Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Dave Collier-Brown via talk]

We did in my undergraduate program: I wrote a 10-card loader that was 11 cards long (;-)) 
winning a prize for "you can;t do that!"

--dave

On 2020-05-01 2:45 p.m., Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:

On Fri, May 01, 2020 at 12:14:11PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:


Yeah.  I only used PDP-8 computers before floppies had been invented.

You didn't have to remember the RIM loader for the PDP-8/I, it was
silk-screened onto the console.



You didn't often need to use it since its only purpose was to load the
BIN loader, and that usually persisted (core memory FTW!).



I wonder if the developers had competitions on who could write the
shortest working loader program.



--
David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-br...@indexexchange.com
 |  -- Mark Twain



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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2020-05-01 06:09 PM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:

On 2020-05-01 2:45 p.m., Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:


I wonder if the developers had competitions on who could write the
shortest working loader program.


They still do. My friend Josh (also in the GTA) recently bootstrapped 
the Altair in 12 bytes. Bill Gates did it in 17. Details (plus Josh 
showing off his Altair, Imsai and Altair 680):
https://just8bits.blogspot.com/2017/03/doing-it-in-less-than-bill-gates.html 





I used to have an IMSAI 8080.  IIRC, Byte magazine used to have contests 
to do some task in the fewest Bytes.


BTW, I used to have a M35 ASR Teletype, which was a lot better machine 
than the M33.  I also started my career as a bench tech overhauling 
Teletypes.

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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2020-05-01 2:45 p.m., Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:


I wonder if the developers had competitions on who could write the
shortest working loader program.


They still do. My friend Josh (also in the GTA) recently  bootstrapped 
the Altair in 12 bytes. Bill Gates did it in 17. Details (plus Josh 
showing off his Altair, Imsai and Altair 680):

https://just8bits.blogspot.com/2017/03/doing-it-in-less-than-bill-gates.html

 Stewart


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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2020-05-01 03:59 PM, Anthony de Boer via talk wrote:

Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:

I wonder if the developers had competitions on who could write the
shortest working loader program.

No fair modifying hardware to create the new instructions you needed.
That was a thing, back when it was still possible to get tools between
parts of your CPU.


Both the Data General Eclipse and DEC VAX 11/780 supported microcode, 
where you could write your own instructions.  I occasionally had to 
track down microcode bugs on the Eclipse.


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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Anthony de Boer via talk]

Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
> I wonder if the developers had competitions on who could write the
> shortest working loader program.

No fair modifying hardware to create the new instructions you needed.
That was a thing, back when it was still possible to get tools between
parts of your CPU.

-- 
Anthony de Boer
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[David Mason via talk]

Way off-topic, but this reminds me of writing “Cold Start” cards for the 
IBM 1130. A card had 80 columns and 12 rows, so you had 80 words of program but 
the instructions needed to be carefully chosen because you only had 12 bits and 
the other 4 bits were filled in by hardware.

The standard one moved itself out of the way and then read the first sector off 
the disk. But someone wrote a “rabbit” card which would reproduce itself on 
every card in the hopper (typically you’d put a cold start card on the front of 
your deck and then hit the Initial Program Load sequence… so the rabbit card 
would destroy the whole deck!! One that I wrote basically made the line printer 
dance around the room (a.k.a. destroy itself if you didn’t stop it quickly).

../Dave
On May 1, 2020, 2:45 PM -0400, Lennart Sorensen via talk , 
wrote:
> On Fri, May 01, 2020 at 12:14:11PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> > Yeah. I only used PDP-8 computers before floppies had been invented.
> >
> > You didn't have to remember the RIM loader for the PDP-8/I, it was
> > silk-screened onto the console.
> >
> > 
> >
> > You didn't often need to use it since its only purpose was to load the
> > BIN loader, and that usually persisted (core memory FTW!).
>
> I wonder if the developers had competitions on who could write the
> shortest working loader program.
>
> --
> Len Sorensen
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Fri, May 01, 2020 at 12:14:11PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> Yeah.  I only used PDP-8 computers before floppies had been invented.
> 
> You didn't have to remember the RIM loader for the PDP-8/I, it was
> silk-screened onto the console.
> 
> 
> 
> You didn't often need to use it since its only purpose was to load the
> BIN loader, and that usually persisted (core memory FTW!).

I wonder if the developers had competitions on who could write the
shortest working loader program.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2020-05-01 12:14 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:

| On 2020-04-30 08:46 PM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
| > Even my PDP8

Neat!


There were also microprocessor versions of the PDP-11 and Data General 
Nova.  Heathkit had a computer based on the LSI-11.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Heathkit_H11
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: James Knott via talk 

| On 2020-04-30 08:46 PM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
| > Even my PDP8

Neat!

| Geez...  It's close to 40 years since I last touched a PDP-8.  We had a PDP-8i
| at work.  Anyone else here remember the RIM loader?

Yeah.  I only used PDP-8 computers before floppies had been invented.

You didn't have to remember the RIM loader for the PDP-8/I, it was
silk-screened onto the console.



You didn't often need to use it since its only purpose was to load the
BIN loader, and that usually persisted (core memory FTW!).---
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Scott Allen via talk]

On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 at 20:46, Stewart C. Russell via talk
 wrote:
> Seconding the IBM USB floppy drive. They work really well. Newer devices
> can only handle 1.44 MB disks, but the IBM will read 720 K disks too.

What about 2.88 MB ED disks? I have an (internal) drive that can
handle these and quite a few of the disks themselves. The problem is,
most motherboard BIOSs stopped supporting them along the way.

-- 
Scott
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[William Park via talk]

Guys, guys... this is one (of many) reason why we don't attract newbies.
The thread started with asking about new laptop (circa 2020), and have
deteriorated to PDP-8.  I can assure you no newbies is interested in
PDP-8/11 (circa 19xx).
-- 
William Park 

On Thu, Apr 30, 2020 at 09:08:48PM -0400, James Knott via talk wrote:
> On 2020-04-30 08:46 PM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:
> > Even my PDP8
> 
> Geez...  It's close to 40 years since I last touched a PDP-8.  We had a
> PDP-8i at work.  Anyone else here remember the RIM loader?
> 
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2020-04-30 08:46 PM, Stewart C. Russell via talk wrote:

Even my PDP8


Geez...  It's close to 40 years since I last touched a PDP-8.  We had a 
PDP-8i at work.  Anyone else here remember the RIM loader?


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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Stewart C. Russell via talk]

On 2020-04-30 10:56 a.m., Howard Gibson via talk wrote:


Does your USB floppy drive work?  I keep ordering these things and they 
work once or twice and then crap out.  The one I have now never worked.  They 
cost something like twelve bucks.  I am willing to pay more of something that 
works.


Seconding the IBM USB floppy drive. They work really well. Newer devices 
can only handle 1.44 MB disks, but the IBM will read 720 K disks too. 
None of them will read the weird Apple IIgs GCR floppies, though.


If you must use floppies or a device that thinks it needs them, Goteks 
are nice. They replace the floppy hardware with a USB port for a memory 
stick that can hold hundreds of floppy images.


Even my PDP8 (single board, but real Harris/Intersil HD-6120) uses a CF 
card these days … https://mltshp.com/p/1IF2N


 Stewart

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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2020-04-30 03:29 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier wrote:

| From: James Knott via talk

| Here is a photo of a core memory plane that I have.  It's 4K bits and came
| from a Collins B8500 computer.  There were 32 of these stacked in a module and
| 4 modules in the memory chassis, for a total of 64 KB.
|https://drive.google.com/open?id=1F0K1vDzT0HjrBDKySpQ8m91TPw2UDCsS

I find a Collins C8500 mentioned here, but no B series at all



The B preceded the C.  That article also mentions the 8400.  We had all 
3 at CN Telecommunications/CNCP Telecommunications.  The C8400 and B8500 
systems were were on the 4th floor at 151 Front St. W and the C8500 in 
Air Canada on the 6th floor (later expanded to 7th). The Air Canada 
C8500s were a communications front end for a Univac system, but the CN 
systems were the message switching systems for various services CN 
offered, including the public telegraph system and others.  The 
telegraph system later moved to some Data General Eclipse S130s.


From Dec. 1977 to Sept 1989, I was a computer tech there and worked on 
a variety of systems, including Data General Nova & Eclipse, DEC PDP-8, 
PDP-11 and VAX 11/780, Pr1me, Philips DS714 and Collins. There was also 
an HP 1000, but I didn't work on that.


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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: James Knott via talk 

| Here is a photo of a core memory plane that I have.  It's 4K bits and came
| from a Collins B8500 computer.  There were 32 of these stacked in a module and
| 4 modules in the memory chassis, for a total of 64 KB.
| https://drive.google.com/open?id=1F0K1vDzT0HjrBDKySpQ8m91TPw2UDCsS

I find a Collins C8500 mentioned here, but no B series at all


Burroughs had announced a B8500 but it was cancelled.
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2020-04-30 01:56 PM, Anthony de Boer via talk wrote:

El Fontanero via talk wrote:
 Why, we'd 'a given our eye teeth for PCMCIA! In*my*  
day...

Back in the day a REAL card went 9 Edge First, and you'd best remember to
dump out the chad hopper after punching your program.

I think I still have a FORTRAN deck I did back when.


Here is a photo of a core memory plane that I have.  It's 4K bits and 
came from a Collins B8500 computer.  There were 32 of these stacked in a 
module and 4 modules in the memory chassis, for a total of 64 KB.

https://drive.google.com/open?id=1F0K1vDzT0HjrBDKySpQ8m91TPw2UDCsS


[3] formats were never quite the same; who else remembers the story of
how Apple ][ floppies were written and read based on 6502 clock cycles of
the I/O loop


I recall that it wasn't compatible with anything else.


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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Anthony de Boer via talk]

El Fontanero via talk wrote:
>  Why, we'd 'a given our eye teeth for PCMCIA! In *my* 
> day...

Back in the day a REAL card went 9 Edge First, and you'd best remember to
dump out the chad hopper after punching your program.

I think I still have a FORTRAN deck I did back when.

Meanwhile, addressing the old-media-compatibility issue, having USB
dongles that do the job is probably[0] the third best thing, second best
is keeping an old system[1] around that still has the relevant
readers[2], and the best is to have dubbed all your old media to newer
storage during the era both were current so you'd not have to worry about
whether you can get one more gasp out of the corpse of dead technology.

For a laptop, portability, usability, and not being so stinking
expensive you're afraid to take it anywhere are key attributes. Being
able to leave most of your bag of tricks at home or in the car or in the
laptop bag can really save weight and clutter.

[0] those are never quite the same as the classic hardware they replace.

[1] eventually ancient hardware supported in an earlier Linux will be
forgotten by newer kernels; a software upgrade on your designated
dinosaur can too easily be what kills it.

[2] optical drive or some of the three sizes of floppy[3] drive.

[3] formats were never quite the same; who else remembers the story of
how Apple ][ floppies were written and read based on 6502 clock cycles of
the I/O loop, or ran the disassembler deep enough to comprehend the true
horror of how CP/M on that platform did its disk functions?

-- 
Anthony de Boer
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Dave Collier-Brown via talk]

On 2020-04-30 11:37 a.m., Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

I for one prefer to have my laptops with as few moving (and especially 
spinning) parts as possible. In the days of half-terabyte USB sticks, having a 
disk reader inside a laptop is dead space/weight used for archiving/ripping, 
and certainly doesn't need to be as portable as the rest of the computer.

...

My main laptop uses a dongle for wired Ethernet (a reasonable trade-off 
considering how rarely I use it),but I've seen ingeniously-thin RJ45 sockets 
built into some units.

- Evan

I've recently switched back to using docking stations, which give me toms of 
USB ports, multiple screen ports and wired Ethernet. My next machine won't need 
as many and as man kinds of ports onboard.

Colleagues at work use a cute little mac thingie that their screens and 
Ethernets plug into, a really small dock.

--dave

--
David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-br...@indexexchange.com
 |  -- Mark Twain



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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2020-04-30 11:37 AM, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
My main laptop uses a dongle for wired Ethernet (a reasonable 
trade-off considering how rarely I use it),but I've seen 
ingeniously-thin RJ45 sockets built into some units.


Back when I was at IBM (the first time), modems and network adapters 
came in the form of PCMCIA cards.  Those were a tight squeeze for the 
connectors, but they managed.  My R31 ThinkPad came with built in 
Ethernet and modem, but I lost the modem when I updated the WiFi from B 
only to G.  The modem and original WiFi shared the same daughter board.



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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

I for one prefer to have my laptops with as few moving (and especially
spinning) parts as possible. In the days of half-terabyte USB sticks,
having a disk reader inside a laptop is dead space/weight used for
archiving/ripping, and certainly doesn't need to be as portable as the rest
of the computer.

This weekend I'm replacing a kaput HD on a Dell laptop with an SDD (if I
can figure out to reinstall Windows on it for the laptop's owner, fine, if
not it's Kubuntu 20.04).

I have an external drive for CD/DVD/Bluray and another one for floppies
that is shared between devices. The floppy drive -- a $14 Aliexpress
generic -- is flaky but that usually seems more the fault of the media than
the drive. How old are those disks? How fragile are those sliding covers?

My main laptop uses a dongle for wired Ethernet (a reasonable trade-off
considering how rarely I use it),but I've seen ingeniously-thin RJ45
sockets built into some units.

- Evan


On Thu, 30 Apr 2020 at 10:57, Howard Gibson via talk 
wrote:

> James,
>
>Does your USB floppy drive work?  I keep ordering these things and they
> work once or twice and then crap out.  The one I have now never worked.
> They cost something like twelve bucks.  I am willing to pay more of
> something that works.
>
> On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 10:39:44 -0400
> James Knott via talk  wrote:
>
> > On 2020-04-27 10:22 AM, Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
> > > I think my current laptop has an RJ45 port.  I bought a docking
> station for it, so I use that.  Historically, I use the RJ45s because I
> transfer data to and from the laptop, and I want it to happen quickly.
> >
> > I use Wifi or Ethernet.  For normal use, WiFi is fine.  But if I'm doing
> > something major, such as installing an OS, then I'll use Ethernet.
> > > I visited Canada Computers in Etobicoke, and I think I got the
> last desktop with slots for DVD/Blu-Ray discs (and 5-1/4 floppy drives),
> and controls on the front.  My cat can no longer turn my computer off.  You
> people are on your own!
> >
> > At least I have an external USB floppy drive! ;-)
> >
> > ---
> > Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
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> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
> --
> Howard Gibson
> hgib...@eol.ca
> jhowardgib...@gmail.com
> http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
> ---
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>


-- 
Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch or @el56
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2020-04-30 10:56 AM, Howard Gibson via talk wrote:

Does your USB floppy drive work?  I keep ordering these things and they 
work once or twice and then crap out.  The one I have now never worked.  They 
cost something like twelve bucks.  I am willing to pay more of something that 
works.



I had to find a floppy disk to test it with, but yes it still works.  As 
soon as I put the floppy in the drive, the Device Notifier asked if I 
wanted to open it.  I did and can see all the files on the floppy.


However, this isn't some cheap drive from the Internet.  It's actual IBM 
gear that came with my first ThinkPad.  Back when I bought the ThinkPad, 
from the IBM Warehouse in Markham, I had the choice of an internal 
floppy drive or CD drive.  I went with the CD drive and external floppy 
drive.  On the bottom it says "IBM Portable Diskette Drive" etc..  P/N 
06P5223.  So, if you want something reliable, perhaps you could find one 
of those.



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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Howard Gibson via talk]

James,

   Does your USB floppy drive work?  I keep ordering these things and they work 
once or twice and then crap out.  The one I have now never worked.  They cost 
something like twelve bucks.  I am willing to pay more of something that works. 

On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 10:39:44 -0400
James Knott via talk  wrote:

> On 2020-04-27 10:22 AM, Howard Gibson via talk wrote:
> > I think my current laptop has an RJ45 port.  I bought a docking station 
> > for it, so I use that.  Historically, I use the RJ45s because I transfer 
> > data to and from the laptop, and I want it to happen quickly.
> 
> I use Wifi or Ethernet.  For normal use, WiFi is fine.  But if I'm doing 
> something major, such as installing an OS, then I'll use Ethernet.
> > I visited Canada Computers in Etobicoke, and I think I got the last 
> > desktop with slots for DVD/Blu-Ray discs (and 5-1/4 floppy drives), and 
> > controls on the front.  My cat can no longer turn my computer off.  You 
> > people are on your own!
> 
> At least I have an external USB floppy drive! ;-)
> 
> ---
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-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgib...@eol.ca
jhowardgib...@gmail.com
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 11:45:47AM -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson via talk wrote:
> I have used the builtin keyboard and touchpad (e.g. when I am at a
> library), and they work fine. Normally I do use an external keyboard
> (http://cfaj.ca/keyboard.jpg), mouse, screen (49"!) and speakers
> (Harmon Kardon Soundsticks III).

I have never had an external keyboard connected to my W530.  I have
occationally connected a mouse to play some games, but most of the time
I don't.  The trackpoint is perfectly usable for most tasks.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 12:13:20AM -0300, Mauro Souza via talk wrote:
> If she wants a new HP, I bet she will later need another HP...
> 
> As Hugh said, I only have Thinkpad on a different category. I had more than
> a couple company issued laptops from a variety of brands (HP, Dell, Acer,
> Itautec) and every single one was replaced because of hardware issues, some
> under warranty, some not. Until I got a ThinkPad and I refused to get a
> newer, faster, shinier non thinkpad... One of my current laptops (I have 2)
> is a T430 from '12, but I don't trade it for a new HP or Dell...

My wife has two HP laptops from work.  Both are about 4 months old.
One has audio problems, the other seems to have misplaced the nvidia
chip so only the intel graphics works, which means no external monitors
can be connected.  One of them was just reimaged because it managed to
mess up windows bad enough skype couldn't launch.  Those are Zbook 15
G5 workstation laptops.  Not looking good quality wise for HP so far.
The issues with the video on one is why she has the other but the second
hasn't fully worked yet and hence she still has both of them.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Chris F.A. Johnson via talk]

On Mon, 27 Apr 2020, Lennart Sorensen wrote:


On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 07:07:29PM -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson via talk wrote:

I bought a used Dell Inspiron 3720 about 7 years ago.

It has been my main (and only) computer for the last 6 years.

I have had no issues other than the internal DVD drive failing.


Do you ever use the touchpad and keyboard on it?  My experience with
Dell's of that era were they were essentially unusable without an external
mouse and keyboard.  I remember so many people carrying mice and keyboards
with them to meetings.


I have used the builtin keyboard and touchpad (e.g. when I am at a
library), and they work fine. Normally I do use an external keyboard
(http://cfaj.ca/keyboard.jpg), mouse, screen (49"!) and speakers
(Harmon Kardon Soundsticks III).

--
   Chris F.A. Johnson 
   === Author: ===
   Shell Scripting Recipes: A Problem-Solution Approach (2005, Apress)
   Pro Bash Programming: Scripting the GNU/Linux shell (2009, Apress)
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2020-04-27 10:22 AM, Howard Gibson via talk wrote:

I think my current laptop has an RJ45 port.  I bought a docking station for 
it, so I use that.  Historically, I use the RJ45s because I transfer data to 
and from the laptop, and I want it to happen quickly.


I use Wifi or Ethernet.  For normal use, WiFi is fine.  But if I'm doing 
something major, such as installing an OS, then I'll use Ethernet.

I visited Canada Computers in Etobicoke, and I think I got the last desktop 
with slots for DVD/Blu-Ray discs (and 5-1/4 floppy drives), and controls on the 
front.  My cat can no longer turn my computer off.  You people are on your own!


At least I have an external USB floppy drive! ;-)

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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Howard Gibson via talk]

On Mon, 27 Apr 2020 09:45:01 -0400
Lennart Sorensen via talk  wrote:

> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 05:18:29PM -0400, James Knott via talk wrote:
> > And use USB Ethernet adapters.
> 
> The Thinkpad T and P series still have RJ45 ports.  But I can believe
> it will disappear since most other laptops have done so.  Most people
> don't use them ever.

Lennart,

   I think my current laptop has an RJ45 port.  I bought a docking station for 
it, so I use that.  Historically, I use the RJ45s because I transfer data to 
and from the laptop, and I want it to happen quickly.  

   I visited Canada Computers in Etobicoke, and I think I got the last desktop 
with slots for DVD/Blu-Ray discs (and 5-1/4 floppy drives), and controls on the 
front.  My cat can no longer turn my computer off.  You people are on your own!

-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgib...@eol.ca
jhowardgib...@gmail.com
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 07:07:29PM -0400, Chris F.A. Johnson via talk wrote:
> I bought a used Dell Inspiron 3720 about 7 years ago.
> 
> It has been my main (and only) computer for the last 6 years.
> 
> I have had no issues other than the internal DVD drive failing.

Do you ever use the touchpad and keyboard on it?  My experience with
Dell's of that era were they were essentially unusable without an external
mouse and keyboard.  I remember so many people carrying mice and keyboards
with them to meetings.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 05:17:38PM -0400, James Knott via talk wrote:
> One very important feature of my E520 is the "Windows" key has a recessed
> area that nicely fits a Tux sticker that I bought a while ago! ;-)

I think the x30 models was went they went to chiclet keys, so I guess
that option disappeared after yours then.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2020-04-27 07:38 AM, Gron Arthur via talk wrote:

The previous HP lasted about 10 years. I'm using a ThinkPad and
dreading having to buy a newer machine after the this experience.
The thinner laptops remove many things. I like to have an sd card
reader, but those are not to be found on many of the newer laptops.
Also, most laptop sellers group the laptops into 'gaming' or 'business
machines', these are really unhelpful marketing categories.


Some of the newer models also don't even have an Ethernet port.  You 
have to use a USB C adapter.  Also, not many have a floppy drive these 
days! ;-)


However, i preference would be for business class, no matter who makes 
it.  Even with Lenovo, there's a big difference between the ThinkPad and 
Lenovo models.


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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Gron Arthur via talk]

The previous HP lasted about 10 years. I'm using a ThinkPad and
dreading having to buy a newer machine after the this experience.
The thinner laptops remove many things. I like to have an sd card
reader, but those are not to be found on many of the newer laptops.
Also, most laptop sellers group the laptops into 'gaming' or 'business
machines', these are really unhelpful marketing categories.

On Mon, Apr 27, 2020 at 6:51 AM James Knott via talk  wrote:
>
> On 2020-04-26 11:13 PM, Mauro Souza via talk wrote:
> > If she wants a new HP, I bet she will later need another HP...
> >
> > As Hugh said, I only have Thinkpad on a different category. I had more
> > than a couple company issued laptops from a variety of brands (HP,
> > Dell, Acer, Itautec) and every single one was replaced because of
> > hardware issues, some under warranty, some not. Until I got a ThinkPad
> > and I refused to get a newer, faster, shinier non thinkpad... One of
> > my current laptops (I have 2) is a T430 from '12, but I don't trade it
> > for a new HP or Dell...
>
> I agree.  I have had 2 ThinkPads of my own, currently an E520 and they
> both worked fine.  The only reason I gave away my old one was I bought
> my current one, with a 16 x 9 screen and better WiFi.  Other than the
> battery going, I've never had any issue with them.  I also used to work
> at IBM, doing 3rd level software support and most of my work there was
> on ThinkPads and I never saw  one fail.  On the other hand, i had a Dell
> at one place I worked at it would lock up with a kaleidoscope of colours
> on the screen.  I have seen other failures with other makes too.  In my
> experience, the ThinkPads have been rock solid.
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2020-04-26 11:13 PM, Mauro Souza via talk wrote:

If she wants a new HP, I bet she will later need another HP...

As Hugh said, I only have Thinkpad on a different category. I had more 
than a couple company issued laptops from a variety of brands (HP, 
Dell, Acer, Itautec) and every single one was replaced because of 
hardware issues, some under warranty, some not. Until I got a ThinkPad 
and I refused to get a newer, faster, shinier non thinkpad... One of 
my current laptops (I have 2) is a T430 from '12, but I don't trade it 
for a new HP or Dell...


I agree.  I have had 2 ThinkPads of my own, currently an E520 and they 
both worked fine.  The only reason I gave away my old one was I bought 
my current one, with a 16 x 9 screen and better WiFi.  Other than the 
battery going, I've never had any issue with them.  I also used to work 
at IBM, doing 3rd level software support and most of my work there was 
on ThinkPads and I never saw  one fail.  On the other hand, i had a Dell 
at one place I worked at it would lock up with a kaleidoscope of colours 
on the screen.  I have seen other failures with other makes too.  In my 
experience, the ThinkPads have been rock solid.


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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Mauro Souza via talk]

If she wants a new HP, I bet she will later need another HP...

As Hugh said, I only have Thinkpad on a different category. I had more than
a couple company issued laptops from a variety of brands (HP, Dell, Acer,
Itautec) and every single one was replaced because of hardware issues, some
under warranty, some not. Until I got a ThinkPad and I refused to get a
newer, faster, shinier non thinkpad... One of my current laptops (I have 2)
is a T430 from '12, but I don't trade it for a new HP or Dell...

On Sun, Apr 26, 2020, 19:09 D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk 
wrote:

> | From: William Park via talk 
>
> | I'd interested to know why you went with HP?
>
> I don't have a lot of brand loyalty with notebooks.  Except, perhaps,
> ThinkPad.
>
> All notebooks are built by a few ODMs (Original Device Manufacturer).
> Often they do most of the engineering too.  So the brand isn't really
> the main determinant of quality.
>
> Here's a stale ODM list.  It doesn't say which ODMs built which
> marques.
>
> <
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_laptop_brands_and_manufacturers#ODM_laptop_units_sold_and_market_shares
> >
>
> I do know that Foxconn makes a lot of Apple stuff.  And a lot of other
> stuff.
>
> Lenovo and Asus made a lot of their own stuff.
>
> I think HP uses different ODMs for different models but I don't know
> this.
>
> In my experience, HP has sold some interesting really low-end netbooks
> (HP Stream) and some nice "business class" notebooks.  They've also
> taken "Envy" from a premium brand to a not-that-good brand.
>
> I have a "business class" HP tablet that they damaged with a firmware
> update (there is now a noticable delay between a touch and the
> response).  They have never fixed.  Even though some customers
> complained and some returned them under warranty.
>
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Gron Arthur via talk]

It's my wife's computer, she has been using HP and figured she'd keep
using them.

On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 5:17 PM William Park via talk  wrote:
>
> I'd interested to know why you went with HP?
> --
> William Park 
>
> On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 09:11:44AM -0400, Gron Arthur via talk wrote:
> > Thanks for the help everyone.  It's was my wife's laptop that crashed
> > and she'll be ordering one from the HP website.  I'm also going to try
> > to use restic with Backblaze B2 for backing up our data.
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[William Park via talk]

I'd interested to know why you went with HP?
-- 
William Park 

On Sat, Apr 25, 2020 at 09:11:44AM -0400, Gron Arthur via talk wrote:
> Thanks for the help everyone.  It's was my wife's laptop that crashed
> and she'll be ordering one from the HP website.  I'm also going to try
> to use restic with Backblaze B2 for backing up our data.
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Marc Lijour via talk]

Dell XPS 13 works like a charm and it ships with Ubuntu pre-installed

Le sam. 25 avr. 2020 à 09:24, James Knott via talk  a
écrit :

> On 2020-04-24 12:11 PM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:
> > While not a recommendation, this just popped up on LWN
> >
> > https://fedoramagazine.org/coming-soon-fedora-on-lenovo-laptops/
> >
> >
>
> Down in the comments, the article author posted:
>
> "I don’t know about current models, but Lenovo is working with their
> vendors to make sure we have firmware support going forward."
>
> This is certainly good news.  I like the ThinkPads, but when I got my
> E520 I had to wait a short while for SuSE to catch up with the WiFi.
> One other thing I like about ThinkPads is they have the TrackPoint.
> I've hated using those touch pads ever since I first came across one on
> a Toshiba notebook running Windows 95.  I disabled the touchpad on my E520.
>
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2020-04-24 12:11 PM, Dhaval Giani via talk wrote:

While not a recommendation, this just popped up on LWN

https://fedoramagazine.org/coming-soon-fedora-on-lenovo-laptops/




Down in the comments, the article author posted:

"I don’t know about current models, but Lenovo is working with their 
vendors to make sure we have firmware support going forward."


This is certainly good news.  I like the ThinkPads, but when I got my 
E520 I had to wait a short while for SuSE to catch up with the WiFi.  
One other thing I like about ThinkPads is they have the TrackPoint.  
I've hated using those touch pads ever since I first came across one on 
a Toshiba notebook running Windows 95.  I disabled the touchpad on my E520.


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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Gron Arthur via talk]

Thanks for the help everyone.  It's was my wife's laptop that crashed
and she'll be ordering one from the HP website.
I'm also going to try to use restic with Backblaze B2 for backing up our data.

On Fri, Apr 24, 2020 at 12:11 PM Dhaval Giani via talk  wrote:
>
> While not a recommendation, this just popped up on LWN
>
> https://fedoramagazine.org/coming-soon-fedora-on-lenovo-laptops/
>
> Dhaval
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Gron Arthur via talk 

| Need to buy a new laptop, any recommendations? Any good outlets that deliver?

It would be useful if you told us what you need, want, value, and are 
willing to pay.
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Dhaval Giani via talk]

While not a recommendation, this just popped up on LWN

https://fedoramagazine.org/coming-soon-fedora-on-lenovo-laptops/

Dhaval
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Chris F.A. Johnson via talk]

On Wed, 22 Apr 2020, Mauro Souza via talk wrote:


My current 2 laptops are Thinkpads, T430 and T460. My previous ones were 
Thinkpads too, and they are heavy like a brick, look like a brick, and sturdy 
as a brick. Never had a problem
with them. But I had Dell and HP notebooks and all failed from overheating 
issues, motherboard issues, things like that.


I bought a used Dell Inspiron 3720 about 7 years ago.

It has been my main (and only) computer for the last 6 years.

I have had no issues other than the internal DVD drive failing.

--
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2020-04-22 05:02 PM, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:

The new ones are certainly thinner and lighter.


And use USB Ethernet adapters.

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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2020-04-22 04:47 PM, Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 09:42:43AM -0400, Gron Arthur via talk wrote:

Need to buy a new laptop, any recommendations? Any good outlets that deliver?

Any laptop I have bought in the last decade has been ordered from
Lenovo's website.  That way I get to spec it as I want it, and delivery
has been free and usually pretty quick too.



One very important feature of my E520 is the "Windows" key has a 
recessed area that nicely fits a Tux sticker that I bought a while ago! ;-)

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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 04:44:53PM -0400, Dave Collier-Brown via talk wrote:
> I have a thinkpad t440p with 32 GB, socketed. They have some slightly slimmer 
> 32 and 64 GB models, which I will look at when I need more memory.

The new ones are certainly thinner and lighter.  They have unfortunately
stopped having externally swappable batteries, although the battery life
is quite impressively long these days.  I think most laptops have made
that change.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 02:49:05PM -0400, Gron Arthur via talk wrote:
> Thanks for suggestions, especially the checking repair videos.
> I also forgot that I can buy from the manufacturer's website, and was
> jumping straight into Amazon.

In addition to videos, check if the service manual is available.
At least for thinkpads they generally have been and are very well written.

-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 09:42:43AM -0400, Gron Arthur via talk wrote:
> Need to buy a new laptop, any recommendations? Any good outlets that deliver?

Any laptop I have bought in the last decade has been ordered from
Lenovo's website.  That way I get to spec it as I want it, and delivery
has been free and usually pretty quick too.

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Dave Collier-Brown via talk]

I have a thinkpad t440p with 32 GB, socketed. They have some slightly slimmer 
32 and 64 GB models, which I will look at when I need more memory.

--dave

On 2020-04-22 4:29 p.m., Mauro Souza via talk wrote:
My current 2 laptops are Thinkpads, T430 and T460. My previous ones were 
Thinkpads too, and they are heavy like a brick, look like a brick, and sturdy 
as a brick. Never had a problem with them. But I had Dell and HP notebooks and 
all failed from overheating issues, motherboard issues, things like that.

Mauro
http://mauro.limeiratem.com - registered Linux User: 294521
Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God.


Em qua., 22 de abr. de 2020 às 17:07, James Knott via talk 
mailto:talk@gtalug.org>> escreveu:
On 2020-04-22 03:47 PM, William Park via talk wrote:

Microsoft (for new).

Loaded with Linux? ;-)

BTW, I have a Lenovo ThinkPad E520, which has served me well for about
8.5 years.  Previously I had an R51, IIRC.  Prior to that I had access
to lots of ThinkPads, when I worked at IBM.  I used to have a dozen or
so at my desk, in addition to my work computer.

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--
David Collier-Brown, | Always do right. This will gratify
System Programmer and Author | some people and astonish the rest
dave.collier-br...@indexexchange.com
 |  -- Mark Twain



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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Mauro Souza via talk]

My current 2 laptops are Thinkpads, T430 and T460. My previous ones were
Thinkpads too, and they are heavy like a brick, look like a brick, and
sturdy as a brick. Never had a problem with them. But I had Dell and HP
notebooks and all failed from overheating issues, motherboard issues,
things like that.

Mauro
http://mauro.limeiratem.com - registered Linux User: 294521
Scripture is both history, and a love letter from God.


Em qua., 22 de abr. de 2020 às 17:07, James Knott via talk 
escreveu:

> On 2020-04-22 03:47 PM, William Park via talk wrote:
> > Microsoft (for new).
> Loaded with Linux? ;-)
>
> BTW, I have a Lenovo ThinkPad E520, which has served me well for about
> 8.5 years.  Previously I had an R51, IIRC.  Prior to that I had access
> to lots of ThinkPads, when I worked at IBM.  I used to have a dozen or
> so at my desk, in addition to my work computer.
>
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[James Knott via talk]

On 2020-04-22 03:47 PM, William Park via talk wrote:

Microsoft (for new).

Loaded with Linux? ;-)

BTW, I have a Lenovo ThinkPad E520, which has served me well for about 
8.5 years.  Previously I had an R51, IIRC.  Prior to that I had access 
to lots of ThinkPads, when I worked at IBM.  I used to have a dozen or 
so at my desk, in addition to my work computer.


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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[William Park via talk]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 09:42:43AM -0400, Gron Arthur via talk wrote:
> Need to buy a new laptop, any recommendations? Any good outlets that deliver?

Make: Lenovo
Store: Newegg (for refurbished), Lenovo (for new), Microsoft (for new).
-- 
William Park 
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Gron Arthur via talk]

Thanks for suggestions, especially the checking repair videos.
I also forgot that I can buy from the manufacturer's website, and was
jumping straight into Amazon.

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:35 AM Znoteer via talk  wrote:
>
> On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:10:27AM -0400, Don Tai via talk wrote:
> > Before you make the final decision I always look for repair videos on your
> > model, if possible. See how difficult it is to take apart. Can memory be
> > added? Can you replace the battery easily? Laptops are more difficult to
> > repair, so I plan ahead. Something in the future will always need a repair.
> >
>
> That's an excellent suggestion.  Thanks Don
>
> [snip]
> > >
> > > On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 at 10:57, Gron Arthur via talk 
> > > wrote:
> > >
> > >> Need to buy a new laptop, any recommendations? Any good outlets that
> > >> deliver?
>
>
> --
> Znoteer
> znot...@mailbox.org
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Znoteer via talk]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 11:10:27AM -0400, Don Tai via talk wrote:
> Before you make the final decision I always look for repair videos on your
> model, if possible. See how difficult it is to take apart. Can memory be
> added? Can you replace the battery easily? Laptops are more difficult to
> repair, so I plan ahead. Something in the future will always need a repair.
> 

That's an excellent suggestion.  Thanks Don

[snip]
> >
> > On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 at 10:57, Gron Arthur via talk 
> > wrote:
> >
> >> Need to buy a new laptop, any recommendations? Any good outlets that
> >> deliver?


-- 
Znoteer
znot...@mailbox.org
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Znoteer via talk]

On Wed, Apr 22, 2020 at 09:42:43AM -0400, Gron Arthur via talk wrote:
> Need to buy a new laptop, any recommendations? Any good outlets that deliver?

Lenovo ThinkPad X and T series have been good to me for 2 laptops.  Lots of
my entourage have them, I think nearly all purchased used or refurbished. 
Everyone seems satisfied.

I bought my current lappy (x240) used from an individual.  My previous
Lenovo  was given to me by a friend.  Anyway, I'm in Montreal, so none of my
store references would likely be useful to you.  Beware though, that some
stores I've seen on line, be they bricks and mortar or virtual only, don't
actually refurbish, though they kinda sorta seemta infer that they do
"tests" to insure everything is working.  So basically you're getting a used
laptop, period, from those guys.  That's not necessarily bad, as usually
they're cheaper than the refurbs, too.

-- 
Znoteer
znot...@mailbox.org
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Dave Cramer via talk]

I think some parameters may help.

What do you want to run on it O/S, use cases ?
How much memory do you need/want?
CPU's ?

Dave Cramer


On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 at 11:10, Don Tai via talk  wrote:

> Before you make the final decision I always look for repair videos on your
> model, if possible. See how difficult it is to take apart. Can memory be
> added? Can you replace the battery easily? Laptops are more difficult to
> repair, so I plan ahead. Something in the future will always need a repair.
>
> Don
>
> On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 at 11:06, Evan Leibovitch via talk 
> wrote:
>
>> I've had a couple of Asus and Lenovo models that have never done me wrong.
>>
>> Acer ... generally cheaper, for a reason.
>>
>> Canada Computer is now doing $8 flat rate shipping. Best Buy and Amazon
>> may also have good deals, shop around for what you want.
>> And of course Lenovo and Dell have their own e-commerce websites.
>>
>> On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 at 10:57, Gron Arthur via talk 
>> wrote:
>>
>>> Need to buy a new laptop, any recommendations? Any good outlets that
>>> deliver?
>>> ---
>>> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
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>>>
>>
>>
>> --
>> Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
>> @evanleibovitch or @el56
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Don Tai via talk]

Before you make the final decision I always look for repair videos on your
model, if possible. See how difficult it is to take apart. Can memory be
added? Can you replace the battery easily? Laptops are more difficult to
repair, so I plan ahead. Something in the future will always need a repair.

Don

On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 at 11:06, Evan Leibovitch via talk 
wrote:

> I've had a couple of Asus and Lenovo models that have never done me wrong.
>
> Acer ... generally cheaper, for a reason.
>
> Canada Computer is now doing $8 flat rate shipping. Best Buy and Amazon
> may also have good deals, shop around for what you want.
> And of course Lenovo and Dell have their own e-commerce websites.
>
> On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 at 10:57, Gron Arthur via talk 
> wrote:
>
>> Need to buy a new laptop, any recommendations? Any good outlets that
>> deliver?
>> ---
>> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
>> Unsubscribe from this mailing list
>> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
> --
> Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
> @evanleibovitch or @el56
> ---
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Re: [GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

I've had a couple of Asus and Lenovo models that have never done me wrong.

Acer ... generally cheaper, for a reason.

Canada Computer is now doing $8 flat rate shipping. Best Buy and Amazon may
also have good deals, shop around for what you want.
And of course Lenovo and Dell have their own e-commerce websites.

On Wed, 22 Apr 2020 at 10:57, Gron Arthur via talk  wrote:

> Need to buy a new laptop, any recommendations? Any good outlets that
> deliver?
> ---
> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
> Unsubscribe from this mailing list
> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>


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Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch or @el56
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[GTALUG] Laptop recommendations?

[Gron Arthur via talk]

Need to buy a new laptop, any recommendations? Any good outlets that deliver?
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