Re: [Tagging] Section numbers in hiking routes

[Mateusz Konieczny via Tagging]

Name of a route, if one exists.

May 23, 2020, 18:17 by winfi...@gmail.com:

> In the end, what will be left in the name tag exactly?
>
> Polyglot
>
> On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 5:53 PM Peter Elderson <> pelder...@gmail.com> > 
> wrote:
>
>> I am trying to improve on the name-tag mess in the many hiking/foot routes 
>> in Nederland. All kinds of information is packed in those names. I am not 
>> doing any cleaning (yet) until all this information can be stored in proper 
>> tags and is handled or scheduled by significant renderers/data users/tools. 
>> There must be reasons for this (ab)use, because it is done all over the 
>> globe. 
>>
>> It's very common to store - and sometimes  in the name tag. 
>> That's an easy one: we have from=*, via=*, to=*. 
>>
>> Sometimes a complete description, a comment or a note (.e.g. about a 
>> temporary detour) is added to the name. Easy: we have description=, note=*, 
>> comment=*. 
>>
>> A ref in the name: store in ref=*.
>>
>> Another item is >> section number>> . This is often used when the route is 
>> split in sections, often according to the sectioning given by the 
>> operator/website. So firstly it's a sort of reference, secondly its an 
>> ordering and sorting mechanism. 
>> Sometimes sections have their own name. I see that a lot in international 
>> (super)routes. 
>>
>> Any ideas how to do this without (ab)using the name tag? Is there a proper 
>> tag that springs to mind, or should we invent one?
>>
>> Peter Elderson
>> ___
>>  Tagging mailing list
>>  >> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
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Re: [Tagging] Section numbers in hiking routes

[Tod Fitch]

I was under the impression that the consensus was that a route name should be 
in a route relation that holds all the segments and that the segment names, if 
different from the route name, were on the segment.

Has that consensus changed or has my impression been wrong?

Cheers!
Tod

> On May 23, 2020, at 9:41 AM, Peter Elderson  wrote:
> 
> Hold on to your hat In the name tag I will store...The Name Of The Route!
> 
> Op za 23 mei 2020 om 18:18 schreef Jo  >:
> In the end, what will be left in the name tag exactly?
> 
> Polyglot
> 
> On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 5:53 PM Peter Elderson  > wrote:
> I am trying to improve on the name-tag mess in the many hiking/foot routes in 
> Nederland. All kinds of information is packed in those names. I am not doing 
> any cleaning (yet) until all this information can be stored in proper tags 
> and is handled or scheduled by significant renderers/data users/tools. There 
> must be reasons for this (ab)use, because it is done all over the globe.
> 
> It's very common to store - and sometimes  in the name tag. 
> That's an easy one: we have from=*, via=*, to=*.
> 
> Sometimes a complete description, a comment or a note (.e.g. about a 
> temporary detour) is added to the name. Easy: we have description=, note=*, 
> comment=*.
> 
> A ref in the name: store in ref=*.
> 
> Another item is section number. This is often used when the route is split in 
> sections, often according to the sectioning given by the operator/website. So 
> firstly it's a sort of reference, secondly its an ordering and sorting 
> mechanism.
> Sometimes sections have their own name. I see that a lot in international 
> (super)routes.
> 
> Any ideas how to do this without (ab)using the name tag? Is there a proper 
> tag that springs to mind, or should we invent one?
> 
> Peter Elderson
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org 
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging 
> 
> ___
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> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging 
> 
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Section numbers in hiking routes

[Peter Elderson]

True, this route relation business tends to get more complicated all the
time, because the reality is getting more complex all the time.

But, with care, a lot can be done. Consistent tagging, and nudging
exceptions back to the mainstream, will help applications and tools
developers to adapt, which in turn will help mappers to do the right thing.

Peter Elderson


Op za 23 mei 2020 om 20:29 schreef Kevin Kenny :

> On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 1:46 PM Yves  wrote:
> > While the original question was about a good tag to record the section
> number, whick look like a reference, I would be tempted to answer Jo that
> to know which country you're in, you should look at Your OSM Database!
> > Joke aside, such a cross border route makes a good candidate for a super
> route.
>
> On a cross-border super-route, the individual route relations could
> have name=* in the local language. The super-route can have 'name:en',
> 'name:fr', 'name:de'¸ etc., and I'm guessing that the governing
> authority of the super-route probably has a working language, and
> 'name=*' on the super-route can use it.
>
> I've used super-routes a few times for more pedestrian reasons. (Pun
> intended.)  They work well to organize things.  Often, there's a
> natural break into segments, even if the segments are informal. That's
> what I did with https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/919642 - cut
> the route at the county lines simply because the tools were struggling
> with a route relation having as many segments as it would have had
> otherwise.   Increasingly, tools such as Waymarked Trails recognize
> super-routes and do the correct hierarchical decomposition.
>
> 919642 also provides a worked example for having a route that follows
> segments of other routes. In many spots in the US, pride of place for
> naming and blazing belongs to the trail that was there first. so
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/111804369 bears the name, "Devil's
> Path", not "Long Path", even though the Long Path is over ten times
> its length. Sometimes that goes to absurd lengths: I understand it's
> now been adjusted, but for decades,
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/389226405 was blazed as an approach
> trail to the Long Trail, because the Long Trail was the senior trail.
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/389226405 was blazed with the
> red-disc-on-a-white-square of the Ramapo-Dunderberg Trail and not the
> vertical-white-bar of the Appalachian Trail for the same reason.
> (Today, the latter way simply bears both blazes.) Generally speaking,
> the major long trails will be at least marked with their own blaze at
> junctions and signposts, but may simply carry the reassurance blazes
> of another trail. In the Devil's Path example, at
>
> https://www.nynjtc.org/sites/default/files/u9655/946523_10200476422125507_495296326_n.jpg
> you see the aqua disc of the Long Path nailed to the sign as an
> afterthought. The red disk of the Devil's Path takes precedence. Along
> the trail, rather than at junctions, you see just the red markers. as
> at https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/1427814
>
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Re: [Tagging] Section numbers in hiking routes

[Kevin Kenny]

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 1:46 PM Yves  wrote:
> While the original question was about a good tag to record the section 
> number, whick look like a reference, I would be tempted to answer Jo that to 
> know which country you're in, you should look at Your OSM Database!
> Joke aside, such a cross border route makes a good candidate for a super 
> route.

On a cross-border super-route, the individual route relations could
have name=* in the local language. The super-route can have 'name:en',
'name:fr', 'name:de'¸ etc., and I'm guessing that the governing
authority of the super-route probably has a working language, and
'name=*' on the super-route can use it.

I've used super-routes a few times for more pedestrian reasons. (Pun
intended.)  They work well to organize things.  Often, there's a
natural break into segments, even if the segments are informal. That's
what I did with https://www.openstreetmap.org/relation/919642 - cut
the route at the county lines simply because the tools were struggling
with a route relation having as many segments as it would have had
otherwise.   Increasingly, tools such as Waymarked Trails recognize
super-routes and do the correct hierarchical decomposition.

919642 also provides a worked example for having a route that follows
segments of other routes. In many spots in the US, pride of place for
naming and blazing belongs to the trail that was there first. so
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/111804369 bears the name, "Devil's
Path", not "Long Path", even though the Long Path is over ten times
its length. Sometimes that goes to absurd lengths: I understand it's
now been adjusted, but for decades,
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/389226405 was blazed as an approach
trail to the Long Trail, because the Long Trail was the senior trail.
https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/389226405 was blazed with the
red-disc-on-a-white-square of the Ramapo-Dunderberg Trail and not the
vertical-white-bar of the Appalachian Trail for the same reason.
(Today, the latter way simply bears both blazes.) Generally speaking,
the major long trails will be at least marked with their own blaze at
junctions and signposts, but may simply carry the reassurance blazes
of another trail. In the Devil's Path example, at
https://www.nynjtc.org/sites/default/files/u9655/946523_10200476422125507_495296326_n.jpg
you see the aqua disc of the Long Path nailed to the sign as an
afterthought. The red disk of the Devil's Path takes precedence. Along
the trail, rather than at junctions, you see just the red markers. as
at https://www.flickr.com/photos/ke9tv/1427814

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Re: [Tagging] Section numbers in hiking routes

[Jo]

oh, I'm mapping public transport too much. I actually did mean to write
superroute.

Jo

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 7:44 PM Yves  wrote:

> While the original question was about a good tag to record the section
> number, whick look like a reference, I would be tempted to answer Jo that
> to know which country you're in, you should look at Your OSM Database!
> Joke aside, such a cross border route makes a good candidate for a super
> route.
> Yves
>
> Le 23 mai 2020 18:49:31 GMT+02:00, Jo  a écrit :
>>
>> So in the case of a route that passes through The Netherlands, Belgium
>> and France, the part in The Netherlands and Flanders will have the same
>> name (in Dutch)? And the parts in Wallonia and France will have the same
>> name as well, but in French instead? No indication which country/region
>> they are passing through?
>>
>> Jo
>>
>> On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 6:42 PM Peter Elderson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Hold on to your hat In the name tag I will store...The Name Of The
>>> Route!
>>>
>>> Op za 23 mei 2020 om 18:18 schreef Jo :
>>>
 In the end, what will be left in the name tag exactly?

 Polyglot

 On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 5:53 PM Peter Elderson 
 wrote:

> I am trying to improve on the name-tag mess in the many hiking/foot
> routes in Nederland. All kinds of information is packed in those names. I
> am not doing any cleaning (yet) until all this information can be stored 
> in
> proper tags and is handled or scheduled by significant renderers/data
> users/tools. There must be reasons for this (ab)use, because it is done 
> all
> over the globe.
>
> It's very common to store - and sometimes  in the name
> tag. That's an easy one: we have from=*, via=*, to=*.
>
> Sometimes a complete description, a comment or a note (.e.g. about a
> temporary detour) is added to the name. Easy: we have description=, 
> note=*,
> comment=*.
>
> A ref in the name: store in ref=*.
>
> Another item is *section number*. This is often used when the route
> is split in sections, often according to the sectioning given by the
> operator/website. So firstly it's a sort of reference, secondly its an
> ordering and sorting mechanism.
> Sometimes sections have their own name. I see that a lot in
> international (super)routes.
>
> Any ideas how to do this without (ab)using the name tag? Is there a
> proper tag that springs to mind, or should we invent one?
>
> Peter Elderson
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
 ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Section numbers in hiking routes

[Yves]

While the original question was about a good tag to record the section number, 
whick look like a reference, I would be tempted to answer Jo that to know which 
country you're in, you should look at Your OSM Database!
Joke aside, such a cross border route makes a good candidate for a super route.
Yves 

Le 23 mai 2020 18:49:31 GMT+02:00, Jo  a écrit :
>So in the case of a route that passes through The Netherlands, Belgium
>and
>France, the part in The Netherlands and Flanders will have the same
>name
>(in Dutch)? And the parts in Wallonia and France will have the same
>name as
>well, but in French instead? No indication which country/region they
>are
>passing through?
>
>Jo
>
>On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 6:42 PM Peter Elderson 
>wrote:
>
>> Hold on to your hat In the name tag I will store...The Name Of
>The
>> Route!
>>
>> Op za 23 mei 2020 om 18:18 schreef Jo :
>>
>>> In the end, what will be left in the name tag exactly?
>>>
>>> Polyglot
>>>
>>> On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 5:53 PM Peter Elderson 
>>> wrote:
>>>
 I am trying to improve on the name-tag mess in the many hiking/foot
 routes in Nederland. All kinds of information is packed in those
>names. I
 am not doing any cleaning (yet) until all this information can be
>stored in
 proper tags and is handled or scheduled by significant
>renderers/data
 users/tools. There must be reasons for this (ab)use, because it is
>done all
 over the globe.

 It's very common to store - and sometimes  in the
>name
 tag. That's an easy one: we have from=*, via=*, to=*.

 Sometimes a complete description, a comment or a note (.e.g. about
>a
 temporary detour) is added to the name. Easy: we have description=,
>note=*,
 comment=*.

 A ref in the name: store in ref=*.

 Another item is *section number*. This is often used when the route
>is
 split in sections, often according to the sectioning given by the
 operator/website. So firstly it's a sort of reference, secondly its
>an
 ordering and sorting mechanism.
 Sometimes sections have their own name. I see that a lot in
 international (super)routes.

 Any ideas how to do this without (ab)using the name tag? Is there a
 proper tag that springs to mind, or should we invent one?

 Peter Elderson
 ___
 Tagging mailing list
 Tagging@openstreetmap.org
 https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

>>> ___
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>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
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Re: [Tagging] Section numbers in hiking routes

[Jo]

I would say the route name goes on the routemaster relation. That way it's
possible to differentiate in the names of the route relations and make them
more specific. That's probably not what Peter is proposing though.

Jo

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 7:40 PM Tod Fitch  wrote:

> I was under the impression that the consensus was that a route name should
> be in a route relation that holds all the segments and that the segment
> names, if different from the route name, were on the segment.
>
> Has that consensus changed or has my impression been wrong?
>
> Cheers!
> Tod
>
> On May 23, 2020, at 9:41 AM, Peter Elderson  wrote:
>
> Hold on to your hat In the name tag I will store...The Name Of The
> Route!
>
> Op za 23 mei 2020 om 18:18 schreef Jo :
>
>> In the end, what will be left in the name tag exactly?
>>
>> Polyglot
>>
>> On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 5:53 PM Peter Elderson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I am trying to improve on the name-tag mess in the many hiking/foot
>>> routes in Nederland. All kinds of information is packed in those names. I
>>> am not doing any cleaning (yet) until all this information can be stored in
>>> proper tags and is handled or scheduled by significant renderers/data
>>> users/tools. There must be reasons for this (ab)use, because it is done all
>>> over the globe.
>>>
>>> It's very common to store - and sometimes  in the name
>>> tag. That's an easy one: we have from=*, via=*, to=*.
>>>
>>> Sometimes a complete description, a comment or a note (.e.g. about a
>>> temporary detour) is added to the name. Easy: we have description=, note=*,
>>> comment=*.
>>>
>>> A ref in the name: store in ref=*.
>>>
>>> Another item is *section number*. This is often used when the route is
>>> split in sections, often according to the sectioning given by the
>>> operator/website. So firstly it's a sort of reference, secondly its an
>>> ordering and sorting mechanism.
>>> Sometimes sections have their own name. I see that a lot in
>>> international (super)routes.
>>>
>>> Any ideas how to do this without (ab)using the name tag? Is there a
>>> proper tag that springs to mind, or should we invent one?
>>>
>>> Peter Elderson
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
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Re: [Tagging] Section numbers in hiking routes

[Jo]

So in the case of a route that passes through The Netherlands, Belgium and
France, the part in The Netherlands and Flanders will have the same name
(in Dutch)? And the parts in Wallonia and France will have the same name as
well, but in French instead? No indication which country/region they are
passing through?

Jo

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 6:42 PM Peter Elderson  wrote:

> Hold on to your hat In the name tag I will store...The Name Of The
> Route!
>
> Op za 23 mei 2020 om 18:18 schreef Jo :
>
>> In the end, what will be left in the name tag exactly?
>>
>> Polyglot
>>
>> On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 5:53 PM Peter Elderson 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> I am trying to improve on the name-tag mess in the many hiking/foot
>>> routes in Nederland. All kinds of information is packed in those names. I
>>> am not doing any cleaning (yet) until all this information can be stored in
>>> proper tags and is handled or scheduled by significant renderers/data
>>> users/tools. There must be reasons for this (ab)use, because it is done all
>>> over the globe.
>>>
>>> It's very common to store - and sometimes  in the name
>>> tag. That's an easy one: we have from=*, via=*, to=*.
>>>
>>> Sometimes a complete description, a comment or a note (.e.g. about a
>>> temporary detour) is added to the name. Easy: we have description=, note=*,
>>> comment=*.
>>>
>>> A ref in the name: store in ref=*.
>>>
>>> Another item is *section number*. This is often used when the route is
>>> split in sections, often according to the sectioning given by the
>>> operator/website. So firstly it's a sort of reference, secondly its an
>>> ordering and sorting mechanism.
>>> Sometimes sections have their own name. I see that a lot in
>>> international (super)routes.
>>>
>>> Any ideas how to do this without (ab)using the name tag? Is there a
>>> proper tag that springs to mind, or should we invent one?
>>>
>>> Peter Elderson
>>> ___
>>> Tagging mailing list
>>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>>
>> ___
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>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
>
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Re: [Tagging] Section numbers in hiking routes

[Peter Elderson]

Hold on to your hat In the name tag I will store...The Name Of The
Route!

Op za 23 mei 2020 om 18:18 schreef Jo :

> In the end, what will be left in the name tag exactly?
>
> Polyglot
>
> On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 5:53 PM Peter Elderson 
> wrote:
>
>> I am trying to improve on the name-tag mess in the many hiking/foot
>> routes in Nederland. All kinds of information is packed in those names. I
>> am not doing any cleaning (yet) until all this information can be stored in
>> proper tags and is handled or scheduled by significant renderers/data
>> users/tools. There must be reasons for this (ab)use, because it is done all
>> over the globe.
>>
>> It's very common to store - and sometimes  in the name
>> tag. That's an easy one: we have from=*, via=*, to=*.
>>
>> Sometimes a complete description, a comment or a note (.e.g. about a
>> temporary detour) is added to the name. Easy: we have description=, note=*,
>> comment=*.
>>
>> A ref in the name: store in ref=*.
>>
>> Another item is *section number*. This is often used when the route is
>> split in sections, often according to the sectioning given by the
>> operator/website. So firstly it's a sort of reference, secondly its an
>> ordering and sorting mechanism.
>> Sometimes sections have their own name. I see that a lot in international
>> (super)routes.
>>
>> Any ideas how to do this without (ab)using the name tag? Is there a
>> proper tag that springs to mind, or should we invent one?
>>
>> Peter Elderson
>> ___
>> Tagging mailing list
>> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>>
> ___
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Re: [Tagging] Section numbers in hiking routes

[Jo]

In the end, what will be left in the name tag exactly?

Polyglot

On Sat, May 23, 2020 at 5:53 PM Peter Elderson  wrote:

> I am trying to improve on the name-tag mess in the many hiking/foot routes
> in Nederland. All kinds of information is packed in those names. I am not
> doing any cleaning (yet) until all this information can be stored in proper
> tags and is handled or scheduled by significant renderers/data users/tools.
> There must be reasons for this (ab)use, because it is done all over the
> globe.
>
> It's very common to store - and sometimes  in the name tag.
> That's an easy one: we have from=*, via=*, to=*.
>
> Sometimes a complete description, a comment or a note (.e.g. about a
> temporary detour) is added to the name. Easy: we have description=, note=*,
> comment=*.
>
> A ref in the name: store in ref=*.
>
> Another item is *section number*. This is often used when the route is
> split in sections, often according to the sectioning given by the
> operator/website. So firstly it's a sort of reference, secondly its an
> ordering and sorting mechanism.
> Sometimes sections have their own name. I see that a lot in international
> (super)routes.
>
> Any ideas how to do this without (ab)using the name tag? Is there a proper
> tag that springs to mind, or should we invent one?
>
> Peter Elderson
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
>
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[Tagging] Section numbers in hiking routes

[Peter Elderson]

I am trying to improve on the name-tag mess in the many hiking/foot routes
in Nederland. All kinds of information is packed in those names. I am not
doing any cleaning (yet) until all this information can be stored in proper
tags and is handled or scheduled by significant renderers/data users/tools.
There must be reasons for this (ab)use, because it is done all over the
globe.

It's very common to store - and sometimes  in the name tag.
That's an easy one: we have from=*, via=*, to=*.

Sometimes a complete description, a comment or a note (.e.g. about a
temporary detour) is added to the name. Easy: we have description=, note=*,
comment=*.

A ref in the name: store in ref=*.

Another item is *section number*. This is often used when the route is
split in sections, often according to the sectioning given by the
operator/website. So firstly it's a sort of reference, secondly its an
ordering and sorting mechanism.
Sometimes sections have their own name. I see that a lot in international
(super)routes.

Any ideas how to do this without (ab)using the name tag? Is there a proper
tag that springs to mind, or should we invent one?

Peter Elderson
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