Re: [OSM-talk] [Spam?]Re: [Spam?]Re: Underground / hovering buildings

[M∡rtin Koppenhoefer]

2011/2/18 David Murn :
> Because the use of (min_)levels,height is in use by 3D renderers and


IMHO this min_level-part of the advanced building proposal is not
working (is using wrong semantics), at least for the illustration you
can find in the wiki. building_levels should be the amount of building
levels. If a building forms a "bridge" like in the illustration, where
adjacent buildings have 7 levels, the "bridge" has only 2 levels and
the 5 levels below are void, the proposal states you should still
apply building_levels=7 and count the voids as levels.

This is against any common practise and definition in architecture,
building law and the definition of building_levels in the wiki.

Cheers,
Martin

PS: isn't this a discussion for [tagging] ? I suggest to continue there...

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] [Spam?]Re: [Spam?]Re: Underground / hovering buildings

[David Murn]

On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 11:16 +0100, M∡rtin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 2011/2/18 David Murn :
> > Because the use of (min_)levels,height is in use by 3D renderers and
> 
> 
> IMHO this min_level-part of the advanced building proposal is not
> working (is using wrong semantics), at least for the illustration you
> can find in the wiki. building_levels should be the amount of building
> levels. If a building forms a "bridge" like in the illustration, where
> adjacent buildings have 7 levels, the "bridge" has only 2 levels and
> the 5 levels below are void, the proposal states you should still
> apply building_levels=7 and count the voids as levels.
> 
> This is against any common practise and definition in architecture,
> building law and the definition of building_levels in the wiki.

The wiki page this was taken from, is
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM-3D#Buildings

The relevant section (for building:min_level) states:

---
Explanation of building height tags
For parts of building that are "floating in air" (actually, they are
supported by other building parts that are fixed into ground), number of
floors from ground that are not present. So if there is a passage under
building, where 5 floors are missing, use building:min_level=5 

Note that building:levels still counts floors from the ground, including
also those nonexistent "skipped" floors, as can be seen in the
explanatory picture

number of levels is multiplied by 3 m to estimate the actual height
---

So while it may not meet any building law or such, its use in this
instance is simply as a rough guide instead of inputting an exact
building height.

David


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Announcement: Availability of True Offset web service

[Dermot McNally]

On 18 February 2011 04:08, Steve Bennett  wrote:

> For imagery sources like NearMap*, which support a time dimension,
> maybe it's worth including some kind of date field? That would also be
> helpful for imagery that, even if you can't access older imagery, can
> at least tell you the date of the current stuff, so you'd know if the
> offset was out of date.

Not impossible to incorporate into the service, but where should the
date info come from? The solution doesn't know or care about imagery
tiles, which would be the obvious source.

> Relying on a "mapper to notice that the
> imagery doesn't seem to line up" seems to defeat the purpose of the
> whole thing a bit, in my eyes.

I respectfully disagree. Today's best solution to the problem requires
every mapper to:

* Realise that the default calibration may be incorrect
* Adjust for the error per mapping session, either manually or through
storing and subsequently reusing a bookmark
* Notice whether changes in the base imagery render the assumed
correction factor incorrect and to then recalibrate where that occurs.

True offset requires no more than one mapper to do those things. The
chances of any given mapping session producing offset data are thereby
reduced.

The only dangerous situation I can foresee is where an offset in a
particular area is corrected once, subsequently corrected in the base
imagery _but_ not one single active mapper in the area notices the fix
and therefore the True Offset correction endures, _and_ where future
mappers blindly believe the imagery even though offset from other data
mapped in the area.

My assumption is that this is unlikely in real life. For a correction
to have been stored in the first place requires that an active mapper
of clue has been interested in the area and has traced from that same
imagery. It is unlikely that he will abandon the area, but if he does,
it will likely have reached a level of completeness sufficient to
cause a mapper of less clue to assume that the imagery is right and
the existing data wrong.

But again, even _if_ this were to happen, I think OSM will still
experience a net rise in the accuracy of imagery traced.

> And yes, it is worse, because mappers could end up applying a false
> offset. and not knowing.

They already do that several hundred times a day. It will happen less
if we have a solution like True Offset in the mix.

Dermot

-- 
--
Igaühel on siin oma laul
ja ma oma ei leiagi üles

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[Vladimir Vyskocil]

It seems there is no XAPI server available for a long time, what's going on ? 
Is this service deprecated ?
I think XAPI is very usefull for quick extract using rules, it's a shame we 
can't do this anymore...

Regards,
Vlad.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[80n]

The demand for XAPI is very high but it is currently only running on one
quite small server, so requests will quite often fail.

The main server, called Fafnir[1], has only 4Gb of ram and low end disk
storage.  It's doing the best it can but there is always more demand for
XAPI queries than it can handle.

There was a second server called hypercube that was provided by
Telascience.  However this was migrated to a virtual machine a couple of
months ago and has not, since then, been able to bear much load.  I'm hoping
there will be an upgrade to this server that might help, but don't know when
that will happen.

More XAPI servers running on good hardware is the only realistic solution.

80n

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Servers/fafnir

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Vladimir Vyskocil <
vladimir.vysko...@gmail.com> wrote:

> It seems there is no XAPI server available for a long time, what's going on
> ? Is this service deprecated ?
> I think XAPI is very usefull for quick extract using rules, it's a shame we
> can't do this anymore...
>
> Regards,
> Vlad.
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[Martijn van Exel]

There is the 5ok MapQuest donation earmarked for this, isn't there?
http://blog.osmfoundation.org/2011/01/26/donation-to-osmf-by-mapquestaol/
Is there a plan already on how this is to be spent? Is the XAPI a priority?
It seems a lot of people like it (I do) so I'd be interested to know this.

Martijn

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 5:24 PM, 80n <80n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> The demand for XAPI is very high but it is currently only running on one
> quite small server, so requests will quite often fail.
>
> The main server, called Fafnir[1], has only 4Gb of ram and low end disk
> storage.  It's doing the best it can but there is always more demand for
> XAPI queries than it can handle.
>
> There was a second server called hypercube that was provided by
> Telascience.  However this was migrated to a virtual machine a couple of
> months ago and has not, since then, been able to bear much load.  I'm hoping
> there will be an upgrade to this server that might help, but don't know when
> that will happen.
>
> More XAPI servers running on good hardware is the only realistic solution.
>
> 80n
>
> [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Servers/fafnir
>
>
> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 3:51 PM, Vladimir Vyskocil <
> vladimir.vysko...@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>> It seems there is no XAPI server available for a long time, what's going
>> on ? Is this service deprecated ?
>> I think XAPI is very usefull for quick extract using rules, it's a shame
>> we can't do this anymore...
>>
>> Regards,
>> Vlad.
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>


-- 
Martijn van Exel +++ m...@rtijn.org
laziness – impatience – hubris
http://schaaltreinen.nl | http://martijnvanexel.nl |
http://oegeo.wordpress.com/
twitter / skype: mvexel
flickr: rhodes
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[Richard Fairhurst]

Vladimir Vyskocil wrote:
> It seems there is no XAPI server available for a long time, 
> what's going on ? Is this service deprecated ?

http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/iandees/diary/12916
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/dev/2011-January/021742.html

cheers
Richard


-- 
View this message in context: 
http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Why-isn-t-any-XAPI-server-available-tp6040442p6040666.html
Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[Grant Slater]

On 18 February 2011 15:51, Vladimir Vyskocil
 wrote:
> It seems there is no XAPI server available for a long time, what's going on ? 
> Is this service deprecated ?
> I think XAPI is very usefull for quick extract using rules, it's a shame we 
> can't do this anymore...
>

This question also came up in January, my response then:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2011-January/055884.html

The new java based XAPI is running and responding to test queries, but
be warned it is still under active development. See:
https://github.com/iandees/xapi-servlet
There is also a new UI is available here:
http://www.openstreetmap.us/uixapi/xapi.html

Additional hardware will be available when the new implementation is
ready for production.

Regards
 Grant

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[David Paleino]

On Fri, 18 Feb 2011 16:51:59 +0100, Vladimir Vyskocil wrote:

> It seems there is no XAPI server available for a long time, what's going on ?
> Is this service deprecated ? I think XAPI is very usefull for quick extract
> using rules, it's a shame we can't do this anymore...

If you don't need "live" data, there's also OSM3S. Its data is usually ~1 day
old.

http://78.46.81.38/#chapter.introduction

Kindly,
David

-- 
 . ''`.   Debian developer | http://wiki.debian.org/DavidPaleino
 : :'  : Linuxer #334216 --|-- http://www.hanskalabs.net/
 `. `'`  GPG: 1392B174 | http://deb.li/dapal
   `-   2BAB C625 4E66 E7B8 450A C3E1 E6AA 9017 1392 B174


signature.asc
Description: PGP signature
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[MP]

More XAPI servers running on good hardware is the only realistic 
solution.


Well, there could perhaps be another solution, like running your own 
XAPI server - the minutely diffs are usually less than 100Kb, so the 
required bandwidth to download from planet.openstreetmap.org would be 
less than 2 Kb/second in average.


But the question is - how large would be the planet database on disk 
(how large would it get once you import the planet dump)


I guess the database would be in order of tens of gigabytes, probably 
over 100 GB ...


And how much memory you need on the machine to run some reasonable 
queries (if 4 GiB works for main XAPI server, would it be usable on 
machine with only 1 GiB of memory?)


Martin

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[80n]

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 5:47 PM, MP  wrote:

> More XAPI servers running on good hardware is the only realistic solution.
>>
>
> Well, there could perhaps be another solution, like running your own XAPI
> server - the minutely diffs are usually less than 100Kb, so the required
> bandwidth to download from planet.openstreetmap.org would be less than 2
> Kb/second in average.
>
> But the question is - how large would be the planet database on disk (how
> large would it get once you import the planet dump)
>
> I guess the database would be in order of tens of gigabytes, probably over
> 100 GB ...
>

About 350GB



>
> And how much memory you need on the machine to run some reasonable queries
> (if 4 GiB works for main XAPI server, would it be usable on machine with
> only 1 GiB of memory?)
>

Yes


>
> Martin
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[Graham Jones]

Are the hardware requirements really so modest?

A few weeks ago I tried experimenting by importing just Europe and it took a
week (on my machine which has 2GB memory), so I gave up on the idea of
having my own whole planet database.
Then I had major trouble with the database size growing, and never really
got the 'trimming extra nodes outside of the bounding box' trick working -
that seemed to take so long that I gave up on it.  Maybe you need to do that
after each import, rather than prune it once a week

If people are managing to maintain their own database on modest hardware, I
would be interested to know what hardware and software configuration they
use, because I am thinking of investing in a virtual server to do it, but
want to go for minumum specification to save on the cost.

Graham.

On 18 February 2011 18:27, 80n <80n...@gmail.com> wrote:

> On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 5:47 PM, MP  wrote:
>
>>  More XAPI servers running on good hardware is the only realistic
>>> solution.
>>>
>>
>> Well, there could perhaps be another solution, like running your own XAPI
>> server - the minutely diffs are usually less than 100Kb, so the required
>> bandwidth to download from planet.openstreetmap.org would be less than 2
>> Kb/second in average.
>>
>> But the question is - how large would be the planet database on disk (how
>> large would it get once you import the planet dump)
>>
>> I guess the database would be in order of tens of gigabytes, probably over
>> 100 GB ...
>>
>
> About 350GB
>
>
>
>>
>> And how much memory you need on the machine to run some reasonable queries
>> (if 4 GiB works for main XAPI server, would it be usable on machine with
>> only 1 GiB of memory?)
>>
>
> Yes
>
>
>>
>> Martin
>>
>>
>> ___
>> talk mailing list
>> talk@openstreetmap.org
>> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>>
>
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
>


-- 
Graham Jones
Hartlepool, UK.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[Sami Dalouche]

Something I wonder about :

does osmosis/xapi import the planet dump as-is, or does it do some 
pre-processing to get rid of the history ?
If osmosis is lossless, would it make sense to make a lossy version that 
gets rid of older versions ?


regards,
Sami Dalouche


On 11-02-18 02:29 PM, Graham Jones wrote:

Are the hardware requirements really so modest?
A few weeks ago I tried experimenting by importing just Europe and it 
took a week (on my machine which has 2GB memory), so I gave up on the 
idea of having my own whole planet database.
Then I had major trouble with the database size growing, and never 
really got the 'trimming extra nodes outside of the bounding box' 
trick working - that seemed to take so long that I gave up on it. 
 Maybe you need to do that after each import, rather than prune it 
once a week


If people are managing to maintain their own database on modest 
hardware, I would be interested to know what hardware and software 
configuration they use, because I am thinking of investing in a 
virtual server to do it, but want to go for minumum specification to 
save on the cost.


Graham.

On 18 February 2011 18:27, 80n <80n...@gmail.com 
> wrote:


On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 5:47 PM, MP mailto:singular...@gmail.com>> wrote:

More XAPI servers running on good hardware is the only
realistic solution.


Well, there could perhaps be another solution, like running
your own XAPI server - the minutely diffs are usually less
than 100Kb, so the required bandwidth to download from
planet.openstreetmap.org 
would be less than 2 Kb/second in average.

But the question is - how large would be the planet database
on disk (how large would it get once you import the planet dump)

I guess the database would be in order of tens of gigabytes,
probably over 100 GB ...


About 350GB


And how much memory you need on the machine to run some
reasonable queries (if 4 GiB works for main XAPI server, would
it be usable on machine with only 1 GiB of memory?)


Yes


Martin


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org 
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk



___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org 
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk




--
Graham Jones
Hartlepool, UK.


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[Richard Weait]

On Fri, Feb 18, 2011 at 3:22 PM, Sami Dalouche  wrote:
> Something I wonder about :
>
> does osmosis/xapi import the planet dump as-is, or does it do some
> pre-processing to get rid of the history ?
> If osmosis is lossless, would it make sense to make a lossy version that
> gets rid of older versions ?

planet does not include history.
http://planet.openstreetmap.org/

history dump does include history.
http://planet.openstreetmap.org/full-experimental/

Choose the source you prefer.  ;-)

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[David Murn]

On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 16:59 +, Grant Slater wrote:

> The new java based XAPI is running and responding to test queries, but
> be warned it is still under active development. See:

Am I missing something here...?  People are complaining about how bogged
down and slow the current service is, so its being re-written in java?
Is there any language slower or more resource intensive than java?  If
the service isnt designed to be portable (it only runs on one system
currently, in the world), then who cares about java, why isnt it written
in optimized C or some other similarly lowish level language, rather
than java?

David


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[Ulf Lamping]

Am 18.02.2011 22:47, schrieb David Murn:

On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 16:59 +, Grant Slater wrote:


The new java based XAPI is running and responding to test queries, but
be warned it is still under active development. See:


Am I missing something here...?


Yes, you are missing a few things ;-)


People are complaining about how bogged
down and slow the current service is, so its being re-written in java?
Is there any language slower or more resource intensive than java?


Yes, both.


If
the service isnt designed to be portable (it only runs on one system
currently, in the world), then who cares about java,


What makes you think, that it only has to be running on one system in 
the future?



why isnt it written
in optimized C or some other similarly lowish level language, rather
than java?


Maybe the person actually spending the effort (instead of complaining 
here), is better in writing java than C. Maybe an implementation in java 
is (potentially) more secure compared to a plain C implementation. Maybe ...



If you'll come up with an implementation in C that is more portable, 
robust, faster, ... Fine! Then it will probably be used instead of the 
Java one.


Meanwhile, I'm glad that someone else is doing something against the 
current situation ...


Regards, ULFL

P.S: I've developed stuff in both ANSI-C and Java for several years ...

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

[OSM-talk] BroadbandMap.gov using OpenStreetMap (Cloudmade)

[Samat K Jain]

Just a note: if you're in the USA haven't played with the FCC's new Broadband 
Map tool (warning: it's very, very depressing), they use 
Cloudmade/OpenStreetMap for their maps.

  http://www.broadbandmap.gov/

-- 
Samat K Jain  | GPG: 0x4A456FBA

It may be that our role on this planet is not to worship God but to create him.
-- Arthur C. Clarke (271)


signature.asc
Description: This is a digitally signed message part.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[David Murn]

On Fri, 2011-02-18 at 23:33 +0100, Ulf Lamping wrote:
> Am 18.02.2011 22:47, schrieb David Murn:

> > If the service isnt designed to be portable (it only runs on one system
> > currently, in the world), then who cares about java,
> 
> What makes you think, that it only has to be running on one system in 
> the future?

This is modern-day thinking.  Modern solutions are to simply throw more
money and hardware at a problem, where older techniques called for using
the same hardware but making the code faster.  That then means if you
improve the hardware you get a double-increase in performance.  The
problem these days, is that code is moving to less optimized forms,
because the newer hardware can handle it, where if it was written for
old hardware, it wouldnt be getting as bogged down now.


> > why isnt it written in optimized C or some other similarly lowish
> > level language, rather than java?
> 
> Maybe the person actually spending the effort (instead of complaining 
> here), is better in writing java than C. Maybe an implementation in java 
> is (potentially) more secure compared to a plain C implementation.

Security is all well and good, but if the service is too slow to work
for anyone, what good is an ultra-secure codebase?

> If you'll come up with an implementation in C that is more portable, 
> robust, faster, ... Fine! Then it will probably be used instead of the 
> Java one.

Sounds like fun, Ive been busy writing tag stat programs and programs to
generate map quality information or work on some SVN apps.. If there
arent any programmers who know C who are interested in xapi, then that
sounds like a fun task.

I figured there'd be someone deeper in the coding group of the project,
with more coding knowledge of OSM than myself, who'd be able to do it,
hence why I save my work for the accessory apps.

> P.S: I've developed stuff in both ANSI-C and Java for several years ...

Doesnt it make sense then that if people are complaining about the
performance, it might be worth looking at changing?  Its not like every
user has to run the java code on their own system, it has to be no more
portable than the postgres server running alongside it.  While there may
be cases for using java in a web-app, the same way there are cases for
using flash, I dont think anyone would advocate re-writing xapi in
flash, even if that was the only language they knew.

David


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[Frederik Ramm]

Hi,

David Murn wrote:

Am I missing something here...?  People are complaining about how bogged
down and slow the current service is, so its being re-written in java?
Is there any language slower or more resource intensive than java?


We have no performance comparisons between the old XAPI which was 
written in GT.M (formerly MUMPS), and the new XAPI written in Java. It 
is very well possible that the new version is actually slower than the 
old one on comparable hardware - we simply don't know.


The problem with the old version was that there is practically only one 
person in the whole OSM universe who can work with it (80n) because the 
programming language is so unusual, and everyone else would need quite 
some time to reach 80n's level of proficiency. Which has led people to 
sit back and complain (or politely request features) instead of having a 
go themselves.


It's not that 80n has stopped working on XAPI or refused to cooperate 
but one man can only do so much. (Indeed the old XAPI has, often in 
response to user requests, received a few really innovative features, 
like finding out which versions of nodes match a historic version of a 
way, or listing all past contributors for an object - stuff that the new 
XAPI doesn't even support.)


The hope is that by implementing XAPI in a technology that more people 
are familiar with than with GT.M, more people can be encouraged to help 
XAPI development, and also more people can simply set up their own local 
XAPI, perhaps with a filtered data set, to satisfy their needs.



If the service isnt designed to be portable (it only runs on one system
currently, in the world),


There used to be three XAPI instances, so an effort at distribution has 
been made already and will likely be made in the future.



then who cares about java, why isnt it written
in optimized C or some other similarly lowish level language, rather
than java?


I share your anti-Java sentiment (and would add to it an anti-database 
sentiment). However, in an Open Source project it is often the 
availability of programmers, and not the availability of technologies, 
that dictates how something is done. What good is knowing that 
everything would be faster in C if we don't have anyone to write it?


Plus, there would be some danger to again maneouvre us into a niche 
where nobody but the original programmer dares to touch the code.


Bye
Frederik

--
Frederik Ramm  ##  eMail frede...@remote.org  ##  N49°00'09" E008°23'33"

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[Richard Fairhurst]

David Murn wrote:
> If the service isnt designed to be portable (it only runs on one 
> system currently, in the world), then who cares about java, 
> why isnt it written in optimized C or some other similarly 
> lowish level language, rather than java?

"Your search - murn site:svn.openstreetmap.org - did not match any
documents.

"Suggestions:

"Make sure all words are spelled correctly.
"Try different keywords.
"Try more general keywords.
"Try fewer keywords."

Richard


-- 
View this message in context: 
http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Why-isn-t-any-XAPI-server-available-tp6040442p6041773.html
Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Announcement: Availability of True Offset web service

[Steve Bennett]

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 2:13 AM, Dermot McNally  wrote:
> I respectfully disagree. Today's best solution to the problem requires
> every mapper to:

Ok, I think you're probably right. One thing that would mitigate the
situation I was talking about would be if OSM editors display the
current offset somewhere on the screen. Maybe a little red arrow
pointing in the appropriate direction (and perhaps length indicating
the distance of the offset).

Steve

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Announcement: Availability of True Offset web service

[Dermot McNally]

On 18 February 2011 23:35, Steve Bennett  wrote:

> Ok, I think you're probably right. One thing that would mitigate the
> situation I was talking about would be if OSM editors display the
> current offset somewhere on the screen. Maybe a little red arrow
> pointing in the appropriate direction (and perhaps length indicating
> the distance of the offset).

Hmm, not bad - that is, at any stage that the imagery has been moved
from its default position, there would be a subtle but visible
indicator? That fits in pretty well with our underlying goals with
True Offset, to make sure no mapper traces without realising that
alignment is sometimes wrong, must be considered and can be changed.

That suggestion, of course, would need to be taken up by the authors
of each editor.

Cheers,
Dermot


-- 
--
Igaühel on siin oma laul
ja ma oma ei leiagi üles

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[Ulf Lamping]

Am 19.02.2011 00:02, schrieb David Murn:

This is modern-day thinking.  Modern solutions are to simply throw more
money and hardware at a problem, where older techniques called for using
the same hardware but making the code faster.  That then means if you
improve the hardware you get a double-increase in performance.  The
problem these days, is that code is moving to less optimized forms,
because the newer hardware can handle it, where if it was written for
old hardware, it wouldnt be getting as bogged down now.


I remember the very same discussions about C vs. assembler more than 20 
years ago. You may think about an XAPI implementation in assembler - 
probably even faster than C ;-)



Security is all well and good, but if the service is too slow to work
for anyone, what good is an ultra-secure codebase?


Sorry, this kind of discussion is just pointless.

What good is a C codebase that crashes often, invites everyone to 
install a rootkit and leaks memory as hell?



Doesnt it make sense then that if people are complaining about the
performance, it might be worth looking at changing?  Its not like every
user has to run the java code on their own system, it has to be no more
portable than the postgres server running alongside it.  While there may
be cases for using java in a web-app, the same way there are cases for
using flash, I dont think anyone would advocate re-writing xapi in
flash, even if that was the only language they knew.


If someone would provide an XAPI implementation in flash today that just 
works, it might even have a chance to replace the current implementation :-)


Regards, ULFL

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Announcement: Availability of True Offset web service

[Nic Roets]

Hello Dermot and Steve,

Perhaps one solution would be to make a tool that downloads a few
reference tiles in the target area and then store the MD5 signatures.
Subsequent runs of the tool will check the hashes and generate beeps,
emails or tweets asking a human to check the offsets. And the tool
should be easy to write because it can work on either the compressed
images or a screen capture of an editor.

Regards,
Nic

On Sat, Feb 19, 2011 at 2:52 AM, Dermot McNally  wrote:
> On 18 February 2011 23:35, Steve Bennett  wrote:
>
>> Ok, I think you're probably right. One thing that would mitigate the
>> situation I was talking about would be if OSM editors display the
>> current offset somewhere on the screen. Maybe a little red arrow
>> pointing in the appropriate direction (and perhaps length indicating
>> the distance of the offset).
>
> Hmm, not bad - that is, at any stage that the imagery has been moved
> from its default position, there would be a subtle but visible
> indicator? That fits in pretty well with our underlying goals with
> True Offset, to make sure no mapper traces without realising that
> alignment is sometimes wrong, must be considered and can be changed.
>
> That suggestion, of course, would need to be taken up by the authors
> of each editor.
>
> Cheers,
> Dermot
>
>
> --
> --
> Igaühel on siin oma laul
> ja ma oma ei leiagi üles
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] BroadbandMap.gov using OpenStreetMap (Cloudmade)

[Matthias Meißer]

Great stuff, thanks for the info Samat.

By the way, is there any international page collecting websites that use 
OSM similar to this one for Germany?

http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/DE:OSM_Internet_Links

To me this was a very nice reference for presentations, talks,...etc.

regards
Matthias

___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk

Re: [OSM-talk] Why isn't any XAPI server available ?

[Anders Arnholm]

-BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-
Hash: SHA1

2011-02-18 22:47, David Murn skrev:
> Is there any language slower or more resource intensive than java?

Yes, there are many, Java have is strengths and down sides, Java as any
language have it's strengths and down sides. Speed in Java can be much
better that C, C++ or even hand optimized Assembler. It can also and
java's weak sides, for performance, is it's dependence on garbage
collection. That even is proved mathematically be a more efficient way
of handling memory allocations tends to do the memory handling at for
the user bad times.

And real time performance in almost all applications have very little
with the language to do, but with the chooses of algorithms and
data-storage chosen for the application.

> currently, in the world), then who cares about java, why isnt it written
> in optimized C or some other similarly lowish level language, rather
> than java?

There can be a 1000 reasons, and all valid.
A good team knowing java but not c.
C make to much time go into development compared to an object oriented
language.
C have no good api's to connect to the other services around.
The bottle neck is not at all in the code for the service but in stuff
around it.
When is comes to error's in the code, web, net servers in java are as
possible to break, using java is not a safe way to make sure the code is
correct. It still need to be planned and safe for internet usage. The
typical safety problems thou differ because different things are hard
ans easy in the two language families.

Just a few random morning thoughts.
-BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-
Version: GnuPG v1.4.10 (GNU/Linux)
Comment: Using GnuPG with Mozilla - http://enigmail.mozdev.org/

iEYEARECAAYFAk1fdUwACgkQtbR3SXmySrdAnACgrSQlpvvBNqtT32RlIGBssqMO
npcAoKrP8LY3syoJf3lKl4VdZz5yttkK
=EVqp
-END PGP SIGNATURE-

-- 
This message has been scanned for viruses and
dangerous content by MailScanner, and is
believed to be clean.


___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk