Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
On 24/02/2020 06:53, Joseph Eisenberg wrote: It is quite reasonable to question the use of English in the `name=` tag for the Baltic Sea. It would be reasonable to stop using the name= tag for oceans, continents and international seas, if we can develop a tag which would specify which of the `name:=` tags should be treated as the primary ones. This would make it more feasible to design a rendering for the Baltic Sea, the Mediterranean, and other seas surrounding by a large number of language areas. For the oceans and continents there may not be much use in a name tag, since these labels only make sense on a global map. A map designer or user can pick the language in that case. - Joseph Eisenberg As far as I can understand, Tomek is making two points, one about the use of the `name` tag for objects where the English language hardly applies (seas surrounded by language areas which do not include English, or only marginally so), and one about the communication language in this list. This second point has attracted most attention, and has made it hard to keep a constructive discussion about the first. 2: my writing back in French, and hints to Tomek to do the same, or to choose German, was a way to shush away the language fight, and keep the discussion going. I finally switched to Italian in despair, because I wanted Tomek to feel like I feel looking at his two hardly intelligible niche languages, none of them listed in https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_languages_by_total_number_of_speakers, nor appearing in the 1997 George Weber’s list of 10 most influential languages. 3: I think there's a third point related to internationalization, not at this surface language level, but deeper, when presenting concepts behind concrete tags in a way that would be more recognizable by non-European mappers. (I include into "European" everybody with roots in Europe.) I think this is a relevant point, not least because I keep seeing edits in Panama changing `unclassified` to `track` only because (this is my interpretation): the road is unpaved, people prefer looking at pictures than reading, the picture for the agricultural `track` looks much more recognizable than the one for the `unclassified` road, possibly and marginally because `unclassified` does not ring any bell outside the UK. 1: at some point in the discussion, I myself suggested adding a `label:=` tag, so that larger water masses would have several names, each positioned near the corresponding language area. 1: also someone (sorry for not looking it up) mentioned "the" map having become "the map" not intentionally, but as if by chance or misunderstanding. OSM is a database, and when looking at openstreetmap.org you see a possible rendering, in the default language. look at openstreetmap.fr and it will be in French, or openstreetmap.de/karte.html for German. 1: actually, please think about the three above examples (.org, .fr, .de), and you might see that indeed the `name` tag is out of place, since "the map" does not exist outside of the example running on openstreetmap.org. But, Tomek, I would start by making the point there, and suggest their renderer to be fixed, and to be heard you need to write in English, since you would be speaking to British people. Tomek, you have a point in what you write, but please have yourself heard, and not just experienced as nasty and conflictive. People, let's try not to focus on point '2' alone. and again Tomek, please help us here, do choose a "top 3" language in your communications. https://web.archive.org/web/20110927062910/http://www2.ignatius.edu/faculty/turner/languages.htm ciao, MF ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
> it *is* worth discussing if (or why) the "name" tag on a body of water bordered by a number of countries neither of which has English as an official language, should contain the English name. I agree. Unfortunately the message has been confused by the poor presentation. It is quite reasonable to question the use of English in the `name=` tag for the Baltic Sea. It would be reasonable to stop using the name= tag for oceans, continents and international seas, if we can develop a tag which would specify which of the `name:=` tags should be treated as the primary ones. This would make it more feasible to design a rendering for the Baltic Sea, the Mediterranean, and other seas surrounding by a large number of language areas. For the oceans and continents there may not be much use in a name tag, since these labels only make sense on a global map. A map designer or user can pick the language in that case. - Joseph Eisenberg On 2/24/20, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > > > sent from a phone > >> On 24. Feb 2020, at 11:44, Frederik Ramm wrote: >> >> We're not there yet though; we're kind of shouting down Tomek because >> he's aggressively questioning the status quo, but we haven yet managed >> to come up with a rule that would fortify the status quo. > > > > there has been mention of utility. From statistical research it would seem > that English is the language which has most people able to understand it > (shortly before Chinese, but with significantly more usage as a second > language). From a practical point of view, there are good arguments to fall > back to English. This could change in the future, but it would be a long > way. > Despite the global statistics, it could well be that regionally, other > languages would be more useful or “natural” than English, even if that > language isn’t the mother tongue of the majority of residents in the > neighboring countries (e.g. Spanish, Arabic, Portuguese, Mandarin, Russian > ...) > > Cheers Martin > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
sent from a phone > On 24. Feb 2020, at 11:44, Frederik Ramm wrote: > > We're not there yet though; we're kind of shouting down Tomek because > he's aggressively questioning the status quo, but we haven yet managed > to come up with a rule that would fortify the status quo. there has been mention of utility. From statistical research it would seem that English is the language which has most people able to understand it (shortly before Chinese, but with significantly more usage as a second language). From a practical point of view, there are good arguments to fall back to English. This could change in the future, but it would be a long way. Despite the global statistics, it could well be that regionally, other languages would be more useful or “natural” than English, even if that language isn’t the mother tongue of the majority of residents in the neighboring countries (e.g. Spanish, Arabic, Portuguese, Mandarin, Russian ...) Cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
Hi, On 23.02.20 23:38, Alan Mackie wrote: > This conversation is petty, repetitive and tedious in the extreme It is tediuos but not without merit. Yes the project was founded by white Englishmen but in other departments we're trying to extend our reach and make sure that we are also interesting for non-white non-English non-men. It is not, in principle, wrong to question some of our existing assumptions, values, or decisions. I think that while in this particular case the question was asked by someone on a mission to propagate an aspirational "international language", it *is* worth discussing if (or why) the "name" tag on a body of water bordered by a number of countries neither of which has English as an official language, should contain the English name. We're currently using English in such situations "by default"; none of our existing written policies can explain why we do that. If the result of this discussion is an agreement in the community that using the English name in the "name" tag whenever a feature is bordered by two or more countries using different languages (or whatever) is "the rigth thing to do in OSM", then the discussion will have been valuable. We're not there yet though; we're kind of shouting down Tomek because he's aggressively questioning the status quo, but we haven yet managed to come up with a rule that would fortify the status quo. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] [Tagging] nomoj de internaciaj objektoj / nazwy obiektów międzynarodowych / names of international objects
On 2020-02-23 23:38, Alan Mackie wrote: This conversation is petty, repetitive and tedious in the extreme, but as that seems to be the order of the day: I can not agree more with this message. I am not even trying to read the Polish and Esperanto mails. Yes, I am to lazy to put them in a translator because I think it is absolutely unnecessary. I am also not posting in Dutch because that will pose the same burden on others and I don't think that is the best action to do. I'm sorry if you feel excluded because you can not or refuse read english or think you are being oppressed. I feel excluded in every project that is done in Chinese and Japanese. But if they feel that is the best language to communicate in, than it is not for me. The OSM wiki has been translated to many many languages but the main page in Esperanto is short at best and many pages have no Esperanto translation. Maybe your efforts are better directed to creating some international (for you meaning: non-English) traction there. Regards, Maarten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
