Re: [Tagging] Stećci - Bosnian medieval tombstones

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 29 Mar 2017, at 22:33, Michal Fabík  wrote:
> 
> I certainly wouldn't call them tombs, they're just graves (i.e. holes in the 
> ground) with very large gravestones covering them. There is no built 
> structure (like a burial chamber or similar) underneath the stećak.


the structure above the grave (very large tombstone) might make it a tomb even 
in absence of a vault, but I'm not sure.



> 
>> for necropolis there is a site_type for archaeological_site
> 
> I know this, only I was a little worried about the accuracy of such tagging. 
> A typical stećak "necropolis" looks like this: 
> https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Stecci_-_na_Blidinji_je_nekolik_skupin_techto_nahrobku_z_14..jpg
>  - quite different from what the Wiki says about site_type=necropolis (and 
> from the picutre there). I was thinking about something along the lines of 
> site_type=burial_ground.


+1 to burial ground.

cheers,
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Stećci - Bosnian medieval tombstones

[Michal Fabík]

On 29.3.2017 01:11, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:



sent from a phone


On 28 Mar 2017, at 23:28, Michal Fabík  wrote:

historic=tombstone + tombstone=stećak

+ probably the most accurate
- not well established (just one occurrence of historic=tombstone according to 
taginfo.osm.org)
- not sure whether all of them are tombstones



I would probably use this one together with historic:civilization


I got in touch with an archaeologist in Bosnia and he confirmed that all 
the stećci were made as tombstones, so it looks like this approach could 
work. He also said that there's been a documented centuries-old practice 
of moving the stećaks away from their original site (i.e. the grave), 
often to be used as "architectural elements" (he didn't elaborate on 
what exactly that means). It would probably make sense to use something 
like "moved=yes", "original_location=no", "grave=no" etc. to account for 
this. As for historic:civilization=*, there's no general consensus among 
historians as to what the civilization in question should be called. In 
any case, as long as the tombstone is specifically tagged as stećak (or 
stecak?), I think the tag isn't really necessary because all the stećci 
were made by the same civilization.



Just to mention it: there is also a tomb key, but maybe the Stećci aren't tombs.


I certainly wouldn't call them tombs, they're just graves (i.e. holes in 
the ground) with very large gravestones covering them. There is no built 
structure (like a burial chamber or similar) underneath the stećak.



for necropolis there is a site_type for archaeological_site


I know this, only I was a little worried about the accuracy of such 
tagging. A typical stećak "necropolis" looks like this: 
https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Stecci_-_na_Blidinji_je_nekolik_skupin_techto_nahrobku_z_14..jpg 
- quite different from what the Wiki says about site_type=necropolis 
(and from the picutre there). I was thinking about something along the 
lines of site_type=burial_ground.


Regards,

--
Michal

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Stećci - Bosnian medieval tombstones

[Kevin Kenny]

A tomb without a body, built to commemorate dead whose remains lie
elsewhere, is a 'cenotaph'.

There's an earlier, inconclusive, thread on the topic:

https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2016-September/030196.html


On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 5:28 PM, Michal Fabík  wrote:
> Hi,
> some time ago, I was wondering what would be the proper way to tag a stećak
> (plural form stećci), a large monolithic tombstone, often with carved
> inscriptions and/or ornaments, found in Bosnia and neighbouring countries
> (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ste%C4%87ak).
>
> They are usually the shape of a large coffin (though other shapes exist
> too), but they are solid stone, unlike sarcophagi, which really _are_
> coffins, i.e. hollow. They are usually found in groups from a few up to a
> few hundred. The groups of stećci are locally known as necropolises, though
> they don't quite fit the Wiki's definition of a necropolis - "a large
> ancient cemetery with elaborate tomb monuments" - they are not necessarily
> large, they aren't really ancient (they're medieval) and they're hardly
> elaborate monuments - it's just biggish stone blocks strewn randomly on a
> meadow.
>
> Normally, it would probably be enough to tag the necropolis as a whole
> (probably as some sort of a historic=archaeological_site) but like I said,
> sometimes they are isolated and sometimes they have been moved to a another
> location altogether. Furthermore, there are efforts to catalogue them and
> decipher/translate the inscriptions carved into some of them, so it can
> definitely be of interest to some people to know where exactly a particular
> stećak is located.
>
> They are usually described as tombstones though I'm not 100% sure if all of
> them are tombstones, there might be some that served some other
> (ceremonial?) purpose rather that marking an actual grave, but I might be
> wrong. Then there are some that used to mark a grave but were moved to a
> different location (there are some on display in front of a museum in
> Sarajevo and some other places) so they should be tagged as stand-alone
> objects, not as features of graves. The graves themselves aren't
> significant, to my knowledge - most of them are nameless, they aren't
> normally researched/exhumed etc.
>
> I've started a thread on the Bosnian forum
> (https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=56800, in Serbo-Croatian)
> but I only got one answer since the Bosnian community isn't exactly active,
> so I thought I'd ask what you guys think, even though some of you might not
> be familiar with the subject.
>
> So far, I have a couple of ideas in mind:
>
> historic=rune_stone + historic:civilization=*
>
> + both are established tags
> + to a layperson it gives a pretty good idea what to expect
> - they are not rune stones
> - there is no consensus as to what civilization created them, unless we use
> something very generic like "Bosnian_pre-islamic" or similar
>
>
> historic=tombstone + tombstone=stećak
>
> + probably the most accurate
> - not well established (just one occurrence of historic=tombstone according
> to taginfo.osm.org)
> - not sure whether all of them are tombstones
>
> historic=stećak
>
> + straightforward and accurate
> - not established at all
> - hardly anybody knows what a stećak is IRL
> - contains a non-ASCII character, some people might not be bothered to spell
> it properly
>
> historic=stecak
>
> + more user friendly than the above
> - "wrong" spelling - might confuse users who speak the local language, i.e.
> the ones most likely to map them
>
>
> So, any suggestions?
>
> Best regards,
>
> --
> Michal
>
> ___
> Tagging mailing list
> Tagging@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

Re: [Tagging] Stećci - Bosnian medieval tombstones

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 28 Mar 2017, at 23:28, Michal Fabík  wrote:
> 
> historic=tombstone + tombstone=stećak
> 
> + probably the most accurate
> - not well established (just one occurrence of historic=tombstone according 
> to taginfo.osm.org)
> - not sure whether all of them are tombstones


I would probably use this one together with historic:civilization 

Just to mention it: there is also a tomb key, but maybe the Stećci aren't tombs.

for necropolis there is a site_type for archaeological_site

cheers,
Martin 
___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging

[Tagging] Stećci - Bosnian medieval tombstones

[Michal Fabík]

Hi,
some time ago, I was wondering what would be the proper way to tag a 
stećak (plural form stećci), a large monolithic tombstone, often with 
carved inscriptions and/or ornaments, found in Bosnia and neighbouring 
countries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ste%C4%87ak).


They are usually the shape of a large coffin (though other shapes exist 
too), but they are solid stone, unlike sarcophagi, which really _are_ 
coffins, i.e. hollow. They are usually found in groups from a few up to 
a few hundred. The groups of stećci are locally known as necropolises, 
though they don't quite fit the Wiki's definition of a necropolis - "a 
large ancient cemetery with elaborate tomb monuments" - they are not 
necessarily large, they aren't really ancient (they're medieval) and 
they're hardly elaborate monuments - it's just biggish stone blocks 
strewn randomly on a meadow.


Normally, it would probably be enough to tag the necropolis as a whole 
(probably as some sort of a historic=archaeological_site) but like I 
said, sometimes they are isolated and sometimes they have been moved to 
a another location altogether. Furthermore, there are efforts to 
catalogue them and decipher/translate the inscriptions carved into some 
of them, so it can definitely be of interest to some people to know 
where exactly a particular stećak is located.


They are usually described as tombstones though I'm not 100% sure if all 
of them are tombstones, there might be some that served some other 
(ceremonial?) purpose rather that marking an actual grave, but I might 
be wrong. Then there are some that used to mark a grave but were moved 
to a different location (there are some on display in front of a museum 
in Sarajevo and some other places) so they should be tagged as 
stand-alone objects, not as features of graves. The graves themselves 
aren't significant, to my knowledge - most of them are nameless, they 
aren't normally researched/exhumed etc.


I've started a thread on the Bosnian forum 
(https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=56800, in 
Serbo-Croatian) but I only got one answer since the Bosnian community 
isn't exactly active, so I thought I'd ask what you guys think, even 
though some of you might not be familiar with the subject.


So far, I have a couple of ideas in mind:

historic=rune_stone + historic:civilization=*

+ both are established tags
+ to a layperson it gives a pretty good idea what to expect
- they are not rune stones
- there is no consensus as to what civilization created them, unless we 
use something very generic like "Bosnian_pre-islamic" or similar



historic=tombstone + tombstone=stećak

+ probably the most accurate
- not well established (just one occurrence of historic=tombstone 
according to taginfo.osm.org)

- not sure whether all of them are tombstones

historic=stećak

+ straightforward and accurate
- not established at all
- hardly anybody knows what a stećak is IRL
- contains a non-ASCII character, some people might not be bothered to 
spell it properly


historic=stecak

+ more user friendly than the above
- "wrong" spelling - might confuse users who speak the local language, 
i.e. the ones most likely to map them



So, any suggestions?

Best regards,

--
Michal

___
Tagging mailing list
Tagging@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging