Re: [OSM-talk] Building a free/open reviews community w/ OSM support
Hi Erik, Interesting project, though I must admit some caution about its success. How do you plan to develop readership for this site? Yelp seems to have a commanding lead. Pine On Aug 5, 2016 18:17, "Erik Moeller" wrote: > Hi Michał, > > Thanks for your comments! > > On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Michał Brzozowski > wrote: > > > Have you devised any robust algorithm for linking OSM primitives to > > objects in the external database? In general case, it seems really > > hard to track objects as they get converted from nodes to areas, or > > decide whether given OSM feature is no longer representing some entity > > in the external database. > > No, and I'm not very familiar with OSM's data structures and APIs yet. > What I'm imagining for now as the initial OSM-related features are: > > 1) enabling search for POIs similar to http://openpoimap.org/ but more > lightweight and purpose-focused (so you can start a review and just > select a POI from the map to identify it) > > 2) importing (and attributing!) relevant data on demand, which by the > looks of e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/422293736 seems like > it often includes quite a bit of relevant data that future reviewers > would appreciate. > > If possible, I'd also like to add: > > 3) flagging imported data as read-only and synchronizing it in regular > intervals. People who want to improve that data would then just be > pointed to OSM (or Wikidata, or whatever community source). > > I have no intention of performing a bulk import anytime soon; while > this could be good for bootstrapping, it will be too big of a > technical challenge too early, I think. Instead for now we'll > add/import metadata about things we review if/when we review them. > > Do you see fundamental technical challenges with any of the above? I > don't think conversion from nodes to areas would necessarily be > problematic, as long as the sync job can learn that such a change has > occurred to the object it's trying to keep in sync. > > > A framework / API for performing such linking would be of great > > interest, as it could enable many applications to exist on top of OSM > > - recognizing that not everything belongs to OSM. > > *nod* OSM-land is interesting compared with the Wikimedia world I'm > more familiar with, with much more emphasis on a large distributed > community building tools and APIs, some proprietary, some open. I'll > want to look at the state of the open tools out there to see if what > I'm describing above can already be built, or if there's someone who's > willing to collaborate! > > > Regarding the idea, I reckon it may not scale well, if at all. Weeding > > out spammers needs constant attention, and community moderation is > > prone to the Sybil attacks. This may be less of a problem on sites > > such as OSM or Wikipedia where data needs verifiability that or > > another way (so in order to gain trust you have to do actual work). > > Reviews are inherently subjective. Not to mention any legal BS one may > > get from business owners. > > Heh, it's certainly a hard problem. :) Here are a few things to note: > > - Currently the system is invite-only and likely will be for a while. > I reckon building a core community that cares about quality, > organization, etc. will take a while, and we can then give a lot of > those folks permission to also act as moderators so they can ban > spammers once we (temporarily or permanently) open the floodgates. > Invitation is something we can give away liberally, but it functions > as a bit of a barrier to entry for bad faith actors. > > - I'm building into the architecture strong notions of trust and > affiliation. Users can be members of like-minded teams with given > rules (think sub-reddit as an analogy), and they can individually > express trust toward one another, so we can track the trust graph that > allowed an abuser to act with elevated trust levels. Trust will likely > factor into ranking calculations, visibility of content, and so on. To > give an example, it's already the case that the reviews shown on > https://lib.reviews/ are written by users with the "trusted" flag set, > while https://lib.reviews/feed shows all (unfiltered) reviews. > > - In general, my experience with Wikimedia has taught me that > transparent community collaboration in good faith is a pretty good way > to deal with such problems. Wikimedia has to deal with paid PR flacks > regularly, for example, and generally has established procedures for > spotting and kicking out such folks. Similarly, WMF has had to face > down nasty legal threats long before it had a big budget. As long as I > give the community good tools to self-organize rather than following > an enterprise-style approach of solving everything from the top down, > I am optimistic that we can make decisions such as "when do we open > the floodgates" collaboratively.) > > Warmly, > Erik > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openst
Re: [OSM-talk] Building a free/open reviews community w/ OSM support
Hi Michał, Thanks for your comments! On Fri, Aug 5, 2016 at 4:55 PM, Michał Brzozowski wrote: > Have you devised any robust algorithm for linking OSM primitives to > objects in the external database? In general case, it seems really > hard to track objects as they get converted from nodes to areas, or > decide whether given OSM feature is no longer representing some entity > in the external database. No, and I'm not very familiar with OSM's data structures and APIs yet. What I'm imagining for now as the initial OSM-related features are: 1) enabling search for POIs similar to http://openpoimap.org/ but more lightweight and purpose-focused (so you can start a review and just select a POI from the map to identify it) 2) importing (and attributing!) relevant data on demand, which by the looks of e.g. https://www.openstreetmap.org/way/422293736 seems like it often includes quite a bit of relevant data that future reviewers would appreciate. If possible, I'd also like to add: 3) flagging imported data as read-only and synchronizing it in regular intervals. People who want to improve that data would then just be pointed to OSM (or Wikidata, or whatever community source). I have no intention of performing a bulk import anytime soon; while this could be good for bootstrapping, it will be too big of a technical challenge too early, I think. Instead for now we'll add/import metadata about things we review if/when we review them. Do you see fundamental technical challenges with any of the above? I don't think conversion from nodes to areas would necessarily be problematic, as long as the sync job can learn that such a change has occurred to the object it's trying to keep in sync. > A framework / API for performing such linking would be of great > interest, as it could enable many applications to exist on top of OSM > - recognizing that not everything belongs to OSM. *nod* OSM-land is interesting compared with the Wikimedia world I'm more familiar with, with much more emphasis on a large distributed community building tools and APIs, some proprietary, some open. I'll want to look at the state of the open tools out there to see if what I'm describing above can already be built, or if there's someone who's willing to collaborate! > Regarding the idea, I reckon it may not scale well, if at all. Weeding > out spammers needs constant attention, and community moderation is > prone to the Sybil attacks. This may be less of a problem on sites > such as OSM or Wikipedia where data needs verifiability that or > another way (so in order to gain trust you have to do actual work). > Reviews are inherently subjective. Not to mention any legal BS one may > get from business owners. Heh, it's certainly a hard problem. :) Here are a few things to note: - Currently the system is invite-only and likely will be for a while. I reckon building a core community that cares about quality, organization, etc. will take a while, and we can then give a lot of those folks permission to also act as moderators so they can ban spammers once we (temporarily or permanently) open the floodgates. Invitation is something we can give away liberally, but it functions as a bit of a barrier to entry for bad faith actors. - I'm building into the architecture strong notions of trust and affiliation. Users can be members of like-minded teams with given rules (think sub-reddit as an analogy), and they can individually express trust toward one another, so we can track the trust graph that allowed an abuser to act with elevated trust levels. Trust will likely factor into ranking calculations, visibility of content, and so on. To give an example, it's already the case that the reviews shown on https://lib.reviews/ are written by users with the "trusted" flag set, while https://lib.reviews/feed shows all (unfiltered) reviews. - In general, my experience with Wikimedia has taught me that transparent community collaboration in good faith is a pretty good way to deal with such problems. Wikimedia has to deal with paid PR flacks regularly, for example, and generally has established procedures for spotting and kicking out such folks. Similarly, WMF has had to face down nasty legal threats long before it had a big budget. As long as I give the community good tools to self-organize rather than following an enterprise-style approach of solving everything from the top down, I am optimistic that we can make decisions such as "when do we open the floodgates" collaboratively.) Warmly, Erik ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Building a free/open reviews community w/ OSM support
Have you devised any robust algorithm for linking OSM primitives to objects in the external database? In general case, it seems really hard to track objects as they get converted from nodes to areas, or decide whether given OSM feature is no longer representing some entity in the external database. On top of that, people do many stupid things while mapping which could baffle even a sophisticated program. A framework / API for performing such linking would be of great interest, as it could enable many applications to exist on top of OSM - recognizing that not everything belongs to OSM. Regarding the idea, I reckon it may not scale well, if at all. Weeding out spammers needs constant attention, and community moderation is prone to the Sybil attacks. This may be less of a problem on sites such as OSM or Wikipedia where data needs verifiability that or another way (so in order to gain trust you have to do actual work). Reviews are inherently subjective. Not to mention any legal BS one may get from business owners. Michał On Sat, Aug 6, 2016 at 12:55 AM, Erik Moeller wrote: > Hi all, > > I'm working on this project: > > https://lib.reviews/ > > The front page explains the goal: to build a free, open and non-profit > community focused on reviews. Review content is under CC-BY-SA while > the codebase is under CC-0. > > Basic functionality to write reviews is there (we identify things to > review by URL for now), but there's a lot more to come. See the > screencast on the front page for what is working so far. Language is a > first-class citizen: both the UI _and_ all content (including review > texts) are fully translatable. The site should be mobile-friendly, and > work without JavaScript. > > I've long been involved with Wikimedia and am also a big fan of OSM; > these projects are guiding me in terms of the philosophy and > principles behind lib.reviews. See https://lib.reviews/terms which > should give some insight into the project philosophy. > > I've noticed that having reviews associated with OSM data has been > proposed before, e.g. [1], and so I am hoping that OSM and lib.reviews > can become good friends :). The OSM POI data seems like a good way to > bootstrap reviews of restaurants, businesses, and the like. If anyone > wants to already get involved in investigating how this could be made > to work, I'd be more than happy to schedule a video call to walk you > through the codebase and architecture. > > I'm also happy to answer questions on-list or off-list, and if you'd > like an invite-code to play with the functionality that's there so > far, shoot me an offlist note or follow the instructions on the site. > I believe free/open reviews are a critical component of the free > culture ecosystem, alongside maps, encyclopedic content, and other > information. If you agree, hope you'll check it out! > > Warmly, > > Erik > > [1] http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=27837 > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Building a free/open reviews community w/ OSM support
Hi all, I'm working on this project: https://lib.reviews/ The front page explains the goal: to build a free, open and non-profit community focused on reviews. Review content is under CC-BY-SA while the codebase is under CC-0. Basic functionality to write reviews is there (we identify things to review by URL for now), but there's a lot more to come. See the screencast on the front page for what is working so far. Language is a first-class citizen: both the UI _and_ all content (including review texts) are fully translatable. The site should be mobile-friendly, and work without JavaScript. I've long been involved with Wikimedia and am also a big fan of OSM; these projects are guiding me in terms of the philosophy and principles behind lib.reviews. See https://lib.reviews/terms which should give some insight into the project philosophy. I've noticed that having reviews associated with OSM data has been proposed before, e.g. [1], and so I am hoping that OSM and lib.reviews can become good friends :). The OSM POI data seems like a good way to bootstrap reviews of restaurants, businesses, and the like. If anyone wants to already get involved in investigating how this could be made to work, I'd be more than happy to schedule a video call to walk you through the codebase and architecture. I'm also happy to answer questions on-list or off-list, and if you'd like an invite-code to play with the functionality that's there so far, shoot me an offlist note or follow the instructions on the site. I believe free/open reviews are a critical component of the free culture ecosystem, alongside maps, encyclopedic content, and other information. If you agree, hope you'll check it out! Warmly, Erik [1] http://forum.openstreetmap.org/viewtopic.php?id=27837 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] OpenStreetMap "Elbe-Labe Meeting" in October, 8-9th 2016, Dresden, Germany
Dear all, the "Elbe-Labe-Meeting" is an OpenStreetMap community event and will take place in October, 8-9th 2016 in Dresden (Germany). We intend to bring together OpenStreetMap enthusiasts from the Czech Republic, Germany, and beyond. You map, use OpenStreetMap data, or contribute in another way to the project? You are very welcome! We aim to foster exchange between various communities, and in particular between communities of different languages: We all face similar challenges; however, we often do not know how these challenges are addressed in different countries and communities. Why not learn from each other? Our meeting will enable 20-30 people to discuss and exchange views on various OpenStreetMap topics. Participants can contribute and shape our program that will comprise talks and workshops. The language spoken at the meeting will be English. The meeting is organized by the Dresden OpenStreetMap community. When? October, 8-9th, 2016 (arrival on October 7th (evening)) Where? Dresden, Germany Application: You can sign up on our Wiki page here: https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Elbe-Labe-Meeting We will be happy if you consider your registration to be binding (since only a limited number of people can participate). ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Beginning with contribution
On 05/08/2016 07:56, Abhishek Gupta wrote: 1. First of all, is OOP being used in the project? Can I have support the project in a way it improves my OOP skills? Yes, lots of the software are OSM is OO based (and so is pretty much everywhere else in the world today - after all, even OO COBOL is a thing http://www.objs.com/x3h7/oocobol.htm ) If yes, 2. What are the easiest ways to start contributing? (this is the first time I am trying to contribute toward a open source project) The main page of the OSM wiki http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Main_Page has a section on "how to develop and use the platform" http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Develop . There are lots of links there. PS :- I am third year computer science undergraduate. I have done courses in Database Systems, Object Oriented Programming, Data Structure and Algorithms. Will I be requiring background in anything else to get started? A couple of other thoughts... There's a mailing list for "development" stuff over at https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/dev . I'd also mention IRC - see http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/IRC - there's a global #osm channel on OFTC and also a #osm-dev for development and day to day server admin stuff. The wiki has a "top 10 tasks" list over at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Top_Ten_Tasks . That's probably worth a read. There's a help site at https://help.openstreetmap.org/ . That covers more than just development stuff, but you may find answers to questions there. There are various test servers, so if you're doing anything with OSM's main API please don't write test data to the live server. There's a dev API at http://api06.dev.openstreetmap.org/ (among others) that you can use for testing. Finally, I'd make a couple of organisational comments... OSM isn't really an "organised" project in that there isn't one big github repository with everything in it and one main site that everyone uses. You'll probably struggle to find links between stuff. For example, I've linked to the main OSM sites above, but JOSM (one of the main OSM editors, written in Java) has its own site over at https://josm.openstreetmap.de/ , with its own bug tracker, releases etc. The software used to convert OSM data for use with Garmin handhelds is mkgmap, over at http://www.mkgmap.org.uk/ - again, separate releases, documentation, mailing list etc. OSM at its heart is just a big pile of XML data maintained by a community of mappers. It's not really a "computer science" project in that sense (though of course lots of software is used by OSM and by OSM's users). Because there are so many contributors, data consumers need to constantly think about how to deal with keys and values that they might not expect, though http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Elements (and linked pages) should describe the XML structure OK. Best Regards (and good luck), Andy ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Created OpenHistoricalMap Slack Channel
Come join! https://openhistoricalmap.slack.com Hope to make it a vibrant community. *Regards,* *Hans* ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
