Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?
W dniu 14.11.2015 19:44, tony wroblewski napisał(a): I think people need a playpen where they can try out ideas and map before contributing to the main map (Maybe there already is, I don't know). I think it should also be a requirement that people add a I think this is the place for playing with editing OSM (sandbox): http://master.apis.dev.openstreetmap.org -- "Завтра, завтра всё кончится!" [Ф. Достоевский] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?
I like the idea regarding a welcome message from the local community. My explanation for users who registered without mapping: They tried to map something, found the used editor too complicated, and stoped again being afraid to destroy something. So, I think a 1st welcome message with links to e.g. wiki, Taginfo, maybe youtube and hints how to find help from locals would be welcomed by every new user. Gerd Von: Marc Zoutendijk Gesendet: Samstag, 14. November 2015 23:15 An: Clifford Snow Cc: Talk Openstreetmap Betreff: Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low? Op 14 nov. 2015, om 20:49 heeft Clifford Snow mailto:cliff...@snowandsnow.us>> het volgende geschreven: I like that concept. I try to invite new users are in the geographic area of our meetup group. If I think they need a helpful hint I add it to the welcome message. I'd really like to automate the process. Is there a way to automate sending messages to all new users or do you have to send each on individually? Given the number of weekly new mappers (around 10-12) it's easy to send them the message individually. I have prepared a basic text that's being used. I always check what the first edits are, and based on that I sometimes add a more personal note to help them out if it looks they got stuck or if they really messed things up. I'll start doing some statiscal research to see what number of mappers are really returning mappers. But this makes only sense after a few more months. I also noted that some of those mappers have registered themselves months (even years) ago before they start mapping. Marc. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?
> Op 14 nov. 2015, om 20:49 heeft Clifford Snow het > volgende geschreven: > > I like that concept. I try to invite new users are in the geographic area of > our meetup group. If I think they need a helpful hint I add it to the welcome > message. I'd really like to automate the process. Is there a way to automate > sending messages to all new users or do you have to send each on > individually? > Given the number of weekly new mappers (around 10-12) it’s easy to send them the message individually. I have prepared a basic text that’s being used. I always check what the first edits are, and based on that I sometimes add a more personal note to help them out if it looks they got stuck or if they really messed things up. I’ll start doing some statiscal research to see what number of mappers are really returning mappers. But this makes only sense after a few more months. I also noted that some of those mappers have registered themselves months (even years) ago before they start mapping. Marc. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?
Am 14.11.2015 um 18:04 schrieb Michał Brzozowski: ... lots of stuff ... This is not a new complaint/moan. The major issue is the people that have made OSM one of/their major hobby (aka us) fretting about the fact that lots of other people just joined to fix something or test. They typically didn't want to sign up for Facebook 2.0 and most of the time clearly didn't want to engage in long winded discussion about editing corectness. Naturally there are some practical issues on top of that (e-mail etc.), but they are unlikely to play a major role. The good news is that the ratio of Newbies to Old Hands has not really changed over the last couple of years (roughly 2/3 vs 1/3 annually, 10% on a daily base) . We've proven that we are able to deal with the issues in the past, so there is no reason to believe that, with the far better tools and editors that we have now, there is any issue going forward. Simon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?
On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 8:49 PM, Clifford Snow wrote: > I like that concept. I try to invite new users are in the geographic area of > our meetup group. If I think they need a helpful hint I add it to the > welcome message. I'd really like to automate the process. Is there a way to > automate sending messages to all new users or do you have to send each on > individually? There is no *official* API for messages (apparently, for a reason). A few years ago, Andrzej Zaborowski (balrog-kun / sir-mapalot) did send such welcome messages to Polish newcomers - to every fourth mapper, based on (uid mod 4). It was a form of an A/B test, though for results you would have to contact him. If I recall correctly, he told it was statistically insignificant with respect to users' later engagement. I did receive such greeting messsage back in 2012 and probably it helped me to engage with the community (I jumped straight into IRC to ask some questions). Different countries have different main forms of contact (forum, mailing list, IRC, FB, VK and so on) Michał ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?
On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 10:59 AM, Marc Zoutendijk wrote: > A few months ago the Dutch community started sending out a welcome message > to every new mapper with some general info and pointers to useful websites > and wikis. > This helps a lot in making the new mappers feel more at home and make them > more aware of the community. > Maybe and idea? > Here is the link that will show you all new mappers in your country > (replace Countryname with your country of interest) > > http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/newestosmcountryfeed.php?c=Countryname > I like that concept. I try to invite new users are in the geographic area of our meetup group. If I think they need a helpful hint I add it to the welcome message. I'd really like to automate the process. Is there a way to automate sending messages to all new users or do you have to send each on individually? Clifford -- @osm_seattle osm_seattle.snowandsnow.us OpenStreetMap: Maps with a human touch ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?
> Op 14 nov. 2015, om 20:11 heeft Michał Brzozowski het > volgende geschreven: > > Thanks. I use openstreetmap.pl/users - usually (if it isn't out of > sync), it can be faster - resultmaps update only hourly. It is also > connected to the #osm-pl IRC channel. That kind of detail is not relevant. We send out the welcome message about once every 4-5 days. And we send only messages to mappers that realy did edit. Sometimes mappers register only to do their first edit years later…. Marc. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?
> On Nov 14, 2015, at 11:11 AM, Michał Brzozowski wrote: > On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 7:44 PM, tony wroblewski > wrote: > >> I think people need a playpen where they can try out ideas and map >> before contributing to the main map (Maybe there already is, I don't >> know). I think it should also be a requirement that people add a >> comment upon every commit to avoid such arguments. I'm getting a >> little tired of seeing constant updates in my area from people who >> don't add comments on why or what they've changed. > > I do agree this is needed, as in Wikipedia. But how would people get > the feedback on what they mapped? We could require the first few changesets a newbie submits to require review before going into the database. Make it obvious that they are in a trial period so they don’t need to worry about breaking things. We’d need a special queue for these to go into, and a roulette for experienced mappers to yes/no/feedback them. This would also be helpful for when all those new spam accounts starting changing phone numbers to 900 (pay per call) numbers and URLs to malware/scam sites. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?
On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 7:44 PM, tony wroblewski wrote: > From experience, I know that such responses are intimidating and put > people off mapping. My girlfriend started mapping some areas when I > showed her how to do it and immediately somebody sent her an email > saying how she should be doing things because he doesn't map it that > way I do agree there may be no single correct way of mapping some things. I am pretty liberal usually and I think mistakes that I mentioned are quite objective. I don't nag people over things that can be done correctly in many ways. > and in the end she said she didn't like it and felt intimidated and decided > not to carry on. I don't know, majority of us are grown-ups - who would know better that an individual may be not representative of a group, and that one should not take offence easily. It may be that due to our flat structure one can't tell who is important and who is not. > I think people need a playpen where they can try out ideas and map > before contributing to the main map (Maybe there already is, I don't > know). I think it should also be a requirement that people add a > comment upon every commit to avoid such arguments. I'm getting a > little tired of seeing constant updates in my area from people who > don't add comments on why or what they've changed. I do agree this is needed, as in Wikipedia. But how would people get the feedback on what they mapped? We would also need something on the data consumption side. That could be tricky. For instance, routing needs time to import data. Also, we teach people not to tag for the renderer, which is an issue as iD supports much more POI than are rendered by osm-carto. I can imagine that WYSIWYG-ing what is currently could backfire. On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 7:59 PM, Marc Zoutendijk wrote: > Here is the link that will show you all new mappers in your country (replace > Countryname with your country of interest) > > http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/newestosmcountryfeed.php?c=Countryname Thanks. I use openstreetmap.pl/users - usually (if it isn't out of sync), it can be faster - resultmaps update only hourly. It is also connected to the #osm-pl IRC channel. Michał ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?
> Op 14 nov. 2015, om 18:04 heeft Michał Brzozowski het > volgende geschreven: > > > Recently I found out that simple "please fix" or "please respond" (if > edits need clarification) boosts chances for a reply or fixing by the > user. How about we make some tips/guidelines for communications with > newcomers on the Wiki? People could share practices they find most > effective. A few months ago the Dutch community started sending out a welcome message to every new mapper with some general info and pointers to useful websites and wikis. This helps a lot in making the new mappers feel more at home and make them more aware of the community. Maybe and idea? Here is the link that will show you all new mappers in your country (replace Countryname with your country of interest) http://resultmaps.neis-one.org/newestosmcountryfeed.php?c=Countryname Marc. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?
Hi, On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 03:04:41PM +0100, Michał Brzozowski wrote: > I watch what new users do, reviewing their work and I am kind of fed > up with how rarely newbies respond to changeset comments and messages. > Have you observed such low rate in your area? > Is there anything we could do in order to increase it? I feel it's so > futile to ever contact these hit-and-run mappers. Maybe we could take > something from vast existing knowledge on online marketing/UX and see > what can be improved? My experience is that old-timers are much harder to communicate with. Newbies are mostly really happy to find somebody communicating and telling them about better and more tools to find stuff and how stuff works. Oldtimers tend to tell "i have been doing this and that for xyz years it cant be wrong and i know better for shure" - Old habits are difficult to get rid of. Flo -- Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de We need to self-defend - GnuPG/PGP enable your email today! signature.asc Description: Digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?
From experience, I know that such responses are intimidating and put people off mapping. My girlfriend started mapping some areas when I showed her how to do it and immediately somebody sent her an email saying how she should be doing things because he doesn't map it that way (Neither way was official or written down anyway), and in the end she said she didn't like it and felt intimidated and decided not to carry on. I think people need a playpen where they can try out ideas and map before contributing to the main map (Maybe there already is, I don't know). I think it should also be a requirement that people add a comment upon every commit to avoid such arguments. I'm getting a little tired of seeing constant updates in my area from people who don't add comments on why or what they've changed. Tony On 14 November 2015 at 18:04, Michał Brzozowski wrote: > On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Gerd Petermann > wrote: >> I think that's quite okay presuming that many users don't speak english > I forgot to mention. My operations with respect to newcomers are > almost solely in Poland. So I write in Polish. > >> and another group simply doesn't like to be watched / corrected > I thought this is what community is about? Reviewing others' work? ;-) > The things I write about are rather obvious mistakes, like: no main > POI tag (amenity, shop, ...), free text in opening_hours, geometry > errors and so on. > > Recently I found out that simple "please fix" or "please respond" (if > edits need clarification) boosts chances for a reply or fixing by the > user. How about we make some tips/guidelines for communications with > newcomers on the Wiki? People could share practices they find most > effective. > > Michał > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?
Michał Brzozowski wrote > On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Gerd Petermann > < > GPetermann_muenchen@ > > wrote: >> I think that's quite okay presuming that many users don't speak english > I forgot to mention. My operations with respect to newcomers are > almost solely in Poland. So I write in Polish. > >> and another group simply doesn't like to be watched / corrected > I thought this is what community is about? Reviewing others' work? ;-) > The things I write about are rather obvious mistakes, like: no main > POI tag (amenity, shop, ...), free text in opening_hours, geometry > errors and so on. > > Recently I found out that simple "please fix" or "please respond" (if > edits need clarification) boosts chances for a reply or fixing by the > user. How about we make some tips/guidelines for communications with > newcomers on the Wiki? People could share practices they find most > effective. Well, during my worktime I learned that a phrase like this works very well: "please help me to understand why you do it like this ..." or "please explain what the tag xyz means" If you think that you have a better idea, add something like "maybe you meant ?" You don't risk to sound like Big Brother or a smartass, the odds are good that you get a response. Sometimes I just change obvious errors and ask for a review of my changeset. No answer means OK for me, for any answer I say thank you and maybe more where useful. I also learned that in some countries it is not common to say "okay, I've done something wrong, what can we do to make it better?", instead the first thought seems to be "what can I do to keep my face?". Gerd -- View this message in context: http://gis.19327.n5.nabble.com/Why-newbies-comment-message-response-rate-is-so-low-tp5860078p5860092.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?
On Sat, Nov 14, 2015 at 5:19 PM, Gerd Petermann wrote: > I think that's quite okay presuming that many users don't speak english I forgot to mention. My operations with respect to newcomers are almost solely in Poland. So I write in Polish. > and another group simply doesn't like to be watched / corrected I thought this is what community is about? Reviewing others' work? ;-) The things I write about are rather obvious mistakes, like: no main POI tag (amenity, shop, ...), free text in opening_hours, geometry errors and so on. Recently I found out that simple "please fix" or "please respond" (if edits need clarification) boosts chances for a reply or fixing by the user. How about we make some tips/guidelines for communications with newcomers on the Wiki? People could share practices they find most effective. Michał ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
W dniu 03.11.2015 18:40, Daniel Koć napisał(a): W dniu 03.11.2015 13:17, Dave F. napisał(a): 2. Road widths https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4l8ZKWUAA-566.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4tfRDWUAA6AkN.png As can be seen, there's a problem with the new increased widths. At interchanges individually mapped lanes are overlapping turning it into a blob of colour. Wouldn't it be beneficial if the width was reduced when the one-way tag is present? This code change is probably to blame: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1861 Probably this should be reverted or tweaked to be more conservative (it's better if the road is a bit too narrow than a bit too wide). Fast fix (reverting 50% of the latest width increase) has just been merged: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1972#event-464497448 If you want to test it yourself before it will be deployed on OSM servers, you can try installing development environment: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/INSTALL.md https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/657#issuecomment-121279334 -- "Завтра, завтра всё кончится!" [Ф. Достоевский] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Why newbies' comment/message response rate is so low?
I watch what new users do, reviewing their work and I am kind of fed up with how rarely newbies respond to changeset comments and messages. Have you observed such low rate in your area? Is there anything we could do in order to increase it? I feel it's so futile to ever contact these hit-and-run mappers. Maybe we could take something from vast existing knowledge on online marketing/UX and see what can be improved? Michał ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk