Re: [Tagging] Definition and usage of Key:mtb:scale:imba?

2020-04-22 Thread brad 
I'm going to change my mind.   I don't think mtb:scale:imba should be 
deprecated.   It should be used instead of mtb:scale because it is 
better.   The IMBA Trail Difficulty Rating System was designed for all 
trails, not just bike park trails or trails with features. It follows 
that OSM should use it for all trails too, not just IMBA signed trails, 
or bike park trails.      I agree with everything that user Opadeira is 
proposing and I'll add some comments to the wiki talk page.



On 4/22/20 7:12 PM, Andrew Harvey wrote:
On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 at 03:03, brad > wrote:


I've never seen an official IMBA rating on a sign.


I have, 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/9/96/Serrata_Mountain_Bike_Track_Board_Map.jpeg


I see both mtb:scale and mtb:scale:imba both used. The wiki for
mtb:scale doesn't make sense.   It's either skewed for extremely
extreme riding or they don't understand gradient.   It says that
for mtb:scale=1, gradient<40%.   This is meaningless.   Nobody can
ride up an unpaved grade that is 40%, or probably even 30%.   A
steep trail is 15%.   A really steep, almost unrideable, very
difficult hiking, trail is 20%.    Going downhill, anything above
25% is a double black, only a small percentage of riders can ride,
unless it is very smooth with really good traction.


I agree, I find it very hard to set mtb:scale confidently based on the 
descriptions on the wiki.


In my opinion, mtb:scale:imba could be deprecated, and the wiki
for mtb:scale updated & clarified.


I would disagree on that, mtb:scale:imba is still useful to mark 
officially signposted or designated ratings of the track made 
according to the IMBA system, like in the first photo I posted.


I'd be very keen to review any improvements to mtb:scale though, I 
have very low confidence in all the ones I've tagged so far as I feel 
like every time I read the wiki I have a different opinion



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Re: [Tagging] Definition and usage of Key:mtb:scale:imba?

2020-04-22 Thread Andrew Harvey 
On Thu, 23 Apr 2020 at 03:03, brad  wrote:

> I've never seen an official IMBA rating on a sign.
>

I have,
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/images/9/96/Serrata_Mountain_Bike_Track_Board_Map.jpeg


> I see both mtb:scale and mtb:scale:imba both used.   The wiki for
> mtb:scale doesn't make sense.   It's either skewed for extremely extreme
> riding or they don't understand gradient.   It says that for mtb:scale=1,
> gradient<40%.   This is meaningless.   Nobody can ride up an unpaved grade
> that is 40%, or probably even 30%.   A steep trail is 15%.   A really
> steep, almost unrideable, very difficult hiking, trail is 20%.Going
> downhill, anything above 25% is a double black, only a small percentage of
> riders can ride, unless it is very smooth with really good traction.
>

I agree, I find it very hard to set mtb:scale confidently based on the
descriptions on the wiki.

In my opinion, mtb:scale:imba could be deprecated, and the wiki for
> mtb:scale updated & clarified.
>

I would disagree on that, mtb:scale:imba is still useful to mark officially
signposted or designated ratings of the track made according to the IMBA
system, like in the first photo I posted.

I'd be very keen to review any improvements to mtb:scale though, I have
very low confidence in all the ones I've tagged so far as I feel like every
time I read the wiki I have a different opinion
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Re: [Tagging] Definition and usage of Key:mtb:scale:imba?

2020-04-22 Thread brad 

I've never seen an official IMBA rating on a sign.
I see both mtb:scale and mtb:scale:imba both used.   The wiki for 
mtb:scale doesn't make sense.   It's either skewed for extremely extreme 
riding or they don't understand gradient.   It says that for 
mtb:scale=1, gradient<40%.   This is meaningless.   Nobody can ride up 
an unpaved grade that is 40%, or probably even 30%.   A steep trail is 
15%.   A really steep, almost unrideable, very difficult hiking, trail 
is 20%.    Going downhill, anything above 25% is a double black, only a 
small percentage of riders can ride, unless it is very smooth with 
really good traction.


The tag has been used with common sense, but inconsistently, instead of 
the wiki definition.


In the US, we us a green/blue/black/doubleBlack system which I would not 
consider an IMBA system, but merely a subjective rating by whoever made 
the map,  usually a local mtb club or land manager. IMBA probably 
clarified it, but it probably predates IMBA.   The apps trailforks and 
mtbproject use green/blue/black/doubleBlack ratings as determined by the 
users.  For the most part it's consistent, but one does have to be 
cognizant of the local bias.
The imba rating system was not invented for bike parks, so the OSM use 
for bike parks doesn't make much sense.


In my opinion, mtb:scale:imba could be deprecated, and the wiki for 
mtb:scale updated & clarified.


On 4/22/20 5:00 AM, Simon Poole wrote:


IMHO, the problem is using mtb:scale:imba 
 in place 
of mtb:scale for normal trails which I suspect the intent of the 
original wording was to avoid that happening.


Simon

Am 22.04.2020 um 10:53 schrieb Andrew Harvey:
I've been using mtb:scale:imba on any kind of trail where signage at 
the site notes an IMBA rating, in this way it's verifiable based on 
the sign. I don't know what "bikepark" and "north shore" mean here 
but while some of these trails which have an IMBA rating can be 
consider together as part of a collection of trails and that 
collection does have a name sperate to the individual tracks (which I 
guess is what bikepark means) others which do have signposted IMBA 
ratings are standalone and not part of a named collection of trails.


So if it has an official or signposted IMBA rating, it should be 
tagged regardless of the trail being "natural" or with "artificial 
obstacles" and regardless if it's part of a mountain bike "park" or not.


On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 at 17:29, Joseph Eisenberg 
mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> wrote:


Another user would like to redefine the definition of
"Key:mtb:scale:imba"

See suggestions at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:mtb:scale:imba:

This tag was approved in the proposal
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/mtb:scale -
with the description "The IMBA Trail Difficulty Rating System
shall be used for bikeparks. Especially for North Shore. It is
adapted to mtb trails with artificial obstacles. For "natural"
trails it is advised to use the mtb:scale/mtb:uphill:scale." -
linked to
http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/itn_17_4_trail_difficulty.html

Can other mappers who use this tag frequently confirm whether it
is limited to specifically designed and built bike trails, like
those found in "bikeparks"?

-- Joseph Eisenberg
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Re: [Tagging] Definition and usage of Key:mtb:scale:imba?

2020-04-22 Thread Simon Poole 
IMHO, the problem is using mtb:scale:imba
 in place
of mtb:scale for normal trails which I suspect the intent of the
original wording was to avoid that happening.

Simon

Am 22.04.2020 um 10:53 schrieb Andrew Harvey:
> I've been using mtb:scale:imba on any kind of trail where signage at
> the site notes an IMBA rating, in this way it's verifiable based on
> the sign. I don't know what "bikepark" and "north shore" mean here but
> while some of these trails which have an IMBA rating can be
> consider together as part of a collection of trails and that
> collection does have a name sperate to the individual tracks (which I
> guess is what bikepark means) others which do have signposted IMBA
> ratings are standalone and not part of a named collection of trails.
>
> So if it has an official or signposted IMBA rating, it should be
> tagged regardless of the trail being "natural" or with "artificial
> obstacles" and regardless if it's part of a mountain bike "park" or not.
>
> On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 at 17:29, Joseph Eisenberg
> mailto:joseph.eisenb...@gmail.com>> wrote:
>
> Another user would like to redefine the definition of
> "Key:mtb:scale:imba" 
>
> See suggestions
> at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:mtb:scale:imba:
>
> This tag was approved in the
> proposal https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/mtb:scale
> - with the description "The IMBA Trail Difficulty Rating System
> shall be used for bikeparks. Especially for North Shore. It is
> adapted to mtb trails with artificial obstacles. For "natural"
> trails it is advised to use the mtb:scale/mtb:uphill:scale." -
> linked
> to 
> http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/itn_17_4_trail_difficulty.html
>
> Can other mappers who use this tag frequently confirm whether it
> is limited to specifically designed and built bike trails, like
> those found in "bikeparks"?
>
> -- Joseph Eisenberg
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Re: [Tagging] Definition and usage of Key:mtb:scale:imba?

2020-04-22 Thread Jonathon Rossi 
On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 6:54 PM Andrew Harvey 
wrote:

> I've been using mtb:scale:imba on any kind of trail where signage at the
> site notes an IMBA rating
>
Same here. If a land manager has signed an IMBA rating I'll tag it. These
ratings are generally relative to other trails in the same bike park/area
(not just based on the guidelines), so it is of lesser value to make these
up just for a single trail, use other specific physical tags (surface, etc)
for observations.

> The Trail Difficulty Rating System shall be used for bikeparks, this
applies for instance to North Shore [from wiki page history]
Either referring to the trails in Canada (
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Shore_(Greater_Vancouver)), or the
style of trails that originated in this area. Either way, it didn't add
anything useful to the description so good that it is gone.

-- 
Jono
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Re: [Tagging] Definition and usage of Key:mtb:scale:imba?

2020-04-22 Thread Andrew Harvey 
I've been using mtb:scale:imba on any kind of trail where signage at the
site notes an IMBA rating, in this way it's verifiable based on the sign. I
don't know what "bikepark" and "north shore" mean here but while some of
these trails which have an IMBA rating can be consider together as part of
a collection of trails and that collection does have a name sperate to the
individual tracks (which I guess is what bikepark means) others which do
have signposted IMBA ratings are standalone and not part of a named
collection of trails.

So if it has an official or signposted IMBA rating, it should be tagged
regardless of the trail being "natural" or with "artificial obstacles" and
regardless if it's part of a mountain bike "park" or not.

On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 at 17:29, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> Another user would like to redefine the definition of "Key:mtb:scale:imba"
>
> See suggestions at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:mtb:scale:imba:
>
> This tag was approved in the proposal
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/mtb:scale - with
> the description "The IMBA Trail Difficulty Rating System shall be used for
> bikeparks. Especially for North Shore. It is adapted to mtb trails with
> artificial obstacles. For "natural" trails it is advised to use the
> mtb:scale/mtb:uphill:scale." - linked to
> http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/itn_17_4_trail_difficulty.html
>
> Can other mappers who use this tag frequently confirm whether it is
> limited to specifically designed and built bike trails, like those found in
> "bikeparks"?
>
> -- Joseph Eisenberg
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[Tagging] Definition and usage of Key:mtb:scale:imba?

2020-04-22 Thread Joseph Eisenberg 
Another user would like to redefine the definition of "Key:mtb:scale:imba"

See suggestions at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Talk:Key:mtb:scale:imba:

This tag was approved in the proposal
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/mtb:scale - with the
description "The IMBA Trail Difficulty Rating System shall be used for
bikeparks. Especially for North Shore. It is adapted to mtb trails with
artificial obstacles. For "natural" trails it is advised to use the
mtb:scale/mtb:uphill:scale." - linked to
http://www.imba.com/resources/trail_building/itn_17_4_trail_difficulty.html

Can other mappers who use this tag frequently confirm whether it is limited
to specifically designed and built bike trails, like those found in
"bikeparks"?

-- Joseph Eisenberg
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