Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

2019-04-16 Thread bkil
Thank you for the links. Note that the page about the selling options
raises more questions than it answers (how common are the listed
options?). While it is incidental that auction houses may also be
equipped with a stockyard if they also hold livestock auctions, this
is not a necessity for some of the options. Although, I acknowledge
that the few USA livestock "market" POI I've checked in OSM were
placed near barns by farm owners, so calling them "auction houses"
seem a bit stretch.

It looks like we are going to be having separate tagging conventions
for livestock auctions compared to livestock markets, as it would
probably not be comfortable for mappers in the USA and Australia to
add auction=yes to every livestock auctioning marketplace without
presets.

The working of a common market is different from an auction house. In
the former, the seller bring a few of their own home produce, remains
at their table all day long, waiting for potential customers and
working with average prices. This method can work even in case of very
low attendance, as unsold items could be brought to market on the next
day as well. While auctioning of items can be a much quicker
undertaking, especially for big producers having a large number of
items for sale.

From the viewpoint of a buyer, you can come to the marketplace at any
time when it is open to purchase a given good, while you will need to
attend an auction according to a fixed schedule if you want to get
something, although at the end of the day, you may leave empty handed.

I don't feel strongly about the exact tags we will use for this
purpose, although putting livestock auctions below the general concept
describing auction houses that can auction various things can have its
advantages. For example:
amenity=auction_house + auction=livestock;grain
amenity=auction + auction=livestock;grain
I'm not sure what other kind of merchandise you sell through auctions,
the most common ones around here deal with vehicles, antiques, art,
jewelry or real estate.

Here's the alternative:
amenity=livestock_auction
The problem with this one is that I have a feeling that mappers would
try to abuse it by typing livestock_market by choice or by accident,
however that is a separate concept in other parts of the world.

As hinted earlier, most towns around here hold frequent livestock
markets ("állatpiac") at a fixed place similar to how common markets
("piac") are being held on certain days. For smaller communities and
less common livestock, livestock trade shows (fairs,
"állatbörze"/"állatvásár") are being organized in various regions,
sometimes on areas dedicated for this purpose, while at other places
on common grounds. On both of these, haggling is the common purchase
method, not auctioning.

According to our tax office, we also have a legal category for
livestock auctions ("állatárverés"), although they seem to be rarely
held.

This is how a livestock market/fair looks like:
https://www.programturizmus.hu/ajanlat-dunafoldvari-orszagos-allat-es-kirakodovasar.html
https://www.szoljon.hu/cimke/allatvasar/

Here's how common they are, although many do not possess online presence:
https://www.programturizmus.hu/ajanlat-allatvasar.html
http://www.vasarokfesztivalok.eoldal.hu/cikkek/orszagos-vasarok--a---k-/

According to Wikipedia and personal experience, It is customary to
classify marketplaces by function:
marketplace=livestock/antique/farmers/fish/flea/flower/craft

I feel that farmers' market, fish market and crafts market are related
and may perhaps be combined into a single category of "producers'
market", but do share what you think about this. This term is mostly
used in connection with farmer's (and artisanal handicraft) markets in
Hungary, as fish markets are rare, but we have a lot from every other
category.

On Tue, Apr 16, 2019 at 1:47 AM Graeme Fitzpatrick
 wrote:
>
>
> On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 at 06:52, bkil  wrote:
>>
>> Warin did not mention how they are purchased, i.e., whether an auction
>> is being held
>
>
> Yep, as mentioned previously, livestock are (almost ?) always sold via 
> auction. Have a look at https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2082183102010269 
> which shows a little bit of the auction process in the background.
>
> Another description of it is: 
> http://www.mareebasaleyards.com.au/index.php?option=com_content=article=53:purchase=31:general=46
>
>>
>> This sounds like a different feature:
>> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stockyard
>> "(US) An enclosed yard, with pens, sheds etc. or stables, where
>> livestock is kept temporarily before being slaughtered, treated, sold,
>> or shipped etc."
>
>
> Yes, that's a yard where stock is held. A sales yard is like this 
> http://www.dalbyregionalsaleyards.com.au/about/ which is broadly similar, but 
> not quite the same.
>
>> I'm still looking for the answer regarding the ratio of auction vs.
>> haggling in USA livestock markets/auctions,
>
>
> Not easy to find, but here's some info: 
> 

Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

2019-04-15 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Tue, 16 Apr 2019 at 06:52, bkil  wrote:

> Warin did not mention how they are purchased, i.e., whether an auction
> is being held


Yep, as mentioned previously, livestock are (almost ?) always sold via
auction. Have a look at
https://www.facebook.com/watch/?v=2082183102010269 which
shows a little bit of the auction process in the background.

Another description of it is:
http://www.mareebasaleyards.com.au/index.php?option=com_content=article=53:purchase=31:general=46


> This sounds like a different feature:
> https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stockyard
> "(US) An enclosed yard, with pens, sheds etc. or stables, where
> livestock is kept temporarily before being slaughtered, treated, sold,
> or shipped etc."
>

Yes, that's a yard where stock is held. A sales yard is like this
http://www.dalbyregionalsaleyards.com.au/about/ which is broadly similar,
but not quite the same.

I'm still looking for the answer regarding the ratio of auction vs.
> haggling in USA livestock markets/auctions,


Not easy to find, but here's some info:
https://www.farmanddairy.com/news/how-to-understand-the-livestock-markets/308078.html
which seems to suggest that most are sold by auction?

Australian info says the same thing:
https://www.mla.com.au/research-and-development/preparing-for-market/selling-options/

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

2019-04-15 Thread Warin

Typically these are auction sales.


On 16/04/19 06:57, Kevin Kenny wrote:

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:52 PM bkil  wrote:

Compared to marketplaces, I think stockyards would be interesting to a
lot less map users (probably only to contracted partners who regularly
bring in livestock).

Not to mention anyone who lives downwind!


Yes. Along with sewage treatment for smell.
But the waiting animal cries from abattoirs is more pervasive ... not a good 
place to camp.
Smells can drive away mozzies so they can be of benefit .. just eat somewhere 
else!


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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

2019-04-15 Thread Kevin Kenny
On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 4:52 PM bkil  wrote:
> Compared to marketplaces, I think stockyards would be interesting to a
> lot less map users (probably only to contracted partners who regularly
> bring in livestock).

Not to mention anyone who lives downwind!

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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

2019-04-15 Thread bkil
Warin did not mention how they are purchased, i.e., whether an auction
is being held, or if only market haggling is being done. Assuming the
latter, what has been said is still consistent with
amenity=marketplace + marketplace=livestock.

This sounds like a different feature:
https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/stockyard
"(US) An enclosed yard, with pens, sheds etc. or stables, where
livestock is kept temporarily before being slaughtered, treated, sold,
or shipped etc."

Compared to marketplaces, I think stockyards would be interesting to a
lot less map users (probably only to contracted partners who regularly
bring in livestock).

I'm still looking for the answer regarding the ratio of auction vs.
haggling in USA livestock markets/auctions, so we can come up with
tags suiting their use cases as well.

On Mon, Apr 15, 2019 at 10:16 AM Tony Shield  wrote:
>
> Hi
>
> You seem to be describing a stockyard that is associated with an
> auction. Could these be relevant starters for tags?
>
> Tony
>
> On 15/04/2019 00:23, Warin wrote:
> > In Australia commercial livestock (sheep, cattle) are sold through
> > these livestock markets.
> >
> > They may be transported for several days to get to the market, rested
> > there before sale to recover from their trip.
> >
> > As such the market can be large with feeding etc.
> >
> > Once sold they are then transported again, possibly overseas.
> >
> > https://www.abc.net.au/cm/rimage/10839250-3x2-large.jpg?v=2
> >
> > https://www.abc.net.au/cm/rimage/10839176-3x2-large.jpg?v=2
> >
> > I do not see them as 'shops'... in the typical physical sense.
> >
> >
> > On 14/04/19 17:51, bkil wrote:
> >> In Hungary, market auctions do not exist. Instead you go to the
> >> livestock market, purchase some chicks, then go to the producers'
> >> market to grab some grain for them. Many markets are open to a little
> >> haggling, though.
> >>
> >> We de have online auctions and also some official ones related to
> >> liquidation or taxation for example, but vehicles and machinery are
> >> much more common to pop up on these than livestock, and they are not a
> >> permanent feature anyway.
> >>
> >> What ratio of livestock purchases are executed through auctions in the
> >> USA? If not a majority, I'd recommend we stay with amenity=marketplace
> >> and introduce a new tag for auction=yes (or specify the kind of
> >> auction here). This is also assuming that livestock markets commonly
> >> have the word "market" in their name. Can you always take home the
> >> livestock you have purchased, or are these organized at distant
> >> auction houses, having the goods transported later on to the winner?
> >> Maybe we need to come up with a tag for this as well (delivery=only?).
> >>
> >> If livestock auctions are the norm there, we may introduce a new tag
> >> for this, though shop=auction + auction=livestock isn't that far off
> >> in this case. What else is commonly auctioned there? Is it common for
> >> agricultural supplies as well, like pesticide, fertilizer, seed, tools
> >> or machinery?
> >>
> >> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auction#Common_uses
> >>
> >> On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 5:35 AM Joseph Eisenberg
> >>  wrote:
> >>> I saw that proposal, but it seems to be discussing auction houses that
> >>> sell goods from estates, or collectibles, rather than a commodity
> >>> auction.
> >>>
> >>> For a livestock auction, I would suggest using amenity=auction or
> >>> amenity=auction_house with auction=livestock.
> >>>
> >>> But there do seem to be some marketplaces where livestock is sold via
> >>> general negotiation in Asia, eg. here in Indonesia we had a
> >>> marketplace called "Pasar Sapi" or "Cattle Market" which mainly sold
> >>> fruits and vegetables, but occasionally had cattle or goats for sale.
> >>> And the marketplace in my town here in New Guinea always has pigs and
> >>> chickens for sale (live), price negotiable but not auctioned.
> >>>
> >>> If there are cases like this, amenity=marketplace +
> >>> marketplace=livestock could work (assuming it is primarily a livestock
> >>> market).
> >>>
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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

2019-04-15 Thread Tony Shield

Hi

You seem to be describing a stockyard that is associated with an 
auction. Could these be relevant starters for tags?


Tony

On 15/04/2019 00:23, Warin wrote:
In Australia commercial livestock (sheep, cattle) are sold through 
these livestock markets.


They may be transported for several days to get to the market, rested 
there before sale to recover from their trip.


As such the market can be large with feeding etc.

Once sold they are then transported again, possibly overseas.

https://www.abc.net.au/cm/rimage/10839250-3x2-large.jpg?v=2

https://www.abc.net.au/cm/rimage/10839176-3x2-large.jpg?v=2

I do not see them as 'shops'... in the typical physical sense.


On 14/04/19 17:51, bkil wrote:

In Hungary, market auctions do not exist. Instead you go to the
livestock market, purchase some chicks, then go to the producers'
market to grab some grain for them. Many markets are open to a little
haggling, though.

We de have online auctions and also some official ones related to
liquidation or taxation for example, but vehicles and machinery are
much more common to pop up on these than livestock, and they are not a
permanent feature anyway.

What ratio of livestock purchases are executed through auctions in the
USA? If not a majority, I'd recommend we stay with amenity=marketplace
and introduce a new tag for auction=yes (or specify the kind of
auction here). This is also assuming that livestock markets commonly
have the word "market" in their name. Can you always take home the
livestock you have purchased, or are these organized at distant
auction houses, having the goods transported later on to the winner?
Maybe we need to come up with a tag for this as well (delivery=only?).

If livestock auctions are the norm there, we may introduce a new tag
for this, though shop=auction + auction=livestock isn't that far off
in this case. What else is commonly auctioned there? Is it common for
agricultural supplies as well, like pesticide, fertilizer, seed, tools
or machinery?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auction#Common_uses

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 5:35 AM Joseph Eisenberg
 wrote:

I saw that proposal, but it seems to be discussing auction houses that
sell goods from estates, or collectibles, rather than a commodity
auction.

For a livestock auction, I would suggest using amenity=auction or
amenity=auction_house with auction=livestock.

But there do seem to be some marketplaces where livestock is sold via
general negotiation in Asia, eg. here in Indonesia we had a
marketplace called "Pasar Sapi" or "Cattle Market" which mainly sold
fruits and vegetables, but occasionally had cattle or goats for sale.
And the marketplace in my town here in New Guinea always has pigs and
chickens for sale (live), price negotiable but not auctioned.

If there are cases like this, amenity=marketplace +
marketplace=livestock could work (assuming it is primarily a livestock
market).

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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

2019-04-14 Thread Warin

In Australia commercial livestock (sheep, cattle) are sold through these 
livestock markets.

They may be transported for several days to get to the market, rested there 
before sale to recover from their trip.

As such the market can be large with feeding etc.

Once sold they are then transported again, possibly overseas.

https://www.abc.net.au/cm/rimage/10839250-3x2-large.jpg?v=2

https://www.abc.net.au/cm/rimage/10839176-3x2-large.jpg?v=2

I do not see them as 'shops'... in the typical physical sense.


On 14/04/19 17:51, bkil wrote:

In Hungary, market auctions do not exist. Instead you go to the
livestock market, purchase some chicks, then go to the producers'
market to grab some grain for them. Many markets are open to a little
haggling, though.

We de have online auctions and also some official ones related to
liquidation or taxation for example, but vehicles and machinery are
much more common to pop up on these than livestock, and they are not a
permanent feature anyway.

What ratio of livestock purchases are executed through auctions in the
USA? If not a majority, I'd recommend we stay with amenity=marketplace
and introduce a new tag for auction=yes (or specify the kind of
auction here). This is also assuming that livestock markets commonly
have the word "market" in their name. Can you always take home the
livestock you have purchased, or are these organized at distant
auction houses, having the goods transported later on to the winner?
Maybe we need to come up with a tag for this as well (delivery=only?).

If livestock auctions are the norm there, we may introduce a new tag
for this, though shop=auction + auction=livestock isn't that far off
in this case. What else is commonly auctioned there? Is it common for
agricultural supplies as well, like pesticide, fertilizer, seed, tools
or machinery?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auction#Common_uses

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 5:35 AM Joseph Eisenberg
 wrote:

I saw that proposal, but it seems to be discussing auction houses that
sell goods from estates, or collectibles, rather than a commodity
auction.

For a livestock auction, I would suggest using amenity=auction or
amenity=auction_house with auction=livestock.

But there do seem to be some marketplaces where livestock is sold via
general negotiation in Asia, eg. here in Indonesia we had a
marketplace called "Pasar Sapi" or "Cattle Market" which mainly sold
fruits and vegetables, but occasionally had cattle or goats for sale.
And the marketplace in my town here in New Guinea always has pigs and
chickens for sale (live), price negotiable but not auctioned.

If there are cases like this, amenity=marketplace +
marketplace=livestock could work (assuming it is primarily a livestock
market).

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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

2019-04-14 Thread bkil
In Hungary, market auctions do not exist. Instead you go to the
livestock market, purchase some chicks, then go to the producers'
market to grab some grain for them. Many markets are open to a little
haggling, though.

We de have online auctions and also some official ones related to
liquidation or taxation for example, but vehicles and machinery are
much more common to pop up on these than livestock, and they are not a
permanent feature anyway.

What ratio of livestock purchases are executed through auctions in the
USA? If not a majority, I'd recommend we stay with amenity=marketplace
and introduce a new tag for auction=yes (or specify the kind of
auction here). This is also assuming that livestock markets commonly
have the word "market" in their name. Can you always take home the
livestock you have purchased, or are these organized at distant
auction houses, having the goods transported later on to the winner?
Maybe we need to come up with a tag for this as well (delivery=only?).

If livestock auctions are the norm there, we may introduce a new tag
for this, though shop=auction + auction=livestock isn't that far off
in this case. What else is commonly auctioned there? Is it common for
agricultural supplies as well, like pesticide, fertilizer, seed, tools
or machinery?

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Auction#Common_uses

On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 5:35 AM Joseph Eisenberg
 wrote:
>
> I saw that proposal, but it seems to be discussing auction houses that
> sell goods from estates, or collectibles, rather than a commodity
> auction.
>
> For a livestock auction, I would suggest using amenity=auction or
> amenity=auction_house with auction=livestock.
>
> But there do seem to be some marketplaces where livestock is sold via
> general negotiation in Asia, eg. here in Indonesia we had a
> marketplace called "Pasar Sapi" or "Cattle Market" which mainly sold
> fruits and vegetables, but occasionally had cattle or goats for sale.
> And the marketplace in my town here in New Guinea always has pigs and
> chickens for sale (live), price negotiable but not auctioned.
>
> If there are cases like this, amenity=marketplace +
> marketplace=livestock could work (assuming it is primarily a livestock
> market).
>
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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

2019-04-13 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
I saw that proposal, but it seems to be discussing auction houses that
sell goods from estates, or collectibles, rather than a commodity
auction.

For a livestock auction, I would suggest using amenity=auction or
amenity=auction_house with auction=livestock.

But there do seem to be some marketplaces where livestock is sold via
general negotiation in Asia, eg. here in Indonesia we had a
marketplace called "Pasar Sapi" or "Cattle Market" which mainly sold
fruits and vegetables, but occasionally had cattle or goats for sale.
And the marketplace in my town here in New Guinea always has pigs and
chickens for sale (live), price negotiable but not auctioned.

If there are cases like this, amenity=marketplace +
marketplace=livestock could work (assuming it is primarily a livestock
market).

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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

2019-04-13 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Sun, 14 Apr 2019 at 11:40, Joseph Eisenberg 
wrote:

> In the USA these often operate as auctions,
>

I think every livestock sale, anywhere, is done as an auction-type sale,
with the particular animal / whole pen going to the highest bidder? (at
least everyone I've seen, either in person or on TV / movies has)

but shop=auction is rarely used and doesn’t seem right.
>

On that subject, what do we call an auction centre?

Just had a search & the only reference I can find to auctioning is a 2012
proposal, which apparently hasn't been touched since?

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Auctioneer

Interestingly enough, that also refers to livestock!

Thanks

Graeme
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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

2019-04-13 Thread Joseph Eisenberg
In the USA these often operate as auctions, but shop=auction is rarely used
and doesn’t seem right.


On Sun, Apr 14, 2019 at 4:45 AM bkil  wrote:

> I also have a need for this, so please share what scheme you come up
> with, or you could even submit a proposal. I recommend this one:
>
> amenity=marketplace + marketplace=livestock +
> livestock=cattle;poultry;pig + opening_hours
>
> My second guess would be to use produce=cattle;poultry;pig, although
> that does not convey that we are talking about living creatures.
>
> If a farmers' market is also taking place in the same area (and it is
> not possible to map it separately), it is possible to add that as
> well:
>
> amenity=marketplace + marketplace=livestock;farmers +
> livestock=cattle;poultry;pig + opening_hours
>
> We'd probably need to come up for a naming to use on a "common",
> non-farmers' market as well, this could be marketplace=common or
> mixed, and it should be implied by default.
>
> On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:48 AM Martin Koppenhoefer
>  wrote:
> >
> >
> >
> > sent from a phone
> >
> > On 11. Apr 2019, at 09:27, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> >
> > Cattle Market, or Livestock Market are the British terms for these.
> >
> >
> >
> > what about the key, amenity? shop?
> > man_made?
> >
> > “building” is about the building, not the feature (function), landuse is
> a property of the land. From the above I would go with amenity, similar to
> amenity=marketplace which by its current generic definition might also
> apply: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dmarketplace
> > (if you decide to use this, it might make sense to add a subtag, e.g.
> market=livestock, generally I would see a difference if we can agree that
> marketplace is aiming at private end customers)
> >
> > Cheers, Martin
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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

2019-04-13 Thread bkil
I also have a need for this, so please share what scheme you come up
with, or you could even submit a proposal. I recommend this one:

amenity=marketplace + marketplace=livestock +
livestock=cattle;poultry;pig + opening_hours

My second guess would be to use produce=cattle;poultry;pig, although
that does not convey that we are talking about living creatures.

If a farmers' market is also taking place in the same area (and it is
not possible to map it separately), it is possible to add that as
well:

amenity=marketplace + marketplace=livestock;farmers +
livestock=cattle;poultry;pig + opening_hours

We'd probably need to come up for a naming to use on a "common",
non-farmers' market as well, this could be marketplace=common or
mixed, and it should be implied by default.

On Fri, Apr 12, 2019 at 9:48 AM Martin Koppenhoefer
 wrote:
>
>
>
> sent from a phone
>
> On 11. Apr 2019, at 09:27, Philip Barnes  wrote:
>
> Cattle Market, or Livestock Market are the British terms for these.
>
>
>
> what about the key, amenity? shop?
> man_made?
>
> “building” is about the building, not the feature (function), landuse is a 
> property of the land. From the above I would go with amenity, similar to 
> amenity=marketplace which by its current generic definition might also apply: 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dmarketplace
> (if you decide to use this, it might make sense to add a subtag, e.g. 
> market=livestock, generally I would see a difference if we can agree that 
> marketplace is aiming at private end customers)
>
> Cheers, Martin
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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

2019-04-12 Thread Martin Koppenhoefer


sent from a phone

> On 11. Apr 2019, at 09:27, Philip Barnes  wrote:
> 
> Cattle Market, or Livestock Market are the British terms for these.


what about the key, amenity? shop?
man_made?

“building” is about the building, not the feature (function), landuse is a 
property of the land. From the above I would go with amenity, similar to 
amenity=marketplace which by its current generic definition might also apply: 
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:amenity%3Dmarketplace
(if you decide to use this, it might make sense to add a subtag, e.g. 
market=livestock, generally I would see a difference if we can agree that 
marketplace is aiming at private end customers)

Cheers, Martin ___
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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

2019-04-11 Thread Philip Barnes
Cattle Market, or Livestock Market are the British terms for these. 

Cattle Market is the more general term although the signs these days will say 
Livestock Market so that is probably the most accurate. 

Landuse I would have thought would be commercial.  

Phil (trigpoint) 

On Thursday, 11 April 2019, Graeme Fitzpatrick wrote:
> On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 13:58, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:
> 
> > Any suggestions fora live stock sale yard?
> >
> > Not a farm. Don't really like landuse=commercial.
> >
> 
> I put one in as building=industrial with description Stock Sales Yard as I
> couldn't find anything better :-(
> 
> https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/543236247
> 
> But I'm not really thrilled with it.
> 
> Thanks
> 
> Graeme
>

-- 
Sent from my Sailfish device
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Re: [Tagging] tags for a live stock sale yard

2019-04-10 Thread Graeme Fitzpatrick
On Thu, 11 Apr 2019 at 13:58, Warin <61sundow...@gmail.com> wrote:

> Any suggestions fora live stock sale yard?
>
> Not a farm. Don't really like landuse=commercial.
>

I put one in as building=industrial with description Stock Sales Yard as I
couldn't find anything better :-(

https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/543236247

But I'm not really thrilled with it.

Thanks

Graeme
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