Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] emergency=*

[John Smith]

On 3 August 2010 05:51, SomeoneElse  wrote:
> We've seen recently how people responding to disasters have used OSM data on
> handheld devices - someone right now could quite possibly be using such a
> map to try and deal with, say, the floods in Pakistan.  If that map is
> suddenly missing hospitals what are they to do?

Similar hacks to what they did in Haiti I suspect, use what ever tags
render, like camping sites, which are really refugee camps...

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Re: [OSM-talk] Project of the Week

[Shoaib Burq]

You are right Toby, we are definitely lacking what to do in new areas.
Esp. with places like the Pakistani NW.
And you are right a lot of great stuff was put together for Haiti but
it seems it needs to be generalized a bit.
If people know of links to tutorials please post them here and the
wiki as Toby suggested.

I'll do some searching too

On Tue, Aug 3, 2010 at 9:18 AM, Toby Murray  wrote:
> I'm kind of new here so I wasn't around for Haiti. Is there a general
> "here is how to help map disaster areas" page on the wiki? I would be
> willing to help out but the mapping I have done so far here in the US
> is a little different thanks to TIGER data that at least gives you a
> point to start from. It would be helpful to give some guidance on how
> to go about mapping a blank area that you have no personal knowledge
> of. And of course a link to that from the project-of-the-week page
> wouldn't hurt either.
>
> This is a good start although some of it is Haiti specific:
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/HOT_Package
>
> Seems like something HOT would want to put together. Or have they
> already and my searches just aren't finding it?
>
>
> Toby
>
>
>
> On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Shoaib Burq  wrote:
>> Hi all,
>>
>> Kashif just added Pakistan's Flood affected areas to the project of
>> the week. If you are in the mood for tracing Yahoo Imagery it would be
>> great to get some of these towns listed in the wiki page for the
>> Pakistan floods traced
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Project_of_the_week/2010/Aug_08
>>
>> Hope we can help out - this part of the word has seen enough heart-ache 
>> already
>>
>> Cheers
>> Shoaib
>> --
>> sho...@nomad-labs.com
>> Canberra, Australia
>> http://twitter.com/sabman
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Project of the Week

[Toby Murray]

I'm kind of new here so I wasn't around for Haiti. Is there a general
"here is how to help map disaster areas" page on the wiki? I would be
willing to help out but the mapping I have done so far here in the US
is a little different thanks to TIGER data that at least gives you a
point to start from. It would be helpful to give some guidance on how
to go about mapping a blank area that you have no personal knowledge
of. And of course a link to that from the project-of-the-week page
wouldn't hurt either.

This is a good start although some of it is Haiti specific:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Humanitarian_OSM_Team/HOT_Package

Seems like something HOT would want to put together. Or have they
already and my searches just aren't finding it?


Toby



On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 5:16 PM, Shoaib Burq  wrote:
> Hi all,
>
> Kashif just added Pakistan's Flood affected areas to the project of
> the week. If you are in the mood for tracing Yahoo Imagery it would be
> great to get some of these towns listed in the wiki page for the
> Pakistan floods traced
> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Project_of_the_week/2010/Aug_08
>
> Hope we can help out - this part of the word has seen enough heart-ache 
> already
>
> Cheers
> Shoaib
> --
> sho...@nomad-labs.com
> Canberra, Australia
> http://twitter.com/sabman
>
> ___
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[OSM-talk] Project of the Week

[Shoaib Burq]

Hi all,

Kashif just added Pakistan's Flood affected areas to the project of
the week. If you are in the mood for tracing Yahoo Imagery it would be
great to get some of these towns listed in the wiki page for the
Pakistan floods traced
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Project_of_the_week/2010/Aug_08

Hope we can help out - this part of the word has seen enough heart-ache already

Cheers
Shoaib
--
sho...@nomad-labs.com
Canberra, Australia
http://twitter.com/sabman

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Re: [OSM-talk] How do I turn JOSM's tiger:reviewed=no highlight off?

[Alan Mintz]

At 2010-08-02 09:17, Apollinaris Schoell wrote:

...
shouldn't custom or country specific style be maintained in an external 
style anyway? there is no good reason to have tiger, opengeodb, …  in the 
default elemstyle. ...


+1. I have my own style file that I copied and then modified over a year 
ago, and it's a pain to have to compare it against the current version and 
merge changes. Similar to presets, I think you should be able to specify a 
list of style files that are simply combined in the order listed (and be 
able to move the order around easily), so local changes can be easily kept 
while allowing new base changes to come through. This would also allow 
better organization of various types of things into separate files, letting 
you choose someone's cycle rendering and someone else's maxspeeds.


--
Alan Mintz 


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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] emergency=*

[SomeoneElse]

Ross Scanlon wrote:

Total time 6 minutes

Hundreds of hours, yeah right.


  
So you've also updated every user of mkgmap who uses a customised style 
file too?  That should add a few to the "20 or so" (or whatever number 
were mentioned before).  Each change is of the same order as the one 
that you've described above, but when multiplied by the number of users 
affected it's much, much greater.


The worst of it is there was no warning - none of the stuff here seems 
to have been followed:

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Automated_Edits/Code_of_Conduct

We've seen recently how people responding to disasters have used OSM 
data on handheld devices - someone right now could quite possibly be 
using such a map to try and deal with, say, the floods in Pakistan.  If 
that map is suddenly missing hospitals what are they to do?


Cheers,
Andy


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Re: [OSM-talk] How do I turn JOSM's tiger:reviewed=no highlight off?

[Apollinaris Schoell]

On 2 Aug 2010, at 1:50 , Sebastian Klein wrote:

> Nathan Edgars II wrote:
>> If a way is tagged tiger:reviewed=no, JOSM puts a highlight behind it,
>> and when you select it the red is a lot fatter. How do I disable this?
> 
> You can put
> 
> color.mappaint.standard.tiger_data=#80808000
> 
> in your advanced preferences. This makes the highlight 100% transparent, 
> however the selection is still fat.
> 
> Another option is to modify the default style and simply remove the tiger 
> style rules. For this you copy 
> 
> to some folder, fix it in a text editor and then simply load the style from 
> the preferences. (Make sure to untick "enable build-in defaults".)
> 

shouldn't custom or country specific style be maintained in an external style 
anyway? there is no good reason to have tiger, opengeodb, …  in the default 
elemstyle. 
I had a trac ticket for tiger but has never been committed. If there is 
interest I can provide a patch. But I don't know where the custom style should 
be placed to make it accessible to anyone. As far as I understand JOSM this 
would be hosted on an external site and not built in to the program.

> 
> Sebastian
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] How do I turn JOSM's tiger:reviewed=no highlight off?

[Apollinaris Schoell]

you can compile JOSM yourself and edit the default style at 
./styles/standard/elemstyles.xml
If this is too complicated I can send you a Josm binary with these changes. 




On 2 Aug 2010, at 1:19 , Nathan Edgars II wrote:

> If a way is tagged tiger:reviewed=no, JOSM puts a highlight behind it,
> and when you select it the red is a lot fatter. How do I disable this?
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] emergency=*

[Eugene Alvin Villar]

No one seems to have mentioned that any OSM API update could potentially
break "thousands" of applications yet we still update it if needed. For
example, the change to API 0.5 broke every tool, renderer or app that still
assumed segments exist. (Then again, for this example, it was easier to
change stuff then because the ecosystem was still small leaving a smaller
collateral damage.)

So, while I agree that unilateral changing of keys/tags is not the way to
go, I don't agree with the idea that we don't change key/tag definitions
simply because it could break stuff. I guess the right way to do things is
to discuss key/tag changes where the discussion is roughly proportional to
the "maturity" of the key/tag.

For example, I wish that we had started with road=* instead of highway=*.
But since highway is such a basic and established key that is probably is as
old as OSM itself, it will take almost universal agreement to effect a
change to the highway key name.


On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 4:32 AM, Peteris Krisjanis  wrote:

> 2010/8/1 Ulf Lamping :
> > Am 01.08.2010 16:40, schrieb Ross Scanlon:
> >>
> >> On Sun, 01 Aug 2010 16:08:10 +0200
> >> Ulf Lamping  wrote:
> >>
> >>> Am 31.07.2010 14:00, schrieb Peteris Krisjanis:
> 
>  2010/7/31 Ulf Lamping:
> >>>
> >>> Please remember, that it's not done to change only the software (e.g.
> >>> mkgmap), but each rule file or alike in use.
> >>>
>  I know all costs,
> >>>
> >>> I have doubts about that.
> >>
> >> And most of them use mapnik and/or osm2pgslso there's no change for them
> >> but to load a newer version of mapnik and
> >
> > osm2pgsql.
> >
> > That's only true for map developers that keep the default rendering rules
> of
> > the software in use. Once a developer starts to tweak the rendering to
> his
> > liking, he usually has to copy the rules file(s) and therefore won't
> > directly benefit from upstream changes of the software.
> >
> > BTW: Most mobile device software (Garmin, mobile phone, ...) don't use
> > mapnik/osm2pgsql.
>
> But they have have to sync with base sooner or later to follow
> changes, or no? I think you overplay individuality of developers. It
> would be quite stupid not to follow changes in upstream.
>
> Anyway, I understand your point, but I think there is some middle
> ground where tags can be changed and it can be done reasonably.
>
> Have a nice working week,
> Cheers,
> Peter.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] scuba dive sites

[Rob]

2010/5/22 Nic Roets :
>> So, you have noticed there are people tagging something as something else to
>> get it rendered (commonly known as "tagging for the renderer"). That doesn't
>> make it right or turn it into it's opposite meaning.
>
> I'm just afraid that a year from now, someone will come along and
> invent 6 new tags (head, bay, peak, gulf etc) and immediately retag
> those as he sees fit. Because that is exactly what happened to
> sport=diving.


I would prefer using them, if the tagging is better (just imported 130
dive spots in the netherlands with tag sport=scuba_diving :)
Does someone know how often openseamap updates ?

Best regards
Rob

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Re: [OSM-talk] How do I turn JOSM's tiger:reviewed=no highlight off?

[Nathan Edgars II]

Sebastian Klein wrote:
> 
> There seems to be a general user interface problem here, as you are not 
> the first having trouble with loading custom styles.
> 
> To avoid noise on this list, we can try to resolve it on josm trac.
> Please add Help->"status report" to the ticket.
> 

I created a ticket - https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ticket/5292 - but I'm not
sure where you want 'Help->"status report"' added.
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Re: [OSM-talk] How do I turn JOSM's tiger:reviewed=no highlight off?

[Sebastian Klein]

Nathan Edgars II wrote:

Sebastian Klein wrote:
Another option is to modify the default style and simply remove the 
tiger style rules. For this you copy 

to some folder, fix it in a text editor and then simply load the style 
from the preferences. (Make sure to untick "enable build-in defaults".)



I'm having a bit of trouble with this - I loaded this xml in 'map paint
styles' but now all ways show up as gray lines.


There seems to be a general user interface problem here, as you are not 
the first having trouble with loading custom styles.


To avoid noise on this list, we can try to resolve it on josm trac.
Please add Help->"status report" to the ticket.


Sebastian

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Re: [OSM-talk] How do I turn JOSM's tiger:reviewed=no highlight off?

[Nathan Edgars II]

Sebastian Klein wrote:
> 
> Nathan Edgars II wrote:
>> If a way is tagged tiger:reviewed=no, JOSM puts a highlight behind it,
>> and when you select it the red is a lot fatter. How do I disable this?
> 
> You can put
> 
> color.mappaint.standard.tiger_data=#80808000
> 
> in your advanced preferences. This makes the highlight 100% transparent, 
> however the selection is still fat.
> 
Yeah, it's the selection fatness that I want to get rid of (it hides the
direction arrows).


Sebastian Klein wrote:
> 
> Another option is to modify the default style and simply remove the 
> tiger style rules. For this you copy 
> 
> to some folder, fix it in a text editor and then simply load the style 
> from the preferences. (Make sure to untick "enable build-in defaults".)
> 
I'm having a bit of trouble with this - I loaded this xml in 'map paint
styles' but now all ways show up as gray lines.
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Re: [OSM-talk] How do I turn JOSM's tiger:reviewed=no highlight off?

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 4:49 AM, Peteris Krisjanis  wrote:
> 2010/8/2 Nathan Edgars II :
>> If a way is tagged tiger:reviewed=no, JOSM puts a highlight behind it,
>> and when you select it the red is a lot fatter. How do I disable this?
>>
>
> Use new JOSM filter feature?

How? I can hide ways with tiger:reviewed=no, but I don't think I can
only hide the highlight...

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Re: [OSM-talk] ssl for wiki.openstreetmap.org

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

Steve Bennett wrote:

What's the need, if I may ask? What's the worst that could happen if
some freak stole your password somehow?


He uses the same password for his online banking account ;)

Bye
Frederik

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Re: [OSM-talk] How do I turn JOSM's tiger:reviewed=no highlight off?

[Sebastian Klein]

Nathan Edgars II wrote:

If a way is tagged tiger:reviewed=no, JOSM puts a highlight behind it,
and when you select it the red is a lot fatter. How do I disable this?


You can put

color.mappaint.standard.tiger_data=#80808000

in your advanced preferences. This makes the highlight 100% transparent, 
however the selection is still fat.


Another option is to modify the default style and simply remove the 
tiger style rules. For this you copy 

to some folder, fix it in a text editor and then simply load the style 
from the preferences. (Make sure to untick "enable build-in defaults".)



Sebastian

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Re: [OSM-talk] How do I turn JOSM's tiger:reviewed=no highlight off?

[Peteris Krisjanis]

2010/8/2 Nathan Edgars II :
> If a way is tagged tiger:reviewed=no, JOSM puts a highlight behind it,
> and when you select it the red is a lot fatter. How do I disable this?
>

Use new JOSM filter feature?

Cheers,
Peter.

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Re: [OSM-talk] How do I turn JOSM's tiger:reviewed=no highlight off?

[Nathan Edgars II]

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 4:37 AM, maning sambale
 wrote:
> Use the wireframe mode
> Ctrl-R

That's ctrl-W, and I don't want all that, just disabling the highlight.

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Re: [OSM-talk] How do I turn JOSM's tiger:reviewed=no highlight off?

[maning sambale]

Use the wireframe mode
Ctrl-R

On Mon, Aug 2, 2010 at 4:19 PM, Nathan Edgars II  wrote:
> If a way is tagged tiger:reviewed=no, JOSM puts a highlight behind it,
> and when you select it the red is a lot fatter. How do I disable this?
>
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-- 
cheers,
maning
--
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wiki: http://esambale.wikispaces.com/
blog: http://epsg4253.wordpress.com/
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[OSM-talk] How do I turn JOSM's tiger:reviewed=no highlight off?

[Nathan Edgars II]

If a way is tagged tiger:reviewed=no, JOSM puts a highlight behind it,
and when you select it the red is a lot fatter. How do I disable this?

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Re: [OSM-talk] A plea for meaning ful changeset comments

[Ulf Lamping]

Am 31.07.2010 14:05, schrieb Frederik Ramm:

I, too, find your attitude funny. You spend an hour doing edits, then
cannot be bothered to spend a minute to think of a good changeset
comment.


That's one thing I want to do and the other I often find a burden to 
enter. What's so funny about that?



Instead, you say, it is the job of all the others who want to
make sense of your edit to investigate, and spend certianly more than
that one minute.


Is this the same Frederik that preached all the time: Its the consumers 
job to make sense out of the data, not the mappers job?



That is indeed selfish, because you're saying that your time is more
valuable than theirs.


If someone doesn't tag all possible data of a place, is he also selfish? 
By your definition: yes. Because someone else then needs to revisit that 
place to add more details and spend probably a lot more time than necessary.


OSM has a long tradition to *not* force people to enter all possible 
data, but only the things that someone *wants* to add. This principle 
worked pretty well in the past.


You failed to explain why a different principle should be applied to 
changeset comments now. "It helps some people" is certainly *not* enough 
to force how others have to spend their time.



I'd appreciate very much if, in the future, you would contribute 1% less
data and use the saved time to double the value of your contribution by
telling your fellow mappers what you did in a changeset comment.


"double the value of your contribution" - really? When I add the address 
to an existing hotel node, it won't be a lot more valueable if I add a 
comment "address of hotel added". But it almost doubles the time I need.


You failed to explain why adding changeset comments all the time is 
so valueable that it's necessary to force people to spend their time 
as you want to see it.


BTW: A map will have *no* additional value wether I add that comment or not.


And as I said to John, blaming insufficient tools is a cheap excuse.


I'm not blaming insufficient tools. However, if we would have sufficient 
tools, a lot of your reasons to force people to add comments would 
simply vanish away.



This is about paying respect to your fellow mappers, about being part of
a community rather than just someone who dumps data onto a heap ("let
the others make sense of this").


Would be nice if you would pay respect how others want to spend their 
time and not telling them what they have to do.


On our last local NFE OSM meeting, we had a short talk if anyone uses 
changeset comments. Turned out that anyone attending found it to be a 
burden. So "my" fellow mappers seem to look at it quite differently than 
you.



That is most certainly a selfish
attitude. Just because you upload a change to OSM doesn't mean you're
automatically not selfish. There are indeed people who spend their spare
time mapping stuff and add it to OSM and half the community goes "oh my
god, can't that guy contribute to another project, he's stubborn,
doesn't communicate about his edits, and does things all of us think
wrong". You know we have several such cases in Germany on the regional
and national level.


That's a pitty. But if someone is entering bullshit, does it help us to 
force him to also enter a valueable comment about his bullshit? ;-)



You don't want to put yourself on a level with them,
do you?


So we're already at the moral level of: "if you don't add a valueable 
comment, you're a potential spammer/vandal" :-(



I'm not arguing that a good comment is valuable. But it is my belief 
that forcing people (by software or by "social norms") to do things they 
don't really want to do will reduce the fun to work with OSM and 
therefore do more harm than good to the project in the long run.


Regards, ULFL

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