Re: [OSM-talk] Place of worship
2010/8/21 John F. Eldredge : > The landuse=religious seems like a good compromise. Landuse=institutional > seems a bit too generic, as there are so many different types of > institutions... ...for which we actually don't have landuses either (government, ngos, international institutions like the UNESCO, FAO, NATO, etc.) cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Potlatch for Newbies
Hi! I am currently writing a How-To for people who have heard about OSM five minutes ago and whish to contribute some specific POI information. Getting to the point where they open Potlatch and need to click the Save or Live mode buttons, I have become painfully aware on how this is inviting desaster to happen. I am trying to interest new people. But that means sending absolutely clueless folks here and one wrong click at that point and they can mess up the area for good without even knowing it. So my questions are: - Why don't we disable that Live edit feature for good? I vaguely remember the question has been raised before, but I just can't think of any use case where I' need to mess up the data directly with no undo. - If it is holy for some historic reason, why can't we put it away into a power user menu that is well hidden from the newcomer that definitely always wants and requires a way out if things go awry? - Is there a way to call Potlatch with a parameter or different URL that directly goes into save mode and does not show the save-or-sorry selection? - is there any alternative if you need an editor that works online without the need to install anything locally? Pleas help me put my consience at rest :-) bye Nop -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Potlatch-for-Newbies-tp5447342p5447342.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] iPad app
I concur. A huge opportunity for attracting casual mappers if done right. KISS my OSM or something. Simplicity is the key. Integrated account creation, oauth, abstraction from the map features complexity. No mobile JOSM (in spite of its infinite awesomeness - but think fitness for purpose). I think a chunk of that fresh round of Cloudmade / Mapquest $$$ would be well spent on a well thought out app. I mean, testing usability with focus groups and all that, that just takes some concentrated effort. Martijn Sent from my iPad On Aug 20, 2010, at 8:30 PM, SteveC wrote: > I keep thinking an editing app for the 3G / wifi iPad would be awesome. It's > always on the network, GPS and compass are built in. > > It would be a sweet surveying device, but would have to be super fault > tolerant in doing things like waiting for the network. > > Steve > > stevecoast.com > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch for Newbies
Hi, I think improving the documentation for new users (and experienced ones too!) is a really good idea - I think we lack information for the casual new user. The disadvantage of directing this group to Potlatch is that they need to understand quite a few concepts before they can really do anything (nodes, ways, tags, the fact that there is no definitive list of approved tags etc. etc.). Michael Daines has made really good progress in his Google Summer of Code project to develop a 'Simple Map Editor', which is a simple web based editor with (intentionally!) very limited functionality - it only deals with a defined list of node and way properties. This means that people can "add a pub here" rather than 'add a node tagged amenity=pub' or 'correct that street name'. He has a wiki page at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Simple_Map_Editor. There is a demo (using the development server) at http://simple-map-editor.heroku.com/. I wonder if pushing the development of this along and advertising it to new users with a "if you want to do more, you need a more advanced editor like Potlatch, with a link to a Potlatch howto might be a good way to go? I do not think it is very far away from being in a state it could be made live (a few Quality Assurance checks required). An other alternative that I like is to use the Simple Map Editor concept (in fact the same code!), but make it very specialised - you could have a map targeted at specific features, such as pubs, supermarkets [e.g http://maps.webhop.net/supermarkets], toilets etc, and invite people to review it and add ones that are missing - that way the editor would just present a very limited subset of pre-defined tags (name, operator, website etc.) - there would just be an 'add' button on the map which would bring up the editor dialog box. Again you would include a 'if you want to do more...' link. What do you think? Graham. On 21 August 2010 11:55, NopMap wrote: > > > Hi! > > I am currently writing a How-To for people who have heard about OSM five > minutes ago and whish to contribute some specific POI information. Getting > to the point where they open Potlatch and need to click the Save or Live > mode buttons, I have become painfully aware on how this is inviting > desaster > to happen. > > I am trying to interest new people. But that means sending absolutely > clueless folks here and one wrong click at that point and they can mess up > the area for good without even knowing it. > > So my questions are: > - Why don't we disable that Live edit feature for good? I vaguely remember > the question has been raised before, but I just can't think of any use case > where I' need to mess up the data directly with no undo. > - If it is holy for some historic reason, why can't we put it away into a > power user menu that is well hidden from the newcomer that definitely > always > wants and requires a way out if things go awry? > - Is there a way to call Potlatch with a parameter or different URL that > directly goes into save mode and does not show the save-or-sorry selection? > - is there any alternative if you need an editor that works online without > the need to install anything locally? > > Pleas help me put my consience at rest :-) > > bye > Nop > > -- > View this message in context: > http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Potlatch-for-Newbies-tp5447342p5447342.html > Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > -- Dr. Graham Jones Hartlepool, UK email: grahamjones...@gmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch for Newbies
2010/8/21 NopMap : > Hi! > I am trying to interest new people. But that means sending absolutely > clueless folks here and one wrong click at that point and they can mess up > the area for good without even knowing it. > - Why don't we disable that Live edit feature for good? I vaguely remember > the question has been raised before, but I just can't think of any use case > where I' need to mess up the data directly with no undo. +1. Due to changeset comments some way of submit is nowadays required in any case. > - If it is holy for some historic reason, why can't we put it away into a > power user menu that is well hidden from the newcomer that definitely always > wants and requires a way out if things go awry? +1, it could be a different link not on the frontpage but in the wiki (that power users could bookmark), or a setting in PL (could also be with a button "remember setting", so that it is not annoying to the power users). cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] iPad app
On 21/08/2010 12:51, Martijn van Exel wrote: I concur. A huge opportunity for attracting casual mappers if done right. KISS my OSM or something. Simplicity is the key. Integrated account creation, oauth, abstraction from the map features complexity. No mobile JOSM (in spite of its infinite awesomeness - but think fitness for purpose). I think a chunk of that fresh round of Cloudmade / Mapquest $$$ would be well spent on a well thought out app. I mean, testing usability with focus groups and all that, that just takes some concentrated effort. Martijn Sent from my iPad Aren't Android devices out selling iThingys? Wouldn't it be better investing into a growing market rather than a stagnant one? Dave F. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] iPad app
I would love to have an iPad app to map with. I've actually just come back from a Mapzen POI Collector mapping trip around a town that could have really used an iPad to add some roads and other features. But from CloudMade (or Mapquest's) perspective its tough to justify the cost of developing an iPad app. Mapzen POI Collector only has 7k downloads and a few hundred users each month - so the market size for iPhone apps like this is limited. Sure, make the UX 10x better and there could be thousands of users a month, but its still a limited number of contributos for the effort put in. Compare that to the 2.5M Foursquare users or the 60M Farmville (10% of the total number of Facebook users) users and the number is tiny. Then consider that there are something like 11M iPhones and only 3M iPads in the US with even lower iPad penetration in other places, and the market is even more limited. A possible answer is HTML5 apps - that's what we're looking into at CloudMade at the moment. An HTML5 POI collector, for example would let users on iPhone, Android and iPad and other tablets join in the party. (There are now 8M android phones in the US) It could even be packaged into an app on app stores to make it discoverable. The apps should be focused on doing one or two things well. Does the world need another fully featured editor? IMO, no. It needs a suite of tools that each make it deadly simple to do a couple of things. So the feature set is going to get even more limited ;-) The next problem though is the terrible conversion rates that we see from download to active mapper (see http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2010-August/052476.html). This is caused partially by some poor design decision on our part at CloudMade, but primarily by the constraints of the current OAuth system as discussed in the thread I referenced. Unless we fix the problems with the OAuth sign-in / sign-up process the number of new mappers and tools like this could attract will be severely limited. Like I said last time - I'm keen to find a solution to this problem :-) -- Nick n...@cloudmade.com On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 2:13 PM, Dave F. wrote: > On 21/08/2010 12:51, Martijn van Exel wrote: > > I concur. A huge opportunity for attracting casual mappers if done right. > KISS my OSM or something. Simplicity is the key. Integrated account > creation, oauth, abstraction from the map features complexity. No mobile > JOSM (in spite of its infinite awesomeness - but think fitness for purpose). > I think a chunk of that fresh round of Cloudmade / Mapquest $$$ would be > well spent on a well thought out app. I mean, testing usability with focus > groups and all that, that just takes some concentrated effort. > > Martijn > > Sent from my iPad > > Aren't Android devices out selling iThingys? > > Wouldn't it be better investing into a growing market rather than a stagnant > one? > > Dave F. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > -- -- Nick Black twitter.com/nick_b ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] iPad app
Dave F. wrote: Aren't Android devices out selling iThingys? Currently there are more iThings in the market compared to android devices. But the growth of Android is much (!) stronger than the increase of iThings => it's just a matter of (few) time until there are more Android devices in the market than iThings! Other platforms e.g. WinMobile are loosing very strong currently... Wouldn't it be better investing into a growing market rather than a stagnant one? iPhones still increase, but Android could be the mobile system of the future! And compared to "iOS" it is somehow free which might be interesting for a free project like OSM. Even companies like SonyEricsson started with Android phones although they have their own operating system (which works well). And Motorola would maybe have gone in Europe w/o Android (=> Milestone/Droid). HTC has IMHO a much larger market share compared to only selling WinMobile phones. Best regards, Michael. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch for Newbies
On 21 Aug 2010, at 11:55, NopMap wrote: > > > Hi! > > I am currently writing a How-To for people who have heard about OSM five > minutes ago and whish to contribute some specific POI information. Getting > to the point where they open Potlatch and need to click the Save or Live > mode buttons, I have become painfully aware on how this is inviting desaster > to happen. > > I am trying to interest new people. But that means sending absolutely > clueless folks here and one wrong click at that point and they can mess up > the area for good without even knowing it. > > So my questions are: > - Why don't we disable that Live edit feature for good? I vaguely remember > the question has been raised before, but I just can't think of any use case > where I' need to mess up the data directly with no undo. Potlatch2 that will at some point replace/be used in preference to Potlatch 1 only has the save mode. No live edit mode has been created. > - If it is holy for some historic reason, why can't we put it away into a > power user menu that is well hidden from the newcomer that definitely always > wants and requires a way out if things go awry? Rather than speeding time making changes to the current editor, the developers have decided to spend time on the new editor. > - Is there a way to call Potlatch with a parameter or different URL that > directly goes into save mode and does not show the save-or-sorry selection? No. > - is there any alternative if you need an editor that works online without > the need to install anything locally? > Potlatch 2 is almost ready for the prime time. We're looking for people to test it and see what is an issue and needs to be fixed or changed to improve it. If you don't think Potlatch 2 is ready can you please explain why? Shaun > Pleas help me put my consience at rest :-) > > bye > Nop > > -- > View this message in context: > http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Potlatch-for-Newbies-tp5447342p5447342.html > Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] iPad app
Nick Black wrote: > A possible answer is HTML5 apps - that's what we're looking into at > CloudMade at the moment. An HTML5 POI collector, for example would > let users on iPhone, Android and iPad and other tablets join in the > party. (There are now 8M android phones in the US) It could even be > packaged into an app on app stores to make it discoverable. The apps > should be focused on doing one or two things well. Does the world > need another fully featured editor? IMO, no. I fully agree. HTML5 is probably a good answer for POI collector. It use a developping technology that could deploy on any platform and it's an open standard. iPhone, iPad, Android, computer and future device users would have a tool to mobile map. -- Pierre-Alain Dorange ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] iPad app
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 3:19 PM, Nick Black wrote: > I would love to have an iPad app to map with. I've actually just come > back from a Mapzen POI Collector mapping trip around a town that could > have really used an iPad to add some roads and other features. But > from CloudMade (or Mapquest's) perspective its tough to justify the > cost of developing an iPad app. Mapzen POI Collector only has 7k > downloads and a few hundred users each month - so the market size for > iPhone apps like this is limited. Sure, make the UX 10x better and > there could be thousands of users a month, but its still a limited > number of contributos for the effort put in. Compare that to the 2.5M > Foursquare users or the 60M Farmville (10% of the total number of > Facebook users) users and the number is tiny. Then consider that > there are something like 11M iPhones and only 3M iPads in the US with > even lower iPad penetration in other places, and the market is even > more limited. > > A possible answer is HTML5 apps - that's what we're looking into at > CloudMade at the moment. An HTML5 POI collector, for example would > let users on iPhone, Android and iPad and other tablets join in the > party. (There are now 8M android phones in the US) It could even be > packaged into an app on app stores to make it discoverable. The apps > should be focused on doing one or two things well. Does the world > need another fully featured editor? IMO, no. It needs a suite of > tools that each make it deadly simple to do a couple of things. So > the feature set is going to get even more limited ;-) > > The next problem though is the terrible conversion rates that we see > from download to active mapper (see > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2010-August/052476.html). > This is caused partially by some poor design decision on our part at > CloudMade, but primarily by the constraints of the current OAuth > system as discussed in the thread I referenced. Unless we fix the > problems with the OAuth sign-in / sign-up process the number of new > mappers and tools like this could attract will be severely limited. > Like I said last time - I'm keen to find a solution to this problem > :-) > > My suggestion to this problem is fairly simple: stop trying to make map editors :-) I've tried mapping on my Android phone, and it sucks. This isn't a fault of the editor as such, the screen is small, I can't easily get stuff precise, it's far too easy to break existing stuff, and it's really slow compared to using a mouse and a decent sized screen. On the other hand my phone has a GPS, a camera, an audio recorder, a video recorder, a way to sketch diagrams, and a way to enter text it's all my mapping tools in one handy gadget. Maybe what the millions of people contributing to foursquare are after is a way to just take a few photos, stick them roughly on a map, and stick on a note that the road is oneway in the other direction to what we have it. ie: they probably don't want to learn how to map, or figure out why the street happens to be in 3 pieces and that reversing the oneway means altering the cycle route in the opposite direction -- all of which an editor could make easier, but all of which would make me give up if I was just having a play. Such an app wouldn't need a user account, OAuth, or any other barriers. A nice website to allow downloading the contribution for adding to OSM and integration with an editor or two might encourage some of those people to join us properly. I think we'd be much better off with a bunch of tools designed purely to collect data. Or at least, I'd like this for my phone if anyone gets round to writing it please! None of which is talking about the iPad (sorry Steve), which as it has a bigger screen might make for a fairly nice clipboard replacement. I doubt I'd go mapping with one though because it's still quite heavy. Dave ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] iPad app
Am 20.08.10 21:17, schrieb John Smith: On 21 August 2010 05:12, bernhard zwischenbrugger wrote: But editing with a touchscreen is not easy. How to set a point using a finger? If you put the finger to the screen, you don't see where the point is set. The finger covers the point and it can't be exact. Any idea how to solve this problem? Cross hairs on the screen and then move the screen/cross hairs to the place you really wanted it to be... I started to make an html vector editor. It's a really early prototype and maybe it will not work on all platforms: http://www.khtml.org/osm/v0.79/examples/edit.html The base map (http://khtml.org) should work on iPad (incl. multitouch) but I don't have an iPad and could only test on iPhone. For vector editing I didn't add touch support but mouse events are supported for move nodes. It uses SVG and on Android it will not work - there is no SVG on Android. The crosshair idea is really good, but solves only one part of the UI. The userinterface for Android and iPad/iPhone can't be the same. Android does not support multitouch. Maybe someone could draw a userinterface. Bernhard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] iPad app
The problem with a remote app is that connectivity will really, really suck while you're out wandering around with an ipad. You'll be hopping cell towers, going on to broken wifi networks and half the time things will be very slow or timeout. It strikes me it'll be easier to handle all that in a native app than JS, but feel free to prove me wrong. On Aug 21, 2010, at 10:09 AM, bernhard zwischenbrugger wrote: > Am 20.08.10 21:17, schrieb John Smith: >> On 21 August 2010 05:12, bernhard zwischenbrugger >> wrote: >> >>> But editing with a touchscreen is not easy. >>> How to set a point using a finger? >>> If you put the finger to the screen, you don't see where the point is set. >>> The finger covers the point and it can't be exact. >>> >>> Any idea how to solve this problem? >>> >> Cross hairs on the screen and then move the screen/cross hairs to the >> place you really wanted it to be... >> > I started to make an html vector editor. It's a really early prototype and > maybe it will not work on all platforms: > > http://www.khtml.org/osm/v0.79/examples/edit.html > > The base map (http://khtml.org) should work on iPad (incl. multitouch) but I > don't have an iPad and could only test on iPhone. > For vector editing I didn't add touch support but mouse events are supported > for move nodes. > It uses SVG and on Android it will not work - there is no SVG on Android. > > The crosshair idea is really good, but solves only one part of the UI. > > The userinterface for Android and iPad/iPhone can't be the same. > Android does not support multitouch. > > Maybe someone could draw a userinterface. > > > Bernhard > > > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > Steve stevecoast.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch for Newbies
Graham Jones googlemail.com> writes: > > > Hi, > I think improving the documentation for new users (and experienced ones too!) is a really good idea - I think we lack information for the casual new user. > > The disadvantage of directing this group to Potlatch is that they need to understand quite a few concepts before they can really do anything (nodes, ways, tags, the fact that there is no definitive list of approved tags etc. etc.). This mail from developer mailing list is also worth reading: http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2010-August/020239.html An excerpt from that mail says (please read the whole message still to understand what is the meaning of 'simple editor') "The OSM data model is complex and sophisticated, and any attempts at a 'simple' editor will simply mess up other peoples work. Especially when you start touching relations, which seeing as relations themselves involve nodes and ways that's pretty much any editor." OSM statistics at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats are showing that the number of active OSM contributers stopped growing about one year ago. Perhaps one reason for that is just the complex and sophisticated data model, together with growing interest of creating relations and editors which cannot hide the complexity yet. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] iPad app
Wow, that's pretty cool. What are your development plans? On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 5:09 PM, bernhard zwischenbrugger wrote: > Am 20.08.10 21:17, schrieb John Smith: >> >> On 21 August 2010 05:12, bernhard zwischenbrugger >> wrote: >> >>> >>> But editing with a touchscreen is not easy. >>> How to set a point using a finger? >>> If you put the finger to the screen, you don't see where the point is >>> set. >>> The finger covers the point and it can't be exact. >>> >>> Any idea how to solve this problem? >>> >> >> Cross hairs on the screen and then move the screen/cross hairs to the >> place you really wanted it to be... >> > > I started to make an html vector editor. It's a really early prototype and > maybe it will not work on all platforms: > > http://www.khtml.org/osm/v0.79/examples/edit.html > > The base map (http://khtml.org) should work on iPad (incl. multitouch) but I > don't have an iPad and could only test on iPhone. > For vector editing I didn't add touch support but mouse events are supported > for move nodes. > It uses SVG and on Android it will not work - there is no SVG on Android. > > The crosshair idea is really good, but solves only one part of the UI. > > The userinterface for Android and iPad/iPhone can't be the same. > Android does not support multitouch. > > Maybe someone could draw a userinterface. > > > Bernhard > > > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > -- -- Nick Black twitter.com/nick_b ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] iPad app
On Saturday 21 August 2010, SteveC wrote: > The problem with a remote app is that connectivity will really, really suck > while you're out wandering around with an ipad. You'll be hopping cell > towers, going on to broken wifi networks and half the time things will be > very slow or timeout. It strikes me it'll be easier to handle all that in a > native app than JS, but feel free to prove me wrong. You can make a webapp (almost) as server-connected or server disconnected as you like by making the right design decisions along the way. If you want you could have the only network communication be the initial code/page resource download and the download/upload changeset operations. robert. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] iPad app
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 11:09 AM, bernhard zwischenbrugger wrote: > The userinterface for Android and iPad/iPhone can't be the same. > Android does not support multitouch. My Samsung Galaxy S strongly disagrees with this statement :) Some early android devices didn't do multitouch but I think most of the current ones do. Toby ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] iPad app
Am 21.08.10 19:01, schrieb Toby Murray: On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 11:09 AM, bernhard zwischenbrugger wrote: The userinterface for Android and iPad/iPhone can't be the same. Android does not support multitouch. My Samsung Galaxy S strongly disagrees with this statement :) Some early android devices didn't do multitouch but I think most of the current ones do. The newest Android Phone I tried was the HTC Legend. It supports Pinch to Zoom but no Multitouch in Browser (Android 2.1) It's not a hardware problem. Even the HTC Hero hardware is able to detect the position of more than one finger. There are also Apps that supports Multitouch, but not the Android Browser. Bernhard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch for Newbies
It sounds like Potlatch 2 with a limited, custom list of presets might be exactly what I need. I wasn't even aware that it was in any usable state, but it is probably less dangerous to guide new users to a customized alpha version than let them loose with Potlach in live mode. Drats, another thing to install and customize... :-) bye Nop -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Potlatch-for-Newbies-tp5447342p5448037.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch for Newbies
Hi! Shaun McDonald wrote: > > Rather than speeding time making changes to the current editor, the > developers have decided to spend time on the new editor. > I can't really consider this a valid argument. Removing that single question and replacing it with a default answer should take about a minute if you know where to look for it in the code. Repairing the damage from a single mishap caused by life mode costs considerable more time. bye Nop -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Potlatch-for-Newbies-tp5447342p5448053.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch for Newbies
Hi, NopMap wrote: - Why don't we disable that Live edit feature for good? I vaguely remember the question has been raised before, but I just can't think of any use case where I' need to mess up the data directly with no undo. I'm surprised that nobody has yet pointed out that * Potlatch has a multi-step undo function, even in live mode, and it's been there since 0.9 was released over two years ago. * When you select live mode, you get an extra warning that this is not suitable for beginners, asking you if you want to continue. * Whenever you edit something in lice mode, a big yellow message at the bottom of the screen tells you something like "way moved. z to undo". How is it that we have all these things in place and STILL people claim that "one wrong click at that point and they can mess up the area for good without even knowing it"? Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch for Newbies
Jukka, I think the issue about messing up relations is almost the definition of a 'simple editor' - if it needs to do things with relations, it is getting too complex and a full featured editor should be used instead. The one I was talking about only lets you change specific tags on nodes or ways, or add nodes. Changing geometry or doing complicated things like splitting ways (which is where I think the risk comes from with regard to relations?) is beyond the scope of the 'simple' editor. Therefore I think such a simple editor would be useful for new users to shield them from the underlying complexity, while making a valuable contribution to the project. (if I have got the above wrong and there is scope to break something with the editor I was talking about, we should take this discussion back to the dev-list!). Graham. On 21 August 2010 17:25, Jukka Rahkonen wrote: > Graham Jones googlemail.com> writes: > > > > > > > Hi, > > I think improving the documentation for new users (and experienced ones > too!) > is a really good idea - I think we lack information for the casual new > user. > > > > The disadvantage of directing this group to Potlatch is that they need to > understand quite a few concepts before they can really do anything (nodes, > ways, > tags, the fact that there is no definitive list of approved tags etc. > etc.). > > This mail from developer mailing list is also worth reading: > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2010-August/020239.html > > An excerpt from that mail says (please read the whole message still to > understand what is the meaning of 'simple editor') > > "The OSM data model is complex and sophisticated, and any > attempts at a 'simple' editor will simply mess up other peoples work. > Especially when you start touching relations, which seeing as > relations themselves involve nodes and ways that's pretty much any > editor." > > OSM statistics at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Stats > are showing that the number of active OSM contributers stopped growing > about one > year ago. Perhaps one reason for that is just the complex and sophisticated > data > model, together with growing interest of creating relations and editors > which > cannot hide the complexity yet. > > > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > -- Dr. Graham Jones Hartlepool, UK email: grahamjones...@gmail.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch for Newbies
On Sat, Aug 21, 2010 at 6:55 AM, NopMap wrote: > > > Hi! > > I am currently writing a How-To for people who have heard about OSM five > minutes ago and whish to contribute some specific POI information. Hi Nop, I've been writing some HowTos for beginners as well. Let me know if these help. Index for beginners http://weait.com/content/openstreetmap-beginner Some tutuorials http://weait.com/content/add-restuarant-openstreetmap http://weait.com/content/add-retail-plaza-openstreetmap http://weait.com/content/add-poi-josm Add a trail (added yesterday) http://weait.com/content/add-trail-openstreetmap Q&D Index http://weait.com/content/quick-index-openstreetmap-tutorials ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch for Newbies
On Sat, 21 Aug 2010 03:55:28 -0700 (PDT), NopMap wrote: > Hi! > > I am currently writing a How-To for people who have heard about OSM five > minutes ago and whish to contribute some specific POI information. Getting > to the point where they open Potlatch and need to click the Save or Live > mode buttons, I have become painfully aware on how this is inviting desaster > to happen. > > I am trying to interest new people. But that means sending absolutely > clueless folks here and one wrong click at that point and they can mess up > the area for good without even knowing it. > > So my questions are: > - Why don't we disable that Live edit feature for good? I vaguely remember > the question has been raised before, but I just can't think of any use case > where I' need to mess up the data directly with no undo. > - If it is holy for some historic reason, why can't we put it away into a > power user menu that is well hidden from the newcomer that definitely always > wants and requires a way out if things go awry? I suggest different approach to same problem, limt "Live edit" only to members 3 months old and more. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch for Newbies
On 21.08.2010 21:57, Marjan Vrban wrote: [..] I suggest different approach to same problem, limt "Live edit" only to members 3 months old and more. I don't think that would help: I tried out OSM a few years ago, fixing a very few bugs and left again. Restarting this year using my old account I had no idea how to edit - so if that approach is a good idea, I would prefer changeset counts to measure the skills (while that's everything, but not optimal, too). regards Peter ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Potlatch for Newbies
On 22 August 2010 07:04, Peter Wendorff wrote: > I don't think that would help: I tried out OSM a few years ago, fixing a > very few bugs and left again. > Restarting this year using my old account I had no idea how to edit - so if > that approach is a good idea, I would prefer changeset counts to measure the > skills (while that's everything, but not optimal, too). Types of changes might be an indicator too, did they add a POI, did they edit a street name, did they realign a street, did they edit a relations (intentionally), did they add a new relation... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
