Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Florian Lohoff]

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 01:21:59AM +0200, Niels Elgaard Larsen wrote:
> Paul Johnson:
> > Great.  How's this affect those of us who trust Facebook about as far as we 
> > can throw it?
> 
> 
> Use openstreetcam

Openstreetcam is pretty much "disfunct" from my perspective. There are
tons of bugs people opened because of their tracks not beeing
processing. Same for me. Twitter feed dead for a year. It looks pretty
much abandoned since end of 2019 - Since early June serious problems
processing tracks and uploads.

And for the me focus on Car driveable streets makes it useless.

Flo
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Nick Whitelegg]

(Disclaimer: I am the developer of said project)

Those of you looking for 100% FOSS software and who are focused on 360 degree 
photography of off-road routes (walking trails and so on) might want to 
consider OpenTrailView (https://opentrailview.org). Do bear in mind that it is 
in the early stages of development, so don't expect Mapillary-style UX just 
yet, and there is only a small amount of imagery (largely southern England at 
the moment plus a few around Heidelberg for probably obvious reasons) but it is 
in active development and I do have a possible collaboration with another 
project (more on that later).

OpenTrailVIew also uses underlying OpenStreetMap data to auto-connect 
panoramas, using GeoJSON Path Finder 
(github.com/perliedman/geojson-path-finder), though, due to server capacity 
constraints, this only works at present in Europe and Turkey (though requests 
for other countries welcome, though note that if they are for large and/or 
highly-populated countries countries such as the USA, China or Brazil I would 
have to restrict it to a region).

You can login using your OSM account.

Nick

From: Florian Lohoff 
Sent: 19 June 2020 07:58
To: Niels Elgaard Larsen 
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 01:21:59AM +0200, Niels Elgaard Larsen wrote:
> Paul Johnson:
> > Great.  How's this affect those of us who trust Facebook about as far as we 
> > can throw it?
>
>
> Use openstreetcam

Openstreetcam is pretty much "disfunct" from my perspective. There are
tons of bugs people opened because of their tracks not beeing
processing. Same for me. Twitter feed dead for a year. It looks pretty
much abandoned since end of 2019 - Since early June serious problems
processing tracks and uploads.

And for the me focus on Car driveable streets makes it useless.

Flo
--
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
UTF-8 Test: The 🐈 ran after a 🐁, but the 🐁 ran away
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Martin Koppenhoefer]

sent from a phone

> On 19. Jun 2020, at 13:51, Nick Whitelegg  wrote:
> 
> Those of you looking for 100% FOSS software and who are focused on 360 degree 
> photography of off-road routes (walking trails and so on) might want to 
> consider OpenTrailView (https://opentrailview.org).


has it a general scope, or is it only suitable for pictures “off road” as its 
name suggests?

Cheers Martin 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Mateusz Konieczny via talk]

Jun 19, 2020, 08:58 by f...@zz.de:

> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 01:21:59AM +0200, Niels Elgaard Larsen wrote:
>
>> Paul Johnson:
>> > Great.  How's this affect those of us who trust Facebook about as far as 
>> > we can throw it?
>>
>>
>> Use openstreetcam
>>
>
> Openstreetcam is pretty much "disfunct" from my perspective. There are
> tons of bugs people opened because of their tracks not beeing
> processing. Same for me. Twitter feed dead for a year. It looks pretty
> much abandoned since end of 2019 - Since early June serious problems
> processing tracks and uploads.
>
Can you link some of this bugs?

I found https://github.com/openstreetcam but I see nothing about blocked 
processing.

https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetCam is not describing is as 
dying, what 
should be changed if it is becoming defunct
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[James]

Might want to refine your searching skills:

https://github.com/openstreetcam/openstreetcam.org/issues/254

On Fri., Jun. 19, 2020, 9:21 a.m. Mateusz Konieczny via talk, <
talk@openstreetmap.org> wrote:

>
>
>
> Jun 19, 2020, 08:58 by f...@zz.de:
>
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 01:21:59AM +0200, Niels Elgaard Larsen wrote:
>
> Paul Johnson:
> > Great.  How's this affect those of us who trust Facebook about as far as
> we can throw it?
>
>
> Use openstreetcam
>
>
> Openstreetcam is pretty much "disfunct" from my perspective. There are
> tons of bugs people opened because of their tracks not beeing
> processing. Same for me. Twitter feed dead for a year. It looks pretty
> much abandoned since end of 2019 - Since early June serious problems
> processing tracks and uploads.
>
> Can you link some of this bugs?
>
> I found https://github.com/openstreetcam but I see nothing about blocked
> processing.
>
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetCam is not describing is as
> dying, what
> should be changed if it is becoming defunct
> ___
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> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Nick Whitelegg]

Hello Martin,

In theory, it could work in urban areas as well as off-road. There's nothing 
technically preventing it doing so, it's just that up to now I have chosen to 
focus on off-road.

However if there's a real interest an alternate fully-FOSS StreetView like 
application as an alternative to Mapillary and others, then I'm quite happy to 
take street panoramas.

Nick



From: Martin Koppenhoefer 
Sent: 19 June 2020 12:56
To: Nick Whitelegg 
Cc: OSM Talk 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary



sent from a phone

> On 19. Jun 2020, at 13:51, Nick Whitelegg  wrote:
>
> Those of you looking for 100% FOSS software and who are focused on 360 degree 
> photography of off-road routes (walking trails and so on) might want to 
> consider OpenTrailView (https://opentrailview.org).


has it a general scope, or is it only suitable for pictures “off road” as its 
name suggests?

Cheers Martin
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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Simon Poole]

Am 19.06.2020 um 13:47 schrieb Nick Whitelegg:
>
> (Disclaimer: I am the developer of said project)

One of the key functionalities required for such a project to be useable
in countries with developed privacy regulation is the ability to
automatically pixelate relevant parts of the images with a high degree
of reliability. It took Mapillary literally years to get that nailed
down and bring it to the level of functionality it is at now.


Which is one of the reasons why, way back when Mapillary started, I was
sceptical about the sustainability because the part of the product the
detection is required don't have a real associated revenue stream
(except if you a google, or ... and can use it in one way or the other
to sell ads).


In any case doing that from scratch would be a real pain. I believe the
OSC stack is now actually all OSS which would be a far better starting
point -if- sustainable funding could be built around the whole thing.


Simon


PS: naturally the whole reason for OSC was a business dispute that is
now moot because Mapillary is opening up its images for commercial use too.


>
> Those of you looking for 100% FOSS software and who are focused on 360
> degree photography of off-road routes (walking trails and so on) might
> want to consider OpenTrailView (https://opentrailview.org). Do bear in
> mind that it is in the early stages of development, so don't expect
> Mapillary-style UX just yet, and there is only a small amount of
> imagery (largely southern England at the moment plus a few around
> Heidelberg for probably obvious reasons) but it is in active
> development and I do have a possible collaboration with another
> project (more on that later).
>
> OpenTrailVIew also uses underlying OpenStreetMap data to auto-connect
> panoramas, using GeoJSON Path Finder
> (github.com/perliedman/geojson-path-finder), though, due to server
> capacity constraints, this only works at present in Europe and Turkey
> (though requests for other countries welcome, though note that if they
> are for large and/or highly-populated countries countries such as the
> USA, China or Brazil I would have to restrict it to a region).
>
> You can login using your OSM account.
>
> Nick
> 
> *From:* Florian Lohoff 
> *Sent:* 19 June 2020 07:58
> *To:* Niels Elgaard Larsen 
> *Cc:* talk@openstreetmap.org 
> *Subject:* Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping
> company Mapillary
>  
> On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 01:21:59AM +0200, Niels Elgaard Larsen wrote:
> > Paul Johnson:
> > > Great.  How's this affect those of us who trust Facebook about as
> far as we can throw it?
> >
> >
> > Use openstreetcam
>
> Openstreetcam is pretty much "disfunct" from my perspective. There are
> tons of bugs people opened because of their tracks not beeing
> processing. Same for me. Twitter feed dead for a year. It looks pretty
> much abandoned since end of 2019 - Since early June serious problems
> processing tracks and uploads.
>
> And for the me focus on Car driveable streets makes it useless.
>
> Flo
> -- 
> Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
>     UTF-8 Test: The 🐈 ran after a 🐁, but the 🐁 ran away
>
> ___
> talk mailing list
> talk@openstreetmap.org
> https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk


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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Michael Reichert]

Hi,

Am 19/06/2020 um 16.06 schrieb Simon Poole:
> In any case doing that from scratch would be a real pain. I believe the
> OSC stack is now actually all OSS which would be a far better starting
> point -if- sustainable funding could be built around the whole thing.

I looked at the GitHub repositories of OpenStreetCam about two weeks ago
because I remembered that someone having claimed a couple of years ago
OSC to be open source with some minor exceptions.

https://github.com/openstreetcam

I found the source code of the Android and iOS app and the website but
no code for a backend on a server. A deeper look into the repository of
the Android app points out that the publice source code lags behind the
release in Google Play and some of its dependencies make it unsuitable
for F-Droid [1].
https://github.com/openstreetcam/android/issues/153
https://github.com/openstreetcam/android/issues/113
https://github.com/openstreetcam/android/issues/149

Best regards

Michael


[1] I consider the people running F-Droid to be as picky w.r.t. building
things from source as people at Debian are. 



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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Nick Whitelegg]

>One of the key functionalities required for such a project to be useable in 
>countries with developed privacy regulation is the >ability to automatically 
>pixelate relevant parts of the images with a high degree of reliability. It 
>took Mapillary literally years >to get that nailed down and bring it to the 
>level of functionality it is at now.


>Which is one of the reasons why, way back when Mapillary started, I was 
>sceptical about the sustainability because the >part of the product the 
>detection is required don't have a real associated revenue stream (except if 
>you a google, or ... and >can use it in one way or the other to sell ads).


>In any case doing that from scratch would be a real pain. I believe the OSC 
>stack is now actually all OSS which would be a >far better starting point -if- 
>sustainable funding could be built around the whole thing.

I've looked at the OSC github repo from time to time. Bit hard to see exactly 
what's happening but I understand it's now owned by someone other than Telenav, 
It _looks_ like the latest commit is client-side only. Strugging to find any 
server-side code there.

However, if you go back to commit 1, there appears to be a fully open-source 
application with a PHP back end, though I haven't analysed the code in any 
detail - I can just see it's got database interaction in there.

OSC I think only allows you to navigate along an uploaded set of photos, or at 
least it did last time I looked.

Maybe the way forward (particularly given both projects are PHP-based) would be 
to merge some of the stuff I've been working on in OpenTrailView with the first 
commit of OSC. The main question that needs to be asked for now I think is: is 
there sufficient interest in developing a fully open-source StreetView-like 
application within the OSM community, and elsewhere, to make such a project 
worthwhile?

In terms of the critical privacy issues, there are some interesting projects on 
GitHub regarding number plate and face blurring, for example
https://github.com/understand-ai/anonymizer

No idea how good it actually is, but I have a number of panoramas with both 
faces and number plates so I have material to test it with.

Maybe OSC have done some stuff here, haven't looked I have to admit.


Nick










From: Simon Poole 
Sent: 19 June 2020 15:06
To: talk@openstreetmap.org 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary



Am 19.06.2020 um 13:47 schrieb Nick Whitelegg:

(Disclaimer: I am the developer of said project)

One of the key functionalities required for such a project to be useable in 
countries with developed privacy regulation is the ability to automatically 
pixelate relevant parts of the images with a high degree of reliability. It 
took Mapillary literally years to get that nailed down and bring it to the 
level of functionality it is at now.


Which is one of the reasons why, way back when Mapillary started, I was 
sceptical about the sustainability because the part of the product the 
detection is required don't have a real associated revenue stream (except if 
you a google, or ... and can use it in one way or the other to sell ads).


In any case doing that from scratch would be a real pain. I believe the OSC 
stack is now actually all OSS which would be a far better starting point -if- 
sustainable funding could be built around the whole thing.


Simon


PS: naturally the whole reason for OSC was a business dispute that is now moot 
because Mapillary is opening up its images for commercial use too.


Those of you looking for 100% FOSS software and who are focused on 360 degree 
photography of off-road routes (walking trails and so on) might want to 
consider OpenTrailView (https://opentrailview.org). Do bear in mind that it is 
in the early stages of development, so don't expect Mapillary-style UX just 
yet, and there is only a small amount of imagery (largely southern England at 
the moment plus a few around Heidelberg for probably obvious reasons) but it is 
in active development and I do have a possible collaboration with another 
project (more on that later).

OpenTrailVIew also uses underlying OpenStreetMap data to auto-connect 
panoramas, using GeoJSON Path Finder 
(github.com/perliedman/geojson-path-finder), though, due to server capacity 
constraints, this only works at present in Europe and Turkey (though requests 
for other countries welcome, though note that if they are for large and/or 
highly-populated countries countries such as the USA, China or Brazil I would 
have to restrict it to a region).

You can login using your OSM account.

Nick

From: Florian Lohoff 
Sent: 19 June 2020 07:58
To: Niels Elgaard Larsen 
Cc: talk@openstreetmap.org 

Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

On F

Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Florian Lohoff]

Hola,

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 03:17:31PM +0200, Mateusz Konieczny via talk wrote:
> > Openstreetcam is pretty much "disfunct" from my perspective. There are
> > tons of bugs people opened because of their tracks not beeing
> > processing. Same for me. Twitter feed dead for a year. It looks pretty
> > much abandoned since end of 2019 - Since early June serious problems
> > processing tracks and uploads.
> >
> Can you link some of this bugs?
> 
> I found https://github.com/openstreetcam but I see nothing about blocked 
> processing.
> 
> https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/OpenStreetCam is not describing is as 
> dying, what 
> should be changed if it is becoming defunct

- I have uploads hanging in processing since end of May, also some uploads
  which are finished are still showing upload.
- Since early June there is no reverse geocoding
- No page lists contact informations
- Twitter account dead for 12+ Month
- Pretty much "nothing" happening in the git repos since end of last year

So bugs, operational down or broken and noone to really talk to.

After i opened a bug put in my tracks not beeing processed there
were voices says that never anything comes back into the bug reports
but some bugs disappear magically.

Comparing that to other projects i am contributing this is
dysfunctional.

I dont know what happened behind the scenes but it feels as when
Telenav lost interest and grab "took over" with pretty much nothin
in their hands.

Flo
-- 
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UTF-8 Test: The 🐈 ran after a 🐁, but the 🐁 ran away


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Re: [OSM-talk] Facebook acquires crowdsourced mapping company Mapillary

[Florian Lohoff]

Hi Nick,

On Fri, Jun 19, 2020 at 11:47:01AM +, Nick Whitelegg wrote:
> 
> (Disclaimer: I am the developer of said project)
> 
> You can login using your OSM account.

The issue is that once you start pushing stuff into any projects your
storage expenses will kill you pretty fast.

https://www.backblaze.com/b2/cloud-storage-pricing.html

Thats 0.005$ per GB and Month. Thats *12 *1024 for a Terrabyte. Thats
something like 60$ per Year per Terrabyte which sounds reasonable
concerning disk costs. Costs per disk per lifetime and infrastructure to 
connect it to the IP Network.

Since late May i have produced:

flo@p4:/scratch/local/mapillary$ du -sh .
285G.
flo@p4:/scratch/local/mapillary$ find . -type f -iname "*.jpg" | wc -l
97407

So just pushing worth like 2 Weeks of taking street imagery will cost the
Hoster about 20$ per year from now on. And i have pushed multiple terrabytes 
to Mapillary since 2014.

And thats just me. Put that to a global OSM perspective and you need
serious funding for storing all that imagery, let alone the CPU cycles
for your compute vision to blur faces and number plates.

And as i have done something like OpenStreetcam 10 years ago for my personal
imagery without the fancy blurring stuff. And i have worked for Hosting 
companys so i know the deal.

This is why I think personally that the Facebook deal is the only
viable option for getting long term funding for storage. Somebody
has to pay for it. And i dont see a real businesscase which will pay
up for all the random Dashboards people store into your Dataset.

So either Facebook supports this service or we are toast.

The only option would then be OSMF funding but you may have a glimpse
at the Mapillary numbers and prepare some fundraising.

Flo
-- 
Florian Lohoff f...@zz.de
UTF-8 Test The 🐈 ran after a 🐁, but the 🐁 ran away


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