Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] A new tracing layer for TIGER 2013
On Sunday, December 8, 2013, Eric Fischer wrote: > There are only a few colors involved: streets are yellow and railroads are > blue, and both are a little brighter if they have changed since the 2006 > data. Service roads are drawn a little thinner than the rest, following the > example of the 2012 TIGER layer. > More contrast, please! I can't tell the difference between the colors. The change in colors are too subtle to tell apart. And that's coming from me, I have a JOSM stylesheet that colors maxspeed=* to color the same as JOSM colors GPX for car speeds, and I can tell the difference between 30, 35, 40, and 45 MPH at a glance. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] A new tracing layer for TIGER 2013
Thanks for the feedback!
There are only a few colors involved: streets are yellow and railroads are
blue, and both are a little brighter if they have changed since the 2006
data. Service roads are drawn a little thinner than the rest, following the
example of the 2012 TIGER layer.
I actually already have the name expansion ready (thanks to Paul Norman and
Toby Murray) and just need to generate and upload the new tiles.
The code for this one is part of
https://github.com/ericfischer/tiger-deltaand in particular
https://github.com/ericfischer/tiger-delta/blob/master/get-county-delta2
In the screenshot you posted, my intent was not to say that the OSM streets
shown were outdated, but instead to show that the good parts of the TIGER
data are already in OSM. At zoom level 16 and beyond, like the TIGER 2012
layer, this layer shows all the streets in TIGER, whether or not they are
also mapped in OSM. It's only if you zoom out to
http://www.openstreetmap.org/edit#map=15/47.8945/-122.2455 or lower that
streets that are already in OSM will be masked out from those in TIGER.
Would you find it useful to have TIGER-minus-OSM available even when zoomed
all the way in? I thought since all the OSM streets are already visible in
the editor's own display that it would be distracting to draw them twice.
But I am biased because iD shows the live street data at z16+ and doesn't
at zooms <16, and maybe the transition looks weird in JOSM.
Eric
On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 6:32 PM, Clifford Snow wrote:
> Eric,
> One other issue. Here is a link,
> https://www.dropbox.com/s/v1je9m490c0yns4/Why%20Flagged.png, to an area,
> http://osm.org/go/WJIDU~lZs-- near me. You can ignore the crazy tiger
> data on the right! However, notice the streets, 114th St SW, 115th St SW,
> 8th Pl W and 8 Ave W. There all all existing, but were flagged as being
> outdated. Is it because they are not exactly the same as the tiger data?
>
> BTW, I really appreciate the work you are putting into helping us fix
> streets along with Martijn's Battlegrid.
>
> Clifford
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Clifford Snow wrote:
>
>> Eric,
>> A big help would be to have an understanding of how ways are displayed on
>> the overlay. I see different shapes and colors. What do they represent?
>>
>> I can help with the name expansion. I have a fair number of abbreviations
>> that I've used in Washington State.
>>
>> BTW is your code at https://github.com/ericfischer/osm-tiger-update?
>>
>> Clifford
>>
>>
>> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Eric Fischer wrote:
>>
>>> As was just announced on the MapBox blog (
>>> https://www.mapbox.com/blog/openstreetmap-tiger/) there is a new
>>> OpenStreetMap tracing layer for 2013 Census Bureau TIGER map data in the US.
>>>
>>> The main reason for it, aside from incorporating this year's TIGER
>>> changes, is to provide different features at different zoom levels:
>>>
>>> * At zoom 16 and up, like the TIGER 2012 layer, it shows all the current
>>> TIGER roads so that they can be compared with OpenStreetMap and the
>>> discrepancies corrected.
>>>
>>> * At zoom 12-15, it shows only the TIGER roads that have been changed
>>> since the import in 2006, with the current state of OpenStreetMap masked
>>> out, so you see only the places where TIGER has been changed (and
>>> presumably corrected) but OpenStreetMap hasn't. This should give an easier
>>> overview of what places need attention.
>>>
>>> * At zooms below 12, like the Battle Grid, it also shows discrepancies
>>> between OSM and TIGER, but simplified because the individual streets are
>>> too small to draw in detail. It's a static calculation that will get
>>> periodically refreshed, but not instantly, as OpenStreetMap changes.
>>>
>>> The tile URL is http://{switch:a,b,c}.
>>> tiles.mapbox.com/v3/enf.ho204tap,enf.ho20a3n1,enf.game1617/{zoom}/{x}/{y}.pngbut
>>> as the comma-separated list in the URL suggests, it is actually a
>>> composite of three layers that work together:
>>>
>>> TIGER streets/changes:
>>> https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/enf.ho204tap/page.html?secure=1#14/40.3648/-86.8654
>>> OpenStreetMap mask:
>>> https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/enf.ho20a3n1/page.html?secure=1#14/40.3648/-86.8654
>>> Low zooms:
>>> https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/enf.game1617/page.html?secure=1#11/40.3648/-86.8654
>>>
>>> In the pull request for iD (https://github.com/systemed/iD/pull/2010)
>>> Ian Dees pointed out that the abbreviations in street names should expanded
>>> and that it would be good to also include house numbers. I'll be updating
>>> the vector data with expanded names in the next few days and will add the
>>> house numbers as soon as I can. Please let me know if you see anything else
>>> that ought to be better.
>>>
>>> Eric
>>>
>>> ___
>>> Talk-us mailing list
>>> talk...@openstreetmap.org
>>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo
Re: [OSM-talk] The new OpenStreetMap.org design
On 04/12/2013 00:52, John Firebaugh wrote: This past weekend, the OpenStreetMap.org front page launched with a new design. First of all - thanks for posting here. As I mentioned in the other thread it's always helpful to put a human face on some of the design decisions to try and understand the reasons for change, especially when the reactions to the redesign have been "mixed". Concretely, here are the improvements we implemented: Like Christoph Hormann, I'd be interested to see how you are planning to measure these improvements, both for new mappers and for existing ones. What and when are you planning to do in this area? - A better experience for veterans. This is where most of the complaints seem to be targeted (not unnaturally, since new users by definition won't know if they're getting a better or worse experience than they would have had previously). For example, the new design has less space devoted to information and more devoted to a map that may or may not be completely irrelevant. https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/564 is one example of an "irrelevant map", but there are others. The "less space devoted to browse object information" results in the effect that I measured in https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-December/068779.html - roughly 50% more mouse clicks and keypresses needed to do the same job compared to previously. It is now more of a "memory test", since different bits of information that need to be compared are now far less likely to be on the same screen. I'm currently working around this latter problem by killing the css on browse pages when I need to compare stuff - it doesn't look pretty but at least you can read it. In the future, how do you propose to address this? Is there a reason why the left-hand-column size and map picture size are fixed? There's no longer a needless distinction between "browsing" a feature and "viewing it on the map". I'm not convinced that that was a "needless distinction", actually. When sending messages to new mappers trying to help them with stuff I used to use either a "browse" page, a "history" page or a "view on map" page depending on what it was that I wanted to highlight - it's no longer possible to do this with the OSM website. And navigating between features and changesets is fluid, fast, and preserves more context. I'm also less than convinced here (see github issues 568, 576, 581, 585, 588, 589, 591, 619 and 629 at least). In other cases where functionality has been removed (github issue 623 is an example) something that was never intended as an end-user feature (but end-users did find useful) has gone, so it's not in a sense a "bug", but it does decrease the usability of the site. - Bug fixes and usability improvements. Most notably, the site works much better on mobile devices. For other fixes, see the linked issues at end of the pull request ([5]). Some of those seem to be "there was an issue with feature X; we've changed how it looked so we must have fixed the bug". In some cases that simply isn't the case. Take https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/211 which was closed because the page the bug referred to no longer exists in that form (correct - it doesn't). Unfortunately the replacement page has this problem: https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/564 which is a more serious issue than the previous just "needing a better style". It may be that what we need is the current osm.org website for, er, whoever it is for and something else for people who actually need to work with the data. It's something that's covered in detail in the description of https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/631 While here Frederik says a second website won't come any time soon we already have many external tools and collections of tools already available (I'm thinking of Ian Dees' "deep diff" tools and the osmhv ones among others) One other question - OpenStreetMap prides itself on creating a map that's inclusive (Wheelmap, http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OSM_for_the_blind, http://blog.openstreetmap.org/2013/12/03/disability-mapping-openstreetmap/ etc.). What work was done to make sure that the new website is more rather than less accessible than the previous one? I'm thinking particularly of https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/588 here. I have fairly good eyesight but the white-to-cream colour change in the changset list and on the map is difficult to see. Cheers, Andy PS: It was interesting to read the links at the end of your post to the July "Upgraded map controls" mails which include https://lists.openstreetmap.org/pipermail/talk/2013-July/067632.html and the immediately preceding one (which notes the inactivity on the "design" ML). What I'm not seeing is any discussion about design (how do we design
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] A new tracing layer for TIGER 2013
Eric,
One other issue. Here is a link,
https://www.dropbox.com/s/v1je9m490c0yns4/Why%20Flagged.png, to an area,
http://osm.org/go/WJIDU~lZs-- near me. You can ignore the crazy tiger data
on the right! However, notice the streets, 114th St SW, 115th St SW, 8th Pl
W and 8 Ave W. There all all existing, but were flagged as being outdated.
Is it because they are not exactly the same as the tiger data?
BTW, I really appreciate the work you are putting into helping us fix
streets along with Martijn's Battlegrid.
Clifford
On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 11:04 AM, Clifford Snow wrote:
> Eric,
> A big help would be to have an understanding of how ways are displayed on
> the overlay. I see different shapes and colors. What do they represent?
>
> I can help with the name expansion. I have a fair number of abbreviations
> that I've used in Washington State.
>
> BTW is your code at https://github.com/ericfischer/osm-tiger-update?
>
> Clifford
>
>
> On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Eric Fischer wrote:
>
>> As was just announced on the MapBox blog (
>> https://www.mapbox.com/blog/openstreetmap-tiger/) there is a new
>> OpenStreetMap tracing layer for 2013 Census Bureau TIGER map data in the US.
>>
>> The main reason for it, aside from incorporating this year's TIGER
>> changes, is to provide different features at different zoom levels:
>>
>> * At zoom 16 and up, like the TIGER 2012 layer, it shows all the current
>> TIGER roads so that they can be compared with OpenStreetMap and the
>> discrepancies corrected.
>>
>> * At zoom 12-15, it shows only the TIGER roads that have been changed
>> since the import in 2006, with the current state of OpenStreetMap masked
>> out, so you see only the places where TIGER has been changed (and
>> presumably corrected) but OpenStreetMap hasn't. This should give an easier
>> overview of what places need attention.
>>
>> * At zooms below 12, like the Battle Grid, it also shows discrepancies
>> between OSM and TIGER, but simplified because the individual streets are
>> too small to draw in detail. It's a static calculation that will get
>> periodically refreshed, but not instantly, as OpenStreetMap changes.
>>
>> The tile URL is http://{switch:a,b,c}.
>> tiles.mapbox.com/v3/enf.ho204tap,enf.ho20a3n1,enf.game1617/{zoom}/{x}/{y}.pngbut
>> as the comma-separated list in the URL suggests, it is actually a
>> composite of three layers that work together:
>>
>> TIGER streets/changes:
>> https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/enf.ho204tap/page.html?secure=1#14/40.3648/-86.8654
>> OpenStreetMap mask:
>> https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/enf.ho20a3n1/page.html?secure=1#14/40.3648/-86.8654
>> Low zooms:
>> https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/enf.game1617/page.html?secure=1#11/40.3648/-86.8654
>>
>> In the pull request for iD (https://github.com/systemed/iD/pull/2010)
>> Ian Dees pointed out that the abbreviations in street names should expanded
>> and that it would be good to also include house numbers. I'll be updating
>> the vector data with expanded names in the next few days and will add the
>> house numbers as soon as I can. Please let me know if you see anything else
>> that ought to be better.
>>
>> Eric
>>
>> ___
>> Talk-us mailing list
>> talk...@openstreetmap.org
>> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>>
>>
>
>
> --
> Clifford
>
> OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
>
--
Clifford
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Examine nodes in new osm.org design fail
NopMap, Thanks for sharing your opinion, but please refrain from posting sarcastic and overly dramatic stories like this. This message is not an appropriate way to communicate with the community. If you have bug reports or feature requests, please file them on Trac [0] or Github [1]. If you want to have a discussion about the website, please stick to the facts and don't use unsubstantiated words like "royal pain", "what was wrong with the old way", "major regression", or "disaster". Posting friendly, helpful, and constructive messages will make everyone on the list feel interested in participating. Thanks, Ian [0] https://trac.openstreetmap.org/newticket?component=website [1] https://github.com/openstreetmap/openstreetmap-website/issues/new -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Examine-nodes-in-new-osm-org-design-fail-tp5789081p5789104.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Talk-us] A new tracing layer for TIGER 2013
Eric,
A big help would be to have an understanding of how ways are displayed on
the overlay. I see different shapes and colors. What do they represent?
I can help with the name expansion. I have a fair number of abbreviations
that I've used in Washington State.
BTW is your code at https://github.com/ericfischer/osm-tiger-update?
Clifford
On Sun, Dec 8, 2013 at 10:42 AM, Eric Fischer wrote:
> As was just announced on the MapBox blog (
> https://www.mapbox.com/blog/openstreetmap-tiger/) there is a new
> OpenStreetMap tracing layer for 2013 Census Bureau TIGER map data in the US.
>
> The main reason for it, aside from incorporating this year's TIGER
> changes, is to provide different features at different zoom levels:
>
> * At zoom 16 and up, like the TIGER 2012 layer, it shows all the current
> TIGER roads so that they can be compared with OpenStreetMap and the
> discrepancies corrected.
>
> * At zoom 12-15, it shows only the TIGER roads that have been changed
> since the import in 2006, with the current state of OpenStreetMap masked
> out, so you see only the places where TIGER has been changed (and
> presumably corrected) but OpenStreetMap hasn't. This should give an easier
> overview of what places need attention.
>
> * At zooms below 12, like the Battle Grid, it also shows discrepancies
> between OSM and TIGER, but simplified because the individual streets are
> too small to draw in detail. It's a static calculation that will get
> periodically refreshed, but not instantly, as OpenStreetMap changes.
>
> The tile URL is http://{switch:a,b,c}.
> tiles.mapbox.com/v3/enf.ho204tap,enf.ho20a3n1,enf.game1617/{zoom}/{x}/{y}.pngbut
> as the comma-separated list in the URL suggests, it is actually a
> composite of three layers that work together:
>
> TIGER streets/changes:
> https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/enf.ho204tap/page.html?secure=1#14/40.3648/-86.8654
> OpenStreetMap mask:
> https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/enf.ho20a3n1/page.html?secure=1#14/40.3648/-86.8654
> Low zooms:
> https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/enf.game1617/page.html?secure=1#11/40.3648/-86.8654
>
> In the pull request for iD (https://github.com/systemed/iD/pull/2010) Ian
> Dees pointed out that the abbreviations in street names should expanded and
> that it would be good to also include house numbers. I'll be updating the
> vector data with expanded names in the next few days and will add the house
> numbers as soon as I can. Please let me know if you see anything else that
> ought to be better.
>
> Eric
>
> ___
> Talk-us mailing list
> talk...@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk-us
>
>
--
Clifford
OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] A new tracing layer for TIGER 2013
As was just announced on the MapBox blog (
https://www.mapbox.com/blog/openstreetmap-tiger/) there is a new
OpenStreetMap tracing layer for 2013 Census Bureau TIGER map data in the US.
The main reason for it, aside from incorporating this year's TIGER changes,
is to provide different features at different zoom levels:
* At zoom 16 and up, like the TIGER 2012 layer, it shows all the current
TIGER roads so that they can be compared with OpenStreetMap and the
discrepancies corrected.
* At zoom 12-15, it shows only the TIGER roads that have been changed since
the import in 2006, with the current state of OpenStreetMap masked out, so
you see only the places where TIGER has been changed (and presumably
corrected) but OpenStreetMap hasn't. This should give an easier overview of
what places need attention.
* At zooms below 12, like the Battle Grid, it also shows discrepancies
between OSM and TIGER, but simplified because the individual streets are
too small to draw in detail. It's a static calculation that will get
periodically refreshed, but not instantly, as OpenStreetMap changes.
The tile URL is http://{switch:a,b,c}.
tiles.mapbox.com/v3/enf.ho204tap,enf.ho20a3n1,enf.game1617/{zoom}/{x}/{y}.pngbut
as the comma-separated list in the URL suggests, it is actually a
composite of three layers that work together:
TIGER streets/changes:
https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/enf.ho204tap/page.html?secure=1#14/40.3648/-86.8654
OpenStreetMap mask:
https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/enf.ho20a3n1/page.html?secure=1#14/40.3648/-86.8654
Low zooms:
https://a.tiles.mapbox.com/v3/enf.game1617/page.html?secure=1#11/40.3648/-86.8654
In the pull request for iD (https://github.com/systemed/iD/pull/2010) Ian
Dees pointed out that the abbreviations in street names should expanded and
that it would be good to also include house numbers. I'll be updating the
vector data with expanded names in the next few days and will add the house
numbers as soon as I can. Please let me know if you see anything else that
ought to be better.
Eric
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Examine nodes in new osm.org design fail
Hi!
I just tried to examine the history of a well tagged node (273510436) with
the new design for the first time. I was just trying to find out the reason
for some weird naming.
I was really shocked to see that all the tag information is squeezed in into
the narrow sidebar now while most of the screen is covered by the huge map -
which is utterly useless for analyzing tags and history.
The information for the present state of the node is very hard to read in
that narrow table with plenty of unnecessary line wraps.
Looking for the history ("Chronik" in German") I first clicked on the button
labelled "Chronik" conveniently located just above the data. Which of course
kicked me out of it altogether as this is the Changeset list, just waiting
to be misunderstood. The real history is hidden at the very bottom of the
lng table.
Finding it didn't make me any happier. To look at the squeezed history you
need to scroll down more than 60 pages! (yes, sixty pages). Finding and
reading stuff is hard, comparing and analyzing things is a royal pain.
I did not find any way to get rid of the map or extend the sidebar for a
proper and comprehensible look at the data.
What was wrong with the old node/tag/history pages? The at least gave you
more than half the width of the screen to examine the data you are
interested in.
I don't like the new design, but does not make much sense to argue over
something which is mostly a matter of taste. But this is a major regression
in usability.
But the current "presentation" of the histories is a disaster. It might look
nice for very short tag lists, but it is totally unusable for any serious
work or analysis. It desperately needs a way to extend the sidebar to full
screen - or just a way to bring back the old pages.
bye, Nop
--
View this message in context:
http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Examine-nodes-in-new-osm-org-design-fail-tp5789081.html
Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com.
___
talk mailing list
talk@openstreetmap.org
https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hobbyist OSM Data Server?
>You should keep in mind the dev server (errol), both for running >whatever you want to and when planning additional resources if you need >them. You can find information on the dev server at >http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Using_the_dev_server. Hello Paul, If I could use the dev server for this, it would be extremely useful, thanks. I thought current policy was that the dev server was only for hacking on the actual OSM main code. However, what I'd like to offer (a vector tile server) could be potentially useful to many OSM-related projects, and not just my own, so I'm guessing it might be OK to use it for this purpose. I do actually have an account on dev (or at least I did, 3 or 4 years ago; user nick) - I'll try and find the password (which I've completely forgotten ;-) ) I presume people with dev accounts circa 2008/9 or so still have them? Thanks, Nick ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hobbyist OSM Data Server?
> From: Nick Whitelegg [mailto:nick.whitel...@solent.ac.uk] > Sent: Friday, December 06, 2013 4:59 AM > Subject: [OSM-talk] Hobbyist OSM Data Server? > > So I'm wondering whether we could, if enough people raise contributions, > have an OSM "read only, hobbyist" server which could be used to host > not-for-profit, open source (only) projects. it could be either global > or just for the UK (or any other individual country). It could contain a > copy of the OSM PostGIS database then developers could be free to host > server side code which delivers that data in whatever format fits their > own needs (GeoJSON, some binary vector format, or anything else). You should keep in mind the dev server (errol), both for running whatever you want to and when planning additional resources if you need them. You can find information on the dev server at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Using_the_dev_server. The dev server has an osm2pgsql database, kept up to date every hour and imported with hstore and extra attributes (metadata). This is a fairly flexible schema, but it's not too widely know that it's running as a shared resource. It is suitable for rendering and many types of analysis queries, and more flexible than pgsnapshot, apidb or another schema closer to the original OSM data. The database is on the RAID5 array of 7200RPM drives, so it's not exactly fast IO, but it keeps up and isn't maxed out. The server is of course a shared resource, and suffers from the same problem of any shared resource: others badly written code may end up impeding your access. Of course what you're proposing can suffer from that same problem too. The EWG has periodically discussed how the dev server could be more useful, and I know reasonable feedback and ideas are welcome, either at the meetings on Monday (http://www.osmfoundation.org/wiki/Engineering_Working_Group#Meetings) or on the dev@ mailing list. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Hobbyist OSM Data Server?
>If you have a clear picture of what tool you want to run and what it needs, >and you don't have a local community with servers to share, maybe you can >come to us and we'll see if that can be possible ? >http://listes.openstreetmap.fr/wws/info/tech That would be really great, thanks, though someone on the GB list might be able to offer hardware. I will email you again if that is not the case. In terms of my own requirements, I need a PostGIS database generated by osm2pgsql. I also need to be able to deploy my own web services (PHP based) which serve that data in Google XYZ tiles or by bounding box in a variety of projections, and in GeoJSON or custom XML formats. Thanks, Nick -___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] 'Allowed data'
Russ Nelson wrote: > Which is exactly why the 'start_date' and 'end_date' become > important elements. Rather than simply wiping those historic layers > they get an end date, and the editors simply ignore them unless one > has enabled a date range. This then replaces simply deleting > perfectly good data and instead hides it away properly. The > original proposal was that this data would get moved off to OHM, > but that simply does not work when the bulk of the surrounding data > is still required from the OSM version. Yeah, OHM doesn't work, not when railbeds get reused as hiking trails, as some of the Dunderberg railbeds have been, and when the trail gets rerouted onto railbed, as the R-D trail has been. I was looking for railbed off the trail, and found old Red Dot blazes instead. As a simple starting point, it is a fact that much of current history is being mapped and then destroyed! I have been adding roundabouts and new housing developments which involve 'moving' roads that already exist and renaming them. In these instances we have the historic versions already recorded ... just no means of tagging the older versions with the real facts? Some people have no interest in even adding buildings to the data, but as a first step I'm talking about simply retaining the data that we are NOW gathering. I don't think it's unreasonable to guess that 99.9% of that data only needs a start date to then be a complete historic record? YES a small percentage of material is a lot more complex, and developments get started, and evolve beyond what was originally planned, or abandoned. That material may well be a candidate for OHM? Yes once one digs deeper into the life of an object there is a lot more history each element of which needs start and stop dates, and my own 'day job' involves that fine detail, where essentially every 'tag' has a created, start & end date. In a hundred years time the current view of OSM will be history, both because data has yet to be recorded, but also because that data has evolved, and it is simply recording that evolution correctly which needs to start now. There are people who will want to add the history going backwards, and that is just another aspect, but it only requires that the mechanisms are in place to correctly manage the data going forward? The existing data is already an historic record if only we could get at it easier? -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
