Re: [Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[Mateusz Konieczny]

10 Nov 2019, 22:44 by dieterdre...@gmail.com:

> What is the benefit of having this information in OpenStreetMap? There is 
> nothing the crowd could contribute to improve this data, we would be a mere 
> distribution service of government data, and we would be at least as out of 
> date as they are (because the process of verifying and inserting the data 
> takes so time, as does the insertion in OpenStreetMap). 
>
+1this seems to be read-only data, what is pointless at best

 Maybe instead add id / ref in this external database? Or wikidata tag and 
import ids/refs
into Wikidata?
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

While I first was assuming this would comprise inactive but contaminated sites, 
I now see this is for operational sites only, which are dealing with chemical 
substances of which release into the environment could potentially pose a 
hazard to the people living nearby. Right?

How would we survey this? There is not much that can be surveyed worse ;-)
You would have to ask the operator of the site which are the substances they 
are dealing with (and they would not have to answer you, nor would it seem that 
if they answered their reply would be very reliable), then you would have to 
have the knowledge to understand their reply and to evaluate it, probably very 
few of us are in this position. So the only “reliable” source would be 
information collected, assessed and  released by the government. High risk 
could mean the substances are very dangerous, or a potential accident could 
release a lot of them, or it could mean the operations are executed in a way 
that an accident is more likely than it ideally should be, for example, if 
there wasn’t sufficient maintenance for a longer period of time, if the safety 
measurements aren’t the best/most recent available, problems in critical safety 
components have already been found, etc.

Am I guessing correctly that this is about kind and quantity of substances that 
are dealt with? 
The other possibly relevant information (for risk assessment) is likely not 
publicly available.

What is the benefit of having this information in OpenStreetMap? There is 
nothing the crowd could contribute to improve this data, we would be a mere 
distribution service of government data, and we would be at least as out of 
date as they are (because the process of verifying and inserting the data takes 
so time, as does the insertion in OpenStreetMap). 

If we still would decide to import this kind of assessment results, I would 
suggest to use keys which make it clear which criterion/system has been used 
(i.e. use specific keys for each source). While it may look similar on paper to 
a layman, it may be very different systems, or different practice of assigning 
risks even with the exact same system (but there’s no doubt that the actual 
systems/schemes are different).

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[Andy Townsend]

On 10/11/2019 09:53, Jan Michel wrote:
This seems like there are varying definitions in different countries, 
but all aim at basically the same thing - potential hazards to the 
environment. How about this scheme?


hazard_class = comah:XYZ
hazard_class = seveso:XYZ

For completeness the UK appears to have to classes - "upper tier" and 
"lower tier" - see http://www.hse.gov.uk/comah/comah-establishments.htm 
, and that's determined based "on the quantity of dangerous substances 
they hold" (already noted elsewhere in the thread as relevant).


Best Regards,

Andy




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Re: [Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[Jan Michel]

On 08.11.19 11:15, Lionel Giard wrote:
> Seveso sites are all sites identified as source for a "potential major
> industrial hazard"

On 08/11/2019 09:44, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:
> My first guess is it's at least roughly analogous to a Superfund site 
> in the US.


On 08.11.19 12:11, Andy Townsend wrote:

The local regulations in the UK for that are known as COMAH (see  > 
https://www.hse.gov.uk/comah/ ).


This seems like there are varying definitions in different countries, 
but all aim at basically the same thing - potential hazards to the 
environment. How about this scheme?


hazard_class = comah:XYZ
hazard_class = seveso:XYZ


It establishes a common top-level tag and country specific / system 
specific values. This is analogous to e.g. zone:traffic and 
zone:maxspeed used on roads. The 'XYZ' values depend on the 
classification given by the respective scheme.


We could think about adding the country code to the key (like 
hazard_class:US, hazard_class=UK) to separate countries from each other, 
but this doesn't seem necessary.


I wouldn't recommend to add the scheme to the key (as in 
hazard_class:soveso), because this tends to create quite messy tags that 
are difficult to use.



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[Warin]

On 09/11/19 10:20, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:


sent from a phone


On 8. Nov 2019, at 23:47, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:

hazard=chemical
"risk_level"=low/medium/high


what kind of risk is the risk_level addressing? “chemical” is very generic, may 
be fine for the first level but should get a more detailed subtag aside. Also 
we should maybe distinguish between sites with supposed contamination and those 
where certain substances have already been detected.


These sites pose a potential to pollute .. air, water or ground.
This particular value is not indicating present contamination, or possible 
present contamination.



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[Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[Michael Patrick]

> I was wondering how to tag Seveso sites. [1]
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_2012/18/EU

Read the actual directive, and drill down. Basically, it's up to each
nation to decide the categorization. And if you dive further down into
that, the reporting requirements may or may not give you any but the most
general geographical information, and very little to assess what the
potential hazard might be. One example I looked at, for instance stated
that certain chemicals were present onsite, but for a microchip
manufacturer that could be a single bottle on the shelf - on the other
hand, any bulk chemical processing facility might have tens of railroad
tanker cars lined up. As far as I could tell, there may not actually be any
on site, they are simply 'registered' to store it for use. Another factor
is that businesses startup and shutdown, so like all bureaucratic
procedural information, what is the plan for continuous maintenance?

> I see an interest to tag these sites as there are many of them and the
information of public interest.

Other nefarious parties are also interested. So. the addresses in some
cases are only the administrative 'home office', not the exact locations,
which are to be given to the local law enforcement, fire, and other
emergency responders - which makes sense because otherwise it would provide
a ready target list for thieves and terrorists ( there is an entire federal
agency division dedicated to this in the U.S.
https://www.dhs.gov/cisa/chemical-security ).

> Any suggestion what tagging scheme to use ?

Use the tagging ( categorization ) scheme the regulatory agency themselves
uses to classify these sites.

If you by chance mean historical sites, that presents another set of
issues. I live a couple blocks from
https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/cursites/csitinfo.cfm?id=1000614  and it
is profoundly uninteresting because it has been stabilized for decades.
Much different than
https://cumulis.epa.gov/supercpad/cursites/csitinfo.cfm?id=1001114 which
has huge leaking tanks of radioactive stew that could kill a exposed human
within seconds.

> But I barely find some site tagged in practice, ...

Probably because they ran into the issues above. My inclination is that
this is a good case where OSM should be combined as a layer in Leaflet with
an available map
http://geobru.irisnet.be/en/maps/monitoring-of-pollution-associated-with-seveso-site/69/
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[OSMDoudou via Tagging]

Agreed. I just responded something similar.

Question is now how to tag properly.

I don't expect a tag called "seveso".

I would use a tag that mentions the norm in a way or another, but I'm not sure how to best do it.



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[OSMDoudou]

The case at hand here is a norm to characterize a  hazard, not the result of a past incident.

In fact, I don't mind if the tags are not detailed.

I was thinking to reflect the classification scheme in place.

A bit like the stars for hotels. If it's a 4 star hotel, we don't tag all the details of the norm, but we refer to it instead.




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Re: [Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 at 09:21, Martin Koppenhoefer 
wrote:

>
> what kind of risk is the risk_level addressing? “chemical” is very
> generic, may be fine for the first level but should get a more detailed
> subtag aside. Also we should maybe distinguish between sites with supposed
> contamination and those where certain substances have already been detected.
>

I've never heard of any of the 3 mentioned types of "hazardous" sites!, but
from what has been said, Seveso & the other terms are used for sites that
could potentially be hazardous, & the governing body has determined that
"this spot" is potentially "very" dangerous, while these one's aren't so
bad.

I'd suggest we run with the level of risk determined by the authorities?

I don't think that it's a thing that a mapper walking past the front gate
is going to be able to say "Aha, this is a Soveso Class 1 plant"! (Unless,
of course, it's signposted that way, & I'd sort of doubt that!)

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 8. Nov 2019, at 23:47, Graeme Fitzpatrick  wrote:
> 
> hazard=chemical
> "risk_level"=low/medium/high


what kind of risk is the risk_level addressing? “chemical” is very generic, may 
be fine for the first level but should get a more detailed subtag aside. Also 
we should maybe distinguish between sites with supposed contamination and those 
where certain substances have already been detected.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[Graeme Fitzpatrick]

How about as hazards?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/hazard

It appears it was originally intended for road hazards but certainly
comments on the pge re extending it to other hazardous situations.

Possibly mark a chemical plant (in addition to industrial site etc)
something like:

hazard=chemical
"risk_level"=low/medium/high

Would that work?

Thanks

Graeme


On Sat, 9 Nov 2019 at 03:04, OSMDoudou <
19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:

> Indeed. I'm not an expert, but it's a good summary.
>
> Data about the classification is available and of public interest, so I'm
> wondering how to tag
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[OSMDoudou]

Indeed. I'm not an expert, but it's a good summary.

Data about the classification is available and of public interest, so I'm 
wondering how to tag.


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Re: [Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[Andy Townsend]

On 08/11/2019 09:44, Shawn K. Quinn wrote:


My first guess is it's at least roughly analogous to a Superfund site in
the US.


That's what I thought at first reading too, but perhaps its meant more 
to describe somewhere where a disaster might happen rather than one 
where one already has?


The local regulations in the UK for that are known as COMAH (see 
https://www.hse.gov.uk/comah/ ).


I didn't use any specific COMAH tagging for my local site 
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/334238388 , but would be happy to add 
something if a consensus emerges.


Best Regards,

Andy



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Re: [Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[Lionel Giard]

Seveso sites are all sites identified as source for a "potential major
industrial hazard" (mainly big chemical plant - and it doesn't include the
military or nuclear facilities). It is named after the Seveso disaster of
1976  (Seveso is a town in
Italy) which had a big media coverage and important impact on health in the
area (many animals were slaughtered, and many people affected).

As far as i understand, the seveso directive is based on different
threshold (the threshold depends on the chemical element, the stability of
the product, ...). If it is below the first threshold, it is not a Seveso
site (not at big risk), if it pass the first threshold it is "Low" (low
risk) and if it pass the second threshold it is ranked as "High" (high
risk).

Le ven. 8 nov. 2019 à 10:45, Shawn K. Quinn  a écrit :

> On 11/8/19 03:34, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> > What is a Seveso site? The link to the directive on Wikipedia says:
> >
> > “a European Union
> >  directive
> >  aimed at
> > controlling major chemical accident hazards. Seveso III is implemented
> > in national legislation and is enforced by national chemical safety
> > authorities.”
> >
> > Are these chemical hazard sites? Inspection sites?
>
> My first guess is it's at least roughly analogous to a Superfund site in
> the US.
>
> --
> Shawn K. Quinn 
> http://www.rantroulette.com
> http://www.skqrecordquest.com
>
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Re: [Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[Shawn K. Quinn]

On 11/8/19 03:34, Joseph Eisenberg wrote:
> What is a Seveso site? The link to the directive on Wikipedia says:
> 
> “a European Union
>  directive
>  aimed at
> controlling major chemical accident hazards. Seveso III is implemented
> in national legislation and is enforced by national chemical safety
> authorities.”
> 
> Are these chemical hazard sites? Inspection sites? 

My first guess is it's at least roughly analogous to a Superfund site in
the US.

-- 
Shawn K. Quinn 
http://www.rantroulette.com
http://www.skqrecordquest.com

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Re: [Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[Joseph Eisenberg]

What is a Seveso site? The link to the directive on Wikipedia says:

“a European Union  directive
 aimed at
controlling major chemical accident hazards. Seveso III is implemented in
national legislation and is enforced by national chemical safety
authorities.”

Are these chemical hazard sites? Inspection sites?

-Joseph

On Fri, Nov 8, 2019 at 5:42 PM OSMDoudou <
19b350d2-b1b3-4edb-ad96-288ea1238...@gmx.com> wrote:

> Hello,
>
>
>
> I was wondering how to tag Seveso sites. [1]
>
>
>
> I found a page in French language on the wiki which indirectly mentions
> the possibility to tag "seuilːFRːDREAL=haut/bas" (with tag and value in
> French language). [2]
>
>
>
> Taginfo shows it's indeed in use, but only in France. [3]
>
>
>
> I see an interest to tag these sites as there are many of them and the
> information of public interest.
>
>
>
> But I barely find some site tagged in practice, so I wonder if I’m missing
> something or if I’m not looking in the right tags.
>
>
>
> Any suggestion what tagging scheme to use ?
>
>
>
> Thank you.
>
>
>
> [1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_2012/18/EU
>
> [2]
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/France/Liste_des_références_nationales
>
> [3] http://taginfo.openstreetmap.fr/keys/seuil%3AFR%3ADREAL#values
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[Tagging] How to tag Seveso sites ?

[OSMDoudou]

Hello,

 

I was wondering how to tag Seveso sites. [1]

 

I found a page in French language on the wiki which indirectly mentions the 
possibility to tag "seuilːFRːDREAL=haut/bas" (with tag and value in French 
language). [2]

 

Taginfo shows it's indeed in use, but only in France. [3] 

 

I see an interest to tag these sites as there are many of them and the 
information of public interest.

 

But I barely find some site tagged in practice, so I wonder if I’m missing 
something or if I’m not looking in the right tags.

 

Any suggestion what tagging scheme to use ?

 

Thank you.

 

[1] https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Directive_2012/18/EU

[2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/France/Liste_des_références_nationales

[3] http://taginfo.openstreetmap.fr/keys/seuil%3AFR%3ADREAL#values

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