Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
"Jaakko Helleranta.com" wrote: > Hi John, > Would u like to share ur experience with BB mapping apps? Anything > worth noting/recommending? > the reason I'm asking is that BB is the de facto smartphone standard > in Haiti where I'm currently based. > Thnx, > -Jaakko > Osm.org/user/jaakkoh > > --Original Message-- > From: John F. Eldredge > To: Talk@OSM > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server > Sent: Nov 21, 2011 21:24 > > Richard Fairhurst wrote: > > > Ideally we would have dedicated smartphone mapping apps, for which > we > > would > > happily permit tile/API access. No, I'm not volunteering to write > one, > > but I > > have a suspicion we'll see at least one such app within the year. ;) > > > There are dozens of such dedicated smartphone mapping apps, for many > different smartphones, as you will find if you search the OSM wiki. > They have been around for years; I started using my first such app, on > a Blackberry, about three years ago. I have several dedicated > mapmaking apps on my current Android phone. > > I have to admit that I didn't explore very far into the range of mapping programs available on the BlackBerry Storm. I mostly used an app called BigTinCan mapper, which allowed you to set up a limited variety of POIs, record a raw GPS track for later upload, or copy the current GPS coordinates to the clipboard. I also downloaded and installed a more sophisticated program called TrackMyJourney, but never fully mastered it. I ended up doing most of my editing via Potlatch, on my laptop. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Ideally we would have dedicated smartphone mapping apps, for which we > would > happily permit tile/API access. No, I'm not volunteering to write one, > but I > have a suspicion we'll see at least one such app within the year. ;) There are dozens of such dedicated smartphone mapping apps, for many different smartphones, as you will find if you search the OSM wiki. They have been around for years; I started using my first such app, on a Blackberry, about three years ago. I have several dedicated mapmaking apps on my current Android phone. -- John F. Eldredge -- j...@jfeldredge.com "Reserve your right to think, for even to think wrongly is better than not to think at all." -- Hypatia of Alexandria ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
(Sorry, slip of the finger sent a blank email...) Regarding mobile mapping apps for Android, I'm a part-time developer of Vespucci. A few months back I did a lot of stability work and it now hardly ever crashes for me. I also improved the map tiles by adding support for many different layers (esp Bing). Major items missing are relation support and improved GPS logging. I'm too busy right now to work on them, but if nothing has happened in a few months when I should have some spare time, then those would be my priority. Nevertheless, I'm using Vespucci now to do bicycle surveying, adding new roads not on aerial photography, and collecting street names. I imagine it would be quite good for handling walking trails. Andrew On Nov 21, 2011 9:17 PM, "Richard Fairhurst" wrote: > Václav Řehák wrote: > > Any tile server provided by the app author will be way behind in > > the updates. I expect the Locus tile server to be updated once in > > a week or so making it unusable for my weekend mapping trips. > > I think this, sadly, falls under the category of "collateral damage". The > 1% > of users who rely on Locus et al for mapping purposes are rather hit by the > 99% who just use it to download maps, hammering our tile servers. > > Ideally we would have dedicated smartphone mapping apps, for which we would > happily permit tile/API access. No, I'm not volunteering to write one, but > I > have a suspicion we'll see at least one such app within the year. ;) > > cheers > Richard > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Blocked-applications-at-tile-server-tp7014873p7016306.html > Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
Andrew On Nov 21, 2011 9:17 PM, "Richard Fairhurst" wrote: > Václav Řehák wrote: > > Any tile server provided by the app author will be way behind in > > the updates. I expect the Locus tile server to be updated once in > > a week or so making it unusable for my weekend mapping trips. > > I think this, sadly, falls under the category of "collateral damage". The > 1% > of users who rely on Locus et al for mapping purposes are rather hit by the > 99% who just use it to download maps, hammering our tile servers. > > Ideally we would have dedicated smartphone mapping apps, for which we would > happily permit tile/API access. No, I'm not volunteering to write one, but > I > have a suspicion we'll see at least one such app within the year. ;) > > cheers > Richard > > > > -- > View this message in context: > http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Blocked-applications-at-tile-server-tp7014873p7016306.html > Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
On Mon, Nov 21, 2011 at 11:59 AM, Richard Fairhurst wrote: > Serge Wroclawski wrote: >> I encourage you and others to get involved in the Foundation (ie >> become members, get active on the lists, tell the board your feelings, >> vote) > > You missed out the most important one: > > "help" You're right; I thought I wrote that but I didn't. The single most important thing you could do is, if you feel strongly, learn to code and fix it yourself. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
Serge Wroclawski wrote: > I encourage you and others to get involved in the Foundation (ie > become members, get active on the lists, tell the board your feelings, > vote) You missed out the most important one: "help" cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Blocked-applications-at-tile-server-tp7014873p7017021.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
2011/11/21 Václav Řehák : >> I think, the problem is, that Locus MAY BE used in a bad way by bulk >> downloading. > > That's not true anymore. Downloading is disabled by Locus author in > the recent versions and online browsing is limited to a certain number > of tiles per day. > >> As long as it's used like a browser it would not be a problem and the lock >> could be removed (I'm pretty sure then that would not be a problem even for >> the admins). > > Sure, but then it would be nice to hear from the admins what rules > should the app follow to be unblocked. So far the Tile usage policy > says no apps are allowed without prior permission. This is a very contentious issue in OSM; I and others believe that OSMF needs to make its resource use more clear to outside providers. I encourage you and others to get involved in the Foundation (ie become members, get active on the lists, tell the board your feelings, vote) if you feel strongly. Right now the rules for usage are very muddy and are in large part just "As the administrators see fit"- which is in one sense reasonable, but sometimes hits innocent folks like yourself. > Maybe the way for future is writting an app that sends OSM credentials > to the server as Richard says (I don't know about such app). Or I can > add my custom providers.xml entry to Locus with some extra http header > (e.g. including my osm id) if the admins say so. But I have not heard > of such suggestions nor recommendation which app to use. The only info > I have is "do not use Locus and a few other popular apps". In my view, for users who are looking for simple navigation aids, a map that is old is usually not a problem. Most users won't notice the difference between one week and the other and for those people, the suggestions of using a commercial map provider, or having the author provide the map themselves is reasonable. I'd say even in situations where "up to the hour" maps are needed, such as in humanitarian situations, we have reasonable solutions. For real-time mapping though, the real answer is that the app should not be using tiles, but rather rendering the data locally. And then, we would benefit from apps which make updating vector areas easier. Matt Atmos and Kompaza have put work into what are essentially "data tiles", which would fit your usage needs fairly well. I spent some time on this myself, but haven't gone back. The limiting factor here is mostly developer time/effort. Right now, most mobile map app authors are entirely focused on displaying tiles. If they'd put some effort into getting data to/from their apps in more novel ways, I'm sure they'd be embraced by the OSM community. One last "OSMF ping/tweak". If this need continues to arise and mobile authors do not come up with a solution, then maybe it's time OSMF does. Kothic needs work, but I can imagine that a month or two of work by a high quality developer could result in a highly robust solution to this particular need, and therefore a robust solution to the issue of expensive map/ API calls and the issue of caching, which, if successful, could not only result in reduced need for tiles, but allow for better apps in general. - Serge ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
Václav Rehák gmail.com> writes: > > > Perhaps to download the very fresh OSM data as vectors? Something like >> the data > > layer we have in the standard OSM web map. > > Do you have real experience with this? In a way, yes. I am mostly playing with tradional GIS and our national data but the following link will send you all the osm_lines from a 10 km by 10 km bounding box. Data comes from the OSM Mapnik schema and all the tags attached to the lines are included. See elements like "ref"=>"3071", "name"=>"Ritvalanraitti", "highway"=>"tertiary", "surface"=>"paved", "z_order"=>"4" http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=wfs&version=1.0.0&request=GetFeature&typename=lv:osm_line&BBOX=346700,6780800,356700,6790800 You do not need to download the whole Czech data if you just want to check a couple of streets. Ten by ten kilometers in my example seems to be from an area that does not have many highways but it should give you an idea. This query will send all the osm_lines from the centre of Helsinki. http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=wfs&version=1.0.0&request=GetFeature&typename=lv:osm_line&BBOX=385000,6671000,386000,6672000 This hundred by hundred meter box should give almost immediate response. http://188.64.1.61/cgi-bin/tinyows?service=wfs&version=1.0.0&request=GetFeature&typename=lv:osm_line&BBOX=385000,6671000,385100,6671100 I am updating data only every now and then but the database could be updated with the "Minutely Mapnik" system and vectors would never be more than a couple of minutes old. XML is not so interesting to look at but this OpenLayers example shows just similar XML vector data on top of a raster map. Use the Delete Feature tool and you will believe that they are vectors and nothing that is burned into the raster image. http://openlayers.org/dev/examples/wfs-snap-split.html I do not want to advertise WFS over native OSM services, it just happens to be a service I know somethign about. My message is that there can be other, maybe more flexible ways for utilising OSM data than just those boring tiles. -Jukka Rahkonen- ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
On 21/11/2011 14:10, Václav Řehák wrote: That's not true anymore. Downloading is disabled by Locus author in the recent versions and online browsing is limited to a certain number of tiles per day. Possibly, but on the Locus web site (http://www.locusmap.eu/version-1-14-0) there's a big red notice saying "If you don’t want to have reduced downloading of Online maps, do not update!", so they aren't exactly encouraging people to stop overloading the servers. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
> I think, the problem is, that Locus MAY BE used in a bad way by bulk > downloading. That's not true anymore. Downloading is disabled by Locus author in the recent versions and online browsing is limited to a certain number of tiles per day. > As long as it's used like a browser it would not be a problem and the lock > could be removed (I'm pretty sure then that would not be a problem even for > the admins). Sure, but then it would be nice to hear from the admins what rules should the app follow to be unblocked. So far the Tile usage policy says no apps are allowed without prior permission. > But as it's not distinguishable currently how it's used, it's not possible > to do a finer blocking against "bad users" while not blocking "good users" > collaterally. Maybe the way for future is writting an app that sends OSM credentials to the server as Richard says (I don't know about such app). Or I can add my custom providers.xml entry to Locus with some extra http header (e.g. including my osm id) if the admins say so. But I have not heard of such suggestions nor recommendation which app to use. The only info I have is "do not use Locus and a few other popular apps". Vaclav ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
Hi. I think, the problem is, that Locus MAY BE used in a bad way by bulk downloading. As long as it's used like a browser it would not be a problem and the lock could be removed (I'm pretty sure then that would not be a problem even for the admins). But as it's not distinguishable currently how it's used, it's not possible to do a finer blocking against "bad users" while not blocking "good users" collaterally. regards Peter Am 21.11.2011 14:13, schrieb Václav Řehák: Perhaps to download the very fresh OSM data as vectors? Something like the data layer we have in the standard OSM web map. Do you have real experience with this? I didn't investigate it in details, but it seems to me that I need per country dump from geofabrik.de (~ 230 MB in pbf for Czech Republic), run some processing using osmosis plugin [1] and copy the resulting 270 MB map file to my phone. I can do this once in a while but it does not sound like convenient solution. And for sure it's not user friendly for potential new mappers. As I stated in my first e-mail, I understand why it is necessary to protect the servers from abusing. But why is access by (now well behaving) mobile app considered as abusing while acess by mobile browser is OK is really difficult to understand. And why is Locus blocked while other less popular apps providing the same functionality are allowed is also strange. Btw, thanks for updating the wiki page on Locus. It is now much more helpful by providing usage info on the vector maps though it does not solve my use case. [1] http://code.google.com/p/mapsforge/wiki/MapFileWriterOsmosis ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
Václav Řehák wrote: > Any tile server provided by the app author will be way behind in > the updates. I expect the Locus tile server to be updated once in > a week or so making it unusable for my weekend mapping trips. I think this, sadly, falls under the category of "collateral damage". The 1% of users who rely on Locus et al for mapping purposes are rather hit by the 99% who just use it to download maps, hammering our tile servers. Ideally we would have dedicated smartphone mapping apps, for which we would happily permit tile/API access. No, I'm not volunteering to write one, but I have a suspicion we'll see at least one such app within the year. ;) cheers Richard -- View this message in context: http://gis.638310.n2.nabble.com/Blocked-applications-at-tile-server-tp7014873p7016306.html Sent from the General Discussion mailing list archive at Nabble.com. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
> Perhaps to download the very fresh OSM data as vectors? Something like the > data > layer we have in the standard OSM web map. Do you have real experience with this? I didn't investigate it in details, but it seems to me that I need per country dump from geofabrik.de (~ 230 MB in pbf for Czech Republic), run some processing using osmosis plugin [1] and copy the resulting 270 MB map file to my phone. I can do this once in a while but it does not sound like convenient solution. And for sure it's not user friendly for potential new mappers. As I stated in my first e-mail, I understand why it is necessary to protect the servers from abusing. But why is access by (now well behaving) mobile app considered as abusing while acess by mobile browser is OK is really difficult to understand. And why is Locus blocked while other less popular apps providing the same functionality are allowed is also strange. Btw, thanks for updating the wiki page on Locus. It is now much more helpful by providing usage info on the vector maps though it does not solve my use case. [1] http://code.google.com/p/mapsforge/wiki/MapFileWriterOsmosis ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
Václav Řehák gmail.com> writes: > > > A fixed application would be one that does not use the OSM tile servers. The > > tile usage policy gives the example of distributing an app using tiles from > > tile.openstreetmap.org as an activity which is forbidden without prior > > permission from system administrators. > > Well, and what is your recommended way to do the mapping then? Perhaps to download the very fresh OSM data as vectors? Something like the data layer we have in the standard OSM web map. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
> A fixed application would be one that does not use the OSM tile servers. The > tile usage policy gives the example of distributing an app using tiles from > tile.openstreetmap.org as an activity which is forbidden without prior > permission from system administrators. Well, and what is your recommended way to do the mapping then? I go for a walk to a forest close to my city and choose one track/path to follow (usually based on a commercial map loaded in Locus). I see the track record as an overlay on either the commercial or OSM map so I immediatelly see both erros in the commercial map (quite common) and incorrectly mapped OSM tracks (suprisingly even more common in my area). When I return home I process the results of my survey in JOSM and upload it. The next day I go for another walk to the same area and based on the already updated OSM tiles (online browsing in Locus) I either verify I mapped everything correctly and/or follow another path taking different branches on crossroads etc. Any tile server provided by the app author will be way behind in the updates. I expect the Locus tile server to be updated once in a week or so making it unusable for my weekend mapping trips. Sure, I can use a webrowser as suggested by Mike N but 1) I cannot see my exact position and the track log there and 2) it's inconvenient enough to switch beetween Locus and camera app and if I add web browser to the mix it's gonna be even more time consuming. And the load on the tile server would be exactly the same as if I could use the tiles in Locus directly. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
> From: Václav Řehák [mailto:rehak...@gmail.com] > Subject: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server > > > Is there anything that can be done to unblock fixed applications? > And if there is no will to change the situation, can you recommend me > another Android app for displaying OSM tiles and track recording? A fixed application would be one that does not use the OSM tile servers. The tile usage policy gives the example of distributing an app using tiles from tile.openstreetmap.org as an activity which is forbidden without prior permission from system administrators. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
I asked the admins for the same reasons, but became no response. If they can provide me some new logs, I would do a visualisation again, to see if the apps traffic is still falling. bye Matthias Am 21.11.2011 00:25, schrieb Václav Řehák: Hello, (I don't know if this mailling list is the right one for the discussion, so please let me know if there is a more appropriate place to do so.) I would like to start a discussion on blocking several (mobile) applications on the tile server [1]. I understand the reasons why server administrators took this action and agree that it was necessary to prevent abusing the servers by a minority of the users. On the other hand, it should be noted, that most if not all application developers reacted in a desirable way and fixed their apps. Shouldn't we reconsider the blocking then? The reason I'm writting is because I am using one of blocked apps, Locus [2]. The author of Locus reacted by disabling download from OSM tile servers, reducing the limit on online browsing, adding vector maps support with some precompiled maps linked from his web and by starting the process to build his own tile server [3]. Isn't this enough to ublock the app? I use Locus for mapping because I don't know any other as powerful Android application. For normal map browsing I use offline tiles downloaded from my own tile server and sometimes the vector map (outdated copy though). But when I go for a mapping trip I need to see as recent data as possible on the highest zoom available to decide e.g. which of the tracks there is not yet mapped, whether a particular POI is already mapped, etc. You get my point... Is there anything that can be done to unblock fixed applications? And if there is no will to change the situation, can you recommend me another Android app for displaying OSM tiles and track recording? Thanks. Vaclav [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Blocked_applications [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Locus [3] http://forum.asamm.cz/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1166#p6870 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
On 11/20/2011 6:25 PM, Václav Řehák wrote: But when I go for a mapping trip I need to see as recent data as possible on the highest zoom available to decide e.g. which of the tracks there is not yet mapped, whether a particular POI is already mapped, etc. You get my point... While I don't have the best answer for your question, the latest version of the main OSM web site has recently upgraded OpenLayers, and works great on my mobile device to browse at Z18. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Blocked applications at tile server
Hello, (I don't know if this mailling list is the right one for the discussion, so please let me know if there is a more appropriate place to do so.) I would like to start a discussion on blocking several (mobile) applications on the tile server [1]. I understand the reasons why server administrators took this action and agree that it was necessary to prevent abusing the servers by a minority of the users. On the other hand, it should be noted, that most if not all application developers reacted in a desirable way and fixed their apps. Shouldn't we reconsider the blocking then? The reason I'm writting is because I am using one of blocked apps, Locus [2]. The author of Locus reacted by disabling download from OSM tile servers, reducing the limit on online browsing, adding vector maps support with some precompiled maps linked from his web and by starting the process to build his own tile server [3]. Isn't this enough to ublock the app? I use Locus for mapping because I don't know any other as powerful Android application. For normal map browsing I use offline tiles downloaded from my own tile server and sometimes the vector map (outdated copy though). But when I go for a mapping trip I need to see as recent data as possible on the highest zoom available to decide e.g. which of the tracks there is not yet mapped, whether a particular POI is already mapped, etc. You get my point... Is there anything that can be done to unblock fixed applications? And if there is no will to change the situation, can you recommend me another Android app for displaying OSM tiles and track recording? Thanks. Vaclav [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Blocked_applications [2] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Locus [3] http://forum.asamm.cz/viewtopic.php?f=10&t=1166#p6870 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
