Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
On 2020-01-07 08:27, Mateusz Konieczny wrote: 6 Jan 2020, 16:35 by dieterdre...@gmail.com: sent from a phone On 6. Jan 2020, at 07:29, Maarten Deen wrote: Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South America" - this is an example of English imperialism. This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not something that is widely felt. regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning that English is in widespread use because of imperialism. Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons for an international communication is usually not imperialism. I am also not a fan of blaming history for the current situation and taking the long road because you don't like that history. It would mean that I couldn't speak dutch with my Surinam friends just because 400 years ago the ideas of how we should conduct ourselves were different. That is just counterproductive. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
6 Jan 2020, 16:35 by dieterdre...@gmail.com: > > > sent from a phone > >> On 6. Jan 2020, at 07:29, Maarten Deen wrote: >> >>> Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South >>> America" - this is an example of English imperialism. >>> >> >> This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not something that >> is widely felt. >> > > > > regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning that English > is in widespread use because of imperialism. > Yes, but using it for a pragmatic reasons for an international communication is usually not imperialism. I can try to communicate with group of people from different countries in Polish, Latin, Sindarin or Esperanto. But except rare cases using English is likely to result in more efficient communication.___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
On 06/01/2020 09:45, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: but it's quite difficult to decide which tag to use in each region what about … as long as we're discussing relations … a relation could have a node with role `label:xx` where the xx is a language code. it would specify where to put the corresponding name. so for the Baltic Sea, you would have several nodes indicating where to put the several names in the several languages, each next to the corresponding shore. I like the idea, if I understand Marc Gemis correctly, of having (mostly) nameless maps, with transparencies for each language. but yes someone has to program this. one reason for mentioning Morocco: it shows how three names is perceived as too many. the impact on South America could be to name it in Spanish and Portuguese (two languages), and by this we would cover more than 99% of the people living there. North America would need Spanish, English and French, so maybe that would be one language too many. (interesting page, that about "Imperialisme linguistique". the Dutch version of it, very short, mentions Morocco for the other reason I mentioned it myself: the country has experienced French and Arabic cultural imperialism, and is now trying to implement some respect for the majority of their (Amazigh) people. taken to this context, this would be the OSM-people who do not read nor write to this list. mind you, the list is called 'talk', not 'talk:en'.) Interlingua/Lingua Franca would be a nice compromise, at least for South America and the seas next to Spain, France, and Italy, where more than three languages are recognized and even more spoken, but all are neo-latin. I don't know whether anything like this could apply to the Baltic, or to other seas. anyhow, leaving implementations aside, I think that a bit more language-culture agnosticism would not harm OSM. MF ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] JOSM: hover-Coordinate by easy click into clipboard?
I don't know if JOSM can do that, but in the iD editor you can press Ctrl-Shift-M to open the Measurement box, then place a node where you need coordinates. Click on the node, then select the coordinate text in the Measurement box and press Ctrl-C. On 1/6/2020 8:39 PM, tshrub wrote: hi, in JOSM's status bar the mouse position is constantly running as a coordinate. Is there any easy way to get it, may be by keyboard into the clipboard? I want to edit GPS data from, or better: add GPS-data to trackless photos - I want to place them like this with JOSM' sat-pictures. bella saluti ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] JOSM: hover-Coordinate by easy click into clipboard?
hi, in JOSM's status bar the mouse position is constantly running as a coordinate. Is there any easy way to get it, may be by keyboard into the clipboard? I want to edit GPS data from, or better: add GPS-data to trackless photos - I want to place them like this with JOSM' sat-pictures. bella saluti ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
Am Mo., 6. Jan. 2020 um 18:39 Uhr schrieb marc marc <
marc_marc_...@hotmail.com>:
> Le 06.01.20 à 16:35, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit :
> > in OpenStreetMap we’re trying to represent the current state of things
>
> I agree with that.
>
> > English using it in international context as a fallback.
>
> yes as a fallback, not as a rule "international -> name=name:en"
>
agreed.
> but if a lake is in a multi-lingual area, if a country has several
> official languages, if a sea is bordered by countries which together
> have a very small number of names (2 or 3 in the case of the Baltic Sea)
> or even a name with a large majority, if a continent has a majority
> language, there is no obligation to use English as a fallback:
>
agreed. IMHO, if there are only up to 3 languages used by the neighbouring
areas of an international feature, we could put all of them, but returning
to the example of the Baltic Sea, there are more than 2 or 3 languages
involved though, there's Danish, Estonian, Finnish, German, Latvian,
Lithuanian, Polish, Russian, Swedish, and putting all of them would
probably not be desirable. Putting only name:language tags and keep "name"
void would seem the best option, although it would lead to no name in
current OSM-Carto and similar styles.
> if the local community around the lake decides to have a name other
> than English, if a country have a multilingual name, if the community
> of the countries around the Baltic Sea decides to use the most used
> name or a combination of the 3 most common, if a local majority of
> a continent decide to use Portuguese/Spanish or any other language that
> better represents the name as used there, I see no reason for this not
> to happen.
>
agreed, if they all agree, why not.
> but this must be done in a transparent way, (a message on the forum with
> announcements in the national lists?) and then documented on the
> multilingual names page, and not a mecanical edit because a contributor
> wants such a language.
>
and there's always the possibility that at some point someone comes and
challenges the old agreement, so that the whole thing will have to be
discussed again.
>
> Once the language of the name tag is modified, I see no reason why
> the wikipedia language could not be modified in the same language
> as the name if that wikipedia page exists and is not a stub.
>
I do not understand what wikipedia has to do with it. Wikipedia tags are
about articles, its not a given that there will be a wikipedia article with
the same scope in the languages that are relevant. Generally we are
assuming that a wikipedia article reference stands for all languages that
are interlinked within wikipedia (although the mapper will only have
checked one language, the one she has tagged).
Wikipedia is not a dictionary, its structure follows the requirements of an
encyclopedia. Wikidata is not a 1:1 replacement either (particularly as you
can only have one wikipedia article per wikidata entity, and if there are 2
or more WP articles for a given language dealing with different aspects of
a specific thing, it might be possible to sort it out via additional
wikidata objects and relations, but it's not where they currently are,
given all the existing relations of wikipedia articles (in different
languages) to wikidata objects, everytime you add a meta level wikidata
object ("container", "group", "part", etc. example terms maybe not how they
are actually called), you would have to have knowledge about all these
languages in order to reassign them correctly (because if you look at
languages other than English and maybe some other "big" WP languages,
things are still quite often quite bad (personal experience from looking up
things in English, German, Italian, French).
Cheers
Martin
___
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Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
@Martin > You mentioned the cities in Morocco > https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/288704798 > The only difference is that the Baltic Sea involves a couple more languages. no the main difference is : Morocco local rules about name <> one mapper rule about the world talking and (trying to) building a new global rule is fine. having a global rule per contributor only produce edit wars. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
Le 06.01.20 à 16:35, Martin Koppenhoefer a écrit : > in OpenStreetMap we’re trying to represent the current state of things I agree with that. > English using it in international context as a fallback. yes as a fallback, not as a rule "international -> name=name:en" but if a lake is in a multi-lingual area, if a country has several official languages, if a sea is bordered by countries which together have a very small number of names (2 or 3 in the case of the Baltic Sea) or even a name with a large majority, if a continent has a majority language, there is no obligation to use English as a fallback: if the local community around the lake decides to have a name other than English, if a country have a multilingual name, if the community of the countries around the Baltic Sea decides to use the most used name or a combination of the 3 most common, if a local majority of a continent decide to use Portuguese/Spanish or any other language that better represents the name as used there, I see no reason for this not to happen. but this must be done in a transparent way, (a message on the forum with announcements in the national lists?) and then documented on the multilingual names page, and not a mecanical edit because a contributor wants such a language. Once the language of the name tag is modified, I see no reason why the wikipedia language could not be modified in the same language as the name if that wikipedia page exists and is not a stub. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
sent from a phone > On 6. Jan 2020, at 07:29, Maarten Deen wrote: > >> Baltic Sea to be the "Baltic Sea" or for South America to be "South >> America" - this is an example of English imperialism. > > This "imperialism" idea of yours is just your idea. It is not something that > is widely felt. regarding imperialism, I think it’s hard to reject the reasoning that English is in widespread use because of imperialism. We’re all used to it (at least in the western world) and internet and the tech economy have further diffused its use, so currently it is the defacto standard for most international contexts (in other regions and for some specific context it may be Russian or Chinese, Spanish, French etc. all mostly because of imperialism). Not sure this has to be discussed, in OpenStreetMap we’re trying to represent the current state of things, rather than trying to campaign for a state we would prefer (with the exception of Crimea, which is this, an exception, simply because last year the majority of the 5 people that made up the board wasn’t interested in seeing a bigger picture or striving for consistency). English is (shortly before Chinese) the language which most people in the world are able to understand, so there is good reason for using it in international context as a fallback. As OpenStreetMap is not popular in China (AFAIK it’s even forbidden to use it), the logical alternative IMHO isn’t relevant for our context. Esperanto, which you personally seem to prefer, and which is around for 133 years, is only understood by, with most favorable estimates, 2 Million people (compared to billions for English) and while remaining susceptible for criticism of eurocentrism similar to English and not being “neutral” in any way, it is completely artificial so that the “names” in Esperanto are used by nobody. Choosing Esperanto would be a loose-loose situation, from my point of view. Cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
6 Jan 2020, 14:35 by marc.ge...@gmail.com: > So isn't the only conclusion that you can make that pre-rendered tiles > fail as soon as one needs to serve a multi-language audience? > To be more specific - it fails in regions with multiple languages and once someone leaves her/his language area. > Wouldn't the best technical solution be vector tiles (or another > technology) and let the end-user choose in which language the names > are displayed? > Yes, though vector tiles have some other issues (for example geometry distortions). Also, someone needs to implement this. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
> ... the osm.org styles base themselves on the “name” tag to determine the > default style? Or is this that the way the styles are currently defined do > not enable the definition of heuristics to pick the best “name:*” tag if the > “name” tag itself is absent? I really don’t know the styling part of OSM > renderrers, but it seems to be crucial in this discussion: can you elaborate > on this? The "Standard" map layer on openstreetmap.org is in the Openstreetmap-carto style, the details of which are open source at https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/ - most features, including bays, straits, lakes and other large natural features, have a text lable displaed based on the "name=*" tag. This is also common for some other styles which intend to serve the whole globe, since the "name=" tag should include the common local name, in whatever language or langauges the local mappers have chosen as the local standard. In theory we could produce these name labels from tags like "name:de=*" in Germany and "name:de=" + "name:fr=*" + "name:nl=*" in the various parts of Belgium, but it's quite difficult to decide which tag to use in each region. There is currently no agreed-upon way to determine the "default" language of a place on land. I attempted a proposal for this a year ago, but it was not accepted (See issues at https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_features/Default_Language_Format). Before that, two similar proposals were also rejected, so currently there is no information in our database about what name: tags are used locally. As far as I know there is no technically simple way to solve this problem without picking a default language for a global map. The current solution, which lets local mappers manually pick the "name=" for each feature, is not perfect, but it is better than guessing which language to render for each region. While I am still in favor of a solution that adds some sort of "default language and script" tag for each region, it does not seem that there is enough support for that idea to happen, so for now we need to have name=* tags for things that are going to be rendered on global maps. (Note that Openstreetmap-carto does not render the names of oceans, continents and seas, but does render the names of some large bays and straits and islands which are relevant to this discussion) Joseph Eisenberg (One of the maintainers of Openstreetmap-carto, mapper in Indonesia) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
Hi everyone ☺ OK, it seems that the discussions are going wild again in this new year. So let’s keep feelings aside and try to answer with arguments instead ☺ Thanks everyone who does that, you are too many to thank individually ☺ @Mario: I’ve seen a lot of people saying that we shouldn’t remove the “name” tag (and because it already led to a misunderstanding, let’s be precise: I mean the tag whose name is exactly “name”, so we keep the “name:en”, “name:UN:en”, etc., and I only mean that for places like oceans and Antartica), but I haven’t seen any argument for this. Can you elaborate on this? The reason why I believe the “name” tag should not be placed in such place is semantic: there is no best local name, so let’s not put any. This then enables any renderrer to default to a language of their choice (or to check for other, possibly more adequate tags, like “name:UN:*”). If you put a “name” tag here, I can’t do that. I’ve been suggesting to create a renderrer that just uses “name:eo” if present… just to be told right away that this is not a good solution as it would basically chooses the Esperanto name for everything instead of just these places where there is no default language. I think that having an empty “name” tag or not having a “name” tag would be a nice indication that there is not best “name” tag, and leave each renderrer use their heuristics (or just display no name). You mentioned the cities in Morocco. This is a cool example ☺ So for instance there is this node: https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/288704798 (I’ve taken it randomly: I really don’t know this region) It seems to be in a very similar situation than the Baltic Sea we discussed before https://www.openstreetmap.org/node/305640277 So if we can do it in Morocco, would it make sense to do it in the Baltic Sea? (That was basically what this changeset suggested: https://www.openstreetmap.org/changeset/78171743 just that this changeset wasn’t done with the permission of the community.) I like how it renders with the new line between each name ☺ The only difference is that the Baltic Sea involves a couple more languages. Any thoughts about this? @Marc: You seem to understand the issue better than me, but I didn’t understand your answer. From what you said, the osm.org styles base themselves on the “name” tag to determine the default style? Or is this that the way the styles are currently defined do not enable the definition of heuristics to pick the best “name:*” tag if the “name” tag itself is absent? I really don’t know the styling part of OSM renderrers, but it seems to be crucial in this discussion: can you elaborate on this? This would really help ☺ Thanks in advance! ☺ (Here follows the second part, more clumsy and probably less important part of my message ☺) Just to argument against some opinions that have been raised there which made my right eyebrow raised by two centimeters: — Yes, linguistic imperialism is a thing: https://fr.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imp%C3%A9rialisme_linguistique#Les_facettes_de_l'imp%C3%A9rialisme_linguistique_dans_les_grandes_r%C3%A9gions_du_monde The English Wikipedia for this notion is quite poor, so I’m putting the French one. Interestingly enough its discussion page is going as wild as this very thread ☺ — There have been a German-only message three days ago, and it didn’t yield to any frenzy, yet, in this thread, people seems to really don’t like multilanguage posts. The rules of this mailing list are not shown when subscribing, so it is normal that not everyone knows about them. So let’s be calm about it. (And maybe display some rule when subscribing the mailing list?) ☺ — From what I remember, there is no South-America polygon in OSM. And given that about half its population speaks Portuguese as a main language (yes, Brazil is a big country), choosing Spanish for the name tag may not be as natural as it might look like. — Esperanto is not meant to be more easily understandable without learning the language. There are languages with such goals (Interlingua, typically). The goal of (the design behind) Esperanto (before it started to evolve like a natural language) is to reduce the learning time to reach fluency without hindering on the language expressiveness. Amike, Martin. Hi Tomek, and everybody. being this an English list, I'll write in English, I'm tempted to use Spanish, or Italian. my written Latin is poor. I'm sorry to disappoint you as an Esperanto fan, but I understand Polish better than Esperanto. Should I "vote" on your proposal? I consider this the wrong place for holding even the discussion. according to me, using the English language for naming "South America" in the standard map is bad enough, but I do not think (many) people from South America will tell you that **here**, because people who agree with you will not be reading you here. If I know the locals good enough, they would want the map to be in Span
Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
So isn't the only conclusion that you can make that pre-rendered tiles fail as soon as one needs to serve a multi-language audience? Wouldn't the best technical solution be vector tiles (or another technology) and let the end-user choose in which language the names are displayed? Removing the "name" field will not solve the problems on osm.org. The maintainers of the default style (and the other styles on osm.org) will no longer be able to use the name field and will have to pick another one in order to display some label. That choice will never satisfy all needs. E.g. a common question on help.openstreetmap.org and the different fora is to change the labels to language X (typically English, probably related to the nationality of the visitors). m. On Mon, Jan 6, 2020 at 1:50 PM Mario Frasca wrote: > > Hi Tomek, and everybody. > > being this an English list, I'll write in English, I'm tempted to use > Spanish, or Italian. my written Latin is poor. > > I'm sorry to disappoint you as an Esperanto fan, but I understand Polish > better than Esperanto. > > Should I "vote" on your proposal? I consider this the wrong place for > holding even the discussion. according to me, using the English language for > naming "South America" in the standard map is bad enough, but I do not think > (many) people from South America will tell you that **here**, because people > who agree with you will not be reading you here. If I know the locals good > enough, they would want the map to be in Spanish just as they seem to have > the impression that the whole world (around them) speaks Spanish. (I do not > know many people from Cayenne, Brazil, nor Suriname.) > > I disagree that the tag 'name' should be removed, and about the wikipedia > tag, and the fact that it generally points to the english wikipedia version, > too bad. you will not solve this by removing the tag, you may try to educate > Latin speaking people to be more assertive, but I think it's a lost cause. > > I'm aware of one place in the world where they have three national languages: > Morocco, and what happens there is that the map uses the three national > languages for all names, and the map looks so clumsy this way, in particular > with the Amazigh name included (I have tested some locals on their knowledge > of the written language, and I am fairly sure that 95% of Amazigh people > can't even read it). quite regularly, you see people editing the 'name' tag > to make it less clumsy, by removing two of the languages (those they don't > like, I guess). > > so, dear Tomek, I do not know what's the best option, but removing the 'name' > and the 'wikipedia' tag doesn't feel like the best one to me. proposing it > here, even less. my guess is that having a language option on the rendered > map would be better than this that you propose. for some locations, I indeed > prefer the openstreetmap.fr map. > > as for the replies you are getting, I've noticed a dichotomy in the > community: people focusing on the actual point, and people focusing on the > form. seems "cultural", and seems that European toes are less easily stepped > upon. "you may try to educate English speaking people to be less assertive" > ;=) > > anyhow, cheers, and happy mapping, > > MF > > (nie piszem w twojm języku … want ik ken het niet, not enough at least.) > > On 05/01/2020 20:39, Tomek wrote: > > W dniu 20-01-06 o 02:25, stevea pisze: > > It's easy to goof things up and we shouldn't. > > EO > Pardonu, mi ne estas provokisto, mi ne kondutas malserioze. > > Mi skribas en mia lingvo (pola) en internacia lingvo (Esperanto) kaj iam en > via lingvo (angla), kial vi ne estimas min kaj ne parolas en mia lingvo? > > Bonvolu koncentriĝu pri solvi la problemon pri nomoj. > > > > PL > Przepraszam, nie jestem jakimś prowokatorem, nie wygłupiam się. > Piszę w moim języku (polskim) w języku międzynarodowym (Esperanto) i czasami > w Twoim (angielskim), dlaczego Ty nie piszesz w moim języku? > > Proszę skoncentrować się na rozwiązaniu problemu nazw. > > > > EN > I'm sorry, I'm not some kind of provocateur, I'm not fooling around. > I write in my (Polish) language in the international language (Esperanto) and > sometimes in your (English), why don't you write in my language? > > Please focus on resolving the name problem. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
Hi Tomek, and everybody. being this an English list, I'll write in English, I'm tempted to use Spanish, or Italian. my written Latin is poor. I'm sorry to disappoint you as an Esperanto fan, but I understand Polish better than Esperanto. Should I "vote" on your proposal? I consider this the wrong place for holding even the discussion. according to me, using the English language for naming "South America" in the standard map is bad enough, but I do not think (many) people from South America will tell you that **here**, because people who agree with you will not be reading you here. If I know the locals good enough, they would want the map to be in Spanish just as they seem to have the impression that the whole world (around them) speaks Spanish. (I do not know many people from Cayenne, Brazil, nor Suriname.) I disagree that the tag 'name' should be removed, and about the wikipedia tag, and the fact that it generally points to the english wikipedia version, too bad. you will not solve this by removing the tag, you may try to educate Latin speaking people to be more assertive, but I think it's a lost cause. I'm aware of one place in the world where they have three national languages: Morocco, and what happens there is that the map uses the three national languages for all names, and the map looks so clumsy this way, in particular with the Amazigh name included (I have tested some locals on their knowledge of the written language, and I am fairly sure that 95% of Amazigh people can't even read it). quite regularly, you see people editing the 'name' tag to make it less clumsy, by removing two of the languages (those they don't like, I guess). so, dear Tomek, I do not know what's the best option, but removing the 'name' and the 'wikipedia' tag doesn't feel like the best one to me. proposing it here, even less. my guess is that having a language option on the rendered map would be better than this that you propose. for some locations, I indeed prefer the openstreetmap.fr map. as for the replies you are getting, I've noticed a dichotomy in the community: people focusing on the actual point, and people focusing on the form. seems "cultural", and seems that European toes are less easily stepped upon. "you may try to educate English speaking people to be less assertive" ;=) anyhow, cheers, and happy mapping, MF (nie piszem w twojm języku … want ik ken het niet, not enough at least.) On 05/01/2020 20:39, Tomek wrote: W dniu 20-01-06 o 02:25, stevea pisze: It's easy to goof things up and we shouldn't. EO Pardonu, mi ne estas provokisto, mi ne kondutas malserioze. Mi skribas en mia lingvo (pola) en internacia lingvo (Esperanto) kaj iam en via lingvo (angla), kial vi ne estimas min kaj ne parolas en mia lingvo? Bonvolu koncentriĝu pri solvi la problemon pri nomoj. PL Przepraszam, nie jestem jakimś prowokatorem, nie wygłupiam się. Piszę w moim języku (polskim) w języku międzynarodowym (Esperanto) i czasami w Twoim (angielskim), dlaczego Ty nie piszesz w moim języku? Proszę skoncentrować się na rozwiązaniu problemu nazw. EN I'm sorry, I'm not some kind of provocateur, I'm not fooling around. I write in my (Polish) language in the international language (Esperanto) and sometimes in your (English), why don't you write in my language? Please focus on resolving the name problem. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
