Re: [Tagging] Stećci - Bosnian medieval tombstones
sent from a phone > On 29 Mar 2017, at 22:33, Michal Fabíkwrote: > > I certainly wouldn't call them tombs, they're just graves (i.e. holes in the > ground) with very large gravestones covering them. There is no built > structure (like a burial chamber or similar) underneath the stećak. the structure above the grave (very large tombstone) might make it a tomb even in absence of a vault, but I'm not sure. > >> for necropolis there is a site_type for archaeological_site > > I know this, only I was a little worried about the accuracy of such tagging. > A typical stećak "necropolis" looks like this: > https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Stecci_-_na_Blidinji_je_nekolik_skupin_techto_nahrobku_z_14..jpg > - quite different from what the Wiki says about site_type=necropolis (and > from the picutre there). I was thinking about something along the lines of > site_type=burial_ground. +1 to burial ground. cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Stećci - Bosnian medieval tombstones
On 29.3.2017 01:11, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: sent from a phone On 28 Mar 2017, at 23:28, Michal Fabíkwrote: historic=tombstone + tombstone=stećak + probably the most accurate - not well established (just one occurrence of historic=tombstone according to taginfo.osm.org) - not sure whether all of them are tombstones I would probably use this one together with historic:civilization I got in touch with an archaeologist in Bosnia and he confirmed that all the stećci were made as tombstones, so it looks like this approach could work. He also said that there's been a documented centuries-old practice of moving the stećaks away from their original site (i.e. the grave), often to be used as "architectural elements" (he didn't elaborate on what exactly that means). It would probably make sense to use something like "moved=yes", "original_location=no", "grave=no" etc. to account for this. As for historic:civilization=*, there's no general consensus among historians as to what the civilization in question should be called. In any case, as long as the tombstone is specifically tagged as stećak (or stecak?), I think the tag isn't really necessary because all the stećci were made by the same civilization. Just to mention it: there is also a tomb key, but maybe the Stećci aren't tombs. I certainly wouldn't call them tombs, they're just graves (i.e. holes in the ground) with very large gravestones covering them. There is no built structure (like a burial chamber or similar) underneath the stećak. for necropolis there is a site_type for archaeological_site I know this, only I was a little worried about the accuracy of such tagging. A typical stećak "necropolis" looks like this: https://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/8/87/Stecci_-_na_Blidinji_je_nekolik_skupin_techto_nahrobku_z_14..jpg - quite different from what the Wiki says about site_type=necropolis (and from the picutre there). I was thinking about something along the lines of site_type=burial_ground. Regards, -- Michal ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Stećci - Bosnian medieval tombstones
A tomb without a body, built to commemorate dead whose remains lie elsewhere, is a 'cenotaph'. There's an earlier, inconclusive, thread on the topic: https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/tagging/2016-September/030196.html On Tue, Mar 28, 2017 at 5:28 PM, Michal Fabíkwrote: > Hi, > some time ago, I was wondering what would be the proper way to tag a stećak > (plural form stećci), a large monolithic tombstone, often with carved > inscriptions and/or ornaments, found in Bosnia and neighbouring countries > (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ste%C4%87ak). > > They are usually the shape of a large coffin (though other shapes exist > too), but they are solid stone, unlike sarcophagi, which really _are_ > coffins, i.e. hollow. They are usually found in groups from a few up to a > few hundred. The groups of stećci are locally known as necropolises, though > they don't quite fit the Wiki's definition of a necropolis - "a large > ancient cemetery with elaborate tomb monuments" - they are not necessarily > large, they aren't really ancient (they're medieval) and they're hardly > elaborate monuments - it's just biggish stone blocks strewn randomly on a > meadow. > > Normally, it would probably be enough to tag the necropolis as a whole > (probably as some sort of a historic=archaeological_site) but like I said, > sometimes they are isolated and sometimes they have been moved to a another > location altogether. Furthermore, there are efforts to catalogue them and > decipher/translate the inscriptions carved into some of them, so it can > definitely be of interest to some people to know where exactly a particular > stećak is located. > > They are usually described as tombstones though I'm not 100% sure if all of > them are tombstones, there might be some that served some other > (ceremonial?) purpose rather that marking an actual grave, but I might be > wrong. Then there are some that used to mark a grave but were moved to a > different location (there are some on display in front of a museum in > Sarajevo and some other places) so they should be tagged as stand-alone > objects, not as features of graves. The graves themselves aren't > significant, to my knowledge - most of them are nameless, they aren't > normally researched/exhumed etc. > > I've started a thread on the Bosnian forum > (https://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=56800, in Serbo-Croatian) > but I only got one answer since the Bosnian community isn't exactly active, > so I thought I'd ask what you guys think, even though some of you might not > be familiar with the subject. > > So far, I have a couple of ideas in mind: > > historic=rune_stone + historic:civilization=* > > + both are established tags > + to a layperson it gives a pretty good idea what to expect > - they are not rune stones > - there is no consensus as to what civilization created them, unless we use > something very generic like "Bosnian_pre-islamic" or similar > > > historic=tombstone + tombstone=stećak > > + probably the most accurate > - not well established (just one occurrence of historic=tombstone according > to taginfo.osm.org) > - not sure whether all of them are tombstones > > historic=stećak > > + straightforward and accurate > - not established at all > - hardly anybody knows what a stećak is IRL > - contains a non-ASCII character, some people might not be bothered to spell > it properly > > historic=stecak > > + more user friendly than the above > - "wrong" spelling - might confuse users who speak the local language, i.e. > the ones most likely to map them > > > So, any suggestions? > > Best regards, > > -- > Michal > > ___ > Tagging mailing list > Tagging@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging
Re: [Tagging] Stećci - Bosnian medieval tombstones
sent from a phone > On 28 Mar 2017, at 23:28, Michal Fabíkwrote: > > historic=tombstone + tombstone=stećak > > + probably the most accurate > - not well established (just one occurrence of historic=tombstone according > to taginfo.osm.org) > - not sure whether all of them are tombstones I would probably use this one together with historic:civilization Just to mention it: there is also a tomb key, but maybe the Stećci aren't tombs. for necropolis there is a site_type for archaeological_site cheers, Martin ___ Tagging mailing list Tagging@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/tagging