Re: [GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[Russell Reiter via talk]

On Wednesday, 24 March 2021, Evan Leibovitch  wrote:

> On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 at 11:53, Russell Reiter via talk 
> wrote:
>
>> An incel is a personal self description as involuntary celebate.
>>
>
> Yeah, that was an incendiary headline, and I apologize to all who broke at
> that one.
>
> This is not at all a linux topic.
>>
>
> Actually it is, for anyone who cares about advocacy and the community as
> much as the tech, it very much is.
>

Ahh we have to agree to disagree on this.

The first list rule before you read the code of conduct is don't be the
person (guy) on the soap box.

Soapboxing is a socio-political marketing tool. You were soapboxing in the
most political way possible, by ascribing a non existent and wholy negative
personal attribute out of thin air and at a whim.

>
> My take on this winnerless sad chain of events that it's actually not at
> all about Stallman himself.
> It's pathetic story that says volumes about the free software community.
>

Just to be clear, it wasn't the wrong characterization of Stallman as an
incel that made me respond, it was the soapboxing which I think violated
the code of conduct.

What you write now after that fact, is the non apologetic apology so often
used by political actors when they in essence tell us to not believe what
they said but  believe what I mean.

>
> It's not about free speech. Stallman never lost access to his soapbox, the
> blog from which he expressed himself.
>
> To the extent it's been about "cancel culture", you reap what you sow. RMS
> and the FSF have been engaging in would-be cancelling for many decades.
>
> Cancel Xerox.
> Cancel Apple.
> Cancel "Linux System".
> Cancel "open source".
>
> That they did not succeed did not diminish the efforts. I was present when
> FSF people (including RMS) successfully got the words "open source" purged
> from an important UN policy document, only to be  outmanoeuvred by
> proprietary interests who prevented "free software" from replacing it. So
> in the end there was no mention of anything. Yay us.
>
> There is much to admire about Stallman.  I purchased a GNU magtape in 1989
> without having a magtape reader, because that was the way you contributed
> to the GNU project back then. Arguably the FOSS world as we know it might
> never exist as it does with him.
>
> However, that world has evolved, or at least it's trying to. There are
> still barriers to entry that keep our community smaller and older than it
> should be. There are many, many among us who could be as passionate about
> free software as Stallman, without all of the inevitable negative baggage.
> Frankly, I haven't been following most of the accusations, and can make my
> judgment on RMS's suitability for leadership based solely on what I've seen
> and heard myself after numerous encounters, and from what I've heard from
> others I trust.
>
> But, as I said, this is not about Stallman. He is what he is and,
> generally, what he's always been -- simultaneously brilliant, narcissistic
> and antisocial, Sheldon Cooper with a Jesus complex. I fully agree that the
> guilt-by-association stuff is bullshit.
>
> This, instead, is about the FSF Board's staggeringly bad judgment in
> bringing him back into a role of leadership and decision-making. Rather be
> remembered as the creator of a movement, he'll be remembered as the person
> whose comeback made that movement irrelevant. Instead of charting a way to
> promote free software ideals at a time when the cloud directly threatens
> their core ethos, the FSF chooses the anti-diplomat.
>
> On reflection, forget the petition. The damage is done and the FSF is
> likely going to become a pariah org no matter what happens. Any pretence
> the FSF had of being the conscience of the broader FOSS movement is gone.
> Nobody wins, but we in the community who struggle to attract diversity and
> broader societal support will lose the worst. I hope someone out there
> thinks the trade was worth it.
>
> Conclusion:
>
> 
> "You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the
> villain " -- Harvey Dent.
> 
>
> Cheers,
>

I have spent a couple of decades moving in marganalized spaces and
proselytizing linux use as an alternative to mainstream for profit
software. It would be very had for me to justify to anyone of those peers
who I engaged with, just how this thread was about linux or advocacy in our
modern free and democratic society.

But hey, it's just my opinion that this thread is not about linux.

I wouldnt bother writing this at all if I didn't think this listserv was
worth the effort needed to keep it free and democratic.

Free as in 

Re: [GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 at 11:53, Russell Reiter via talk 
wrote:

> An incel is a personal self description as involuntary celebate.
>

Yeah, that was an incendiary headline, and I apologize to all who broke at
that one.

This is not at all a linux topic.
>

Actually it is, for anyone who cares about advocacy and the community as
much as the tech, it very much is.

My take on this winnerless sad chain of events that it's actually not at
all about Stallman himself.
It's pathetic story that says volumes about the free software community.

It's not about free speech. Stallman never lost access to his soapbox, the
blog from which he expressed himself.

To the extent it's been about "cancel culture", you reap what you sow. RMS
and the FSF have been engaging in would-be cancelling for many decades.

Cancel Xerox.
Cancel Apple.
Cancel "Linux System".
Cancel "open source".

That they did not succeed did not diminish the efforts. I was present when
FSF people (including RMS) successfully got the words "open source" purged
from an important UN policy document, only to be  outmanoeuvred by
proprietary interests who prevented "free software" from replacing it. So
in the end there was no mention of anything. Yay us.

There is much to admire about Stallman.  I purchased a GNU magtape in 1989
without having a magtape reader, because that was the way you contributed
to the GNU project back then. Arguably the FOSS world as we know it might
never exist as it does with him.

However, that world has evolved, or at least it's trying to. There are
still barriers to entry that keep our community smaller and older than it
should be. There are many, many among us who could be as passionate about
free software as Stallman, without all of the inevitable negative baggage.
Frankly, I haven't been following most of the accusations, and can make my
judgment on RMS's suitability for leadership based solely on what I've seen
and heard myself after numerous encounters, and from what I've heard from
others I trust.

But, as I said, this is not about Stallman. He is what he is and,
generally, what he's always been -- simultaneously brilliant, narcissistic
and antisocial, Sheldon Cooper with a Jesus complex. I fully agree that the
guilt-by-association stuff is bullshit.

This, instead, is about the FSF Board's staggeringly bad judgment in
bringing him back into a role of leadership and decision-making. Rather be
remembered as the creator of a movement, he'll be remembered as the person
whose comeback made that movement irrelevant. Instead of charting a way to
promote free software ideals at a time when the cloud directly threatens
their core ethos, the FSF chooses the anti-diplomat.

On reflection, forget the petition. The damage is done and the FSF is
likely going to become a pariah org no matter what happens. Any pretence
the FSF had of being the conscience of the broader FOSS movement is gone.
Nobody wins, but we in the community who struggle to attract diversity and
broader societal support will lose the worst. I hope someone out there
thinks the trade was worth it.

Conclusion:

"You either die a hero, or live long enough to see yourself become the
villain " -- Harvey Dent.


Cheers,

- Evan
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Re: [GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[Russell Reiter via talk]

On Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 11:57 AM Howard Gibson via talk, 
wrote:

> On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 21:46:00 -0400
> Evan Leibovitch via talk  wrote:
>
> > ... hopefully, not for long.
>
> Evan,
>
>Some useful and interesting references...
>
>https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman
>https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman
>
>Rational Wiki is interesting, since it is opinionated as all hell.
> Wikipedia is required to maintain a neutral tone.


Thanks for posting this. Rational Wiki had a fact I wasn't aware of
regarding the editing of a Vice article.

>
"Eventually, discussions between Stallman and the rest of the CSAIL mailing
list would end up getting forwared to another student at MIT, who published
the story on Medium.[38]
 The
story started getting minor traction, until VICE ran an article on it[39]
.
The article, whilst mostly accurate would remove the second sentence from
the emphasized paragraph, which ended up making Stallman look like he was
defending Epstein. This resulted in the story blowing up and most news
outlets, rather than verifying the original emails (which VICE had attached
to their article[40]
)
simply ended up copying VICEs shortening of the headline."


>
>Are they trying to disassociate themselves from a criminal, or do they
> just want to not be represented by an asshole?  Stallman has certainly
> demonstrated the importance of public figures STFU when the topic is
> something they don't understand.


Somtimes you have to dig for your knowledge. It may be valid, even though
you don't like the envelope it arrives in.

Generally people make mistakes and errors in judgement all the time. Its
how we correct those errors and mistakes that describes the content of our
character.

Of course that an impossible thing when someone edits your words after the
fact and then the mob runs with that.


>
> --
> Howard Gibson
> hgib...@eol.ca
> jhowardgib...@gmail.com
> http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
> ---
> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
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> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
Russell

“Th’ newspaper does ivrything f’r us. It runs th’ polis foorce an’ th’
banks, commands th’ milishy, controls th’ ligislachure, baptizes th’ young,
marries th’ foolish, comforts th’ afflicted, afflicts th’ comfortable,
buries th’ dead an’ roasts thim aftherward.” F. P. Dunne
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Re: [GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Alex Volkov via talk 

| Hello Evan,
| 
| Reading the replies to your post I feel disappointed that we have so many
| reactionaries in our midst.

We need a diversity of voices.  But not rude ones.

Calling Stallman an "incel" is quite wrong and deserves an invocation
of our Code of Conduct.

This discussion itself is clearly divisive.  Is it worth having?  It seems 
that there is more heat than light.

| I support this idea.

I don't.

Nothing I've read makes it crystal clear that RMS has done anything wrong. 
Many tellings are importantly inaccurate.  I don't wish to spend hours and 
hours investigating.

(I've met Stallman a few times.  In my experience, he isn't a very
likable person.  But that's not a crime.  He's also done much good for
the computer field (and some bad).  That does not mitigate any crime.)

| I'm going to cc email to the board and see if we can vote on board list 
| or call a meeting.

I would consider it improper for GTALUG to sign this unless you can show 
sufficiently broad support.

| In the meantime It is also possible to sign the petition as an individual.

Absolutely.
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Re: [GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[Howard Gibson via talk]

On Tue, 23 Mar 2021 21:46:00 -0400
Evan Leibovitch via talk  wrote:

> ... hopefully, not for long.

Evan,

   Some useful and interesting references...

   https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman
   https://rationalwiki.org/wiki/Richard_Stallman

   Rational Wiki is interesting, since it is opinionated as all hell.  
Wikipedia is required to maintain a neutral tone.  

   Are they trying to disassociate themselves from a criminal, or do they just 
want to not be represented by an asshole?  Stallman has certainly demonstrated 
the importance of public figures STFU when the topic is something they don't 
understand.  

-- 
Howard Gibson 
hgib...@eol.ca
jhowardgib...@gmail.com
http://home.eol.ca/~hgibson
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Re: [GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[Michael Hill via talk]

On Wed, Mar 24, 2021 at 11:24 AM Alex Volkov via talk  wrote:

> Reading the replies to your post I feel disappointed that we have so many 
> reactionaries in our midst.

+1

> I support this idea.

+1

Mike
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Re: [GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[Russell Reiter via talk]

An incel is a personal self description as involuntary celebate. This is
not at all a linux topic.

How does Evan purport to know Richard Stallman is involuntarily celebate.
That would be the first question to be answered going forward.

On Wed, Mar 24, 2021, 11:24 AM Alex Volkov via talk, 
wrote:

> Hello Evan,
>
>
> Reading the replies to your post I feel disappointed that we have so many
> reactionaries in our midst.
>

Calling people reactionary for discussing Evans disparaging remarks about
RMS is hardly on topic either.

> I support this idea.
>
I'm going to cc email to the board and see if we can vote on board list or
> call a meeting.
>
Name calling is typically the last resort of ignorance and hardly worth
voting on.

Am I a reactionary incel for calling this out as both off topic linux wise?
and also pointing out that the code of conduct does not explicitly prohibit
reactionary expressionisim.

In the meantime It is also possible to sign the petition as an individual.
>
This is the only rational response to Evans inflamatory post which was most
likely authored out of covid boredom.

>
> Alex.
>
> On 2021-03-23 9:46 p.m., Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:
>
> ... hopefully, not for long.
>
>
> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/free-software-advocates-seek-removal-of-richard-stallman-and-entire-fsf-board/
>
> I propose that GTALUG as an organization add its name to the petition,
> already signed by a healthy cross section of the FOSS world.
>
> https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
>
> Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
> @evanleibovitch / @el56
>
> ---
> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
> Unsubscribe from this mailing list https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
>
> ---
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>
Russell

“Th’ newspaper does ivrything f’r us. It runs th’ polis foorce an’ th’
banks, commands th’ milishy, controls th’ ligislachure, baptizes th’ young,
marries th’ foolish, comforts th’ afflicted, afflicts th’ comfortable,
buries th’ dead an’ roasts thim aftherward.” F. P. Dunne
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Re: [GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[Alex Volkov via talk]

Hello Evan,


Reading the replies to your post I feel disappointed that we have so 
many reactionaries in our midst.



I support this idea.


I'm going to cc email to the board and see if we can vote on board list 
or call a meeting.


In the meantime It is also possible to sign the petition as an individual.


Alex.


On 2021-03-23 9:46 p.m., Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

... hopefully, not for long.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/free-software-advocates-seek-removal-of-richard-stallman-and-entire-fsf-board/ 



I propose that GTALUG as an organization add its name to the petition, 
already signed by a healthy cross section of the FOSS world.


https://rms-open-letter.github.io/ 

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch / @el56

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Re: [GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[Dhaval Giani via talk]

Hi,

Without taking names, I would suggest participants on this thread take
a look at https://gtalug.org/about/code-of-conduct/ .

Dhaval
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Re: [GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[Alvin Starr via talk]

I have a problem with this whole chain.

First off likening RMS's comments to the incel movement is kind of like 
the comments made by Gina Carano.


Way off the mark and amazingly incendiary but that does not mean that 
the author of the comments should largely have their life destroyed by a 
stupid-comment moment.


Now back to RMS.

I agree that he is likely not the best person to lead the FSF but 
without the FSF having a clear set of ethical guidelines to things that 
do not relate to free software then its going to be hard to find someone 
who is not offending to someone else.


Should he be teaching at MIT.
Well it sounds like there may be a better case there for getting rid of 
him for hitting on students but that is MIT's problem.


I have a problem with characterizing this as political correctness run amok.
That just throws the whole conversation out without critically looking 
at it which is political incorrectness run amok.


Having walked through the articles and comments it seams clear to me 
that some people have taken a bit of information and then extrapolated 
to find outrage.


I know a man who likes to beat women.

To the best of my knowledge he has never assaulted a woman and all the 
women he beats are willing participants, some of whom I also know.


Take the first comment alone and you have a right to be outraged.
The rest of the context changes it from an abuser to someone who has a 
"hobby"(not the right word but I can't think of a better one now) that 
many would find distasteful.


Lets cool down the outrage in both directions.

On 3/23/21 9:46 PM, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

... hopefully, not for long.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/free-software-advocates-seek-removal-of-richard-stallman-and-entire-fsf-board/

I propose that GTALUG as an organization add its name to the petition, 
already signed by a healthy cross section of the FOSS world.


https://rms-open-letter.github.io/

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch / @el56

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--
Alvin Starr   ||   land:  (647)478-6285
Netvel Inc.   ||   Cell:  (416)806-0133
al...@netvel.net  ||

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Re: [GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[Robert Brockway via talk]

On Wed, 24 Mar 2021, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:


tl;dr
IMHO the complete brouha is political correctness run amok!


Yes indeed.

I've been actively opposing political correctness for many years.  I am of 
course against signing the petition.  I wrote an article on the subject 
back when RMS originally resigned.  It's actually a response to the 
article written by Selam G that kicked off the entire episode.


https://avoiceformen.com/featured/a-great-man-in-the-free-and-open-source-community-falls/


Secondly the bigger the bureaucracy the greater the likelihood that it
is a refuge for the unable, the unwilling and/or the incompetent.
Sloth and indogence are rewarded rather than activity and output.


Haven't you heard, we live in a period of post meritocracy...

https://postmeritocracy.org/

The author of the above manifesto, Coraline Ada Ehmke, is also the author 
of the Contributor Covenant used by many FOSS projects.



This present direction is in process of destroying our society with
that end looming very very close.


Agreed.  It's time for the silent majority to be a little less silent.

Rob
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Re: [GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[ac via talk]

On Wed, 24 Mar 2021 06:17:37 -0500
o1bigtenor via talk  wrote:

> IMHO the complete brouha is political correctness run amok!
> I would request that we return to the matter at hand - - - - computers
> and computing and its tools and leave the
> political correctness to the bureaucratic elite for whom it has become
> a driving passion.
> One needs to remember that the language of political correctness was
> design to allow one to describe how to pick up a turd by its clean
> end.

+1

> Secondly the bigger the bureaucracy the greater the likelihood that it
> is a refuge for the unable, the unwilling and/or the incompetent.
> Sloth and indogence are rewarded rather than activity and output.
> This present direction is in process of destroying our society with
> that end looming very very close.
> 
> Regards
> ---
> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
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Re: [GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[William Witteman via talk]

The primary activity of this list is one of empathy - tech support.  We
often help one another, even if we're not having a problem.  RMS doesn't
have to be your problem to be an problem our little community should help
fix.

RMS is like an outdated library included in otherwise useful software - it
makes it basically unusable and unmaintainable.  If that software is the
first thing someone tries to use, they get so fed up with it that they
leave and never come back.

He is so toxic to be around that free software has lost many people forever
who would have been amazing.

What Evan is suggesting, and I am endorsing, is that we file a bug report.

On Wed., Mar. 24, 2021, 07:18 o1bigtenor via talk,  wrote:

> On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 8:46 PM Evan Leibovitch via talk
>  wrote:
> >
> > ... hopefully, not for long.
> >
> >
> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/free-software-advocates-seek-removal-of-richard-stallman-and-entire-fsf-board/
> >
> > I propose that GTALUG as an organization add its name to the petition,
> already signed by a healthy cross section of the FOSS world.
> >
> > https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
> >
>
> tl;dr
> IMHO the complete brouha is political correctness run amok!
>
> I would request that we return to the matter at hand - - - - computers
> and computing and its tools and leave the
> political correctness to the bureaucratic elite for whom it has become
> a driving passion.
> One needs to remember that the language of political correctness was
> design to allow one to describe how to pick up a turd by its clean
> end.
> Secondly the bigger the bureaucracy the greater the likelihood that it
> is a refuge for the unable, the unwilling and/or the incompetent.
> Sloth and indogence are rewarded rather than activity and output.
> This present direction is in process of destroying our society with
> that end looming very very close.
>
> Regards
> ---
> Post to this mailing list talk@gtalug.org
> Unsubscribe from this mailing list
> https://gtalug.org/mailman/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Tue, Mar 23, 2021 at 8:46 PM Evan Leibovitch via talk
 wrote:
>
> ... hopefully, not for long.
>
> https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/free-software-advocates-seek-removal-of-richard-stallman-and-entire-fsf-board/
>
> I propose that GTALUG as an organization add its name to the petition, 
> already signed by a healthy cross section of the FOSS world.
>
> https://rms-open-letter.github.io/
>

tl;dr
IMHO the complete brouha is political correctness run amok!

I would request that we return to the matter at hand - - - - computers
and computing and its tools and leave the
political correctness to the bureaucratic elite for whom it has become
a driving passion.
One needs to remember that the language of political correctness was
design to allow one to describe how to pick up a turd by its clean
end.
Secondly the bigger the bureaucracy the greater the likelihood that it
is a refuge for the unable, the unwilling and/or the incompetent.
Sloth and indogence are rewarded rather than activity and output.
This present direction is in process of destroying our society with
that end looming very very close.

Regards
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Re: [GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[Slackrat via talk]

William Park via talk  writes:

> Just find alternatives to Emacs and GNU, and be done with.  What's all
> the fuss?

+1

I Recommed that GTALUG not add their name to any such petitions 

-- 
William Henderson
aka Slackrat
http://billh.sdf.org/slackware.jpg
9HS5203 ON HamSphere Ham Radio
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Re: [GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[William Park via talk]

Just find alternatives to Emacs and GNU, and be done with.  What's all 
the fuss?


On 3/23/21 9:46 PM, Evan Leibovitch via talk wrote:

... hopefully, not for long.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/free-software-advocates-seek-removal-of-richard-stallman-and-entire-fsf-board/

I propose that GTALUG as an organization add its name to the petition, 
already signed by a healthy cross section of the FOSS world.


https://rms-open-letter.github.io/

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch / @el56

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[GTALUG] The FOSS world's most famous incel is back...

[Evan Leibovitch via talk]

... hopefully, not for long.

https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2021/03/free-software-advocates-seek-removal-of-richard-stallman-and-entire-fsf-board/

I propose that GTALUG as an organization add its name to the petition,
already signed by a healthy cross section of the FOSS world.

https://rms-open-letter.github.io/

Evan Leibovitch, Toronto Canada
@evanleibovitch / @el56
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