Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
On Sun, Apr 26, 2015 at 9:34 AM, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: Sure, but the page currently states that the waterway=river must be placed that way. It could agree with the text if it said Preferably, the way should be drawn along the thalweg or the deepest points of the riverbed. That is, it should be a goal, not a requirement for mapping the river at all. +1 Change the wording to mean should be placed, if possible -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
On 23.04.2015 10:01, Christoph Hormann wrote: Nobody should feel bad about not being able to accurately place the waterway at the right location in some cases but the aim to do this where possible is a sound one. Sure, but the page currently states that the waterway=river must be placed that way. It could agree with the text if it said Preferably, the way should be drawn along the thalweg or the deepest points of the riverbed. That is, it should be a goal, not a requirement for mapping the river at all. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
On Sunday 26 April 2015, Tobias Knerr wrote: Nobody should feel bad about not being able to accurately place the waterway at the right location in some cases but the aim to do this where possible is a sound one. Sure, but the page currently states that the waterway=river must be placed that way. It could agree with the text if it said Preferably, the way should be drawn along the thalweg or the deepest points of the riverbed. That is, it should be a goal, not a requirement for mapping the river at all. The formulation there was somewhat ambiguous. I think it was meant to indicate a way waterway=river is required to be mapped within the waterway=riverbank polygon but not that its location must be exact. I clarified this in the wiki. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
This idea of the linear river way being along the deepest part seems to have been created in this thread. No such 'rule' exists, either in practice, nor in Wiki tagging pages. The normal usage is to place the way along the approximate centre line of the waterway, just as we do with roads. As to the direction, this usually can be determined by watching the water flow, or simply by knowledge of the surrounding topography. There are some problematic cases: 1. Contour canals have no flow. The direction or the way is arbitrary. 2. Canals that pass over summits flow away from the summit reach, so the way must be split into two opposing directions at the point of the feeder reservoir. Likewise at lowest reach between two summits. 3. River deltas often have channels that cross between two branches of the same river. The direction of the way is arbitrary. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
On Thursday 23 April 2015, Malcolm Herring wrote: This idea of the linear river way being along the deepest part seems to have been created in this thread. No such 'rule' exists, either in practice, nor in Wiki tagging pages. couch http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Driverbank#Old_tagging And note this is absolutely not an unreasonable suggestion. There are many rivers with strongly varying water levels where you can during dry season well see where the deepest part of the riverbed is while the riverbank polygon mapped at the median level covers a larger area. To some extent this even applies to central European rivers like the Rhine. You can also often infer this from where the current is strongest. Nobody should feel bad about not being able to accurately place the waterway at the right location in some cases but the aim to do this where possible is a sound one. 3. River deltas often have channels that cross between two branches of the same river. The direction of the way is arbitrary. On the contrary - this is where direction really matters since in contrast to elsewhere you cannot determine it from the river system structure. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
In my experience, rivers, unlike harbors, generally don't have buoys or other markers showing the location of the navigational channel, probably because the flow would be likely to wash them away. On April 21, 2015 1:08:42 AM CDT, Paul Johnson ba...@ursamundi.org wrote: On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:47 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: The location of the deepest channel can change over time, as mudbanks or sandbanks shift position. This is why commercial vessels operating on rivers frequently rely upon a succession of pilots, each familiar with a particular portion of the river. Unless an OSM mapper has surveyed a portion of the river recently with a depth gauge, they would have to rely on possibly-out-of-date information from some other map. At least to the navigable depth, in theory, this can be inferred from navigational markings for anyone familiar with the relevant fixtures, beacons and bouys. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr.___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
On 23/04/2015 03:30, John F. Eldredge wrote: In my experience, rivers, unlike harbors, generally don't have buoys or other markers showing the location of the navigational channel Oh, but they do: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenSeaMap/CEVNI_Lateral_Marks ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 10:47 AM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: The location of the deepest channel can change over time, as mudbanks or sandbanks shift position. This is why commercial vessels operating on rivers frequently rely upon a succession of pilots, each familiar with a particular portion of the river. Unless an OSM mapper has surveyed a portion of the river recently with a depth gauge, they would have to rely on possibly-out-of-date information from some other map. At least to the navigable depth, in theory, this can be inferred from navigational markings for anyone familiar with the relevant fixtures, beacons and bouys. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 06:31:23PM +0200, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: 2015-04-20 18:14 GMT+02:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: IMO you guys are kidding yourselves if you think most mappers actually measure the depth of rivers before drawing in the main stream yes, it is not the typical way we do map, but it is an ideal / a clear definition how it ideally should be. I believe it is so far away from current practice that it would deserve an own tag waterway=deepest_path. Also because in some cases the navigation route may not exactly follow the deepest path. Richard ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
The location of the deepest channel can change over time, as mudbanks or sandbanks shift position. This is why commercial vessels operating on rivers frequently rely upon a succession of pilots, each familiar with a particular portion of the river. Unless an OSM mapper has surveyed a portion of the river recently with a depth gauge, they would have to rely on possibly-out-of-date information from some other map. On April 18, 2015 11:32:49 AM CDT, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: On 13.04.2015 15:06, Torstein Ingebrigtsen Bø wrote: I'm currently importing topological data of Norway to OSM. From the data set we have riverbanks; however, we do not have the deepest middle way as required by the wiki [1]. As the deepest middle way is hard to identify for regular mappers, I would be surprised if many people considered that a strict prerequisite for mapping rivers. So from my point of view, it would be acceptable for your import to automatically generate the way from the riverbank area and upload both the way and area. This is assuming you know the flow direction, which I do consider important. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
IMO you guys are kidding yourselves if you think most mappers actually measure the depth of rivers before drawing in the main stream. That would be nice but it ain't so. Speaking for myself, as someone who has added hundreds of rivers and streams to OSM, there isn't one for which I've actually used real depth data. Cal me carelss but my feeling is, better to get it on the map that waitinguntil I can go there in person and measure such fine details.. Cheers, Dave On Mon, Apr 20, 2015 at 6:47 PM, John F. Eldredge j...@jfeldredge.com wrote: The location of the deepest channel can change over time, as mudbanks or sandbanks shift position. This is why commercial vessels operating on rivers frequently rely upon a succession of pilots, each familiar with a particular portion of the river. Unless an OSM mapper has surveyed a portion of the river recently with a depth gauge, they would have to rely on possibly-out-of-date information from some other map. On April 18, 2015 11:32:49 AM CDT, Tobias Knerr o...@tobias-knerr.de wrote: On 13.04.2015 15:06, Torstein Ingebrigtsen Bø wrote: I'm currently importing topological data of Norway to OSM. From the data set we have riverbanks; however, we do not have the deepest middle way as required by the wiki [1]. As the deepest middle way is hard to identify for regular mappers, I would be surprised if many people considered that a strict prerequisite for mapping rivers. So from my point of view, it would be acceptable for your import to automatically generate the way from the riverbank area and upload both the way and area. This is assuming you know the flow direction, which I do consider important. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com Darkness cannot drive out darkness; only light can do that. Hate cannot drive out hate; only love can do that. -- Martin Luther King, Jr. ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging -- Dave Swarthout Homer, Alaska Chiang Mai, Thailand Travel Blog at http://dswarthout.blogspot.com ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
2015-04-20 18:14 GMT+02:00 Dave Swarthout daveswarth...@gmail.com: IMO you guys are kidding yourselves if you think most mappers actually measure the depth of rivers before drawing in the main stream yes, it is not the typical way we do map, but it is an ideal / a clear definition how it ideally should be. Sometimes you can see the deepest part of a river, e.g. when the aerial imagery was taken in a dry period or you have been there when the river had very few water (and/or if the river is of the kind that mostly has not much water, but does in the spring time when the snow melts, e.g. in the mountains). Cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
On 14.04.2015 15:59, moltonel 3x Combo wrote: Changing topics, I've just stumbled on the wiki on the natural=water, water=river tagging that I wasn't aware of and is supposed to replace waterway=riverbank. 4 years after being approved, it still represents only about 3% of the riverbank tagging. I guess that the it's more uniform and logical argument wasn't compeling enough, and that tagg...@osm.org != osm community... I offer you another explanation: Validator developers may have missed that voting, and therefore they did not implement a deprecated warning. Editor support for the new tags may be missing too. (I don't know, because I use an editor where all tags have to be typed in manually.) It's not documentation that helps spread new tags. It's editors and validators. -- Friedrich K. Volkmann http://www.volki.at/ Adr.: Davidgasse 76-80/14/10, 1100 Wien, Austria ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
[Tagging] Way inside riverbank
Hi, I'm currently importing topological data of Norway to OSM. From the data set we have riverbanks; however, we do not have the deepest middle way as required by the wiki [1]. This middle line is therefore drawn manually. This is a time consuming (and dull) job. For one municipal it takes around 5-10 hours to draw all these lines, in Norway we have 428 municipals. Drawing all these middle lines will slow down the time to import everything dramatical. I am therefore curious of what is the benefits of this line. Is it really necessary or is it a nice to have? Some disadvantages with this middle way are: - The line add redundancy. I guess that many add this line such that it is inside the multipolygon of the riverbank. Doing so the added data is only the direction of the river. (Other tags may be added to the multipolygon.) - Sometimes people draw the line wrong or forget to update it when updating the multipolygon. I have seen middle lines outside of the multipolygon (either inside islands or outside of the multipolygon). This gives false islands and splitting of islands when rendered. - A similar way can be generated, if direction and deepest point is not required. This comes as a fact of the first point and removes the previously mentioned problem. - For routing purposes this is not needed. (I have not seen any practical marine navigation/routing implementations yet, either.) Routing algorithms may also represent a riverbank as a node (or multiple nodes). The same problem occurs for lakes where it is not required to have a middle way for routing. - The direction of the river is seldom used. The direction of a river is seldom (or never?) rendered in any map. It is implicitly shown (e.g., by contour lines). - Specifically for the import of Kartverket N50 [2], this requirement is slowing down the import process dramatical and import of other data of more current value are delayed. This is therefore also a question of prioritizing data to be imported. I therefore propose to make this middle way in riverbanks recommended (when the deepest way is known), not required. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Driverbank http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Driverbank#Old_tagging [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/N50_import_(Norway) Best regards, Torstein I. Bø tibnor ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
How do you know the direction of water flow if you don't have the way? Janko uto, 14. tra 2015. 11:45 Torstein Ingebrigtsen Bø torstein...@gmail.com je napisao: Hi, I'm currently importing topological data of Norway to OSM. From the data set we have riverbanks; however, we do not have the deepest middle way as required by the wiki [1]. This middle line is therefore drawn manually. This is a time consuming (and dull) job. For one municipal it takes around 5-10 hours to draw all these lines, in Norway we have 428 municipals. Drawing all these middle lines will slow down the time to import everything dramatical. I am therefore curious of what is the benefits of this line. Is it really necessary or is it a nice to have? Some disadvantages with this middle way are: - The line add redundancy. I guess that many add this line such that it is inside the multipolygon of the riverbank. Doing so the added data is only the direction of the river. (Other tags may be added to the multipolygon.) - Sometimes people draw the line wrong or forget to update it when updating the multipolygon. I have seen middle lines outside of the multipolygon (either inside islands or outside of the multipolygon). This gives false islands and splitting of islands when rendered. - A similar way can be generated, if direction and deepest point is not required. This comes as a fact of the first point and removes the previously mentioned problem. - For routing purposes this is not needed. (I have not seen any practical marine navigation/routing implementations yet, either.) Routing algorithms may also represent a riverbank as a node (or multiple nodes). The same problem occurs for lakes where it is not required to have a middle way for routing. - The direction of the river is seldom used. The direction of a river is seldom (or never?) rendered in any map. It is implicitly shown (e.g., by contour lines). - Specifically for the import of Kartverket N50 [2], this requirement is slowing down the import process dramatical and import of other data of more current value are delayed. This is therefore also a question of prioritizing data to be imported. I therefore propose to make this middle way in riverbanks recommended (when the deepest way is known), not required. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Driverbank http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Driverbank#Old_tagging [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/N50_import_(Norway) Best regards, Torstein I. Bø tibnor ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
On Monday 13 April 2015, Torstein Ingebrigtsen Bø wrote: Hi, I'm currently importing topological data of Norway to OSM. From the data set we have riverbanks; however, we do not have the deepest middle way as required by the wiki [1]. This middle line is therefore drawn manually. This is a time consuming (and dull) job. For one municipal it takes around 5-10 hours to draw all these lines, in Norway we have 428 municipals. Drawing all these middle lines will slow down the time to import everything dramatical. I am therefore curious of what is the benefits of this line. Is it really necessary or is it a nice to have? It is the other way round - the riverbank polygon is optional and 'nice to have'. The waterway line is what actually defines a river in OSM, it also gets the name tag and other attributes. The primary reason for this is to map the water flow structure. Also it is much easier to verify and fix structural errors in waterway line mapping than for water polygons. Generating a waterway line when you only have polygons is fairly simple via straight skeletons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_skeleton) If the source data set does not contain continuous line features for rivers generating those should be part of import preparation. And i disagree with Janko here - if the source data does not contain certain information that is required according to OSM mapping conventions you should not import the data unless you produce the information in some way (either through manual mapping, computing the missing data or getting it from other sources). Otherwise the data becomes dead mass in the OSM database. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
Am 14.04.2015 um 12:52 schrieb Christoph Hormann: On Monday 13 April 2015, Torstein Ingebrigtsen Bø wrote: Hi, I'm currently importing topological data of Norway to OSM. From the data set we have riverbanks; however, we do not have the deepest middle way as required by the wiki [1]. This middle line is therefore drawn manually. This is a time consuming (and dull) job. For one municipal it takes around 5-10 hours to draw all these lines, in Norway we have 428 municipals. Drawing all these middle lines will slow down the time to import everything dramatical. I am therefore curious of what is the benefits of this line. Is it really necessary or is it a nice to have? It is the other way round - the riverbank polygon is optional and 'nice to have'. The waterway line is what actually defines a river in OSM, it also gets the name tag and other attributes. The primary reason for this is to map the water flow structure. Also it is much easier to verify and fix structural errors in waterway line mapping than for water polygons. Generating a waterway line when you only have polygons is fairly simple via straight skeletons (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straight_skeleton) If the source data set does not contain continuous line features for rivers generating those should be part of import preparation. And i disagree with Janko here - if the source data does not contain certain information that is required according to OSM mapping conventions you should not import the data unless you produce the information in some way (either through manual mapping, computing the missing data or getting it from other sources). Otherwise the data becomes dead mass in the OSM database. +1 Thanks for the wording. Cheers fly ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
Now I see you said that the direction is not necesarry. I can't agree with this, it's a pretty important fact. Anyway, I don't see a problem with you just importing incomplete data and waiting for someone else down the line to complete the ways inside areas. Janko. uto, 14. tra 2015. 11:48 Janko Mihelić jan...@gmail.com je napisao: How do you know the direction of water flow if you don't have the way? Janko uto, 14. tra 2015. 11:45 Torstein Ingebrigtsen Bø torstein...@gmail.com je napisao: Hi, I'm currently importing topological data of Norway to OSM. From the data set we have riverbanks; however, we do not have the deepest middle way as required by the wiki [1]. This middle line is therefore drawn manually. This is a time consuming (and dull) job. For one municipal it takes around 5-10 hours to draw all these lines, in Norway we have 428 municipals. Drawing all these middle lines will slow down the time to import everything dramatical. I am therefore curious of what is the benefits of this line. Is it really necessary or is it a nice to have? Some disadvantages with this middle way are: - The line add redundancy. I guess that many add this line such that it is inside the multipolygon of the riverbank. Doing so the added data is only the direction of the river. (Other tags may be added to the multipolygon.) - Sometimes people draw the line wrong or forget to update it when updating the multipolygon. I have seen middle lines outside of the multipolygon (either inside islands or outside of the multipolygon). This gives false islands and splitting of islands when rendered. - A similar way can be generated, if direction and deepest point is not required. This comes as a fact of the first point and removes the previously mentioned problem. - For routing purposes this is not needed. (I have not seen any practical marine navigation/routing implementations yet, either.) Routing algorithms may also represent a riverbank as a node (or multiple nodes). The same problem occurs for lakes where it is not required to have a middle way for routing. - The direction of the river is seldom used. The direction of a river is seldom (or never?) rendered in any map. It is implicitly shown (e.g., by contour lines). - Specifically for the import of Kartverket N50 [2], this requirement is slowing down the import process dramatical and import of other data of more current value are delayed. This is therefore also a question of prioritizing data to be imported. I therefore propose to make this middle way in riverbanks recommended (when the deepest way is known), not required. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Driverbank http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:waterway%3Driverbank#Old_tagging [2] https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Import/Catalogue/N50_import_(Norway) Best regards, Torstein I. Bø tibnor ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Way inside riverbank
On 14/04/2015, Christoph Hormann chris_horm...@gmx.de wrote: It is the other way round - the riverbank polygon is optional and 'nice to have'. The waterway line is what actually defines a river in OSM, it also gets the name tag and other attributes. Yes, this is the same principle that gives us highway=* vs area:highway=* (http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Street_area). Note that as a result, the riverbank polygon doesn't need a name=*, because that is taken from the linear river way instead. Changing topics, I've just stumbled on the wiki on the natural=water, water=river tagging that I wasn't aware of and is supposed to replace waterway=riverbank. 4 years after being approved, it still represents only about 3% of the riverbank tagging. I guess that the it's more uniform and logical argument wasn't compeling enough, and that tagg...@osm.org != osm community... ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
