Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 06:35:59PM -0400, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> My Sun 3/60 has 24 slots.  But the largest memory module that it will
> accept is 1MiB (note: not 1GiB).  So more isn't always better :-)
> 
> As memory systems get faster, fan-out and signal path length matter
> more.  So 4 is apparently the limit for "unbuffered" memory on one PC
> memory bus these days.

The limit is 2 these days.  But dual channel makes you have 4 slots on
basic systems (Core i9 level machines have 4 channels and hence 8 slots).

> If you have multiple processors on a motherboard, they probably have a
> separate bus for each processor so you get 4 slots per processor.

Well the CPUs that allow that these days are now at 6 memory channels
per CPU (ie the Xeon Silver line).

Putting 1.5TB ram in a server seems to be perfectly doable these days,
if you have a lot of cash.

-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 03:59:44PM -0500, o1bigtenor via talk wrote:
> Not the OP but  - - - - one issue I'm seeing - - - my main system (its over
> 6 years old)
> has 8 slots for ram. Almost none of the newer mobos have that many.
> (Just one point for where newer isn't always 'better' (whatever that means!
> - - grin).)

Faster memory has made putting that many dimms per channel a problem.
New servers have even dropped to two dimms per channel, while they used
to allow 3 per channel (of course when they went from 4 to 6 channels
at the same time, at least the number of slots stayed the same).

When ram was slow, having 4 dimms on one channel was no problem.

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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 07:43:39PM -0400, Anthony de Boer via talk wrote:
> That'd be a totally brute-force solution.  If the kernel pushed all dirty
> pages into swap then there should only be the page tables and other core
> stuff needing to go out, sleep, and be read back in before it could start
> paging the rest back as needed.  Being a tad more aggressive about
> page-cleaning during normal runtime might even help it suspend faster.
> 
> I'd thought there was kernel suspend support already, in fact, not just
> hardware/firmware versions of it, but lack of a nice laptop and being
> the sort of person who crypts my swap partition mean I've never had the
> occasion to try it.

Well I generally don't suspend linux.  I mainly suspend windows, and it
is not very smart about it.

-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 5:35 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <
talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

> | From: o1bigtenor via talk 
>
> | Not the OP but  - - - - one issue I'm seeing - - - my main system (its
> over
> | 6 years old)
> | has 8 slots for ram. Almost none of the newer mobos have that many.
> | (Just one point for where newer isn't always 'better' (whatever that
> means!
> | - - grin).)
>
> My Sun 3/60 has 24 slots.  But the largest memory module that it will
> accept is 1MiB (note: not 1GiB).  So more isn't always better :-)
>
> As memory systems get faster, fan-out and signal path length matter
> more.  So 4 is apparently the limit for "unbuffered" memory on one PC
> memory bus these days.
>
> If you have multiple processors on a motherboard, they probably have a
> separate bus for each processor so you get 4 slots per processor.
>
> If you have a big server, you use buffered memory (probably with ECC too)
> and can have lots* of RAM sockets.  With buffering, you lose speed but
> gain fan-out.
>
> Complicating this is the market segmentation games that Intel is
> playing.  Apparently you pay a lot for a Xeon processor that has enough
> address lines.  AMD Epyc is smashing those limits so interesting
> things might happen.
>
> This supports 16 LRDIMM DDR4 modules, each could be 32GiB (I think).
> 2TiB in total (that's 16 x 128 GiB, so I'm missing something).
> 
>
> In the good old days, bulk dynamic RAM chips were 1-bit wide so if
> your bus was 32-bits wide, you could drive 32 chips with no fan-out on
> the data lines.  Now RAM chips are typically 8-bits wide, modules are
> 64-bit wide, and busses are 64-bit wide, so fan-out is a larger
> problem.
>
> * "lots" is a technical term meaning more than four, but I don't know
> how many
>

OK - - - if I had been referring to server boards I wouldn't have commented
but as
I was talking about desktops - - - well - - - my point still stands. IIRC
when I last
looked (a couple months now) all the desktop boards were topping out at 4
ram slots.

Dee
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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[Anthony de Boer via talk]

D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk wrote:
> I recommend using a USB keyboard and mouse.  Unless you are a crazy gamer.

Or have a real keyboard from 1989 still going strong.

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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[Anthony de Boer via talk]

Lennart Sorensen via talk wrote:
> 100MB/s disk speed (if lucky) and 24000MB ram = at least 240 seconds to
> write ram to disk.
> 
> Resume was equally painful.  It was faster to shutdown and boot normally
> and open my programs again.

That'd be a totally brute-force solution.  If the kernel pushed all dirty
pages into swap then there should only be the page tables and other core
stuff needing to go out, sleep, and be read back in before it could start
paging the rest back as needed.  Being a tad more aggressive about
page-cleaning during normal runtime might even help it suspend faster.

I'd thought there was kernel suspend support already, in fact, not just
hardware/firmware versions of it, but lack of a nice laptop and being
the sort of person who crypts my swap partition mean I've never had the
occasion to try it.

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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: o1bigtenor via talk 

| Not the OP but  - - - - one issue I'm seeing - - - my main system (its over
| 6 years old)
| has 8 slots for ram. Almost none of the newer mobos have that many.
| (Just one point for where newer isn't always 'better' (whatever that means!
| - - grin).)

My Sun 3/60 has 24 slots.  But the largest memory module that it will
accept is 1MiB (note: not 1GiB).  So more isn't always better :-)

As memory systems get faster, fan-out and signal path length matter
more.  So 4 is apparently the limit for "unbuffered" memory on one PC
memory bus these days.

If you have multiple processors on a motherboard, they probably have a
separate bus for each processor so you get 4 slots per processor.

If you have a big server, you use buffered memory (probably with ECC too)
and can have lots* of RAM sockets.  With buffering, you lose speed but
gain fan-out.

Complicating this is the market segmentation games that Intel is
playing.  Apparently you pay a lot for a Xeon processor that has enough
address lines.  AMD Epyc is smashing those limits so interesting
things might happen.

This supports 16 LRDIMM DDR4 modules, each could be 32GiB (I think).
2TiB in total (that's 16 x 128 GiB, so I'm missing something).


In the good old days, bulk dynamic RAM chips were 1-bit wide so if
your bus was 32-bits wide, you could drive 32 chips with no fan-out on
the data lines.  Now RAM chips are typically 8-bits wide, modules are
64-bit wide, and busses are 64-bit wide, so fan-out is a larger
problem.

* "lots" is a technical term meaning more than four, but I don't know
how many
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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[o1bigtenor via talk]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 2:18 PM, D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk <
talk@gtalug.org> wrote:

> | From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 
>
> | At long last I have created a final build recipe for my new desktop PC
> | to run debian Linux. Replacing an ancient Dell PC running WIndows XP:
>
> The i3-8100 is faster, cheaper, newer and has better graphics hardware
> than the i5-6500.  Why not use it?  Or an even faster "8th gen"
> processor?
>
> Perhaps the motherboards are more expensive.  I haven't looked.  But they
> are likely to have a few more modern features.
>

Not the OP but  - - - - one issue I'm seeing - - - my main system (its over
6 years old)
has 8 slots for ram. Almost none of the newer mobos have that many.
(Just one point for where newer isn't always 'better' (whatever that means!
- - grin).)

Dee
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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 

| Comments welcome.

If you are worried about USB keyboard/mouse support in your OS, you
should be also worry about NVMe / M.2 support.  It's newer.

Your old Windows probably won't support it.



But you could boot old stuff off of the hard drive.  So this isn't a
disaster.
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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: "Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk" 

| At long last I have created a final build recipe for my new desktop PC 
| to run debian Linux. Replacing an ancient Dell PC running WIndows XP:

The i3-8100 is faster, cheaper, newer and has better graphics hardware
than the i5-6500.  Why not use it?  Or an even faster "8th gen"
processor?

Perhaps the motherboards are more expensive.  I haven't looked.  But they 
are likely to have a few more modern features.
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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[D. Hugh Redelmeier via talk]

| From: Lennart Sorensen via talk 

| On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 09:50:42AM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
| > *** I know that PS/2 is an ancient interface. I only chose PS/2 because it 
is my understanding that a PS/2 keyboard and mouse combination is better 
supported and earlier, during the actual Linux boot process, than a USB 
keyboard and mouse combination. So PS/2 keyboard and mouse offer more liklihood 
of functionality when there are Linux boot problems.
| 
| The BIOS emulates PS/2 for USB mouse/keyboard just fine and should
| not cause any issues.  But yes it is slightly more complex to use a
| USB device.  I don't remember the last time I dealt with a PS/2 device.
| I don't miss them.  I don't think I have had a problem with a USB keyboard
| for a decade.  USB mice are never a problem since you never need a mouse
| unless the system is actually booted normally, so only for a keyboard is
| PS/2 at all interesting.  Well unless you are one of those extreme gamers
| that care about the potentially lower latency of PS/2 mice over USB mice.

(I may have some of this wrong.  These details are considered too
complicated to explain to users so we are just supposed to assume
everything just works.)

- firmware isn't BIOS these days.  In fact, that was a misnomer on the
  PC since day 1.  It's a carry over from the CP/M days on Intel 8080
  processors.  Now it is called, uhh, firmware.  Or UEFI firmware.

- UEFI firmware usually (but not always) includes a CSM (Compatibility
  Support Module) to emulate BIOS for the sake of old OSes.  If
  present in the firmware, it usually can be enabled or disabled in
  the firmware config menus.  As far as I know, all stand-alone
  motherboards have a CSM (Win 10 tablets often do not).

- System Management Mode is a little known feature of all Intel and
  AMD x86 processors since the 486 and the Am486 25 years ago.  It
  allows the firmware to keep some control after booting the OS.  The
  OS has no control over this.

- SMM is used (among other things) to capture USB keyboard and mouse
  events and turn them into simulated PS/2 events.  This is usually
  optional but default behaviour on motherboards.  In effect, this
  emulation appears to be a hardware feature.

- One other limitation of USB and not PS/2 is that there is a limit to
  how many keys can be pressed at once (n-key rollover) and sensed
  properly.  The limit is based on how many key events can be recorded
  in a single USB packet.  But the limit is something like 6.  Surely
  more than enough.

So: mouse emulation and BIOS emulation are behind the back of the OS.
This means legacy OSes should have no trouble with these features.

I recommend using a USB keyboard and mouse.  Unless you are a crazy gamer.
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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 02:47:26PM +, Ivan Avery Frey via talk wrote:
> Some motherboards would interleave their memory accesses. I don't know if
> that's true today.

I don't think anyone makes one today that doesn't.

-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 09:50:42AM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> *** I know that PS/2 is an ancient interface. I only chose PS/2 because it is 
> my understanding that a PS/2 keyboard and mouse combination is better 
> supported and earlier, during the actual Linux boot process, than a USB 
> keyboard and mouse combination. So PS/2 keyboard and mouse offer more 
> liklihood of functionality when there are Linux boot problems.

The BIOS emulates PS/2 for USB mouse/keyboard just fine and should
not cause any issues.  But yes it is slightly more complex to use a
USB device.  I don't remember the last time I dealt with a PS/2 device.
I don't miss them.  I don't think I have had a problem with a USB keyboard
for a decade.  USB mice are never a problem since you never need a mouse
unless the system is actually booted normally, so only for a keyboard is
PS/2 at all interesting.  Well unless you are one of those extreme gamers
that care about the potentially lower latency of PS/2 mice over USB mice.

> *** Confession: Actually, the choice of a single 16 GB memory DIMM came about 
> at the end of an arduous and desperate search for ANY memory available in 
> Canada at reasonable price, that is listed on the Asus motherboard's memory 
> QVL (qualified vendor list).
> 
> *** But yes, I'm not unhappy to be keeping the full 64GB address space open. 
> 
> *** Is it just a superstition that I read somewhere, that there is there a 
> memory access speed advantage, to using more DIMMs to get the desired total 
> memory size ?? For example, that a dual-DIMM 2x8GB configuration provides 
> faster memory access than a single DIMM 1x16GB ??

It is much faster because all CPUs today have at least two memory channels
(some have 6 now).  Having equal memory on both channels doubles your
memory bandwidth.  Now for some uses memory bandwidth isn't that
important, for other uses it is.

-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Wed, Mar 28, 2018 at 09:51:34AM -0400, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:
> Lennart, thanks for reply.
> 
> My remarks below.
> 
> Steve
> 
> - Original Message - 
>   From: Lennart Sorensen 
>   To: Giles Orr ; GTALUG Talk 
>   Cc: Steve Petrie, P.Eng. 
>   Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 12:27 PM
>   Subject: Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker 
> Recipe;
> 
> 
>   On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 12:14:57PM -0400, Giles Orr via talk wrote:
>   > It's probably too late to convince you of this (as I suspect it would
> 
>   Well I discovered on my laptop a few years ago that suspend to disk takes
>   a very long time when you put 24GB ram in a laptop and use a 5400rpm disk.
> 
>   An SSD makes it much better of course.
> 
> *** Nice tip. I'll be sure to use the SSD not only for fast software loading, 
> but also for suspend workspace.

It was obvious in restrospect of course:

100MB/s disk speed (if lucky) and 24000MB ram = at least 240 seconds to
write ram to disk.

Resume was equally painful.  It was faster to shutdown and boot normally
and open my programs again.

-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[Giles Orr via talk]

On 28 March 2018 at 09:50, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk 
wrote:

> Giles, thanks for reply.
>
> My remarks, questions below.
>
> Steve
>
> - Original Message -
>
> *From:* Giles Orr 
> *To:* Steve Petrie, P.Eng.  ; GTALUG Talk
> 
> *Sent:* Tuesday, March 27, 2018 12:14 PM
> *Subject:* Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux -
> PCPartPicker Recipe;
>
> On 27 March 2018 at 09:08, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk 
> wrote:
>
>> *Greetings To GTALUG,*
>>
>> At long last I have created a final build recipe for my new desktop PC to
>> run debian Linux. Replacing an ancient Dell PC running WIndows XP:
>>
>>- https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/user/Steve_Petrie/saved/#view=krFNNG
>>
>>  The configuration is an Asus LGA1151 socket motherboard with Intel
>> i5-6500 CPU and 16 GB DDR4 memory..
>>
>> A dialup modem remains to be added: US Robotics USR5637 V.92 USB Faxmodem
>>
>> Comments welcome.
>>
>> * * *
>> * * *
>>
>> My plan is to be ordering the parts by Friday 30 March or or Monday 2
>> April at the latest. The HP PS/2 keyboard and HP PS/2 mouse are already
>> ordered (from PC-Canada) but that order is still on hold, pending addition
>> of items to the order..
>>
>
> It's probably too late to convince you of this (as I suspect it would
> strongly imply a move to a newer and more expensive processor) but getting
> USB-C and USB3.1 on the motherboard would be good.  You can _probably_ get
> a PCI-E card later, but I wonder if it will fully support USB-C's
> relatively complex alt-modes and etc.  Of course, it may not support them
> on the motherboard either, but I think it's worth a try.
>
>
>
> ***Good points. I will look into a possible motherboard upgrade to add
> USB-C and USB3.1.
>
> I'd also encourage you - fairly strongly - to not get PS/2 accessories.
> You're already encountering one of the problems, trying to plug two devices
> into one port - I suspect that won't go well for you.  Not only is USB much
> more versatile, it's much easier to "split," and add more ports.
>
>
>
> ***
> *** I know that PS/2 is an ancient interface. I only chose PS/2 because it
> is my understanding that a PS/2 keyboard and mouse combination is better
> supported and earlier, during the actual Linux boot process, than a USB
> keyboard and mouse combination. So PS/2 keyboard and mouse offer more
> liklihood of functionality when there are Linux boot problems.
>
> *** I also understand that USB keyboards and mice, take far more and more
> complex software drivers to be loaded before keyboard and mouse
> functionality appears. So a non-bootong Linux may not offer a functional
> USB keyboard / mouse service, whereas a PS/2 cpmbination might already be
> alive and functional.
>
> *** If I'm wrong on this PS/2 versus USB keyboard / mouse
> boot-friendliness business, I will happily switch to using  USB keyboard /
> mouse.
>
> And finally, I'm in awe of your memory strategy.  But I totally agree: max
> out every slot - when you can afford it.  That's the way to go.  And 16G is
> already a decent baseline.
>
>
> *** Confession: Actually, the choice of a single 16 GB memory DIMM came
> about at the end of an arduous and desperate search for ANY memory
> available in Canada at reasonable price, that is listed on the Asus
> motherboard's memory QVL (qualified vendor list).
>
> *** But yes, I'm not unhappy to be keeping the full 64GB address space
> open.
>
> *** Is it just a superstition that I read somewhere, that there is there a
> memory access speed advantage, to using more DIMMs to get the desired total
> memory size ?? For example, that a dual-DIMM 2x8GB configuration provides
> faster memory access than a single DIMM 1x16GB ??
>

The last time I ran into a motherboard that didn't want to support USB
keyboards at the BIOS level, it was 15 years old (or older).  I have a fair
number of antique computers around my place, so I think this is a fairly
measured judgement ...  I don't think this is a problem with modern
motherboards.  Don't you have an old PS/2 keyboard from your previous
computer?  Keep it around for the "just in case Giles is wrong" (it
happens).

I believe that there's still some advantage to having matched pairs of
DIMMs, which have to be in the correct, matching slots.  But I've also had
the impression that this offers only a relatively small advantage.  But I
am NOT an expert an expert on this subject: I hope someone else can answer
this in more detail.

-- 
Giles
https://www.gilesorr.com/
giles...@gmail.com
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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[Ivan Avery Frey via talk]

***
> *** I know that PS/2 is an ancient interface. I only chose PS/2 because it
> is my understanding that a PS/2 keyboard and mouse combination is better
> supported and earlier, during the actual Linux boot process, than a USB
> keyboard and mouse combination. So PS/2 keyboard and mouse offer more
> liklihood of functionality when there are Linux boot problems.
>
> *** I also understand that USB keyboards and mice, take far more and more
> complex software drivers to be loaded before keyboard and mouse
> functionality appears. So a non-bootong Linux may not offer a functional
> USB keyboard / mouse service, whereas a PS/2 cpmbination might already be
> alive and functional.
>
> *** If I'm wrong on this PS/2 versus USB keyboard / mouse
> boot-friendliness business, I will happily switch to using  USB keyboard /
> mouse.
>

I would echo Giles advice on not getting any PS/2 accessories. There were
some motherboards that had some keyboard legacy setting in their firmware.
I might be completely ignorant on this matter, but I believe the setting
was for OSes that didn't have USB drivers.

>
> *** Is it just a superstition that I read somewhere, that there is there a
> memory access speed advantage, to using more DIMMs to get the desired total
> memory size ?? For example, that a dual-DIMM 2x8GB configuration provides
> faster memory access than a single DIMM 1x16GB ??
>

Some motherboards would interleave their memory accesses. I don't know if
that's true today.
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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Giles, thanks for reply.

My remarks, questions below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
  From: Giles Orr 
  To: Steve Petrie, P.Eng. ; GTALUG Talk 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 12:14 PM
  Subject: Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker 
Recipe;


  On 27 March 2018 at 09:08, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk  
wrote:

Greetings To GTALUG,

At long last I have created a final build recipe for my new desktop PC to 
run debian Linux. Replacing an ancient Dell PC running WIndows XP:
  a.. https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/user/Steve_Petrie/saved/#view=krFNNG
 The configuration is an Asus LGA1151 socket motherboard with Intel i5-6500 
CPU and 16 GB DDR4 memory..

A dialup modem remains to be added: US Robotics USR5637 V.92 USB Faxmodem

Comments welcome.

* * *
* * *

My plan is to be ordering the parts by Friday 30 March or or Monday 2 April 
at the latest. The HP PS/2 keyboard and HP PS/2 mouse are already ordered (from 
PC-Canada) but that order is still on hold, pending addition of items to the 
order..


  It's probably too late to convince you of this (as I suspect it would 
strongly imply a move to a newer and more expensive processor) but getting 
USB-C and USB3.1 on the motherboard would be good.  You can _probably_ get a 
PCI-E card later, but I wonder if it will fully support USB-C's relatively 
complex alt-modes and etc.  Of course, it may not support them on the 
motherboard either, but I think it's worth a try.



***Good points. I will look into a possible motherboard upgrade to add USB-C 
and USB3.1.

  I'd also encourage you - fairly strongly - to not get PS/2 accessories.  
You're already encountering one of the problems, trying to plug two devices 
into one port - I suspect that won't go well for you.  Not only is USB much 
more versatile, it's much easier to "split," and add more ports.



***
*** I know that PS/2 is an ancient interface. I only chose PS/2 because it is 
my understanding that a PS/2 keyboard and mouse combination is better supported 
and earlier, during the actual Linux boot process, than a USB keyboard and 
mouse combination. So PS/2 keyboard and mouse offer more liklihood of 
functionality when there are Linux boot problems.

*** I also understand that USB keyboards and mice, take far more and more 
complex software drivers to be loaded before keyboard and mouse functionality 
appears. So a non-bootong Linux may not offer a functional USB keyboard / mouse 
service, whereas a PS/2 cpmbination might already be alive and functional.

*** If I'm wrong on this PS/2 versus USB keyboard / mouse boot-friendliness 
business, I will happily switch to using  USB keyboard / mouse.
  And finally, I'm in awe of your memory strategy.  But I totally agree: max 
out every slot - when you can afford it.  That's the way to go.  And 16G is 
already a decent baseline.

*** Confession: Actually, the choice of a single 16 GB memory DIMM came about 
at the end of an arduous and desperate search for ANY memory available in 
Canada at reasonable price, that is listed on the Asus motherboard's memory QVL 
(qualified vendor list).

*** But yes, I'm not unhappy to be keeping the full 64GB address space open. 

*** Is it just a superstition that I read somewhere, that there is there a 
memory access speed advantage, to using more DIMMs to get the desired total 
memory size ?? For example, that a dual-DIMM 2x8GB configuration provides 
faster memory access than a single DIMM 1x16GB ??

-- 

  Giles
  https://www.gilesorr.com/
  giles...@gmail.com---
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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Alex, thanks for reply.

My remarks below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
  From: Alex Volkov via talk 
  To: Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 12:23 PM
  Subject: Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker 
Recipe; 


  If you're willing to settle for a slightly smaller screen there's LG 23" IPS 
screen on sale for $150 

  https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824025346



*** Thx for the tip.
  If you're not planning on adding a video card, you can save some money by 
getting a case with 300W power supply.

*** Good point. Could definitely save some money here. Agree that the power 
supply is over-specified. But this intentional, being in keeping with the 24_7 
service duty ethos for the new PC. And I do want the expandability readily 
available with this larger power supply.

*** According to the PCPartPicker website, the current build recipe needs a 
maximum of around 170 W. So my reasonong is to allow for expansion bringing a 
doubling of the maximum power load, and still leave the power supply operating 
at only 66 percent of its maximum output capacity.

*** Also I understand that there can be a significant dropoff in quality and 
reliability with power supplies of maximum output less than around 550 W.

Alex.

On 2018-03-27 09:08 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:

Greetings To GTALUG,

At long last I have created a final build recipe for my new desktop PC to 
run debian Linux. Replacing an ancient Dell PC running WIndows XP:
  a.. https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/user/Steve_Petrie/saved/#view=krFNNG 
 The configuration is an Asus LGA1151 socket motherboard with Intel i5-6500 
CPU and 16 GB DDR4 memory..

A dialup modem remains to be added: US Robotics USR5637 V.92 USB Faxmodem

Comments welcome.

* * *
* * *

My plan is to be ordering the parts by Friday 30 March or or Monday 2 April 
at the latest. The HP PS/2 keyboard and HP PS/2 mouse are already ordered (from 
PC-Canada) but that order is still on hold, pending addition of items to the 
order..

Steve



 

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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk]

Lennart, thanks for reply.

My remarks below.

Steve

- Original Message - 
  From: Lennart Sorensen 
  To: Giles Orr ; GTALUG Talk 
  Cc: Steve Petrie, P.Eng. 
  Sent: Tuesday, March 27, 2018 12:27 PM
  Subject: Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker 
Recipe;


  On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 12:14:57PM -0400, Giles Orr via talk wrote:
  > It's probably too late to convince you of this (as I suspect it would

  Well I discovered on my laptop a few years ago that suspend to disk takes
  a very long time when you put 24GB ram in a laptop and use a 5400rpm disk.

  An SSD makes it much better of course.

*** Nice tip. I'll be sure to use the SSD not only for fast software loading, 
but also for suspend workspace.

-- 
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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[Lennart Sorensen via talk]

On Tue, Mar 27, 2018 at 12:14:57PM -0400, Giles Orr via talk wrote:
> It's probably too late to convince you of this (as I suspect it would
> strongly imply a move to a newer and more expensive processor) but getting
> USB-C and USB3.1 on the motherboard would be good.  You can _probably_ get
> a PCI-E card later, but I wonder if it will fully support USB-C's
> relatively complex alt-modes and etc.  Of course, it may not support them
> on the motherboard either, but I think it's worth a try.
> 
> I'd also encourage you - fairly strongly - to not get PS/2 accessories.
> You're already encountering one of the problems, trying to plug two devices
> into one port - I suspect that won't go well for you.  Not only is USB much
> more versatile, it's much easier to "split," and add more ports.
> 
> And finally, I'm in awe of your memory strategy.  But I totally agree: max
> out every slot - when you can afford it.  That's the way to go.  And 16G is
> already a decent baseline.

Well I discovered on my laptop a few years ago that suspend to disk takes
a very long time when you put 24GB ram in a laptop and use a 5400rpm disk.

An SSD makes it much better of course.

And my desktop machine can stick with 32GB, rather than maxing it out
at 64GB (well 128GB can be done with a special type of DIMM that I have
no idea how to get).

-- 
Len Sorensen
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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[Alex Volkov via talk]

If you're willing to settle for a slightly smaller screen there's LG 23" 
IPS screen on sale for $150


https://www.newegg.ca/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16824025346

If you're not planning on adding a video card, you can save some money 
by getting a case with 300W power supply.


Alex.

On 2018-03-27 09:08 AM, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk wrote:

*Greetings To GTALUG,*
At long last I have created a final build recipe for my new desktop PC 
to run debian Linux. Replacing an ancient Dell PC running WIndows XP:


  * https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/user/Steve_Petrie/saved/#view=krFNNG

 The configuration is an Asus LGA1151 socket motherboard with Intel 
i5-6500 CPU and 16 GB DDR4 memory..

A dialup modem remains to be added: US Robotics USR5637 V.92 USB Faxmodem
Comments welcome.
* * *
* * *
My plan is to be ordering the parts by Friday 30 March or or Monday 2 
April at the latest. The HP PS/2 keyboard and HP PS/2 mouse are 
already ordered (from PC-Canada) but that order is still on hold, 
pending addition of items to the order..

*Steve*


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Re: [GTALUG] New Deaktop PC -- To Run debian Linux - PCPartPicker Recipe;

[Giles Orr via talk]

On 27 March 2018 at 09:08, Steve Petrie, P.Eng. via talk 
wrote:

> *Greetings To GTALUG,*
>
> At long last I have created a final build recipe for my new desktop PC to
> run debian Linux. Replacing an ancient Dell PC running WIndows XP:
>
>- https://ca.pcpartpicker.com/user/Steve_Petrie/saved/#view=krFNNG
>
>  The configuration is an Asus LGA1151 socket motherboard with Intel
> i5-6500 CPU and 16 GB DDR4 memory..
>
> A dialup modem remains to be added: US Robotics USR5637 V.92 USB Faxmodem
>
> Comments welcome.
>
> * * *
> * * *
>
> My plan is to be ordering the parts by Friday 30 March or or Monday 2
> April at the latest. The HP PS/2 keyboard and HP PS/2 mouse are already
> ordered (from PC-Canada) but that order is still on hold, pending addition
> of items to the order..
>

It's probably too late to convince you of this (as I suspect it would
strongly imply a move to a newer and more expensive processor) but getting
USB-C and USB3.1 on the motherboard would be good.  You can _probably_ get
a PCI-E card later, but I wonder if it will fully support USB-C's
relatively complex alt-modes and etc.  Of course, it may not support them
on the motherboard either, but I think it's worth a try.

I'd also encourage you - fairly strongly - to not get PS/2 accessories.
You're already encountering one of the problems, trying to plug two devices
into one port - I suspect that won't go well for you.  Not only is USB much
more versatile, it's much easier to "split," and add more ports.

And finally, I'm in awe of your memory strategy.  But I totally agree: max
out every slot - when you can afford it.  That's the way to go.  And 16G is
already a decent baseline.

-- 
Giles
https://www.gilesorr.com/
giles...@gmail.com
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