[OSM-talk] OSM for Software Freedom Day

[Robert Schumann]

Hi all,

I'm writing on behalf of Software Freedom International, the organisation
that runs Software Freedom Day  (SFD). We
currently have a registration system for teams taking part in SFD that puts
a pin in the map for teams, and we'd like to migrate that system onto OSM.

The 2009 teams can be seen at
http://cgi.softwarefreedomday.org/2009/map.shtml, and uses Google Maps.

What we're looking for is a volunteer (or volunteers!) to work alongside our
technical team to make a slick, easy to use registration system - integrated
with the rest of our site - and a great-looking map to raise the profile of
software freedom. Apart from taking on responsibility for developing the
registration system and map, you'll be expected to attend regular IRC
meetings and coordinate your work with that of other SFI officers and board
members. The opportunity also exists to join the board and be involved in
developing our strategy.

If you think you're the right person, please send a CV or summary of
relevant experience to i...@softwarefreedomday.org (not this mailing list!),
with the words "Application: OSM mapping for SFD" in the email subject line.
The deadline for applications is 6 November 2009. Any questions regarding
this position should be directed to i...@softwarefreedomday.org (not this
mailing list!).

SFI is a 501(c)(3) non-profit company registered in New Hampshire, USA; all
SFI's members and officers are volunteers who do not receive any financial
remuneration for their contribution to SFI apart from approved expenses. We
have been organising SFD since 2004 and have supported events in over 90
countries since then, with help from sponsors and partners including
Canonical/Ubuntu, Sun, Google, IBM, Red Hat/Fedora, Linux Magazine and the
Free Software Foundation.

Robert Schumann
President, Software Freedom International
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon (lake) not rendering

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Rahkonen Jukka wrote:
> I meant "Do all the polygon parts get their correct names in
> rendering, 

There are multiple renderers and they generally don't agree on how to 
handle multipolygons.

I would assume that most can deal with a hole of a multipolygon having 
its own identity (e.g. hole in forest tagged as farm).

Most will probably not be able to derive the identity of something from 
the kind of polygon surrounding it - i.e. you will probably have to tag 
an island as such, and not count on the renderer knowing that everything 
that is a hole in a water polygon will automatically be an island.

There is also a problem with touching holes; if you have a forest and in 
the forest there is a farm and a lake next to each other, then some 
people draw a forest with two holes, whereas standard simple feature 
geometry does not allow touching holes (and anyway, as you correctly 
say, for export e.g. in shapefiles, extra polygons would have to be 
created for the holes).

A further problem arises when the hole boundary consists of multiple 
ways, something that is allowed for advanced multipolygons, but you 
would not be able to place the name of the island (or whatever) in this 
scenario.

Bye
Frederik

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Coastline error checker shapefiles

[David Groom]

Coastline error checker shapefiles are available at 
http://hypercube.telascience.org/~kleptog/

Is there any way that these can include self-intersection  and inverted 
polygon type errors?

Regards

David 




___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Name, owner, and tenant of building

[Ed Avis]

Building 38446590 is shown in the centre of this map:


There are several pieces of information which might be rendered on the map,
or included in name searches:

   - The building is called 116, Pall Mall; it has no name apart from that.
 Obviously it can be tagged with addr:housenumber=116, addr:street=Pall 
Mall.

   - The building is the home of the Institute of Directors and it would be
 good to show that on the map.  Previously this was done with 'name'.
 But that seems wrong, since this is not the name of the building.

   - The IoD is not even the owner of the building.  It is owned by the
 Regency Crown Estate, and the IoD is just the most important tenant.

   - It was formerly used by the United Service Club, a servicemen's club.

   - There is an official website for the building and also one for its
 main tenant the IoD, plus a Wikipedia page for the IoD.

The trouble is that tags such as 'name', 'url', 'website' and 'wikipedia' are
too general.  They don't make a distinction between the building, its owner
and its tenants.  So far I have tagged owner=Regency Crown Estate,
user=Institute of Directors, but neither of these is rendered on the Mapnik
slippy map, so it's very tempting just to resort to 'name'.

Is there a convention for disentangling these things?

-- 
Ed Avis 


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Howto calibrate aerial images for OpenStreetMap?

[Valent Turkovic]

How can I calibrate aerial photos or old maps?

If someone has experience with his own aerial imagery or old (out of
copyright) maps please share your experience.
I looked on OSM wiki and there is really little, almost none
information on how to do this.

I'm about to get some aerial photos that a friend of mine who is a
pilot will donate them to OSM.

I looked on WIKI:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Out-of-copyright_maps#How_to_use_old_maps
but there is says that there is a help section on gpsu.co.uk website
that has instruction for calibrating bitmap images. I don't see it
anywhere on that site :(

Any help is much appreciated.

Cheers,
Valent.

-- 
pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic, msn: valent.turko...@hotmail.com

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon (lake) not rendering

[Anthony]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 5:24 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> A further problem arises when the hole boundary consists of multiple
> ways, something that is allowed for advanced multipolygons, but you
> would not be able to place the name of the island (or whatever) in this
> scenario.

You could if you used a second multipolygon with the "hole" ways as
the outer, right?

Do advanced multipolygons have to have an inner?  If so you could
always use a boundary relation.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Howto calibrate aerial images for OpenStreetMap?

[Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists)]

Take a look at how the 1:25,000 UK mapping is being rectified. Link on that
out of copyright page you quoted.

Cheers

Andy



>-Original Message-
>From: talk-boun...@openstreetmap.org [mailto:talk-
>boun...@openstreetmap.org] On Behalf Of Valent Turkovic
>Sent: 26 October 2009 12:21 PM
>To: Talk Openstreetmap
>Subject: [OSM-talk] Howto calibrate aerial images for OpenStreetMap?
>
>How can I calibrate aerial photos or old maps?
>
>If someone has experience with his own aerial imagery or old (out of
>copyright) maps please share your experience.
>I looked on OSM wiki and there is really little, almost none
>information on how to do this.
>
>I'm about to get some aerial photos that a friend of mine who is a
>pilot will donate them to OSM.
>
>I looked on WIKI:
>http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Out-of-
>copyright_maps#How_to_use_old_maps
>but there is says that there is a help section on gpsu.co.uk website
>that has instruction for calibrating bitmap images. I don't see it
>anywhere on that site :(
>
>Any help is much appreciated.
>
>Cheers,
>Valent.
>
>--
>pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt
>http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
>linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
>registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
>ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic, msn: valent.turko...@hotmail.com
>
>___
>talk mailing list
>talk@openstreetmap.org
>http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Howto calibrate aerial images for OpenStreetMap?

[Michael Buege]

Zitat Valent Turkovic:

> How can I calibrate aerial photos or old maps?
> 
[...]
> 
> Any help is much appreciated.

Re: [OSM-talk] Howto calibrate aerial images for OpenStreetMap?

[David Groom]

- Original Message - 
  From: Valent Turkovic 
  To: Talk Openstreetmap 
  Sent: Monday, October 26, 2009 12:21 PM
  Subject: [OSM-talk] Howto calibrate aerial images for OpenStreetMap?



  How can I calibrate aerial photos or old maps?

  If someone has experience with his own aerial imagery or old (out of
  copyright) maps please share your experience.
  I looked on OSM wiki and there is really little, almost none
  information on how to do this.

  I'm about to get some aerial photos that a friend of mine who is a
  pilot will donate them to OSM.

  I looked on WIKI:
  http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Out-of-copyright_maps#How_to_use_old_maps
  but there is says that there is a help section on gpsu.co.uk website
  that has instruction for calibrating bitmap images. I don't see it
  anywhere on that site :(

  Any help is much appreciated.

  Cheers,
  Valent.


Have a look at this thread and see if its of any help

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk-gb/2009-September/004579.html

David

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] FW: Crown copyright dates ( OS Reference 72267)

[Ed Avis]

Andy Robinson (blackadder-lists  writes:

>>>The crux point is what triggers a new copyright date.

>>>"A reprint or new impression without any substantial changes to the text
>>>would not constitute a new copyright work."

>>'Minor changes' is not the same as 'no substantial changes'.  If
>>they have revised the map based on resurveying the area, even if just
>>to add a couple of new roads or a housing development, or to correct
>>mistakes, it's pretty clear that a new copyright period comes into
>>existence.
>
>How so? Can you provide some evidence of why this is the case?

A couple of reasons come to mind.  Firstly, that doing some new surveying
work must mean that the new data has a copyright date starting from now.
The fact that the area had previously been surveyed and this was a repeat
visit surely wouldn't mean it is not copyrightable.  So, then, if you have
a mixture of old and new survey data, the mixture taken as a whole will
not enter the public domain until the copyright on the new additions expires.
It is impractical to buy an OS map and manually excise any additions
made after a certain date - to do that, you would need an old map to refer
to, and if so why not just use the old map?  It would also be hard to
convince a court that you did trace from a map containing both old and new
survey data, but scrupulously restricted yourself (somehow) to only
tracing from the part that is older than 50 years.

Also, I think the guideline cited has led to a false analogy with literary
works.  The intention is to say that a reprint with only a spelling correction,
say, or a re-typesetting of the existing text, or perhaps the addition of
chapter headings, does not create a new copyright.  By this argument you
might say that if the OS published a map in black and white and then later
colorized it by some purely mechanical, no-thought-required process, the new
map would not have a later copyright date.

However, if they have added real new information, such as new roads or even
correcting the position of old ones, this is more analogous to adding new
sentences to an article or even adding a new minor character to a story.
In such cases the changes may be 'minor', but they are certainly *substantial*,
and by a sweat-of-the-brow test would be subject to copyright.

>Well, the question is surely whether the changes made were substantial or
>not. Almost without question the reprints of the 1:25k sheets between major
>republications (and new published dates) of the same map are stated to be
>either minor corrections or minor changes. Mostly this I believe is road
>alignment adjustment and occasionally a new road here and there.

Yes.  But 'minor' is not the same as 'not substantial'.

To my eyes, a 'not substantial' change might be changing typeface or
perhaps correcting an obvious spelling error - but fixing the alignment
of maps is certainly not an easy task, and adding new roads requires work
to survey them.

>But I'm not convinced that the OS has ruled correctly and so it's worth
>further discussion and if necessary appeal.

Well, they do not 'rule' on anything.  They will tell you their opinion,
and in cases where the law is pretty unambiguous (such as the length of
the copyright being 50 years) their opinion will just confirm what the law
says, but is still useful just to check.  However in cases like this the
OS's opinion is likely to be whatever interpretation of the law best
suits their interests.  They are unlikely to change it unless you can
give real evidence that they are wrong (and ultimately, be able to put
a test case through the courts).

>>Would it not be better to get a legal opinion?
>
>If you are offering to pay for one that would be great.

I wonder how much it would cost.

-- 
Ed Avis 


___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-t...@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon (lake) not rendering

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Anthony wrote:
>> A further problem arises when the hole boundary consists of multiple
>> ways, something that is allowed for advanced multipolygons, but you
>> would not be able to place the name of the island (or whatever) in this
>> scenario.
> 
> You could if you used a second multipolygon with the "hole" ways as
> the outer, right?

That is correct.

> Do advanced multipolygons have to have an inner? 

No.

> If so you could always use a boundary relation.

Yes; a boundary relation is just an advanced multipolygon by another 
name. People have even suggested to drop the relation type "boundary" 
altogether and name these "multipolygon" as well (the fact that it is a 
boundary can be seen from the bondary=something tag anyway).

Personally, I am hoping that we will (re)introduce a proper area data 
type some day because even though the multipolygons were a good idea at 
the time, they do seem a bit clumsy now.

Bye
Frederik


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Howto calibrate aerial images for OpenStreetMap?

[Valent Turkovic]

On Mon, 26 Oct 2009 13:41:12 +, Andy Robinson \(blackadder-lists\)
wrote:

> Take a look at how the 1:25,000 UK mapping is being rectified. Link on
> that out of copyright page you quoted.

I hope instructions on that page get better exposure as a separate 
"Calibrate aerial images" page on wiki (or something similar).

Thank you for heads up!



-- 
pratite me na twitteru - www.twitter.com/valentt
http://kernelreloaded.blog385.com/
linux, blog, anime, spirituality, windsurf, wireless
registered as user #367004 with the Linux Counter, http://counter.li.org.
ICQ: 2125241, Skype: valent.turkovic


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon (lake) not rendering

[Rahkonen Jukka]

Frederik Ramm wrote:

> Personally, I am hoping that we will (re)introduce a proper 
> area data type some day because even though the multipolygons 
> were a good idea at the time, they do seem a bit clumsy now.

I agree.  Areas will come ever more complicated with data imports and
tracing from high resolution images. I checked that the biggest lake
polygon in the official Finnish mapping data has 287273 vertices, 5484
islands and the total length of this simple polygon is more that 5276
kilometers. It would be quite a beast as OSM multipolygon relation.

-Jukka-

> Bye
> Frederik
> 
> 

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon (lake) not rendering

[Anthony]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 9:53 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> Anthony wrote:
>> Do advanced multipolygons have to have an inner?
>
> No.

Great.

> Personally, I am hoping that we will (re)introduce a proper area data type
> some day because even though the multipolygons were a good idea at the time,
> they do seem a bit clumsy now.

What would be the advantage of an area data type?  Would this be a
separate table or just a type of relation?

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon (lake) not rendering

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Anthony wrote:
> What would be the advantage of an area data type?  Would this be a
> separate table or just a type of relation?

Exactly what advantage(s) it has of course depends on how it is designed 
and implemented in the end.

The problem with our current approach is that we are mixing layers in 
our model in at least two places. One, completely apart from 
multipolygons, is the way we use a closed way to model a polygon - or 
not (closed way with natural=forest ==> polygon, closed way with 
junction=roundabout ==> linear ring). This means that it is impossible 
to "blindly" convert our data into, say, a shape file; you have to 
actually look at the tags and understand them to do this, even if you 
didn't actually want to meddle with tags.

This is as if you asked someone to transfer an old VHS tape to DVD and 
they say: But I can't to that without knowing what kind of film you have 
on there! (Well ok, lame comparison, but you get the drift.)

The other is multipolygons, where we (ab)use the relation object which 
is *normally* used to model a relation between several primitives, to 
actually construct a primitive in the first place. Constructing the 
geo-object and putting it in relation to other objects should really 
happen on separate layers.

I would also hope that along with a proper area data concept would come 
the ability of the API to return an area to the caller even if the area 
fully encompasses the queried bounding box.

All these are not big things and we have meddled our way through and 
around them, but I'm beginning to think that there are places where you 
can and should discard ancient wisdom because it only slows your 
progress - and others were, even if it is not clear to you from the 
outset, actually referring to that ancient wisdom makes things easier.

Computational geometry has worked with point, line, and polygon 
primitives for ever, and maybe computational geometry is one of the 
latter sorts of ancient wisdom.

Bye
Frederik

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] multipolygon (lake) not rendering

[Anthony]

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 10:30 AM, Frederik Ramm  wrote:
> The other is multipolygons, where we (ab)use the relation object which is
> *normally* used to model a relation between several primitives, to actually
> construct a primitive in the first place. Constructing the geo-object and
> putting it in relation to other objects should really happen on separate
> layers.

Hmm...that's interesting.  I don't like adding tables when it's not
necessary, as it tends to introduce ambiguities...  But how about an
"object" table, which would have the same fields as the relation
tables plus a field "object_type".  Ways would all be converted to
objects with nodes as members (and member_type "node").  Open ways
would become objects with type "linestring".  Closed ways could have
type "polygon" or type "area" depending whether it's supposed to be
filled or unfilled.  Relations could have type "relation".  Integrity
checking would ensure that the type matches the data (e.g.
polygons/areas must be closed).  New objects can be invented without
altering the table structure (preferably this ability would still
require administrator intervention, though - I don't like the idea of
casual editors inventing their own object_types willy nilly).

Current: way_nodes, way_tags, ways, relation_members, relation_tags, relations.
Proposed: object_members, object_tags, objects

> I would also hope that along with a proper area data concept would come the
> ability of the API to return an area to the caller even if the area fully
> encompasses the queried bounding box.

That's basically just an index issue.  Now that the database is on
Postgresql, updating it to use postgis features will probably go a
long way.  Some sort of tile-based caching would probably help too.
If it's still too much strain on the main database, a read-only cache
which potentially lags the live data could definitely do it.

As it is, the API wont even return a way which passes through a
bounding box, if none of its nodes are located within the bounding
box.  It's not a schema problem so much as a performance/indexing
problem.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] sobre las ideas de utilización de fon dos

[PB]

Queridos colisteros,
Como hemos venido hablando, desde la semana anterior, tenemos la
posibilidad de disponer de algunos fondos para hacer cositas en pos de
OpenStreetMap, nuestro proyecto común.
La cosa va quedando como sigue:

1- Esparcir la palabra = Montarnos un grupo de charlas y/o talleres
cortos que llevaríamos por otras ciudades de Cuba, pensar que sean
exportables a América Latina (que somos solidarios e
internacionalistas)
1.1- Identificar lugares
1.2- Estimar costos en equipamiento, materiales, impresos, movilidad.
(Cuidao con la guagua andando)
1.3- Hacer un cronograma estimado
1.4- ¿Voluntarios? Los que estén dispuestos que lo expresen levantando
la mano :)

2- Hablamos de imprimir un mapa de camellos. Sería el primer=único
mapa de transporte de Ciudad de La Habana desde los 80. Este mapa
tendría por una cara el mapa y por la otra proselitismo al duro.
2.1- ¿Voluntarios? Hay cosas que necesitan esfuerzo:
2.1.1- Tirarle a los datos (Levantar paradas y rutas)
2.1.2- Arreglar el mapa de OSM (Corregir lo que lo requiera y meter
lugares de interés relacionados con la rutas de ser necesario)
2.1.3- Trabajar en el discurso proselitista. Recordad que el mensaje
estará dirigido al más común de los mortales que no necesariamente es
un friki de Internet
2.1.4- Trabajar en el diseño, en falso de momento
2.1.5- COTIZAR la impresión una cantidad decente de A3 en un papel
apropiado, ambas caras a todo color. Pensar en imprimirlos en
cualquier lugar donde sea más barato y después transportarlos a Cuba

3- Una idea que hemos estado y que ha sido muy bien acogida en OSM es
usar a Cuba como "vidriera" para el resto de América Latina así que
retomamos el proyectico de servir datos de OSM según estándares OGC
para intercambiar con las IDEs locales.
3.1- Enunciarlo decentemente en Español y en Inglés
3.2- Estimar costos y esfuerzo
3.3- Gestionar autorizaciones (ya va caminando PB -> Compañeros de verde olivo)
3.4- ¿Voluntarios?
3.5- ¿Ideas?

4- ¿Alguna otra cosa?

5- Estamos buscando opciones de GPSs baratos y embarajables para
apoyar la actividad
5.1- Mikel propuso: GARMIN eTrex Legend HCx ($200.00) ¿Alguna otra idea?
5.2- Helder propuso una gama de loggers ($30-$50) pero sin display,
sólo registran datos
5.3- Alguien propuso comprar iPhones y hackearlos ($100) si hay que
pagar el hack ($25)
5.2- ¿Podríamos procurar alguna donación? Alguien que pudiera
enviarnos alguno FREE al hotel en Panamá. Tal vez contactar a GPStoGo

Bueno, ahí se los dejo.
Espero vuestros comentarios, opiniones...
bb
PB

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] sobre las ideas de utilización de fondo s

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Lunes, 26 de Octubre de 2009, PB escribió:
> [...]

This should have gone to talk-cu@ instead of t...@... right, PB?


-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega 

http://ivan.sanchezortega.es
MSN:i_eat_s_p_a_m_for_breakf...@hotmail.com
Jabber:ivansanc...@jabber.org ; ivansanc...@kdetalk.net
IRC: ivansanchez @ OFTC & freenode


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Coastline error checker shapefiles

[Martijn van Oosterhout]

Sure, on that page now is all the information used to generate the
coastline checker output.

Does this answer your question?

On Mon, Oct 26, 2009 at 10:57 AM, David Groom  wrote:
> Coastline error checker shapefiles are available at
> http://hypercube.telascience.org/~kleptog/
>
> Is there any way that these can include self-intersection  and inverted
> polygon type errors?

Have a nice day,
-- 
Martijn van Oosterhout  http://svana.org/kleptog/

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-legal-talk] Question regarding commercial use

[Sven Benhaupt]

Hello,

I'm working for a small delivery company and they're using an internal
Java-based desktop software for managing their deliveries and customers. We
have the lat/lon coordinates (from a commercial geocoding service) of our
customers and my boss asked me if it's possible to display them over an OSM
map inside our desktop software.

My approach would be to setup an own map tile server on Linux with Apache
and mod_tile. Then I would write a small map viewer in Java which downloads
the map tiles and displays them in our software. I would then write a
drawing routine which displays the coordinates of our customers (as red
dots) over the OSM tiles.

Now I have the following two legal questions:

As far as I have understood from the "Common License Interpretations" wiki
page, this is would be a "collective work" since the OSM layer is kept
separate and independent from our own data (and our own data has not beeen
created by looking on the OSM map). Is this correct? When I attribute/credit
the OSM maps correctly inside my map viewer (text & hyperlinks) would this
be a legal use of the OSM map data?

If so - would it also be legally ok if I would create a "print map"
functionality inside my map viewer (also with correct attribution)?

If not, I would of course have to use a commercial map data provider since I
absolutely want to stay legal.


Thanks in advance & big respect to all the OSM contributors,
 svn
___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-t...@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] Question regarding commercial use

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Sven Benhaupt wrote:
> My approach would be to setup an own map tile server on Linux with 
> Apache and mod_tile. Then I would write a small map viewer in Java which 
> downloads the map tiles and displays them in our software. 

There's code in JOSM that you can re-use for that (the slippy map 
chooser or the slippy map plugin).

> As far as I have understood from the "Common License Interpretations" 
> wiki page, this is would be a "collective work" since the OSM layer is 
> kept separate and independent from our own data (and our own data has 
> not beeen created by looking on the OSM map). Is this correct?

That would be my interpretation too.

> When I 
> attribute/credit the OSM maps correctly inside my map viewer (text & 
> hyperlinks) would this be a legal use of the OSM map data?

I would say so.

> If so - would it also be legally ok if I would create a "print map" 
> functionality inside my map viewer (also with correct attribution)?

Yes, but the printed map is not a collective work any more; at least 
under CC-BY-SA the printed map would have to be licensed CC-BY-SA, 
*including* the depicted vehicle routes/positions. OSM has no problem 
with that, and your delivery company probably hasn't either (remember, 
CC-BY-SA does not mean you have to put it up on a web site or something, 
just that anyone who legally gets hold of such a printout may do 
whatever he or she likes with it).

So for example if you should decide to produce and publish a yearly 
report on your business and you include a OSM map with the routes of all 
your delivery vehicles then others would be allowed to trace off and 
publish these routes.

Bye
Frederik

___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-t...@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Name, owner, and tenant of building

[Peter Körner]

> 
> Is there a convention for disentangling these things?
> 
Just tell me how you'd like the tags to be rendered. Maybe, if name 
isn't given on a building, another tag should be rendered instead.

If you
tell this we can male a patch to the rendering stylesheet and post it on 
dev and maybe it will be applied..

Peter

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] ODBL enforcement: contract law and remedies

[Frederik Ramm]

Ed,

the question "what avenues do we have open if someone breaches the 
contract" has been discussed on legal-talk, for example in this thread:

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2008-February/000637.html

I don't know if the License Working Group have pursued this further in 
the mean time; at the time, we arrived at roughly the same conclusion 
that you did (we can sue them for damages but if there are no damages 
then there's no case). Someone brought up the idea of "punitive damages" 
but I don't believe in it.

So yes, this is a weak point - the whole contractual element of the ODbL 
is a very weak point indeed as it is very conceivable that violators 
will claim they never entered into the contract in the first place.

However, you are wrong in alluding that there is a choice:

> I am concerned that the ODBL throws this away by explicitly stating
> that 'the ODbL is also an agreement in contract'.  Does that not
> weaken the ability to take out injunctions or seek other equitable
> remedies against those who violate the licence?

It is quite clear (at least to me) that our data cannot be protected by 
copyright alone; but if our data is not protected by copyright, and if 
the jurisdiction in question does not have a "sui generis" database law, 
then we do not have the option to build a "permission based" license 
because nobody needs permission to use our data!

So, and that takes us back to RichardF being quoted in the posting cited 
at the beginning, the ODbL at least *tries* to use all avenues open to us.

The Science Commons people, righly, say that it is morally doubtful to 
claim copyright where none exists, and I think in this vein the ODbL is 
morally superior to CC-BY-SA for OSM data, because the latter is based 
on copyright which in all likelihood does not exist for OSM data.

Bye
Frederik

-- 
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-t...@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

[OSM-talk] Help with osm2midi

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

Hi,

I'm trying to use osm2midi[1] on a small piece of data, but fue to my 
ifnorance of ruby, I stumble upon this:

/usr/lib/ruby/1.8/rubygems/custom_require.rb:31:in `gem_original_require': no 
such file to load -- geo_ruby (LoadError)
from /usr/lib/ruby/1.8/rubygems/custom_require.rb:31:in `require'
from osm2midi.rb:27


[1] http://github.com/tmcw/Real-Distance-Maps/blob/master/osm2midi.rb


Can anybody help me through this? Cheers,
-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega 

Aviso: Este e-mail es confidencial y no debería ser usado por nadie que no sea 
el destinatario original. No se permite la reproducción mediante fotocopia, 
walkie-talkie, emisora de radioaficionado, satélite, televisión por cable, 
proyector, señales de humo, código morse, braille, lenguaje de signos, 
taquigrafía o cualquier otro medio. Bajo ningún concepto debe traducirse al 
francés este e-mail. Este e-mail no puede ser ridiculizado, parodiado, 
juzgado en una competición, o leído en voz alta con un acento gracioso 
llevando un bigote falso y/o cualquier tipo de sombrero, incluyendo pero no 
limitándose a pañuelos. No inciten ni provoquen a este e-mail. Si está 
medicándose, puede experimentar nauseas, desorientación, histeria, vómitos, 
pérdida temporal de la memoria a corto plazo y malestar general al leer este 
e-mail. Consulte a su médico o farmacéutico antes de leer este e-mail. Todas 
las modelos descritas en este e-mail son mayores de 18 años. Si ha recibido 
este e-mail por error es probablemente porque estaba borracho cuando escribí 
la dirección del destinatario.


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-legal-talk] ODBL enforcement: contract law and remedies

[Ed Avis]

Frederik Ramm  writes:

>http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/legal-talk/2008-February/000637.html
> 
>I don't know if the License Working Group have pursued this further in 
>the mean time; at the time, we arrived at roughly the same conclusion 
>that you did (we can sue them for damages but if there are no damages 
>then there's no case).

> However, you are wrong in alluding that there is a choice:

>It is quite clear (at least to me) that our data cannot be protected by 
>copyright alone;

This is where I disagree (or at least, am unpersuaded so far) since I
haven't seen any hard evidence that copyright is inadequate.  If this were
the case, then there would be no need for anybody to give permission for
relicensing, since under the current copyright-only setup anybody (including
the OSMF) could just take the data and relicense it under the terms they want.

>but if our data is not protected by copyright, and if 
>the jurisdiction in question does not have a "sui generis" database law,

I would say that in this case, the wise citizens and parliament of that
jurisdiction have decided that map data should be free, and good luck to them.
After all the purpose of the OSM project is to have freely-available map data;
if a law were passed tomorrow putting all maps into the public domain it would
be most odd for OSM to start fighting against it.

However, I recognize that this is a matter of opinion, not fact, and there
must be those within the project who think that we should try to override
national law in favour of stronger protections, just as EULAs for computer
software attempt to override legal rights to reverse engineering.

There is still the small question of whether any such place exists.  Again,
is there any evidence (rather than just repetition of the same opinions)
that in some country, OSM data is effectively in the public domain?  And is
that country significant enough to make it worth imposing a new, contract-
based licence on the rest of the world just to address this 'problem'?
What harm would it cause in practice if Elbonia did not recognize copyright
in maps?

>The Science Commons people, righly, say that it is morally doubtful to 
>claim copyright where none exists, and I think in this vein the ODbL is 
>morally superior to CC-BY-SA for OSM data, because the latter is based 
>on copyright which in all likelihood does not exist for OSM data.

That's interesting.  However the ODBL also claims to be a copyright licence,
while acknowledging that what is copyrightable varies between jurisdictions.

-- 
Ed Avis 


___
legal-talk mailing list
legal-t...@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/legal-talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Help with osm2midi

[Shaun McDonald]

sudo gem install geo
or some other similar gem.

Shaun

On 26 Oct 2009, at 18:24, Iván Sánchez Ortega wrote:

> Hi,
>
> I'm trying to use osm2midi[1] on a small piece of data, but fue to my
> ifnorance of ruby, I stumble upon this:
>
> /usr/lib/ruby/1.8/rubygems/custom_require.rb:31:in  
> `gem_original_require': no
> such file to load -- geo_ruby (LoadError)
>from /usr/lib/ruby/1.8/rubygems/custom_require.rb:31:in  
> `require'
>from osm2midi.rb:27
>
>
> [1] http://github.com/tmcw/Real-Distance-Maps/blob/master/osm2midi.rb
>
>
> Can anybody help me through this? Cheers,
> -- 
> --
> Iván Sánchez Ortega 
>
> Aviso: Este e-mail es confidencial y no debería ser usado por nadie  
> que no sea
> el destinatario original. No se permite la reproducción mediante  
> fotocopia,
> walkie-talkie, emisora de radioaficionado, satélite, televisión por  
> cable,
> proyector, señales de humo, código morse, braille, lenguaje de signos,
> taquigrafía o cualquier otro medio. Bajo ningún concepto debe  
> traducirse al
> francés este e-mail. Este e-mail no puede ser ridiculizado, parodiado,
> juzgado en una competición, o leído en voz alta con un acento gracioso
> llevando un bigote falso y/o cualquier tipo de sombrero, incluyendo  
> pero no
> limitándose a pañuelos. No inciten ni provoquen a este e-mail. Si está
> medicándose, puede experimentar nauseas, desorientación, histeria,  
> vómitos,
> pérdida temporal de la memoria a corto plazo y malestar general al  
> leer este
> e-mail. Consulte a su médico o farmacéutico antes de leer este e- 
> mail. Todas
> las modelos descritas en este e-mail son mayores de 18 años. Si ha  
> recibido
> este e-mail por error es probablemente porque estaba borracho cuando  
> escribí
> la dirección del destinatario.
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Help with osm2midi

[Iván Sánchez Ortega]

El Lunes, 26 de Octubre de 2009, Shaun McDonald escribió:
> sudo gem install geo
> or some other similar gem.

It still fails after doing so. I'll have to look into the classic "ruby 1.8 vs 
ruby 1.9 gems" issue.

-- 
--
Iván Sánchez Ortega 

The ultimate security is your understanding of reality.
--H. Stanley Judd


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Name, owner, and tenant of building

[Ed Avis]

Peter Körner  mazdermind.de> writes:

>Just tell me how you'd like the tags to be rendered. Maybe, if name 
>isn't given on a building, another tag should be rendered instead.

Perhaps 'name', 'user' and 'owner' in that order?

-- 
Ed Avis 


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Mountain Passes - Display Issue

[Shalabh]

Hi,

Just to bring to the group's notice. I added a few mountain passes a couple
of days ago along with the hiking trails and waypoints

Indrahar Pass at N32 17.852 E76 22.872, elevation 4342 metres
Jalsu Pass at N32 10.929 E76 41.018, elevation 3425 metres
Bhubhu Pass at N31 57.557 E76 59.684, elevation 2791 metres
Himri Pass at N32 02.299 E77 02.958, elevation 3261 metres

When I now check on OSM, while the trails are there along with the
waypoints, the passes are missing. However, when I download data from OSM
using JOSM, I can see the passes along with the elevations.

Any clue whats the reason for not displaying on the renderer?

Regards,
Shalabh
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Mountain Passes - Display Issue

[Ulf Lamping]

Shalabh schrieb:
> Hi,
> 
> Just to bring to the group's notice. I added a few mountain passes a 
> couple of days ago along with the hiking trails and waypoints
> 
> Indrahar Pass at N32 17.852 E76 22.872, elevation 4342 metres
> Jalsu Pass at N32 10.929 E76 41.018, elevation 3425 metres
> Bhubhu Pass at N31 57.557 E76 59.684, elevation 2791 metres
> Himri Pass at N32 02.299 E77 02.958, elevation 3261 metres
> 
> When I now check on OSM, while the trails are there along with the 
> waypoints, the passes are missing. However, when I download data from 
> OSM using JOSM, I can see the passes along with the elevations.
> 
> Any clue whats the reason for not displaying on the renderer?

Except for JOSM, I currently don't know any renderer that displays 
mountain_pass=yes at all (if there's any, please let us know :-)

Problem here: JOSM simply displays a bridge like icon, but doesn't care 
about the direction (north, south, ...).

A "correct renderer" should display a mountain pass somehow like a 
bridge usually is displayed, following the direction of the way.

As the mountain_pass is tagged as a node, it's unfortunately not that 
easy to get that direction, so renderers simply tend to ignore this tag 
completely :-(

Regards, ULFL

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Name, owner, and tenant of building

[MP]

>  >Just tell me how you'd like the tags to be rendered. Maybe, if name
>  >isn't given on a building, another tag should be rendered instead.
>
>
> Perhaps 'name', 'user' and 'owner' in that order?

Tag 'user' was misused few times by some editors in the past to
contain name of user who made the edit, so I think we should use some
another name of tag to avoid confusion.

Martin

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Mountain Passes - Display Issue

[Dodi]

Ulf wrote: 
> 
> Shalabh schrieb:
> > Hi,
> >
> > Just to bring to the group's notice. I added a few mountain passes a
> > couple of days ago along with the hiking trails and waypoints
> >
> > When I now check on OSM, while the trails are there along with the
> > waypoints, the passes are missing. However, when I download data from
> > OSM using JOSM, I can see the passes along with the elevations.
> >
> > Any clue whats the reason for not displaying on the renderer?
...
> 
> A "correct renderer" should display a mountain pass somehow like a
> bridge usually is displayed, following the direction of the way.
> 
> As the mountain_pass is tagged as a node, it's unfortunately not that
> easy to get that direction, so renderers simply tend to ignore this tag
> completely :-(
> 

In osmarender there is a solution for this from version 4 (but not sure
about or/p)

it should be done like gates using wayMarker-s





Just svg symbol is nedded
Dodi


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Name, owner, and tenant of building

[Joseph Reeves]

Tenant? As per the message title?


2009/10/26 MP :
>>  >Just tell me how you'd like the tags to be rendered. Maybe, if name
>>  >isn't given on a building, another tag should be rendered instead.
>>
>>
>> Perhaps 'name', 'user' and 'owner' in that order?
>
> Tag 'user' was misused few times by some editors in the past to
> contain name of user who made the edit, so I think we should use some
> another name of tag to avoid confusion.
>
> Martin
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Mountain Passes - Display Issue

[Ulf Lamping]

Dodi schrieb:
> Ulf wrote: 
>> Shalabh schrieb:
>>> Hi,
>>>
>>> Just to bring to the group's notice. I added a few mountain passes a
>>> couple of days ago along with the hiking trails and waypoints
>>>
>>> When I now check on OSM, while the trails are there along with the
>>> waypoints, the passes are missing. However, when I download data from
>>> OSM using JOSM, I can see the passes along with the elevations.
>>>
>>> Any clue whats the reason for not displaying on the renderer?
> ...
>> A "correct renderer" should display a mountain pass somehow like a
>> bridge usually is displayed, following the direction of the way.
>>
>> As the mountain_pass is tagged as a node, it's unfortunately not that
>> easy to get that direction, so renderers simply tend to ignore this tag
>> completely :-(
>>
> 
> In osmarender there is a solution for this from version 4 (but not sure
> about or/p)
> 
> it should be done like gates using wayMarker-s
> 
> 
>   
> 
> 
> Just svg symbol is nedded

You mean something like this?

http://svn.openstreetmap.org/applications/share/map-icons/svg/misc/landmark/mountain_pass.svg

Regards, ULFL

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Mountain Passes - Display Issue

[Dave G]

I have had the same problem so I have just been tagging them as place=

but of course no pass symbol is rendered

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Mountain Passes - Display Issue

[Dave G]

sorry that should read:

ele=1234m
mountain_pass=yes
name=Harman Pass
place=locality

as in:


http://www.openstreetmap.org/export/embed.html?bbox=171.3785,-42.9774,171.4798,-42.9266&layer=mapnik";
style="border: 1px solid black">http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-42.952&lon=171.42915&zoom=14&layers=B000FTFT";>View
Larger Map

not ideal I admit

dave

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Mountain Passes - Display Issue

[Ulf Lamping]

Dave G schrieb:
> sorry that should read:
> 
> ele=1234m
> mountain_pass=yes
> name=Harman Pass
> place=locality
> 
> as in:
> 
> 
>  marginheight="0" marginwidth="0"
> src="http://www.openstreetmap.org/export/embed.html?bbox=171.3785,-42.9774,171.4798,-42.9266&layer=mapnik";
> style="border: 1px solid black"> href="http://www.openstreetmap.org/?lat=-42.952&lon=171.42915&zoom=14&layers=B000FTFT";>View
> Larger Map
> 
> not ideal I admit

Hmmm:

ele=1234 (unless you life in feet related countries :-)

... and please promise to remove place=locality once renderes gets an 
understanding of mountain_passes ;-)

Regards, ULFL

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk