

On 2016년 02월 12일 09:40, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> Am 11.02.2016 um 23:39 schrieb Max :
>>
>> I'd say so.1. depreciate tourism=gallery for museums, make it a subtype
>> of tourism=museum.
>> For actual galleries introduce amenity=art_gallery
> 
> 
> +0.5, I'd actually make the latter contemporary_art_gallery, although it is 
> long, it removes the ambiguity that art_gallery still has

yes, but then there are galleries that are still selling works of
(post-)modern, not necessarily contemporary artists, which they used to
represent when they still were alive and they continue to sell off their
stock of multiples. "Edition Block" comes to my mind, allthough there
might be better examples as they also represent many artists which are
still alive and contemporary.

it's complicated.

m.

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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> Am 11.02.2016 um 23:39 schrieb Max :
> 
> I'd say so.1. depreciate tourism=gallery for museums, make it a subtype
> of tourism=museum.
> For actual galleries introduce amenity=art_gallery


+0.5, I'd actually make the latter contemporary_art_gallery, although it is 
long, it removes the ambiguity that art_gallery still has

cheers,
Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Max]

On 2016년 01월 25일 23:44, Matthijs Melissen wrote:
> Hi all,
> 
> The wiki defines the tag tourism=gallery as 'an area or typically a
> building that displays a variety of visual art exhibitions' [1]. This
> is an officially approved tag [2]. In addition, the wiki page on
> tourism=museum [3] specifies that art galleries should be tagged as
> tourism=gallery, even if they have 'museum' in the name.

The issue is that according to the wiki museums and contemporary art
galleries are the same thing, yet they are very different things (the
main thing is that the objects are for sale (but it doesn't make it a
shop either!!)

Just look at the picture examples, where the first two are museums, the
last one is a gallery. It's plain wrong to have those in the same
category. If we find this OK we can also tag it with something=art
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dgallery#Photos

> However, practice shows that the tag tourism=gallery is not very
> frequently used. We have currently 54 951 instances of tourism=museum,
> versus only 1 505 instances of tourism=gallery. I had a look at some
> famous galleries: the MoMA in New York, the Uffizi in Florence, the
> National Gallery of Art in Washington DC, the Van Gogh Museum in
> Amsterdam, the Musée d'Orsay in Paris, and the Guggenheim Museum in
> Bilbao. It turned out that all of them are tagged as tourism=museum.

Rightly so. None of them are galleries.

> This might be partly caused by ignorant mappers, but perhaps there is
> also a more fundamental problem. The line between a gallery and a
> museum is not always easy to draw, especially in continental Europe,
> where many museums have both historic and artistic exhibitions
> (compare for instance the Louvre). Also the fact that many galleries
> are called 'museum' does not help.

I see it the opposite way. Many Art Museums call themselves Gallery. But
as I said before, that's a different meaning of the word. We are also
not tagging Galeries Lafayette or Galeria Kaufhof as tourism=gallery

> How should we continue from here? Should we try to improve the tagging
> situation? Or should we discourage tourism=gallery, making it a
> subtype of tourism=museum?

I'd say so.1. depreciate tourism=gallery for museums, make it a subtype
of tourism=museum.
For actual galleries introduce amenity=art_gallery






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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Max]

On 2016년 01월 26일 15:53, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> On 26 January 2016 at 14:12, Marc Zoutendijk  wrote:
>>> I would like :
>>> - discourage tourism=gallery
>>> - subtype of tourism=museum, museum=art just like
>>> museum=railway/history, and further art=painting/...
>>> - also redirect towards shop=art for badly tagged items
>>>
>>
>> +1
>> This is a clear solution.
> 
> +1
> 
> 

Except we need a new tag for what is a "contemporary art gallery" or
short: gallery. because the current shop=art is not a gallery.

in the definition of shop=art it clearly says "The shop primarily sells
art products." Contemporary Art Galleries make their money by selling
art, but the typical visitor is not buying anything. It has a function
of display to increase awareness and knowledge about the artist (to
increase her/his value).

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:shop%3Dart



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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Colin Smale]

Indications, may be, but no more than that. What it is actually called
is subjective - it was a human decision at some point in the past.
Politics often plays a big role in that decision... What is *IS* can be
made more or less objective by reference to definitions. 

On 2016-02-11 10:06, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

> 2016-02-11 2:44 GMT+01:00 Greg Troxel :
> 
>> We have to separate words that appear in names from tag definitions that
>> happen to use the same words.
> 
> words in names are strong indications. The word "gallery" has multiple 
> meanings, that why the word "contemporary art gallery" is there to 
> distinguish these from the "paintings museum"-galleries.
> 
> Cheers, 
> Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-02-11 2:44 GMT+01:00 Greg Troxel :

> We have to separate words that appear in names from tag definitions that
> happen to use the same words.
>


words in names are strong indications. The word "gallery" has multiple
meanings, that why the word "contemporary art gallery" is there to
distinguish these from the "paintings museum"-galleries.

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Greg Troxel]

John Eldredge  writes:

> There is a large art museum in Washington, DC, named the National Gallery.

Yes, but it's a museum that happens to have gallery in the name :-)

We have to separate words that appear in names from tag definitions that
happen to use the same words.


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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[John Eldredge]

There is a large art museum in Washington, DC, named the National Gallery.

--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On January 26, 2016 4:29:17 AM Gerd Petermann 
 wrote:



althio wrote

It brings too much confusion, I take it for a bad case of duck tagging.

I would like :
- discourage tourism=gallery
- subtype of tourism=museum, museum=art just like
museum=railway/history, and further art=painting/...
- also redirect towards shop=art for badly tagged items


+ 1
I've never mapped one, but I was very surprised to see
that tourism=gallery exists.

Gerd




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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[John Eldredge]

In the US, gallery can refer to a museum, but it more commonly refers to a 
retail store selling art.


--
John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com
"Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot 
drive out hate; only love can do that." -- Martin Luther King, Jr.




On January 25, 2016 5:10:55 PM Frederik Ramm  wrote:


Hi,

   the German word "Galerie" is often used for art showrooms where you
can actually buy the stuff on display. (I know a couple that are not
larger than a typical hairdresser's.) Hence I wouldn't be surprised if
many of the 415 tourism=gallery features in Germany were such
establishments. They're certainly not museums.


I had a look at some
famous galleries: the MoMA in New York, the Uffizi in Florence, the
National Gallery of Art in Washington DC, the Van Gogh Museum in
Amsterdam, the Musée d'Orsay in Paris, and the Guggenheim Museum in
Bilbao. It turned out that all of them are tagged as tourism=museum.


I'd probably have hesitated to tag them as "galleries", fearing I'd be
responsible for OSM-reliant tourists requesting to know the sales price
of an item in the MoMA ;)

Bye
Frederik

--
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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Andy Mabbett]

On 26 January 2016 at 14:12, Marc Zoutendijk  wrote:
>> I would like :
>> - discourage tourism=gallery
>> - subtype of tourism=museum, museum=art just like
>> museum=railway/history, and further art=painting/...
>> - also redirect towards shop=art for badly tagged items
>>
>
> +1
> This is a clear solution.

+1


-- 
Andy Mabbett
@pigsonthewing
http://pigsonthewing.org.uk

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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Marc Zoutendijk]

> Op 26 jan. 2016, om 10:43 heeft althio  het volgende 
> geschreven:
> 
> 
> I would like :
> - discourage tourism=gallery
> - subtype of tourism=museum, museum=art just like
> museum=railway/history, and further art=painting/...
> - also redirect towards shop=art for badly tagged items
> 

+1
This is a clear solution.

Marc.



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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Holger Jeromin]

Frederik Ramm 
 Wrote in message:
> Hi,
> 
>the German word "Galerie" is often used for art showrooms where you
> can actually buy the stuff on display. (I know a couple that are not
> larger than a typical hairdresser's.) Hence I wouldn't be surprised if
> many of the 415 tourism=gallery features in Germany were such
> establishments. They're certainly not museums.

All of the gallery objects around Aachen are shops and the real
 world galleries are tagged as museums. 

Official moving to museum would be a good step imo. 

-- 
Holger


Android NewsGroup Reader
http://usenet.sinaapp.com/


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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Daniel Koć]

W dniu 26.01.2016 11:27, Gerd Petermann napisał(a):

althio wrote
It brings too much confusion, I take it for a bad case of duck 
tagging.


I would like :
- discourage tourism=gallery
- subtype of tourism=museum, museum=art just like
museum=railway/history, and further art=painting/...
- also redirect towards shop=art for badly tagged items


+ 1
I've never mapped one, but I was very surprised to see
that tourism=gallery exists.


I also like this proposition. I had this problem myself in my home city 
with National Museum and public gallery of art (Zacheta), which are very 
similar in what they exhibit. Probably National Museum:


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Museum,_Warsaw

shows also some non-art artifacts of historical value, but it has mainly 
art collections and "national museum" is defined in English Wikpedia as 
"museum maintained by nation", so the actual type is not necessarily 
different than national "art museum". I think that art gallery is also 
kind of museum when not selling and otherwise just the "art shop" (not 
to be confused with shops with accessories for artists).


So I think "tourism=museum + museum=art + art=*" scheme can be useful 
for distinguishing from commercial galleries ("shop=art") without going 
too deep into museum/gallery naming conventions, which can be 
misleading. It could be good to also have some tag for national museum 
(like "operator=national" or something like this).


--
"Завтра, завтра всё кончится!" [Ф. Достоевский]

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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

2016-01-26 10:43 GMT+01:00 althio :

> I would like :
> - discourage tourism=gallery
> - subtype of tourism=museum, museum=art just like
> museum=railway/history, and further art=painting/...
> - also redirect towards shop=art for badly tagged items
>


I agree we should distinguish art museums and other types of museums like
transportation, railway, aircraft, automobile, toys, "science", (sometimes
specific) ancient cultures, (e.g.) sugar, trade, military, regional
traditions, ...) and even further (optionally) art into painting, drawing,
print, sculptures, video, photo, and also put attributes for the epoch(s)
that are typically on display (if appropriate).
I would suggest to use more explicit key names than "art" for these, e.g.
museum_topic, art_type, exhibits_from_period=,... (placeholders to make the
point and likely improvable)

Cheers,
Martin
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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Gerd Petermann]

althio wrote
> It brings too much confusion, I take it for a bad case of duck tagging.
> 
> I would like :
> - discourage tourism=gallery
> - subtype of tourism=museum, museum=art just like
> museum=railway/history, and further art=painting/...
> - also redirect towards shop=art for badly tagged items

+ 1 
I've never mapped one, but I was very surprised to see 
that tourism=gallery exists. 

Gerd




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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Hakuch]

On 26.01.2016 10:43, althio wrote:
> I would like :
> - discourage tourism=gallery
> - subtype of tourism=museum, museum=art just like
> museum=railway/history, and further art=painting/...
> - also redirect towards shop=art for badly tagged items

+1



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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[althio]

I agree there is a more fundamental problem.

This has been discussed in other places that I know of:
[french] 
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-fr/2015-January/074711.html
[carto] 
https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/883#issuecomment-81849889

My view is :
- tourism=gallery is not a well understood tag, 5 years after the vote
- in 5 years, it didn't convert many important art museums ("false
negatives" sticking with tourism=museum)
- in 5 years, it attracted a lot of selling galleries ("false
positives", should be shop=art)

It brings too much confusion, I take it for a bad case of duck tagging.

I would like :
- discourage tourism=gallery
- subtype of tourism=museum, museum=art just like
museum=railway/history, and further art=painting/...
- also redirect towards shop=art for badly tagged items

althio


On 25 January 2016 at 23:44, Matthijs Melissen  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> The wiki defines the tag tourism=gallery as 'an area or typically a
> building that displays a variety of visual art exhibitions' [1]. This
> is an officially approved tag [2]. In addition, the wiki page on
> tourism=museum [3] specifies that art galleries should be tagged as
> tourism=gallery, even if they have 'museum' in the name.
>
> However, practice shows that the tag tourism=gallery is not very
> frequently used. We have currently 54 951 instances of tourism=museum,
> versus only 1 505 instances of tourism=gallery. I had a look at some
> famous galleries: the MoMA in New York, the Uffizi in Florence, the
> National Gallery of Art in Washington DC, the Van Gogh Museum in
> Amsterdam, the Musée d'Orsay in Paris, and the Guggenheim Museum in
> Bilbao. It turned out that all of them are tagged as tourism=museum.
>
> This might be partly caused by ignorant mappers, but perhaps there is
> also a more fundamental problem. The line between a gallery and a
> museum is not always easy to draw, especially in continental Europe,
> where many museums have both historic and artistic exhibitions
> (compare for instance the Louvre). Also the fact that many galleries
> are called 'museum' does not help.
>
> How should we continue from here? Should we try to improve the tagging
> situation? Or should we discourage tourism=gallery, making it a
> subtype of tourism=museum?
>
> -- Matthijs
>
> [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dgallery
> [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Art_gallery
> [3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dmuseum
>
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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Matthijs Melissen]

On 26 January 2016 at 00:08, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
>the German word "Galerie" is often used for art showrooms where you
> can actually buy the stuff on display. (I know a couple that are not
> larger than a typical hairdresser's.)

Note that we have shop=art for such places, which is about 4 times as
popular as tourism=gallery.

-- Matthijs

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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Clifford Snow]

On Mon, Jan 25, 2016 at 2:44 PM, Matthijs Melissen  wrote:

> The wiki defines the tag tourism=gallery as 'an area or typically a
> building that displays a variety of visual art exhibitions' [1]. This
> is an officially approved tag [2]. In addition, the wiki page on
> tourism=museum [3] specifies that art galleries should be tagged as
> tourism=gallery, even if they have 'museum' in the name.
>
> However, practice shows that the tag tourism=gallery is not very
> frequently used. We have currently 54 951 instances of tourism=museum,
> versus only 1 505 instances of tourism=gallery. I had a look at some
> famous galleries: the MoMA in New York, the Uffizi in Florence, the
> National Gallery of Art in Washington DC, the Van Gogh Museum in
> Amsterdam, the Musée d'Orsay in Paris, and the Guggenheim Museum in
> Bilbao. It turned out that all of them are tagged as tourism=museum.
>
> This might be partly caused by ignorant mappers, but perhaps there is
> also a more fundamental problem. The line between a gallery and a
> museum is not always easy to draw, especially in continental Europe,
> where many museums have both historic and artistic exhibitions
> (compare for instance the Louvre). Also the fact that many galleries
> are called 'museum' does not help.
>
> How should we continue from here? Should we try to improve the tagging
> situation? Or should we discourage tourism=gallery, making it a
> subtype of tourism=museum?
>

The art galleries that I'm familiar with would fit better under shop. They
sell artists work. Galleries in museums are rooms, usually devoted to a
theme. MoMA currently has an exhibit "Jackson Pollock: A Collection Survey,
1934–1954" in the "Prints and Illustrated Books Galleries." This room could
be appropriately tagged tourism=gallery, name="Prints and Illustrated Books"

On the other hand, Bill Traver's Traver Gallery in Seattle exhibits that is
for sale. It's tagged as shop=art. shop=art has over 5K uses.

Clifford


-- 
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Re: [Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

   the German word "Galerie" is often used for art showrooms where you
can actually buy the stuff on display. (I know a couple that are not
larger than a typical hairdresser's.) Hence I wouldn't be surprised if
many of the 415 tourism=gallery features in Germany were such
establishments. They're certainly not museums.

> I had a look at some
> famous galleries: the MoMA in New York, the Uffizi in Florence, the
> National Gallery of Art in Washington DC, the Van Gogh Museum in
> Amsterdam, the Musée d'Orsay in Paris, and the Guggenheim Museum in
> Bilbao. It turned out that all of them are tagged as tourism=museum.

I'd probably have hesitated to tag them as "galleries", fearing I'd be
responsible for OSM-reliant tourists requesting to know the sales price
of an item in the MoMA ;)

Bye
Frederik

-- 
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[Tagging] Art galleries/museums

[Matthijs Melissen]

Hi all,

The wiki defines the tag tourism=gallery as 'an area or typically a
building that displays a variety of visual art exhibitions' [1]. This
is an officially approved tag [2]. In addition, the wiki page on
tourism=museum [3] specifies that art galleries should be tagged as
tourism=gallery, even if they have 'museum' in the name.

However, practice shows that the tag tourism=gallery is not very
frequently used. We have currently 54 951 instances of tourism=museum,
versus only 1 505 instances of tourism=gallery. I had a look at some
famous galleries: the MoMA in New York, the Uffizi in Florence, the
National Gallery of Art in Washington DC, the Van Gogh Museum in
Amsterdam, the Musée d'Orsay in Paris, and the Guggenheim Museum in
Bilbao. It turned out that all of them are tagged as tourism=museum.

This might be partly caused by ignorant mappers, but perhaps there is
also a more fundamental problem. The line between a gallery and a
museum is not always easy to draw, especially in continental Europe,
where many museums have both historic and artistic exhibitions
(compare for instance the Louvre). Also the fact that many galleries
are called 'museum' does not help.

How should we continue from here? Should we try to improve the tagging
situation? Or should we discourage tourism=gallery, making it a
subtype of tourism=museum?

-- Matthijs

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dgallery
[2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Art_gallery
[3] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:tourism%3Dmuseum

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