Re: [OSM-talk] Crowdfunding for OpenStreetMap in Bénin : 275km² high resolution satellite imagery for Cotonou

[Rod Bera]

Hi John,

You seem not to imagine for a second people in the South can take
initiatives and do things by themselves, without resorting to a charity
from the North.

We agree charities can be effective (e.g. when there is a quake or
typhoon) by making possible a quick release of imagery.
Then only the real mapping work begins, by a reliable task force of OSM
mappers, maybe with HOT to organise things a bit.
However, such dramatic events happen in and around Cotonou too (esp.
floods), but seemingly not with enough casualties to hit the headlines.
Or to get proper imagery.

Besides, people in Cotonou and other areas of Benin have been waiting
for a while for decent maps, and OSM Bénin has worked a lot in an
adverse context (power and network outages, sometimes GPS, often field
papers with no workable base map, etc.)

As long as they were mapping in dire conditions, they seemed to attract
no attention from those imagery providers.

Now their initiative is having some success, imagery providers pop in.
Fair enough, and welcome, there are many more areas with no decent
imagery. And OSM Benin are keen to issue a list of other
imagery-deprived areas in Benin... and elsewhere.

You seem to argue resorting to charities and well established imagery
providers is better than doing thing oneself.
With such views OSM would simply not exist, we would still be relying on
mapping agencies, and there would have been no worldwide open alternative.

This argumentation "why would you do things by yourselves? we can give
you better" is a bit patronising and at the opposite of the OSM spirit.
Again, with such an ethos there would be no OSM project (back in 2004
and for several years after "well, mapping agencies are doing tremendous
work, after all, why sould we work on an alternative?" was a common answer)

This argumentation reminds me of the recent "go and buy yourselves
petrol for your bikes instead, and leave us the imagery stuff" (Mikel, I
know it's not an exact quotation, and that by the way you didn't want to
be insulting, but try and imagine how the fellow mappers in Benin can
take this).

Of course we are happy to see people "do better", but we are proud to
have communities who can cope without having to flatter those dominant
organisations, which by the way are useful as long as they don't want to
impose their views and practices in an exclusive way.

And more importantly there is room for everyone in OSM.

On cost effectiveness, granted (if you live in a country where tax
rebates of the kind apply, and if the charity you whish to donate to is
properly registered by the gov. of the country you live in... Common in
N. America and Europe, but don't assume this is the case everywhere).

However this $45 difference you're claiming is the cost of independence.
Yes, there are people who value independence this much.
There are people who feel better off if they don't have this impression
they owe something to an organisation (and a country, per their tax
incentive).

OSM can and does accommodate various practices, and this is fine. Let's
respect this diversity. Let's respect local OSM communities and chapters.

And let's not replay in OSM what many of us had to endure (and still
endure) for years in HOT.

Regards,

Rod

PS: Below the answer to Mikel's comment on Ulule. As his offer was
broadcasted on twitter and elsewhere my answer (on behalf of OSM Benin)
I think this should be too.






Hi Mikel, and thank you for your offer.

however, rearding your suggestions to use the funds differently:
- OSM Benin (like OSM Mali, OSM Senegal, OSM Togo, OSM Burkina Faso, OSM
Niger...) has already been organising mapping parties for a while
without having to turn to crowd-funding.
And OSM Benin, together with other West-African OSM communities intend
to carry on this way as much as possible.
- Donors so far have contributed for us to get imagery, not fuel. They'd
probably not understand such a change.

Now if Mapbox can update imagery this easily there are so many other
areas which need proper imagery in Benin alone.
Maybe Mapbox and you can better help by providing high resolution open
imagery for other areas such as
- Grand-Popo, West and South,
- Houéyogbé,
- Athiémé-Lokossa, East,
- Dogbo, SE,
- Toucountouna,
- Allada,
- Tori-Bossito,
- Zogbodomey, W,
- Za-Kpota,
- Paougnan,
- Dassa-Zoumè,
- Djabata,
- Ketou, E,
- Pobè,
- Adja-Ouèrè,
- Sakété, E,
- Bamounin, S,
- Tobré, NE,
- Kérou, E,
- Nassoukou,
- Nioro, E...
For a better account of imagery-deprived areas, You may have a look at
Bing maps, and play a bit with zoom levels. Of course if this helps we
can work on providing you with a corresponding geojson file.

Please let us know if you'd like to contribute this way,

Rod on behalf of OSM Bénin




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Re: [OSM-talk] Crowdfunding for OpenStreetMap in Bénin : 275km² high resolution satellite imagery for Cotonou

[Rod Bera]

On 26/04/16 22:56, Mikel Maron wrote:
> Hey I don't know really understand the discussion about charity, or what
> this has to do with all this sensitivity about the autonomy of a local
> community.

Are you into diy? you can buy your stair, direct from a store, and have
it mounted by a specialist. Or you can do it yourself from scratch and
assemble it on your own. Some prefer option 1, and some feel
experiencing option 2 is worth trying. There is a pride in doing things
yourself.
I believe it is partly for this reasont that people at OSM Benin are
willing to go for option 2. Maybe for subsequent stairs they'll chose
option 1.

 I see a fundraiser for imagery, for purchase from a big
> satellite imagery provider. OSM Benin is doing amazing work, but it's
> not like they're trying to launch a satellite itself!

considering the environment in which they evolve, maybe it is after all.

> This imagery can
> be gotten as a donation -- just like you're asking for donations now.
>  And those crowdfunding campaign donors, well I bet they're willing to
> trust a local communities decisions, as long as the community and OSM
> are strengthened.

So what's your price for 275 sq km ? If the campaign runs only until May
1st it probably mean they need it very soon. Who knows how much time
this will take to move to a Mapbox solution?
Maybe it will be workable for subsequent AOIs, but for this one, doubt
is permitted.

> Suggesting this is not an insult -- absolutely none
> intended. 

Obviously, but the way it is phrased... This is probably another
instance of the caution we must take when crossing language and cultural
barriers or subtleties. Not integrating them enough in HOT was an
amplifying factor in some painful episodes. Let's learn from this
experience and avoid replicating it in wider OSM.

> Seems silly to not spend the money more productively, but
> that's my view and not my decision.

Let's agree that this project puts the lights on the needs of OSM Benin.
And that with this initiative providers like Mapbox, IGN France int'l or
Digital Globe become aware of their needs and offer to help.
It's now up to parties to start express needs and offers.

Now, with the current crowd-funding project we're just talking about a
limited area. Imagery providers can help for many other.

You say money can be used more productively and I agree: many satellites
are built and sent onto orbit with a significant proportion of
tax-payer's money, so more imagery should be free.

This said you did not give details on how beneficial to OSM Benin it
would be to change their mind on this project.
And once again the short dead-line also seems to be an element to consider.



> 
> There are many imagery providers and services that have been willing to
> help with imagery for active projects -- this is nothing new in OSM.
> Just look at the Ecuador response to see the latest manifestation of
> that willingness. There are lots of great mapping efforts in West Africa
> and around the world, and we all know there are many gaps in imagery. If
> OSM Benin had asked for help with imagery before starting this
> fundraiser, you bet I would have helped; this is not about a bandwagon
> as you strangely suggest Rod. We need to prioritize needs, and seeing
> the community activity and organization in Cotonou is key to the thought
> -- this is a place that can really use imagery. In other words, both a
> gap in imagery coverage and an active use are ingredients to consider.

We agree on this too. It is a matter of priority, but global priorities
are not always local ones.

> 
> So if OSM Benin can organize AOI for imagery needs, and demonstrate
> activity on the ground in those place, I don't see why other requests
> wouldn't be considered. 

This is much welcome and people from OSM Benin have expressed this already.
> I would love to talk directly with the OSM Benin
> team to understand the need, and there are many people who are happy to
> help cross language barriers to help with translation, and convey things
> in the best way possible.

yep.


Rod

PS:
btw you or Mapbox still can donate on this specific project. Less than
€400 to secure OSM Benin 275 sq km of Pleiades imagery, doesn't this
sounds like a good deal? ;-)


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Re: [OSM-talk] Crowdfunding for OpenStreetMap in Bénin : 275km² high resolution satellite imagery for Cotonou

[Rod Bera]

Hi Martin,

I said South, not Southern Hemisphere.
More, I said it as a way to make a distinction between "overdeveloped"
countries and countries which deserve a proper development effort,
following in this a common use in hum/dev.

Regards,

Rod


On 27/04/16 00:37, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> 
> 
> sent from a phone
> 
>> Il giorno 26 apr 2016, alle ore 22:16, Rod Bera  ha scritto:
>>
>> You seem not to imagine for a second people in the South can take
>> initiatives and do things by themselves, without resorting to a charity
>> from the North.
> 
> 
> on a side note, and not to dissent with your argument in general, Cotonou is 
> still on the northern hemisphere ;-)
> 
> cheers,
> Martin 
> 



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Re: [OSM-talk] prostitutes in OSM

[Rod Bera]

This is HOT OSM ;)

On 07/06/16 12:08, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote:
> On the Italian ML this account was mentioned sending out spam, please 
> suspend: http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Anvimurthy
> 
> 
> cheers,
> Martin 
> 
> sent from a phone
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   et SIG pour l'Environnement  /and Environmental GIS
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Re: [OSM-talk] introducing localities in wikipedia

[Rod Bera]

Hi,

what did you put into your wikipedia page?

If they were nearly empty maybe the moderator decided they had no
pertinence (hence deletion). Which is odd anyway.

Maybe you should put more contents and/or get in touch with the moderators.

Please keep me informed of your findings on the issue.
Indeed I believe there is a strong interest in link OSM data to
wikidata... and link wikidata to wikipedia and other resources.

Regards,

Rod


On 14/11/16 15:11, RB wrote:
> I just discovered the wikidata project and felt like contributing and
> adding wikidata tags to OSM objects. However, as I discovered that
> localities (such as Javerne
> ) aren't mostly covered by
> wikipedia articles, I created a few. This led to all the 3 localities
> pages I had created being deleted by the wikipedia moderators.
> 
> Is it like an official policy and if yes is it still worth to link
> localities to orphan wikidata objects?
> 
> 
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Rod Bera]

Hi all,

Thank you Toby for you vigilance.
I do share Clifford's concern about OSM being tweaked/vandalised.

Systematic bias put into the OSM base towards maximising benefits for a
minority of users is a threat.
Especially when the primary interest of these users is not OSM in itself.

Also, to the best of my knowledge, the company behind Pokemon is only
acknowledging Google maps as a source. Not OSM. Therefore those new
users should be redirected to Google mapmaker and left to deal with
subsequent legal issues with that company (the "your data is ours but
trouble is yours" disclaimer by Google).

However, this leaves unaddressed another issue, that of OSM data being
uploaded/copied into google maps. I have myself noticed in several
instances that google maps updated following my own edits into OSM,
especially for features that only myself could be aware of.

So I don't know which process holds here:
1. pokemon directly using (and not acknowledging) OSM data,
or
2. pokemon using google data with google themselves using OSM data (and
not acknowledging it, whether it comes from google paid people or people
"freely" contributing the google base).

Up to now, leaving aside the legal breach of either ODbL or cc-by-sa
licenses (or both), it could nevertheless be satisfying for us to
believe we were contributing to improve other databases as a side effect
(OSM people working for the benefit of all, even google. Even though
google has not the correctness to abide by licensing). And believe
(which I do myself) that ours is better. But now what makes the strength
of OSM could be used to destroy it.

The phenomenon is not new however: we have seen "biased" edits into OSM
in the past, with some OSM users modifying or deleting other
contributions for personal reasons (political, religious, etc., or mere
competition over stats), and putting their questionable ones instead.
This can always happen, but the procedures and general ethos within our
community can usually deal with this smoothly.

Now we're potentially facing a problem of a completely different
magnitude. One tweet among pokemon-Goers saying -no matter true or not-
that they can capture more creatures by tweeking OSM, and we might end
up with myriads of local difficult-to-detect edits by many users (mostly
new, but we can't rule out "pokemonised" OSM users...).

For those who doubt it this is quite serious. Over time people have come
to rely onto OSM for a number of activities, amongst which navigation or
humanitarian activities (just to name a few I'm engaged in. Landuse
management and environmental science is another).

If our geographical commons are impacted this can translate into loss of
meaningful data, and beyond: waste of time and efficiency, waste of
money, even lives.

Yes, OSM has become as crucial as this for some people.

I believe this issue should be discussed at OSMF level.
We, as a community should investigate and take action to safeguard our
common good.

Maybe I'm worrying too much, that Pokemon-Goers won't in their vast
majority sign up and overwhelm OSM with "inaccurate" data.

But there is a risk.
I've long been aware of it but was confident our community could
overcome. Now I'm not too sure anymore.

Rod

On 25/12/16 18:46, Clifford Snow wrote:
> I've been seeing a number of new users adding paths and parks. I deleted
> three "parks" in Tacoma Washington just this morning. One was covering a
> residential area, another was a group of trees behind some houses and
> the third was a vacant lot. The area with the trees might have been an
> attempt to add a landcover feature. But they were all done by the same
> user. None of the changeset comments mentioned pokemon. 
> 
> One user did reply to my welcome message. I had asked him if he was
> mapping as part of a school project. He replied "No, a game I play uses
> path information to generate its data, so I'm uploading my common walk
> paths, getting familiar with OSM and its toolset. Me adding those paths
> is just filling in gaps in that data that others may find useful. Thank
> you for the welcome email! Happy holidays!" His edits were good for a
> new user.
> 
> Since Dec 17th over 20 new people have started mapping in Washington
> State. A good number of them have been adding footways and paths.
> Unfortunately I haven't been keeping records on how many corrections
> I've had to make. 
> 
> There is some good coming from Pokemon, however I worry about the
> increase in vandalism. 
> 
> 
> 
> On Sun, Dec 25, 2016 at 9:17 AM, Toby Murray  > wrote:
> 
> There was a video uploaded to YouTube a couple of days ago that
> claims to show some possible evidence that Pokemon Go uses data from
> OSM to determine good spawn locations for Pokemon. There are also
> several threads on reddit under /r/TheSilphRoad that have similar
> claims. It is amusing to see their speculation and methods of
> testing their "evidence" which include adding a foot

[OSM-talk] Fwd: Re: Beware Pokemon users

[Rod Bera]

 Forwarded Message 
Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users
Date: Tue, 27 Dec 2016 00:40:18 +0100
From: Rod Bera 
To: Andy Mabbett 

Hi Andy,

I get what you mean,

and I acknowledge that though I consider OSM should be put first this is
not the case for everyone, and this is fine.

But here things are going one step further: it's about deliberately
putting non-existing features and/or mis-tagging features, which amounts
to vandalism.
A new kind of vandalism, as we could be overwhelmed by the number of
"users" doing it in various places for a coinciding purpose.
To me this is quite new.

I hope this won't happen.

And I won't comment your appreciation over "geographical practices".
Every one is welcome to practice geography their own way...
As long as we are talking about geography, i.e. depicting what is
(really is, not what Pokemon hunter wish were) on or around the surface
of Earth.

Regards,

Rod

On 26/12/16 13:19, Andy Mabbett wrote:
> On 26 December 2016 at 11:36, Rod Bera  wrote:
> 
>> Systematic bias put into the OSM base towards maximising benefits for a
>> minority of users is a threat.
>> Especially when the primary interest of these users is not OSM in itself.
> 
> Most edits to OSM benefit only a minority of users
> 
> Most editors of OSM - including me - do so because we have a primary
> interest which is not OSM itself.
> 
> Shall those of us who edit OSM because we have an interest in a
> locality, or a use-case, all stop editing, and leave OSM only to those
> for whom it is some form of geographical masturbation?
> 


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Re: [OSM-talk] Beware Pokemon users

[Rod Bera]

Hi Andy,

just to make myself understood:

improving the db by adding relevant features and tags is a good thing
for everyone, even though those doing so (literally everyone) do it in
places they chose with tags they're interested in.
To me this is working for the community. This does not degrade the
overall quality and accuracy of the OSM base. Rather the opposite. This
is exactly what OSM is about. The fact that the improvement is local and
thematic is unavoidable.

But this is a different story if my edits don't conform to ground truth.
It also has a name when done on purpose: vandalism.

Users who deliberately put incorrect or fictional stuff into OSM are
working for their benefits (catching more Pokemons), and their edits are
detrimental to the community.

regards,

Rod

On 27/12/16 11:31, Andy Townsend wrote:
> Just to pick up one point from this...
> 
> 
> On 26/12/16 11:36, Rod Bera wrote:
>> Systematic bias put into the OSM base towards maximising benefits for a
>> minority of users is a threat.
>> Especially when the primary interest of these users is not OSM in itself.
> 
> Sounds like I'm bang to rights there!  Most of what I add to OSM
> (footpaths, trees, whether a local pub has a stone floor and a real fire
> etc.) could be exactly described as "maximising benefits for a minority
> of users".  Worse, the local OSMers all seem to be doing the same thing
> - shops, house numbers, a borderline obsession with tunnels, but
> everyone has different ideas of what to do, so that somehow a wide range
> of things are covered.
> 
> Cheers,
> 
> Andy
> 
> 
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetCam plugin

[Rod Bera]

Hi Martijn,

both version 31 and 42 fail to install.
JOSM version used is 11429. Running under debian jessie.

Regards,

Rod


On 24/01/17 18:26, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> Hi all, 
> 
> I wanted to ask your opinion about the OpenStreetCam JOSM plugin. If you 
> haven’t tried it, it’s in the JOSM plugin store.
> What are the top things you would want to see improved? What is working well? 
> Perhaps you have a desire to help out with development? We are planning 
> further development priorities and your input is important for that.
> 
> Martijn
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Re: [OSM-talk] OpenStreetCam plugin

[Rod Bera]

Hi Martijn,

When trying to install the plugin I get a message saying
that downloading failed, with
"
error message javax.net.ssl.SSLHandshakeException

java.security.cert.CertificateException :
no suject alternative DNS name matching www.developper.skobbler.com found
"

and I am asked to restart to have some change effected...

When I restart I get the message:

"
could not load plugin
because main class
org.openstreetmap.josm.plugins.openstreetcam.OpenStreetCamPlugin was not
found
"

Seems it's nothing to do with the plugin itself, but more likely with
the way it is made available.


On a different note: an overall improvement to josm would be to make the
content of message pop-up windows copy-paste-able. This would save time.

Rod

On 30/01/17 10:02, Martijn van Exel wrote:
> Rod — what if any messages do you get, or how does it fail? I don’t
> think we are at version 42 yet — OpenStreetCam plugin release is version
> 32, the deprecated OpenStreetView plugin is version 31.
> 
> Anyone else experiencing problems with installing it?
> 
> Martijn van Exel
> 
>> On Jan 27, 2017, at 12:21 PM, Rod Bera > <mailto:r...@goarem.org>> wrote:
>>
>> Hi Martijn,
>>
>> both version 31 and 42 fail to install.
>> JOSM version used is 11429. Running under debian jessie.
>>
>> Regards,
>>
>> Rod
>>
>>
>> On 24/01/17 18:26, Martijn van Exel wrote:
>>> Hi all,
>>>
>>> I wanted to ask your opinion about the OpenStreetCam JOSM plugin. If
>>> you haven’t tried it, it’s in the JOSM plugin store.
>>> What are the top things you would want to see improved? What is
>>> working well? Perhaps you have a desire to help out with development?
>>> We are planning further development priorities and your input is
>>> important for that.
>>>
>>> Martijn
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>>
>>
>>
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Re: [OSM-talk] Vandalism by donpedro1980

[Rod Bera]

Hi Paul,

based on the 3-4 changesets I've just reviewed from them, it doesn't
seem super-obvious to me (apart from the rather odd changeset comment:
"Many kids can be found playing here and walkers enjoy this area at all
times") that they are vandalising.

They've been mapping for less than a week, maybe they just need some
guidance.

I don't know the area though, and don't know if Bing imagery there is up
to date (seems not, when considering your own edits (e.g.
http://www.openstreetmap.org/way/281607526 , 2 years ago)
so it's hard for me to say.
You seem to have local knowledge so you probably can tell better than
most of us.

In any case you're right to be vigilant.

Regards,

Rod

On 01/02/17 18:42, Paul Johnson wrote:
> Could we get a block to get this guy's attention?  He's adding things in
> the Tulsa area that have no basis in reality in an apparent attempt to
> game Pokemon Go, and unresponsive to changeset comments from myself and
> nammala
> 
> 
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