Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclelane on left/right
Morten Kjeldgaard wrote: > I know Jonas has some examples on how nice it looks when you use the > cycleway=track on an osmarendered map (mapnik doesn't use the tag). Perhaps > you can post those as an illustration, Jonas? For example here: http://osm.org/go/0H8UF1OW?layers=0B00FTF I do somewhat understand the idea that you want to map everything completely accurately, and hence want to map the cycleway as a separete way, but the resulting is appalling at anything but z18 or above. Not to mention the routing problems. Ie. on this map: http://osm.org/go/0h8u...@b-?layers=0b00ftf you can easily go from the cycleway on the right to any of the evenly numbered houses on the left, but routing would lead you to the nearest intersection to do a 3-point-turn and wait for up to 3 red lights in the same intersection. -- Jonas Häggqvist rasher(at)rasher(dot)dk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclelane on left/right
tisdagen den 18 augusti 2009 13.45.24 skrev talk-requ...@openstreetmap.org: > Are there any progress on the left/right situation on > cycleway=lane/track that are only on one side of the street? > >>> > >>> yes, there is a solution for cycleway=track. Map it separately and tag > >>> highway=cycleway. track can be considered "deprecated" ;-) > >> > >> But don't forget to connect the cycleway to the road wherever it is > >> possible to change from one to the other. > > > > Which it is at literally every single point in space along most Danish > > cycleways. This seems like a poor plan. > > It is indeed a very poor plan. Almost all major streets in danish cities > have biketracks in each side of the street. In profile, the construction > looks like this: > > sidewalk > - >\bikepath > - > |heavy traffic. >--- By using the proposed segmented_tag relation [1] (I'd prefer it to be just called segmented) you could use cycleway:left and cycleway:right on the segment since the relation doesn't rotate if the way is rotated. [1] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Relations/Proposed/Segmented_Tag I also have an idea of having use for cycleway=track. A cycleway=lane is a lane - the bicycle area is separated from heavy traffic only by a painted line. A cycleway=track is still on the same carriageway, but separated from the heavy traffic by curbstones, height difference, or a small fence etc. (The Danish example would be a cycleway=track if I understand it.) And finally, on a highway=cycleway the carriageway for bicycles and heavy traffic is separated. Konrad ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclelane on left/right
Jonas Häggqvist wrote: > Norbert Hoffmann wrote: >> Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: >> >>> 2009/8/14 Konrad Skeri : Are there any progress on the left/right situation on cycleway=lane/track that are only on one side of the street? >>> yes, there is a solution for cycleway=track. Map it separately and tag >>> highway=cycleway. track can be considered "deprecated" ;-) >> But don't forget to connect the cycleway to the road wherever it is >> possible to change from one to the other. > > Which it is at literally every single point in space along most Danish > cycleways. This seems like a poor plan. It is indeed a very poor plan. Almost all major streets in danish cities have biketracks in each side of the street. In profile, the construction looks like this: sidewalk - \bikepath - |heavy traffic. --- When mapping a crossing of two such streets, you need to make the following construction: .|. .|. .|. .o|o .|. --o- .|. .o|o .|. .|. .|. That's five nodes for a single intersection! You can imagine how many bugs there are in the maps where mappers have not had the patience to do so! Mostly, mappers have just "forgotten" the connecting nodes, which doesn't matter much for map-drawing, but screws routing up badly. It means that the map in danish cities has gazillions of "intersecting ways" validation errors. Another thing is that you need to place the parallel cycleway about 20 meters from the highway to have it rendered on the map. And mappers have a hard time constructing a parallel cycleway, they often zigzag along the main road and it looks terrible. I know Jonas has some examples on how nice it looks when you use the cycleway=track on an osmarendered map (mapnik doesn't use the tag). Perhaps you can post those as an illustration, Jonas? PS: In fact there's a similar problem with sidewalks. There ought to be a "city_street" highway type with sidewalks. Cheers, Morten ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclelane on left/right
On Aug 15, 2009, at 5:14 PM, Lennard wrote: > Richard Mann wrote: > >> The rendering can apparently be done using Mapnik's >> LinePatternSymbolizer (which does at least now have some >> documentation >> on the Mapnik site), but knowing that much and achieving the result >> are >> two different things. I'm hoping it's months rather than years. > > Very good progress has been made recently on offset rendering for the > LineSymbolizer. I'm indeed hoping we can use this something this year. > > http://trac.mapnik.org/ticket/180 Yes, thanks Lenndard. Anyone interested in line offsets, please post your ideas to that ticket. I'm going to be working on the patch one last time next week. Dane ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclelane on left/right
Richard Mann wrote: > The rendering can apparently be done using Mapnik's > LinePatternSymbolizer (which does at least now have some documentation > on the Mapnik site), but knowing that much and achieving the result are > two different things. I'm hoping it's months rather than years. Very good progress has been made recently on offset rendering for the LineSymbolizer. I'm indeed hoping we can use this something this year. http://trac.mapnik.org/ticket/180 -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclelane on left/right
We in Oxford still hope to get to rendering cycle lanes and tracks on one side of the road only. Ideally in such a way that we can use the likes of cycleway:left=track rather than marking separate cycle tracks. This is because it will give the renderer much more control over the output. The rendering can apparently be done using Mapnik's LinePatternSymbolizer (which does at least now have some documentation on the Mapnik site), but knowing that much and achieving the result are two different things. I'm hoping it's months rather than years. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclelane on left/right
Jonas Häggqvist wrote: >Which it is at literally every single point in space along most Danish >cycleways. This seems like a poor plan. But else the mapping would mean: "there is no connection". This is why I think, creating a new way for the cycleway is often a poor plan. Norbert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclelane on left/right
2009/8/15 Jonas Häggqvist : > Norbert Hoffmann wrote: >> Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: >> >>> 2009/8/14 Konrad Skeri : Are there any progress on the left/right situation on cycleway=lane/track that are only on one side of the street? >>> yes, there is a solution for cycleway=track. Map it separately and tag >>> highway=cycleway. track can be considered "deprecated" ;-) >> >> But don't forget to connect the cycleway to the road wherever it is >> possible to change from one to the other. > > Which it is at literally every single point in space along most Danish > cycleways. This seems like a poor plan. Are you referring to cycleway=lane or track? In the lane case I agree that it is generally more suitable to map it as tag. In the track-case you will ususally have some obstacles (e.g. kerb, green). I agree that there is a lack in our datamodell of not beeing able to express that two ways are connected not only on a node but on a line. This is valid e.g. for motorway-junctions as well: they go parallel for some hundred metres and we have to reduce this to a single node. I hope that we'll find some way, to "combine" lanes with a relation. This would be the starting point of beeing able to map all lanes separately and then combine them into a single street-object. This regards also pavements along roads and lanes at junctions. Anyway: IMHO it is the better compromise to map the cycleway in the track-case separately and connect it from time to time, especially on all junctions, to the road. Otherwise you are not able to express physical attributes like surface, width, material, restrictions (access and maxspeed) and other to the cycleway. Cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclelane on left/right
Norbert Hoffmann wrote: > Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > >> 2009/8/14 Konrad Skeri : >>> Are there any progress on the left/right situation on cycleway=lane/track >>> that >>> are only on one side of the street? >> yes, there is a solution for cycleway=track. Map it separately and tag >> highway=cycleway. track can be considered "deprecated" ;-) > > But don't forget to connect the cycleway to the road wherever it is > possible to change from one to the other. Which it is at literally every single point in space along most Danish cycleways. This seems like a poor plan. -- Jonas Häggqvist rasher(at)rasher(dot)dk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclelane on left/right
Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: >2009/8/14 Konrad Skeri : >> Are there any progress on the left/right situation on cycleway=lane/track >> that >> are only on one side of the street? > >yes, there is a solution for cycleway=track. Map it separately and tag >highway=cycleway. track can be considered "deprecated" ;-) But don't forget to connect the cycleway to the road wherever it is possible to change from one to the other. Norbert ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Cyclelane on left/right
2009/8/14 Konrad Skeri : > Are there any progress on the left/right situation on cycleway=lane/track that > are only on one side of the street? yes, there is a solution for cycleway=track. Map it separately and tag highway=cycleway. track can be considered "deprecated" ;-) cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
[OSM-talk] Cyclelane on left/right
Are there any progress on the left/right situation on cycleway=lane/track that are only on one side of the street? I've seen the proposal of e.g. cycleway:left, but as far as I know it's only a proposal and I can see the problem of using such sub-keys. Is there a system that is rendered? Konrad ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
