Re: [OSM-talk] Komuna e Malishevës, Serbia ?

2012-04-04 Thread Miloš Komarčević 
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 11:43 PM, andrzej zaborowski  wrote:
> 2012/4/4 kmilos :
>> The fact that you you sign off as and support the 'Free Libre Open Source
>> Software KosovA' discredits you from any meaningful discussion, and any
>> claims of the good-willed intentions of an organization bearing such a name.
>
> The fact that you look at who makes a claim before considering the
> arguments they have demonstrated the claim to be true with discredits
> you from any discussion at all I guess.
>

That's a new somersault in logistics.

Bravo, sir!

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Komuna e Malishevës, Serbia ?

2012-04-04 Thread Mikel Maron 
This thread is moderated. Please stop posting to it. If there's a legitimate 
concern, raise through the Disputes channels, documented on the wiki.

http://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2012-April/062624.html

 
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


>
> From: andrzej zaborowski 
>To: kmilos  
>Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org 
>Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 6:43 PM
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Komuna e Malishevës, Serbia ?
> 
>2012/4/4 kmilos :
>> The fact that you you sign off as and support the 'Free Libre Open Source
>> Software KosovA' discredits you from any meaningful discussion, and any
>> claims of the good-willed intentions of an organization bearing such a name.
>
>The fact that you look at who makes a claim before considering the
>arguments they have demonstrated the claim to be true with discredits
>you from any discussion at all I guess.
>
>The "on the ground rule" really is the best, and generally agreed way
>in this project, to avoid political decisions and avoid having a
>database of unverifiable information.  It's the same way linguists
>define natural languages -- a language is what its users use, no
>national or international body has the power to overrule that.
>
>Cheers
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Komuna e Malishevës, Serbia ?

2012-04-04 Thread andrzej zaborowski 
2012/4/4 kmilos :
> The fact that you you sign off as and support the 'Free Libre Open Source
> Software KosovA' discredits you from any meaningful discussion, and any
> claims of the good-willed intentions of an organization bearing such a name.

The fact that you look at who makes a claim before considering the
arguments they have demonstrated the claim to be true with discredits
you from any discussion at all I guess.

The "on the ground rule" really is the best, and generally agreed way
in this project, to avoid political decisions and avoid having a
database of unverifiable information.  It's the same way linguists
define natural languages -- a language is what its users use, no
national or international body has the power to overrule that.

Cheers

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Re: [OSM-talk] Komuna e Malishevës, Serbia ?

2012-04-04 Thread kmilos 
I have a hunch the original problem has to do with objects being tagged as
'place=region'.

For some reason, Nominatim decides to grab and include whatever 50-100km
radius it finds appropriate around such an object. Furthermore, the behavior
of 'place=region' is not well defined [1], so I guess one should use proper
multipolygon/boundary relations instead.

@Mr DuPont
The fact that you you sign off as and support the 'Free Libre Open Source
Software KosovA' discredits you from any meaningful discussion, and any
claims of the good-willed intentions of an organization bearing such a name.

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

For those less informed of the significance and motivations behind the one
letter difference (KosovO vs. KosovA), I'll be happy to elaborate, but I'm
sure Mr DuPont is well aware of the fact, otherwise I'm sure his accomplices
can happily clue him in.

Food for thought Mr DuPont: two wrongs do not make it a right. Balkans is a
tricky place, you really oughtn't take sides that hastily, or at all for
that matter.

Regards,
M

[1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:place%3Dregion

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Re: [OSM-talk] Truth about media hype in Microsoft lending big support and big dollars to OSM ?

2012-04-04 Thread Mikel Maron 
If you think there is a legal issue here to pursue, raise it with the LWG.
 
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


>
> From: ThomasB 
>To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
>Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:38 PM
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Truth about media hype in Microsoft lending big 
>support and big dollars to OSM ?
> 
>
>Mikel Maron wrote
>> 
>> Hi
>> 
>> I think we've squeezed just about enough conspiracy theories out of this
>> thread. Let's end it.
>> 
>> -Moderators
>>  
>> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
>> 
>
>WTF
>This is from Microsoft at #osm-de 10/02/2012
>"Microsoft has received requests from the armed forces to blur areas in
>Germany (StGB 109g is one of the corresponding directives which has been
>used as reference). We, Bing, have to comply with this requests erroneously
>used among other sources also some OSM information. We're working to correct
>the polygons and rework the blurring areas however it will take some time
>due to the amount of processing involved. We understand this is
>objectionable to some members of the OSM community but based on our very
>good relationship we hope and thank you for your understanding and patience"
>
>Nothing happens although it was published here, Steve Coast was involved and
>at least one LWG member is aware of it. If you need more quotes, let me
>know. You can see that they still use OSM polygons here.
>http://osm.misterboo.de/military/
>
>Conspiracy theory? Richard F admitted that there was not contact with
>MS...So MS is violating our license since 3 month and nothing happens.
>
>
>
>
>
>
>--
>View this message in context: 
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>Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Truth about media hype in Microsoft lending big support and big dollars to OSM ?

2012-04-04 Thread ThomasB 

Mikel Maron wrote
> 
> Hi
> 
> I think we've squeezed just about enough conspiracy theories out of this
> thread. Let's end it.
> 
> -Moderators
>  
> * Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron
> 

WTF
This is from Microsoft at #osm-de 10/02/2012
"Microsoft has received requests from the armed forces to blur areas in
Germany (StGB 109g is one of the corresponding directives which has been
used as reference). We, Bing, have to comply with this requests erroneously
used among other sources also some OSM information. We're working to correct
the polygons and rework the blurring areas however it will take some time
due to the amount of processing involved. We understand this is
objectionable to some members of the OSM community but based on our very
good relationship we hope and thank you for your understanding and patience"

Nothing happens although it was published here, Steve Coast was involved and
at least one LWG member is aware of it. If you need more quotes, let me
know. You can see that they still use OSM polygons here.
http://osm.misterboo.de/military/

Conspiracy theory? Richard F admitted that there was not contact with
MS...So MS is violating our license since 3 month and nothing happens.






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Re: [OSM-talk] Truth about media hype in Microsoft lending big support and big dollars to OSM ?

2012-04-04 Thread Mikel Maron 
Hi

I think we've squeezed just about enough conspiracy theories out of this 
thread. Let's end it.

-Moderators
 
* Mikel Maron * +14152835207 @mikel s:mikelmaron


>
> From: ThomasB 
>To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
>Sent: Wednesday, April 4, 2012 4:07 PM
>Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Truth about media hype in Microsoft lending big 
>support and big dollars to OSM ?
> 
>
>Richard Weait wrote
>> 
>> No donor to OSM gets special terms or access to the data.
>> 
>> You and I donate data :: we get OSM data under the OSM License
>> RichardF donates code :: he gets OSM data under the OSM License
>> Yahoo! donated imagery for years :: they get OSM data under the OSM
>> License
>> MapQuest actual big money :: they get OSM data under the OSM License
>> USGS donated PD data :: they get OSM data under the OSM License
>> 
>> etc.
>> 
>> Bing is now donating aerial imagery :: they get OSM data under the OSM
>> License
>> .
>> 
>> It's all the same.
>> 
>No, that's not true.They are violating our license and noone really cares.
>It is known to OSM since January and MS admitted it.
>
>RichardF wrote that there was no contact to MS ...although they violate
>out license.
>The issue was adressed in German media at a press conference with the
>Federal Government and it became public. 
>
>So they are not the same as anyone else. Other companies have been added
>faster to the Hall of Shame of the License Working Group
>
>
>
>
>--
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Re: [OSM-talk] Truth about media hype in Microsoft lending big support and big dollars to OSM ?

2012-04-04 Thread ThomasB 

Richard Weait wrote
> 
> No donor to OSM gets special terms or access to the data.
> 
> You and I donate data :: we get OSM data under the OSM License
> RichardF donates code :: he gets OSM data under the OSM License
> Yahoo! donated imagery for years :: they get OSM data under the OSM
> License
> MapQuest actual big money :: they get OSM data under the OSM License
> USGS donated PD data :: they get OSM data under the OSM License
> 
> etc.
> 
> Bing is now donating aerial imagery :: they get OSM data under the OSM
> License
> .
> 
> It's all the same.
> 
No, that's not true.They are violating our license and noone really cares.
It is known to OSM since January and MS admitted it.

RichardF wrote that there was no contact to MS ...although they violate
out license.
The issue was adressed in German media at a press conference with the
Federal Government and it became public. 

So they are not the same as anyone else. Other companies have been added
faster to the Hall of Shame of the License Working Group




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Re: [OSM-talk] Truth about media hype in Microsoft lending big support and big dollars to OSM ?

2012-04-04 Thread Lester Caine 

Joseph Reeves wrote:

Presumably there's a cost of the bandwidth used and of maintaining the servers;
running anything approaching a SLA is going to cost.

Actually I'd view that the other way around ...
Potentially reducing the load on their own servers because people will use the 
vectorized maps rather than the raw images.
I don't believe that Microsoft are actually 'investing' much at all, simply 
allowing us to use what they are already having to provide as an alternative to 
Google and Yahoo anyway and a little extra load as we digitize them is probably 
only within the load variation day to day?



Microsoft get access to the OSM data the same as anyone else, but they also get
their images vectorised. I don't know if OSM data, or vector data from their
rasters, is of use to them but its a potential bonus. Certainly if I had a load
of images of the world I'd donate them and benefit from some crowd sourced
digitisation.
Microsoft 'support' is purely for brownie points in the open source community so 
they will be more than happy this 'miss-information' that makes them look good? 
I'm happy to make my own material available for anybody to reuse ... my problem 
is getting it scanned in :(


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Re: [OSM-talk] Truth about media hype in Microsoft lending big support and big dollars to OSM ?

2012-04-04 Thread Joseph Reeves 
Presumably there's a cost of the bandwidth used and of maintaining the
servers; running anything approaching a SLA is going to cost.

Microsoft get access to the OSM data the same as anyone else, but they also
get their images vectorised. I don't know if OSM data, or vector data from
their rasters, is of use to them but its a potential bonus. Certainly if I
had a load of images of the world I'd donate them and benefit from some
crowd sourced digitisation.

Joseph
On 4 Apr 2012 19:23, "Lester Caine"  wrote:

> Matthias Meißer wrote:
>
>> Am 03.04.2012 19:14, schrieb yvecai:
>>
>>> Le 03/04/2012 18:56, Richard Fairhurst a écrit :
>>>
 Pieren wrote:

> we have a "media hype" (or media excitement ?) about Microsoft
> investing "big dollars" in OSM. [...]
> Where is the truth here ?
>
 I'm sure we'd all like to know!

 I'm not aware of any announcement being made or (say) any formal contact
 this year between Microsoft and OSMF.

>>> As I've seen no new informations in these articles, I'm inclined to
>>> think it's just a hype about the strategy war between the big 3 or
>>> something like that.
>>>
>>
>> Same for me here. I monitor different media streams for OSM press works
>> and it
>> looked very much like a hype. No investigation and nobody checked the
>> informations, just copy :(
>> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/**wiki/OpenStreetMap_in_the_**media
>>
>> But nevertheless I would agree that Bing gave us a real boost in mapping
>> countryside etc.
>>
>
> But it's not actually costing them anything? They would be putting the
> images up anyway, so THEY are the only ones who gain by getting back free
> vectorized data?
>
> --
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> -
> Contact - 
> http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=**contact
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Re: [OSM-talk] Truth about media hype in Microsoft lending big support and big dollars to OSM ?

2012-04-04 Thread Richard Weait 
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 2:21 PM, Lester Caine  wrote:
> But it's not actually costing them anything? They would be putting the
> images up anyway, so THEY are the only ones who gain by getting back free
> vectorized data?

No donor to OSM gets special terms or access to the data.

You and I donate data :: we get OSM data under the OSM License
RichardF donates code :: he gets OSM data under the OSM License
Yahoo! donated imagery for years :: they get OSM data under the OSM License
MapQuest actual big money :: they get OSM data under the OSM License
USGS donated PD data :: they get OSM data under the OSM License

etc.

Bing is now donating aerial imagery :: they get OSM data under the OSM License

People consume OSM data without making a donation :: they get OSM data
under the OSM License

It's all the same.

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Re: [OSM-talk] Truth about media hype in Microsoft lending big support and big dollars to OSM ?

2012-04-04 Thread Lester Caine 

Matthias Meißer wrote:

Am 03.04.2012 19:14, schrieb yvecai:

Le 03/04/2012 18:56, Richard Fairhurst a écrit :

Pieren wrote:

we have a "media hype" (or media excitement ?) about Microsoft
investing "big dollars" in OSM. [...]
Where is the truth here ?

I'm sure we'd all like to know!

I'm not aware of any announcement being made or (say) any formal contact
this year between Microsoft and OSMF.

As I've seen no new informations in these articles, I'm inclined to
think it's just a hype about the strategy war between the big 3 or
something like that.


Same for me here. I monitor different media streams for OSM press works and it
looked very much like a hype. No investigation and nobody checked the
informations, just copy :(
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetMap_in_the_media

But nevertheless I would agree that Bing gave us a real boost in mapping
countryside etc.


But it's not actually costing them anything? They would be putting the images up 
anyway, so THEY are the only ones who gain by getting back free vectorized data?


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Re: [OSM-talk] Coastline Update

2012-04-04 Thread Paul Norman 
Replication diffs have just resumed from a temporary location. I am not yet
certain if my server will be able to keep up with these diffs. If it is, I
will start another run at about midnight UTC.

I have a good half-dozen apps that consume minutely diffs and I need to
switch all of their locations

> -Original Message-
> From: ThomasB [mailto:toba0...@yahoo.de]
> Sent: Wednesday, April 04, 2012 7:01 AM
> To: talk@openstreetmap.org
> Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Coastline Update
> 
> Hi Paul,
> 
> do you plan another update?
> 
> Regards
> Thomas
> 
> 
> Paul Norman wrote
> >
> > I have completed another coastline generation and it has uploaded.
> > This version respects odbl=clean.
> >
> > The shapefiles are in their normal place at
> > http://pnorman.dev.openstreetmap.org/coastlines/
> >
> > Included is a .osm file with all the error points.
> >
> > An overview can be found at http://maps.paulnorman.ca/coastlines2.png
> > Detailed views:
> > Great Lakes: http://maps.paulnorman.ca/coastlines-lakes2.png
> > Europe: http://maps.paulnorman.ca/coastlines-europe2.png
> > US West Coast: http://maps.paulnorman.ca/coastlines-west2.png
> > Australia: http://maps.paulnorman.ca/coastlines-au2.png
> >
> > There are no significant multi-square flooded or dry areas. The
> > following areas have significant number of error points:
> >
> > Pudget Sound in Washington State
> > The mouth of the Columbia river in Washington The Eastern Australia
> > coast
> >
> >
> > The points indicated by the maps and by processedc_p files are where
> > coastcheck encountered an error and had to guess where the coastline
> > continues. These should generally represent transitions between ODbL
> > clean and ODbL dirty sections of the coastline. Islands with no ODbL
> > clean sections will not generate any error points.
> >
> > http://www.wightpaths.co.uk/coast/CT-only.php and
> > http://suncobalt.homeip.net:82/coastline.php are two visualizations of
> > errors but neither has yet updated to the new data.
> >
> > I hope to complete one more run of the ODbL-clean coastlines before
> > the downtime.
> >
> > During the downtime I will be running a set of ODbL-clean and
> > conventional coastlines (and a planet file).
> >
> > If diffs are available during the rebuild process I will be generating
> > them then and reloading my database when the ODbL planet is published.
> >
> > Technical details:
> > This new run takes into account odbl=clean. It may not correctly
> > handle 1. Objects that are dirty via a changeset override 2. Objects
> > that WTFE reported clean but are now dirty 3. Certain sequences of
> > edits and tag additions that are not likely to occur frequently with
> > coastlines and which require access to a full history database to
> > evaluate
> >
> > The data is from 7 AM PST and the ODbL status is slightly more recent.
> >
> >
> > ___
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> > talk@
> > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> >
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Coastline Update

2012-04-04 Thread ThomasB 
Hi Paul,

do you plan another update?

Regards
Thomas


Paul Norman wrote
> 
> I have completed another coastline generation and it has uploaded. This
> version respects odbl=clean.
> 
> The shapefiles are in their normal place at
> http://pnorman.dev.openstreetmap.org/coastlines/
> 
> Included is a .osm file with all the error points.
> 
> An overview can be found at http://maps.paulnorman.ca/coastlines2.png
> Detailed views:
> Great Lakes: http://maps.paulnorman.ca/coastlines-lakes2.png
> Europe: http://maps.paulnorman.ca/coastlines-europe2.png
> US West Coast: http://maps.paulnorman.ca/coastlines-west2.png
> Australia: http://maps.paulnorman.ca/coastlines-au2.png
> 
> There are no significant multi-square flooded or dry areas. The following
> areas have significant number of error points:
> 
> Pudget Sound in Washington State
> The mouth of the Columbia river in Washington
> The Eastern Australia coast
> 
> 
> The points indicated by the maps and by processedc_p files are where
> coastcheck encountered an error and had to guess where the coastline
> continues. These should generally represent transitions between ODbL clean
> and ODbL dirty sections of the coastline. Islands with no ODbL clean
> sections will not generate any error points.
> 
> http://www.wightpaths.co.uk/coast/CT-only.php and
> http://suncobalt.homeip.net:82/coastline.php are two visualizations of
> errors but neither has yet updated to the new data.
> 
> I hope to complete one more run of the ODbL-clean coastlines before the
> downtime.
> 
> During the downtime I will be running a set of ODbL-clean and conventional
> coastlines (and a planet file).
> 
> If diffs are available during the rebuild process I will be generating
> them
> then and reloading my database when the ODbL planet is published.
> 
> Technical details:
> This new run takes into account odbl=clean. It may not correctly handle
> 1. Objects that are dirty via a changeset override
> 2. Objects that WTFE reported clean but are now dirty
> 3. Certain sequences of edits and tag additions that are not likely to
> occur
> frequently with coastlines and which require access to a full history
> database to evaluate
> 
> The data is from 7 AM PST and the ODbL status is slightly more recent.
> 
> 
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@
> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
> 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Traffic simulation Modeling using OSM data

2012-04-04 Thread Marcus Götz 

Hi,

Just recently we did some traffic/evacuation simulations for indoors. In 
particular we have utilized the multi-agent traveling simulator MATSim 
(www.matsim.org) and IndoorOSM 
(http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/IndoorOSM) data for our simulations. 
The scenario is based on a university building which is fully occupied, 
resulting in 313 agents. Some results are combined in a small video: 
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7u9g022IrVY


Greetings,
Marcus


Am 03.04.2012 12:38, schrieb sourav dutta:


Hi,
Sorry for mailing in so late, i came to know about Gsoc few days ago.
I am Undergraduate doing my Btech-Hons for IIIT - Hyderabad. I have
worked in OCR, Vision,(Sfm) ,Image Processing,Information retrieval.

OSM data have been used for path finding...with A star algo etc.but it
is never used for simulation of traffic.

Traffic monitoring and simulation has been worked on for some time now.
There are very elaborate systems like MITSIM which gather data from
various sources  and  design a traffic model. But the problem is it is
very difficult to implement them. The information about the streets,
traffic
data, satellite data etc. is difficult to gather.
  My idea is to design a traffic simulation using OSM data. as the
OSM data is readily available and is available in many formats. To model the
traffic probabilistic or network flow models are popular. But to get a
more accurate simulation want to use  multiple vehicles as bots
interacting with
each other.
A basic overview of my idea ...

1) first we need the area where want the simulation to run. This would
be done by defining a rectangular region in the map. This data can be stored
in posgreSQL which will make it easier to use the data.
2) Next we define for all the bots - source and destination and this
find the appropriate path(A star) to go.
3) At the heart of the simulation we need to have a engine which would
handle the collision etc. and directs the bots etc. I have tried a few
physics
engine but their performance degrades steeply decreases with the
increase of number of objects.
4)  So I want to use my own engine with only few rules for collision
etc. The brute for implementation would require to check each bot with
other bot
( the same thing which makes other engines slow O(n^2) ). But i plan
to use a implementation of KD-tree, ANN(Approximate nearest neighbour) Open
   source  implementation of the same exists and works pretty well. This
would allow the matching to be done in O(nlogn).
ANN implementation (http://www.cs.umd.edu/~mount/ANN/
)
5) To manage the interaction of the bots the memory requirements
skyrockets as the number of bots increases. ie why i wish to treat them
as Multi-Agent-System
 There are nice implementations of "distributed multi-agent
framework"  which use shared memory to manage the agents( bots in our case).
6)  congestions , bottlenecks and collisions can thus be detected. In
the streets.
7) Future Works - Once this frameworks is complete data from other
sources like the traffic lights flyovers etc.. can be incorporated in
the existing system.

--
Sourav Dutta
CSE,UG3
IIIT H



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Re: [OSM-talk] GSoC mentor for new feature

2012-04-04 Thread Janko Mihelić 
Hello, and thanks for participating in this project!

The openstreetmap transit mailing list would maybe provide more answers:
http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-transit

To see the direction transit on openstreetmap is moving to, you can read
the following wiki page:
http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Public_Transport

Send any questions here!

Janko Mihelić

2012/4/2 Pallav Shinghal 

> Hi,
>
> I'm an undergraduate at the National University of Singapore. I'm
> interested in working with OSM for GSoC 2012. I have been working on
> an idea for a location-based app to enable easier community
> transportation. Only recently, I realized that this app would be
> perfect as an extension to OSM. I understand that this is quite late,
> but are there any mentors I may get in touch with about this?
>
> Thanks,
>
> Pallav Shinghal
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Truth about media hype in Microsoft lending big support and big dollars to OSM ?

2012-04-04 Thread Floris Looijesteijn 
On Wed, Apr 4, 2012 at 9:25 AM, Michael Collinson  wrote:
> On 04/04/2012 04:24, Russ Nelson wrote:
>>
>> Pieren writes:
>>  >  Where is the truth here ? Is the "big support and big money" the
>>  >  access of Bing aerial imagery ? Is that all ?
>>
>> Hey, that's enough for me. I LOVES the Bing aerial imagery. Microsoft
>> is welcome to take all the credit for helping us that they want to
>> take.
>>
>
> +1 to that. There's just one thing that is really important that crowd
> sourcing has difficulty in providing and that is extensive, easy to use
> aerial imagery.

Let's not forget about Yahoo imagery!

I always thought the Bing imagery deal was just something Steve negotiated so
he could get moral support from the OSM community for moving to Microsoft.

Greets,
Floris Looijesteijn

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Re: [OSM-talk] Truth about media hype in Microsoft lending big support and big dollars to OSM ?

2012-04-04 Thread Michael Collinson 

On 04/04/2012 04:24, Russ Nelson wrote:

Pieren writes:
  >  Where is the truth here ? Is the "big support and big money" the
  >  access of Bing aerial imagery ? Is that all ?

Hey, that's enough for me. I LOVES the Bing aerial imagery. Microsoft
is welcome to take all the credit for helping us that they want to
take.
   
+1 to that. There's just one thing that is really important that crowd 
sourcing has difficulty in providing and that is extensive, easy to use 
aerial imagery.


Mike

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