Re: [OSM-talk] #Occupy camps in OSM?
Hi Gregory,
That was me tweeting about Occupy Vancouver (the perils of having a twitter
handle that's unrelated to my real name). I would like to map the internal
structure of the camps in detail, although I am still uncertain if that much
detail makes sense to include in OSM. But I figured that if people were going
to do some mapping, there's no harm in using Walking Papers as their basemap,
whether or not the maps get traced into OSM in the end. Here are a couple
example maps someone else made that used Google Maps as the basemap, so they
can't go into OSM no matter what we decide about tagging and appropriate levels
of detail: http://yfrog.com/nvmzi5j http://yfrog.com/nx3vnnj
Regarding the tags, isn't civil_disobedience=camp_site extremely specific? I
can't really think of any other forms of civil_disobedience that would be
long-lasting enough to include in OSM (and even the #occupy camps are pushing
the limits of appropriate longevity for OSM). Perhaps a more generic tag that
would also work for the refugee camps, too?
Alan
On Nov 8, 2011, at 6:15 AM, Gregory wrote:
> I would suggest it would be nice to do a mashup with OSM + occupy locations.
> But then it is possibly helpful for the locations to be crowd sourced, so you
> could add it into OSM with some tagging that would not disrupt current
> renderers/programs.
>
> Go with civil_disobedience=camp_site?
> I don't know about the other details('bookshops', tents etc), I'd be less
> inclined to add those in.
>
> http://twitter.com/mappingmashups Was tweeting about mapping Occupy
> Vancouver. But I *think* his aim was to map the detail in the areas they are
> occupying.
> http://twitter.com/#!/mappingmashups/status/133662563169869824
>
> Gregory.
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Re: [OSM-talk] #Occupy camps in OSM?
Hi Frederik, On Nov 8, 2011, at 5:34 AM, Frederik Ramm wrote: > I was just pointing out that if a number of people decide to put up tents > somewhere, that place might be a "camp" but not a "camp site", certainly not > one in the sense of tourism=camp_site. (Hint: A camp site is still a camp > site even when there are no tents.) I appreciate your argument that tourism=camp_site might not be the correct tag. I would quibble about the distinction between "camp" and "camp_site"; the #occupy camps are not officially signed or recognized as camp sites, yet they may be so in terms of the on-the-ground rule. In most of the cases where camps have been cleared by police, the protestors have returned and erected new tents. So instead of camps, are they perhaps temporary/provisional/unofficial camp sites? It seems like the crux of the issue is whether the tourism=camp_site tag is meant to exclude all non-touristic camps and camp sites. Or is not relevant that this tag uses the "tourism" key? Couldn't it just as easily have used the leisure, amenity or landuse tag? > The mapping of an #occupy camp itself does not have a political aspect; > what's there on the ground can be mapped. However, attracting above-par > visibility to such a camp by purposefully mis-tagging it as a > "tourism=camp_site" *does* have a political aspect, and would only be > permissible if carried by a vast majority of the project as was the case with > Haiti. I disagree that this is a question about tagging for the renderer. I think the question is whether tourism=camp_site is used and interpreted broadly enough to include a protest camp. If it is interpreted loosely, then using that tag is not "attracting above-par visibility". Also, if we do choose new tags, (and assuming they get onto the mapnik rendering) I would hope that they would be no more or less visible than tourism=camp_site already is, so it's not an attempt to jump up in zoom levels. Personally I think there would be little harm in using the tourism key in this case, but others may disagree. > I think the #occupy camps should be mapped in all detail, with special tags, > and someone should take it upon them to make specialist maps where these tags > are rendered. (Our best zoom level, 18, is not very suitable for camps > anyway, you would want to have 19 or 20 to make a proper camp map.) Good point. This alone might be a good enough reason to use a special rendering, or not use OSM altogether. Alan ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] list of script / import users in the US
I started a list at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/List_of_Import,_Fixbot_and_Script_Users If there is one already, or you think this should be merged into the import catalogue, feel free to do so. Martijn On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 11:06 AM, Martijn van Exel wrote: > Hi all, > I'm looking for a list of OSM users that have been used for imports / > fixbots / scripts. > Is there one? If there isn't, there should be. > Wikipedia has this list fetish[1], it would be nice to see more lists > on the OSM wiki as well. > > Martijn > [1] If you don't know what I'm talking about, take a minute to browse > through > https://secure.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/wiki/Category:Lists_of_things_considered_unusual > -- > martijn van exel > geospatial omnivore > 1109 1st ave #2 > salt lake city, ut 84103 > 801-550-5815 > http://oegeo.wordpress.com > -- martijn van exel geospatial omnivore 1109 1st ave #2 salt lake city, ut 84103 801-550-5815 http://oegeo.wordpress.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] #Occupy camps in OSM?
One of the reasons OSM could distinguish from other maps, is being able to respond quickly to temporarily events. Currently OSM is boaring the same as Google, having the same data, but less, and less accurate on a majority of places and sometimes more on some other places. Good work done of the community (us) but uninteresting, for the masses. Currently innovations based on OSM do not extend beyond YAR (Yet Another Routeplanner) or YAFF (Yet Another Friend Finder): that’s yesterdays innovation. Currently only HOT adds real value to OSM. I agree with Frederick (this time) that temporarily data should not find a place in a permanent database. To be able to stand out from the geo data masses, we should steer away from copying the other mapmakerswe won't win anyway, as we lack money, and scare away those who think instead of click. One direction Google and others do not have taken yet is the possibility to include temporarily data. OSM should find a solution to be able to respond to short time geographic events such as floodings, occupy camps volcanic events, war, territorial disputes (Israel), earthquake events (refugee camps), burning man etc etc, but also for real short time events such as extreme weather areas's (blocked mountain roads, affected areas by hurricanes) and even cultural events (would be nice to include "Woodstock" as destination in YAR, taking traffic jams and temporary parking areas into account). I am also thinking about building sites, future geodata (to be realized constructions, roads or even complete city blocks.) it's not that I need to community to enter that data now, just try to enable our database for it, so we are ready to accept it. Gert Gremmen - Openstreetmap.nl (alias: cetest) Before printing, think about the environment. -Oorspronkelijk bericht- Van: Frederik Ramm [mailto:frede...@remote.org] Verzonden: dinsdag 8 november 2011 0:59 Aan: talk@openstreetmap.org Onderwerp: Re: [OSM-talk] #Occupy camps in OSM? Hi, On 11/08/2011 12:15 AM, Alan McConchie wrote: > I figure we could use many of the same features that Burning Man > uses, primarily tourism:camp_site, plus keys like start_date and > end_date (if applicable). I don't think that it is valid to use Burning Man as a precedent for mapping temporary structures generally. Burning Man is essentially a fun thing in the desert where, even when you map very creatively, nobody cares. You are suggesting to tag, for example, a camp site in the middle of London where there clearly isn't one, and I expect that similar creative tag uses would follow (e.g. people would perhaps find it nice to tag a communal tent where people have beers in the evening as amenity=pub etc.) This would clearly be a violation of the on-the-ground rule. I think it is perfectly acceptable to map such camps when they are halfway stable (I wouldn't use end_date and instead simply delete the stuff when it's over - since you cannot know in advance when it will end). However it is not acceptable to map a camp site or a pub or anything else where there is none just for the sake of having it show up on the default www.openstreetmap.org rendering. Invent your own tags, and produce your own rendering. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Demo editing to OSM data
Contact some local existing contributors before hand. If you let them know what they're doing, they can be understanding when they suddenly see lots of new users adding to the area. They may even be able to come in and help with the demo if you invite them. Almost all mappers are friendly, and will happily message new users if they see something odd, and perhaps fix it themselves. What has caused upset in the past is when local users are not informed of a class. It's confusing to see more than 5 users spring up at once making beginner edits that need to fix. I know someone who was quite upset with the fixing time they spent, but would have been more than happy to do it if they knew to expect it that week. Get the students to write down their username once they've created an account. You could then send the list to the local mappers you have been communicating with, or check the edits yourself. Students don't need to give their real name next to their OSM username. They can be contacted through the OSM message system if there is something they didn't understand. It could even be fun to say user X was the best in the class, and then wait and see who admits to being user X! Please share your experiences. Any lessons you learnt would be good to share at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Education On 1 November 2011 23:08, Martijn van Exel wrote: > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 4:33 PM, Richard Weait wrote: > > On Tue, Nov 1, 2011 at 6:21 PM, Martijn van Exel wrote: > > [ ... ] > >> Potential problem with taking their own neighborhoods is that many > >> students typically live in the same neighborhoods (on campus for > >> example) which may cause conflicts when saving edits. > > > > Quite true. I don't know anything about the students the OP > > describes, but if they are college / university students then they'll > > have their school neighbourhoods with lots of overlap. They'll also > > have their home-neighbourhoods from across the state, country or > > world. That strikes me as an opportunity for new mappers in many > > places with less overlap and risk of conflict. > > > > Anybody want to start OSM local groups at the Big Ten universities? > > Can you imagine the swarms of mappers as they graduate and take jobs > > around the country? > > > > I'm on PAC-12 duty already, plugging: http://www.meetup.com/osmslug/ > Organize an OSM event on GIS day! > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Geography_awareness_week > > -- > martijn van exel > geospatial omnivore > 1109 1st ave #2 > salt lake city, ut 84103 > 801-550-5815 > http://oegeo.wordpress.com > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > -- Gregory o...@livingwithdragons.com http://www.livingwithdragons.com ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] #Occupy camps in OSM?
I would suggest it would be nice to do a mashup with OSM + occupy locations.
But then it is possibly helpful for the locations to be crowd sourced, so
you could add it into OSM with some tagging that would not disrupt current
renderers/programs.
Go with civil_disobedience=camp_site?
I don't know about the other details('bookshops', tents etc), I'd be less
inclined to add those in.
http://twitter.com/mappingmashups Was tweeting about mapping Occupy
Vancouver. But I *think* his aim was to map the detail in the areas they
are occupying.
http://twitter.com/#!/mappingmashups/status/133662563169869824
Gregory.
On 8 November 2011 14:02, Janko Mihelić wrote:
> 2011/11/8 Erik Johansson
>
>> The concept you describe would be the other mantra "tagging for the
>> rendrer", for me at least. Or is my interpretation wrong?
>>
>
> No, it's the opposite.
>
> Tagging *for the renderer* would be to put "tourism=camp_site" although
> it has nothing to do with tourism. Just so it would show a nice icon on the
> map.
>
> Tagging what's *on the ground* would be to put "civil_disobedience=camp_site"
> or something like that although it wouldn't render on openstreetmap.org.
>
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>
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http://www.livingwithdragons.com
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Re: [OSM-talk] #Occupy camps in OSM?
Hi, On 11/08/2011 02:51 PM, Erik Johansson wrote: The concept you describe would be the other mantra "tagging for the rendrer", for me at least. Or is my interpretation wrong? I tried to avoid the phrase but yes, tagging for the renderer is when you decidedly misrepresent the situation on the ground to achieve a desired rendering result - e.g. when you tag a restaurant as a pub because then it appears one zoom level earlier, or when you tag an #occupy camp as a touristic camp site to make it appear on the main map. Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] #Occupy camps in OSM?
2011/11/8 Erik Johansson > The concept you describe would be the other mantra "tagging for the > rendrer", for me at least. Or is my interpretation wrong? > No, it's the opposite. Tagging *for the renderer* would be to put "tourism=camp_site" although it has nothing to do with tourism. Just so it would show a nice icon on the map. Tagging what's *on the ground* would be to put "civil_disobedience=camp_site" or something like that although it wouldn't render on openstreetmap.org. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] #Occupy camps in OSM?
On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 14:34, Frederik Ramm wrote: > I think the #occupy camps should be mapped in all detail, with special tags, > and someone should take it upon them to make specialist maps where these > tags are rendered. (Our best zoom level, 18, is not very suitable for camps > anyway, you would want to have 19 or 20 to make a proper camp map.) The concept you describe would be the other mantra "tagging for the rendrer", for me at least. Or is my interpretation wrong? Of course it's politics, rendering, maps and osm are all about politics. -- /emj ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] #Occupy camps in OSM?
Hi, On 11/08/2011 02:18 PM, Erik Johansson wrote: But there is a camp there, and a book shop, and a toilet. If there are things on the ground you can of course map them. Yes. I was just pointing out that if a number of people decide to put up tents somewhere, that place might be a "camp" but not a "camp site", certainly not one in the sense of tourism=camp_site. (Hint: A camp site is still a camp site even when there are no tents.) When we mapped Haiti after the quake, we as a community decided to violate the "on the ground rule", we mapped touristic camp sites even when we just spotted three makeshift tents on an aerial image with no trace of tourism, with the aim of giving these things prominence on our main map that they would not have achieved had we tagged them e.g. "humanitarian=refugee_camp". We did that on purpose because we were more or less united behind the humanitarian cause, even if it was technically a violation of the rules we apply to our normal work. The mapping of an #occupy camp itself does not have a political aspect; what's there on the ground can be mapped. However, attracting above-par visibility to such a camp by purposefully mis-tagging it as a "tourism=camp_site" *does* have a political aspect, and would only be permissible if carried by a vast majority of the project as was the case with Haiti. I think the #occupy camps should be mapped in all detail, with special tags, and someone should take it upon them to make specialist maps where these tags are rendered. (Our best zoom level, 18, is not very suitable for camps anyway, you would want to have 19 or 20 to make a proper camp map.) Bye Frederik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] #Occupy camps in OSM?
On Tue, Nov 8, 2011 at 00:58, Frederik Ramm wrote: > However it is not acceptable to map a camp site or a pub or anything else > where there is none just for the sake of having it show up on the default > www.openstreetmap.org rendering. But there is a camp there, and a book shop, and a toilet. If there are things on the ground you can of course map them. That camp is more permanent than some of the fashion stores around my block (which reminds me I should delete some again). I find market places more interesting though, as most town square green_grocers are not mapped around here. /Erik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
