Re: [Tagging] Public refrigerators

[Jmapb]

On 3/2/2020 3:57 PM, Kevin Kenny wrote:

I'm sure that there'd be a subcategory for 'hiker boxes' as well.
  http://www.thetrailmaster.com/hike-smart/hiker-boxes-share-and-share-alike/
https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/55460-quot-I-found-it-in-a-hiker-box-quot
Major long-distance trails in the US often have them at resupply points.

I've used them to leave gear, (for example a pair of gaiters that I
was never going to use again because they turned out to be one size
too small for my boots) and supplies (for example, about 750 ml of
denatured alcohol when the store had it in litre cans, or three rolls
of toilet paper from a 4-pack) in them. I've raided them to top up on
things like hand sanitizer, plastic bags and coffee filters. (A hiker
might need to carry a handful of filters or Ziplocs between resupply
points; the stores sell them in packages of 100. Perfect application
for 'share alike!') I even found that one contained a replacement for
a broken buckle for one of the straps on my backpack - just when I
needed one.


Hiker boxes are mentioned as part of the give_box proposal, tagged with
hiking=yes. Works for me, though I'd be fine with an amenity=hiker_box
tag if it appears to be warranted. That would make it easier to tag the
presence of a hiker box (hiker_box=yes) at a post office, shop, shelter,
hotel, etc.

It's impossible to predict what can be left and found -- in my
experience: clothing, food, instant drinks, maps, books, batteries, fuel
(including white gas, propane canisters, esbits, and alcohol), non-fuel
alcohol, painkillers, cookware, water bottles, water filters, tent
stakes, rope, ziplocks, duct tape, sewing kits, shoelaces, soap,
shampoo, toothpaste, probably a lot I'm forgetting. Often there are
unlabeled ziplocks full of mysterious powder, and it's anyone's guess if
it's food, beverage, or soap.

A related idea that might be worth tagging is: Places near a hiking
trail that will receive and hold resupply packages, including any
prohibited items (fuel eg) and whether a fee is charged for the service.
Very often these places will also feature hiker boxes stocked from
superfluous supplies.

Jason


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Re: [Tagging] Public refrigerators

[Kevin Kenny]

I'm sure that there'd be a subcategory for 'hiker boxes' as well.
 http://www.thetrailmaster.com/hike-smart/hiker-boxes-share-and-share-alike/
https://www.whiteblaze.net/forum/showthread.php/55460-quot-I-found-it-in-a-hiker-box-quot
Major long-distance trails in the US often have them at resupply points.

I've used them to leave gear, (for example a pair of gaiters that I
was never going to use again because they turned out to be one size
too small for my boots) and supplies (for example, about 750 ml of
denatured alcohol when the store had it in litre cans, or three rolls
of toilet paper from a 4-pack) in them. I've raided them to top up on
things like hand sanitizer, plastic bags and coffee filters. (A hiker
might need to carry a handful of filters or Ziplocs between resupply
points; the stores sell them in packages of 100. Perfect application
for 'share alike!') I even found that one contained a replacement for
a broken buckle for one of the straps on my backpack - just when I
needed one.


On Mon, Mar 2, 2020 at 1:56 PM Jmapb  wrote:
>
> On 2/29/2020 3:43 AM, Markus Peloso wrote:
>
> I find amenity=give_box is different from amenity=food_sharing as a 
> shop=general is different from shop=supermarket.
>
>
>
> In Switzerland if I go into a supermarket I found products of daily hygiene 
> but the main thing is about shopping for food.
>
> True, and the use of the word "pantry" on the free pantry I mentioned tells 
> me that it's primarily for food, so it should be fine to tag it as a free 
> pantry and use a description tag for other info. There doesn't currently seem 
> to be a better tag for a public pantry, so  I was inclined to call it a give 
> box -- but it's distinct enough that it could get its own tag.
>
>
>
> The main thing by a give box is about sharing items. In the description I 
> explicit excluded amenity=give_box + food=only because if you go to e give 
> box you expect some items like clothes, small appliances, dishes, toys.
>
> Based on the proposal it seems like there's quite a range, so you can't know 
> what a give box is for without checking additional tags. If this is not true 
> -- if there's a set list of things that every give box should support -- then 
> we'll end up needing other tags for bunch of new features (eg for the free 
> art box.)
>
>
>
> Does a free pantry have some social aspect? Like given food to 
> underprivileged or homless people social_facility:for=underprivileged, 
> social_facility:for=homeless, …
>
>
>
> Based on the description on this website http://www.littlefreepantry.org/ I 
> think the main thing is about sharing food and it is some kind of social 
> service.
>
> I think Joseph's point is well-taken that there's a scale problem with using 
> the word "facility" for a cupboard or fridge. It would be similar to using 
> "library" for a public bookcase. Doesn't mean that we couldn't add eg 
> "public_pantry:for=underprivileged" of course.
>
> The distinction is complicated by the fact that "food pantry" is sometimes 
> used as a friendlier name for full-scale food bank facilities. (There are 
> also many shops and restaurants called "pantry" of course -- it's a common 
> synecdoche.)
>
> Here's where my head's landed:
>
> Public bookcase - Primarily for free sharing of books, may (in my experience) 
> sometimes have other items like music or movies. Has its own well-supported 
> tag. Rendered as a roof over a book.
>
> Free pantry - Primarily for free sharing of food, may include other items 
> such as personal hygiene products. Often has a "donate to those in need" 
> social service aspect, but this is not required. Probably deserves its own 
> tag. Maybe render it as a roof over a hamburger or apple.
>
> Public refrigerator - A special case of free pantry, tag with 
> refrigerated=yes.
>
> Give box (or whatever we end up naming it) - Catch-all for everything that's 
> not specified for books or food, although in some cases they may include 
> books or food. May have a social service aspect, but not required. Will 
> hopefully get its own tag. Maybe render it as a roof over a gift box 
> (shop=gift icon).
>
> J
>
>
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-- 
73 de ke9tv/2, Kevin

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Re: [Tagging] Public refrigerators

[Jmapb]

On 2/29/2020 3:43 AM, Markus Peloso wrote:


I find amenity=give_box is different from amenity=food_sharing as a
shop=general is different from shop=supermarket.

In Switzerland if I go into a supermarket I found products of daily
hygiene but the main thing is about shopping for food.


True, and the use of the word "pantry" on the free pantry I mentioned
tells me that it's primarily for food, so it should be fine to tag it as
a free pantry and use a description tag for other info. There doesn't
currently seem to be a better tag for a public pantry, so  I was
inclined to call it a give box -- but it's distinct enough that it could
get its own tag.


The main thing by a give box is about sharing items. In the
description I explicit excluded amenity=give_box + food=only because
if you go to e give box you expect some items like clothes, small
appliances, dishes, toys.


Based on the proposal it seems like there's quite a range, so you can't
know what a give box is for without checking additional tags. If this is
not true -- if there's a set list of things that every give box should
support -- then we'll end up needing other tags for bunch of new
features (eg for the free art box.)


Does a free pantry have some social aspect? Like given food to
underprivileged or homless people social_facility:for
=underprivileged,
social_facility:for
=homeless,
…

Based on the description on this website
http://www.littlefreepantry.org/ I think the main thing is about
sharing food and it is some kind of social service.


I think Joseph's point is well-taken that there's a scale problem with
using the word "facility" for a cupboard or fridge. It would be similar
to using "library" for a public bookcase. Doesn't mean that we couldn't
add eg "public_pantry:for=underprivileged" of course.

The distinction is complicated by the fact that "food pantry" is
sometimes used as a friendlier name for full-scale food bank facilities.
(There are also many shops and restaurants called "pantry" of course --
it's a common synecdoche.)

Here's where my head's landed:

Public bookcase - Primarily for free sharing of books, may (in my
experience) sometimes have other items like music or movies. Has its own
well-supported tag. Rendered as a roof over a book.

Free pantry - Primarily for free sharing of food, may include other
items such as personal hygiene products. Often has a "donate to those in
need" social service aspect, but this is not required. Probably deserves
its own tag. Maybe render it as a roof over a hamburger or apple.

Public refrigerator - A special case of free pantry, tag with
refrigerated=yes.

Give box (or whatever we end up naming it) - Catch-all for everything
that's not specified for books or food, although in some cases they may
include books or food. May have a social service aspect, but not
required. Will hopefully get its own tag. Maybe render it as a roof over
a gift box (shop=gift icon).

J


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Re: [Tagging] Public refrigerators

[Markus Peloso]

I find amenity=give_box is different from amenity=food_sharing as a 
shop=general is different from shop=supermarket.

In Switzerland if I go into a supermarket I found products of daily hygiene but 
the main thing is about shopping for food.

The main thing by a give box is about sharing items. In the description I 
explicit excluded amenity=give_box + food=only because if you go to e give box 
you expect some items like clothes, small appliances, dishes, toys.

--

Does a free pantry have some social aspect? Like given food to underprivileged 
or homless people 
social_facility:for<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:social_facility:for>=underprivileged,
 
social_facility:for<https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:Key:social_facility:for>=homeless,
 …

Based on the description on this website http://www.littlefreepantry.org/ I 
think the main thing is about sharing food and it is some kind of social 
service.

Markus

Von: Jmapb<mailto:jm...@gmx.com>
Gesendet: Samstag, 29. Februar 2020 06:34
An: tagging@openstreetmap.org<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Public refrigerators

On 2/26/2020 4:32 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>> On 26. Feb 2020, at 08:56, Markus Peloso  wrote:
>>
>> The amenity=give_box tag is specific for sharing and reusing none food 
>> items. Please do not use it for food sharing
>
> +1, although these are somehow similar features from a certain point of view, 
> they are also significantly different features from another point of view. I 
> am in favor of keeping a distinction on the main tag level.

The give_box proposal specifically said that food sharing was *not* to
be included in the give_box schema.

I voted for that, but since then, with the proposal stalled, I ran into
what I'd called a give box for "packaged food & personal care items."
It's labeled "free pantry" but it's not just for food.
https://i.imgur.com/UzhuIBo.jpg (Non-refrigerated, obviously. There were
actually cans of food in here but not visible in this shot.)

Also hiker boxes -- which were explicitly part of the give_box proposal
-- often have food as well as clothing, gear, books, maps, and fuel. So
maybe the prohibition of food in give_box isn't ideal.

Regardless, though, I don't think a public refrigerator should be a
subtag of give_box -- it's too distinct. I think
amenity=public_refrigerator makes sense. Using amenity=social_facility
plus a subtag would also be fine I guess.

Jason


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Re: [Tagging] Public refrigerators

[Joseph Eisenberg]

> amenity=social_facility

Most  amenity=social_facility features are large "facilities" like a
homeless shelter or nursing home or hospice.

I don't think that tag is appropriate for a refrigerator.

-- Joseph Eisenberg

On 2/29/20, Jmapb  wrote:
> On 2/26/2020 4:32 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
>>> On 26. Feb 2020, at 08:56, Markus Peloso  wrote:
>>>
>>> The amenity=give_box tag is specific for sharing and reusing none food
>>> items. Please do not use it for food sharing
>>
>> +1, although these are somehow similar features from a certain point of
>> view, they are also significantly different features from another point of
>> view. I am in favor of keeping a distinction on the main tag level.
>
> The give_box proposal specifically said that food sharing was *not* to
> be included in the give_box schema.
>
> I voted for that, but since then, with the proposal stalled, I ran into
> what I'd called a give box for "packaged food & personal care items."
> It's labeled "free pantry" but it's not just for food.
> https://i.imgur.com/UzhuIBo.jpg (Non-refrigerated, obviously. There were
> actually cans of food in here but not visible in this shot.)
>
> Also hiker boxes -- which were explicitly part of the give_box proposal
> -- often have food as well as clothing, gear, books, maps, and fuel. So
> maybe the prohibition of food in give_box isn't ideal.
>
> Regardless, though, I don't think a public refrigerator should be a
> subtag of give_box -- it's too distinct. I think
> amenity=public_refrigerator makes sense. Using amenity=social_facility
> plus a subtag would also be fine I guess.
>
> Jason
>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Public refrigerators

[Jmapb]

On 2/26/2020 4:32 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:

On 26. Feb 2020, at 08:56, Markus Peloso  wrote:

The amenity=give_box tag is specific for sharing and reusing none food items. 
Please do not use it for food sharing


+1, although these are somehow similar features from a certain point of view, 
they are also significantly different features from another point of view. I am 
in favor of keeping a distinction on the main tag level.


The give_box proposal specifically said that food sharing was *not* to
be included in the give_box schema.

I voted for that, but since then, with the proposal stalled, I ran into
what I'd called a give box for "packaged food & personal care items."
It's labeled "free pantry" but it's not just for food.
https://i.imgur.com/UzhuIBo.jpg (Non-refrigerated, obviously. There were
actually cans of food in here but not visible in this shot.)

Also hiker boxes -- which were explicitly part of the give_box proposal
-- often have food as well as clothing, gear, books, maps, and fuel. So
maybe the prohibition of food in give_box isn't ideal.

Regardless, though, I don't think a public refrigerator should be a
subtag of give_box -- it's too distinct. I think
amenity=public_refrigerator makes sense. Using amenity=social_facility
plus a subtag would also be fine I guess.

Jason


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Re: [Tagging] Public refrigerators

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 26. Feb 2020, at 08:56, Markus Peloso  wrote:
> 
> The amenity=give_box tag is specific for sharing and reusing none food items. 
> Please do not use it for food sharing


+1, although these are somehow similar features from a certain point of view, 
they are also significantly different features from another point of view. I am 
in favor of keeping a distinction on the main tag level.

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [Tagging] Public refrigerators

[Markus Peloso]

Hello Markus

Thank you for starting this discussion. I have plans to start a feature propose 
for food sharing.

I found four tags that people use for food sharing 
social_facility=food_sharing, amenity=food_sharing, 
social_facility=community_fridge and recycling:food=yes.

https://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/compare/social_facility=food_sharing/amenity=food_sharing/social_facility=community_fridge/recycling:food=yes

Food related sharing boxes are common:

  *   http://mapping.littlefreepantry.org/ (~800 documented)
  *   https://foodsharing.de/karte (~750 documented)

In my opinion, food released boxes deserve their own tag. Give boxes and foot 
related boxes have a different concept in detail. Some foot related boxes eg. 
have a fridge, some disallows meat or only a group of people is allowed to fill 
it up. Little free pantry seems for giving food to poor people. Foodsharing 
seems for reduce food waste.

The amenity=give_box tag is specific for sharing and reusing none food items. 
Please do not use it for food sharing.

Currently I use and suggest amenity=food_sharing [+ fridge=yes] to tag this 
kinds of facility.

Best regards
Markus

Von: Markus<mailto:selfishseaho...@gmail.com>
Gesendet: Dienstag, 25. Februar 2020 19:56
An: Tag discussion, strategy and related tools<mailto:tagging@openstreetmap.org>
Betreff: Re: [Tagging] Public refrigerators

On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 19:44, Jan Michel  wrote:
>
> Hi,
> isn't this exactly what a amenity=give_box is? Just for food and not for
> toys or clothes.

Yes, similar. On the other hand, public bookcases, which have their
own tag, are also kind of give boxes.

> With your proposed tags, we would need yet another one for non-cooled
> food, so this is a bad idea in my opinion.
>
> So, I suggest:
> amenity = give_box
> food = only
> refrigerated = yes

Not perfect, but way better than amenity=recycling or
amenity=social_facility in my opinion.

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Public refrigerators

[Markus]

On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 19:44, Jan Michel  wrote:
>
> Hi,
> isn't this exactly what a amenity=give_box is? Just for food and not for
> toys or clothes.

Yes, similar. On the other hand, public bookcases, which have their
own tag, are also kind of give boxes.

> With your proposed tags, we would need yet another one for non-cooled
> food, so this is a bad idea in my opinion.
>
> So, I suggest:
> amenity = give_box
> food = only
> refrigerated = yes

Not perfect, but way better than amenity=recycling or
amenity=social_facility in my opinion.

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Public refrigerators

[Jan Michel]

Hi,
isn't this exactly what a amenity=give_box is? Just for food and not for 
toys or clothes.
With your proposed tags, we would need yet another one for non-cooled 
food, so this is a bad idea in my opinion.


So, I suggest:
amenity = give_box
food = only
refrigerated = yes


Jan

On 25.02.20 16:44, Markus wrote:

Hello all

I've noticed that recycling:food= has been added [1] to
amenity=recycling wiki page with the meaning "community fridge [2] to
help reduce food waste".



As we already use amenity=public_bookcase and amenity=give_box for two
very similar facilities, it seems better to use something like
amenity=public_refrigerator or amenity=community_fridge.



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Re: [Tagging] Public refrigerators

[Markus]

On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 18:31, Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)
 wrote:
>
> I agree with your thoughts re not using amenity=recycling. I've tagged
> a couple of Community Fridges near me as
>
> amenity=social_facility + social_facility=community_fridge
>
> as this tagging (although not documented anywhere) mirrors that for
> Clothing Banks, Food Banks and Soup Kitchens, which are listed at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:social facility , and seem to
> be related sorts of things. (Though I'm not sure how much these
> community fridges are designed to provide useful items for those in
> need, versus just help reduce waste versus. The balance is probably
> slightly different for each implementation.)

The primary aim of the public fridges here in Switzerland (example
[1]) are clearly to reduce food waste by sharing food (give something
and take something else), not to provide food for the poor (although
they can of course use them too). Therefore, amenity=social_facility
doesn't fit.

[1]: https://www.madamefrigo.ch/en/

On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 18:39, Tim Magee  wrote:
>
> I would agree with tagging as
>
> amenity=social_facility
>
> rather than
>
> amenity=public_fridge
>
> because I would prefer not to add to many more amenity types. Rather I would
> want to subclass existing amenity types.

Is there a problem with more amenity=* keys?

Maybe it would have made sense to put all reusing facilities together
in amenity=reuse or similar, but with already 5,538 uses of
amenity=public_bookcase it's probably too late.

Markus

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Re: [Tagging] Public refrigerators

[Tim Magee]

On Tuesday, February 25, 2020 12:30:13 PM EST Robert Whittaker (OSM lists) 
wrote:
> On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 15:47, Markus  wrote:
> > I've noticed that recycling:food= has been added [1] to
> > amenity=recycling wiki page with the meaning "community fridge [2] to
> > help reduce food waste".
> > 
> > [1]:
> > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:amenity%3Drecycling;
> > diff=1908674=1906084 [2]:
> > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_fridge
> > 
> > In my opinion, it's not a good idea to tag community fridges (public
> > refrigerators) amenity=recycling, because containers for recycling or
> > reuse are only for depositing and not for picking up. What if there
> > are also containers where food can only be deposited, but not picked
> > up (similar to containers for clothing donations)? We couldn't tell
> > them apart any more.
> > 
> > As we already use amenity=public_bookcase and amenity=give_box for two
> > very similar facilities, it seems better to use something like
> > amenity=public_refrigerator or amenity=community_fridge.
> 
> I agree with your thoughts re not using amenity=recycling. I've tagged
> a couple of Community Fridges near me as
> 
> amenity=social_facility + social_facility=community_fridge
> 
> as this tagging (although not documented anywhere) mirrors that for
> Clothing Banks, Food Banks and Soup Kitchens, which are listed at
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:social facility , and seem to
> be related sorts of things. (Though I'm not sure how much these
> community fridges are designed to provide useful items for those in
> need, versus just help reduce waste versus. The balance is probably
> slightly different for each implementation.)
> 
> Robert.

I would agree with tagging as 

amenity=social_facility

rather than

amenity=public_fridge

because I would prefer not to add to many more amenity types. Rather I would 
want to subclass existing amenity types.

-Tim


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Re: [Tagging] Public refrigerators

[Robert Whittaker (OSM lists)]

On Tue, 25 Feb 2020 at 15:47, Markus  wrote:
> I've noticed that recycling:food= has been added [1] to
> amenity=recycling wiki page with the meaning "community fridge [2] to
> help reduce food waste".
>
> [1]: 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:amenity%3Drecycling=1908674=1906084
> [2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_fridge
>
> In my opinion, it's not a good idea to tag community fridges (public
> refrigerators) amenity=recycling, because containers for recycling or
> reuse are only for depositing and not for picking up. What if there
> are also containers where food can only be deposited, but not picked
> up (similar to containers for clothing donations)? We couldn't tell
> them apart any more.
>
> As we already use amenity=public_bookcase and amenity=give_box for two
> very similar facilities, it seems better to use something like
> amenity=public_refrigerator or amenity=community_fridge.

I agree with your thoughts re not using amenity=recycling. I've tagged
a couple of Community Fridges near me as

amenity=social_facility + social_facility=community_fridge

as this tagging (although not documented anywhere) mirrors that for
Clothing Banks, Food Banks and Soup Kitchens, which are listed at
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Key:social facility , and seem to
be related sorts of things. (Though I'm not sure how much these
community fridges are designed to provide useful items for those in
need, versus just help reduce waste versus. The balance is probably
slightly different for each implementation.)

Robert.

-- 
Robert Whittaker

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[Tagging] Public refrigerators

[Markus]

Hello all

I've noticed that recycling:food= has been added [1] to
amenity=recycling wiki page with the meaning "community fridge [2] to
help reduce food waste".

[1]: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:amenity%3Drecycling=1908674=1906084
[2]: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Community_fridge

In my opinion, it's not a good idea to tag community fridges (public
refrigerators) amenity=recycling, because containers for recycling or
reuse are only for depositing and not for picking up. What if there
are also containers where food can only be deposited, but not picked
up (similar to containers for clothing donations)? We couldn't tell
them apart any more.

As we already use amenity=public_bookcase and amenity=give_box for two
very similar facilities, it seems better to use something like
amenity=public_refrigerator or amenity=community_fridge.

What do you think?

Thanks in advance for your feedback.

Best regards

Markus

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