Re: [OSM-talk] Error on boundaries + issues with Abkhazia/South Ossetia/disputed territories
Sorry to bring back this old topic... On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 12:56, Lennard l...@xs4all.nl wrote: On 24-9-2010 11:38, Tiziano D'Angelo wrote: - The administrative boundary between some regions and autonomous republics of North Caucasus was marked as country border [3] while it should be merely an administrative one Not wanting to get into border disputes, but admin_level=2 _is_ the national level, and 3 is subnational. Found out that...the North Caucasus Republics borders within Russian Federation are correctly tagged with admin level=3 as they are a subnational entity (Federal District). But IMHO Mapnik shows them similarly to country borders, this could lead to misunderstandings if one doesn't look at the actual data...problem of the renderer??? On Fri, Sep 24, 2010 at 11:56, Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.com wrote: The question was discussed on the Russian osm-forum, we decided to leave the borders as they are now, not to start a war of edits with Georgian osmers, as Georgia does not recognize Abkhazia or South Osetia as independet countries. I think it would be wise to leave it as it is now not to create conflicts. Kirill 2010/9/24 Tiziano D'Angelo tiziano.dang...@gmail.com: - Depending on the points of view, the border Georgia / Abkhazia [4] now marked as an administrative can be marked as country border. For example, Kosovo is marked likewise (with a country border), although not recognized internationally by the majority of countries (36% of the total recognize it) and it isn't even listed on ISO-3166-1 / UN [5], as well as Abkhazia (4 UN member states recognize it). From a de facto point of view (and for some countries de jure) Abkhazia is a fully independent state from Georgia (I noticed it personally while there) and as far as the Georgians say, it is no longer under Georgia's influence or control and it will be like that also in the future. What would you say to a cartographic point of view? from a tourist point of view, for example, it is a separate entity from Georgia (you pass a border control, there is a visa...), so a tourist-oriented map would logically draw it as a separate country. Generally speaking about any kind of disputed terriories, is there any way to keep both POV tagging boundaries as Disputed / Recognized by Some states/something else? Then, if we want to develop OSM in this country, it goes without saying that if locals will see the boundaries as they are now (as part of Georgia region, unrealistic and not corresponding to reality), they will never agree to use OSM! ... while it would be reasonable to use OSM extensively, since for example Google has no map of Abkhazia, and instead there's something already on OSM. - what is the standard for naming of places? What has to be put in name, in int_name tags? Which is the scale of priority? local language I suppose... so capital of Abkhazia, Sukhum, should be tagged as name=Аҟəа (local abkhazian name) name:ru=Сухум name:ka= სოხუმი , int_name=Sukhum; Sukhumi ; etc... Is there a way to simultaneously display multiple names (like Google Maps showing the name in Cyrillic and transliterated Russian or English version)? About Abkhazia, after Kosovo, I discovered North Cyprus border (de facto) is tagged as admin_level=2, even though it is recognized by only one country in the world, as for the draft proposal that I saw in this page: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Tag:boundary%3Dadministrative#10_admin_level_values_for_specific_countries So the same tagging scheme could apply to Abkhazia as well, I guess. Or as the iure status under Georgia would be autonomous republic, then level=3 Sorry to bring up again the issue, but my opinion is that all countries/territories in the same de facto situation shall be tagged likewise, so either admin_level = 2 for all or =4, or as compromise use admin_level=3 in these situations. I'm happy to see that the proposal for North Cyprus has been adopted. Moreover, here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Cyprus / http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Disputes#On_the_Ground_Rule I found more evidence that the scheme of naming should be the same as the mentioned cases, so Abkhazian name in the name tag (cause it is definitely the on ground version, and even official language for Georgia too in that de iure autonomous republic) + all the other languages naming with their respective tags. In this case Abkhazian is written in cyrillic, so the international better-known name is put into brackets next to the Abkhazian name for easier understanding by non-Abkhazians. In fact, this exact scheme has been applied by fellow mapper Ulrich Ludat in his edits this last month in Abkhazia. Ulrich really made a great job improving greatly Abkhazia map situation, maybe the issues weren't properly raised before because of the very little mapping activity in that place??? thanks for the attention Tiziano ___ talk
[OSM-talk] Error on boundaries + issues with Abkhazia/South Ossetia/disputed territories
Hello everyone, I am new on this list, but active on talk-it since some time, so forgive me if this has been already discussed here... I've been looking at the Caucasus region in where I was recently and [1] I noticed some anomalies: - Azerbaijan border with Georgia, but it is not marked as country but region boundary [2] with tag: *admin_level:* 2 *border_type:* nation *boundary:*administrative *left: country:* GE *name:* International Border - Georgia - Azerbaijan *right: country:* AZ . Is it some error? - The administrative boundary between some regions and autonomous republics of North Caucasus was marked as country border [3] while it should be merely an administrative one - Depending on the points of view, the border Georgia / Abkhazia [4] now marked as an administrative can be marked as country border. For example, Kosovo is marked likewise (with a country border), although not recognized internationally by the majority of countries (36% of the total recognize it) and it isn't even listed on ISO-3166-1 / UN [5], as well as Abkhazia (4 UN member states recognize it). From a de facto point of view (and for some countries de jure) Abkhazia is a fully independent state from Georgia (I noticed it personally while there) and as far as the Georgians say, it is no longer under Georgia's influence or control and it will be like that also in the future. What would you say to a cartographic point of view? from a tourist point of view, for example, it is a separate entity from Georgia (you pass a border control, there is a visa...), so a tourist-oriented map would logically draw it as a separate country. Generally speaking about any kind of disputed terriories, is there any way to keep both POV tagging boundaries as Disputed / Recognized by Some states/something else? Then, if we want to develop OSM in this country, it goes without saying that if locals will see the boundaries as they are now (as part of Georgia region, unrealistic and not corresponding to reality), they will never agree to use OSM! ... while it would be reasonable to use OSM extensively, since for example Google has no map of Abkhazia, and instead there's something already on OSM. - what is the standard for naming of places? What has to be put in name, in int_name tags? Which is the scale of priority? local language I suppose... so capital of Abkhazia, Sukhum, should be tagged as name=Аҟəа (local abkhazian name) name:ru=Сухум name:ka= სოხუმი , int_name=Sukhum; Sukhumi ; etc... Is there a way to simultaneously display multiple names (like Google Maps showing the name in Cyrillic and transliterated Russian or English version)? Thanks Cheers Tiziano [1] http://osm.org/go/zVFKP-- [2] http://osm.org/go/zUWINC-- [3] http://osm.org/go/zVSvI [4] http://osm.org/go/x...@mcdp- [5] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_Nations_Political_Boundaries ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Error on boundaries + issues with Abkhazia/South Ossetia/disputed territories
The question was discussed on the Russian osm-forum, we decided to leave the borders as they are now, not to start a war of edits with Georgian osmers, as Georgia does not recognize Abkhazia or South Osetia as independet countries. I think it would be wise to leave it as it is now not to create conflicts. Kirill 2010/9/24 Tiziano D'Angelo tiziano.dang...@gmail.com: Hello everyone, I am new on this list, but active on talk-it since some time, so forgive me if this has been already discussed here... I've been looking at the Caucasus region in where I was recently and [1] I noticed some anomalies: - Azerbaijan border with Georgia, but it is not marked as country but region boundary [2] with tag: admin_level: 2 border_type: nation boundary: administrative left: country: GE name: International Border - Georgia - Azerbaijan right: country: AZ . Is it some error? - The administrative boundary between some regions and autonomous republics of North Caucasus was marked as country border [3] while it should be merely an administrative one - Depending on the points of view, the border Georgia / Abkhazia [4] now marked as an administrative can be marked as country border. For example, Kosovo is marked likewise (with a country border), although not recognized internationally by the majority of countries (36% of the total recognize it) and it isn't even listed on ISO-3166-1 / UN [5], as well as Abkhazia (4 UN member states recognize it). From a de facto point of view (and for some countries de jure) Abkhazia is a fully independent state from Georgia (I noticed it personally while there) and as far as the Georgians say, it is no longer under Georgia's influence or control and it will be like that also in the future. What would you say to a cartographic point of view? from a tourist point of view, for example, it is a separate entity from Georgia (you pass a border control, there is a visa...), so a tourist-oriented map would logically draw it as a separate country. Generally speaking about any kind of disputed terriories, is there any way to keep both POV tagging boundaries as Disputed / Recognized by Some states/something else? Then, if we want to develop OSM in this country, it goes without saying that if locals will see the boundaries as they are now (as part of Georgia region, unrealistic and not corresponding to reality), they will never agree to use OSM! ... while it would be reasonable to use OSM extensively, since for example Google has no map of Abkhazia, and instead there's something already on OSM. - what is the standard for naming of places? What has to be put in name, in int_name tags? Which is the scale of priority? local language I suppose... so capital of Abkhazia, Sukhum, should be tagged as name=Аҟəа (local abkhazian name) name:ru=Сухум name:ka= სოხუმი , int_name=Sukhum; Sukhumi ; etc... Is there a way to simultaneously display multiple names (like Google Maps showing the name in Cyrillic and transliterated Russian or English version)? Thanks Cheers Tiziano [1] http://osm.org/go/zVFKP-- [2] http://osm.org/go/zUWINC-- [3] http://osm.org/go/zVSvI [4] http://osm.org/go/x...@mcdp- [5] http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/WikiProject_United_Nations_Political_Boundaries ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Error on boundaries + issues with Abkhazia/South Ossetia/disputed territories
On Fri, 24 Sep 2010 13:56:24 +0400 Kirill Bestoujev bestou...@gmail.com wrote: The question was discussed on the Russian osm-forum, we decided to leave the borders as they are now, not to start a war of edits with Georgian osmers, as Georgia does not recognize Abkhazia or South Osetia as independet countries. I think it would be wise to leave it as it is now not to create conflicts. Kirill As an observer of the Kosovo situation Initially Kosovo was marked as a separate territory, included within Serbian country border Later the decision was made as the international situation altered to mark the Kosovo / Serbia border as a country border. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Error on boundaries + issues with Abkhazia/South Ossetia/disputed territories
On 24-9-2010 11:38, Tiziano D'Angelo wrote: - Azerbaijan border with Georgia, but it is not marked as country but region boundary [2] with tag: *admin_level:* 2 *border_type:* nation *boundary:* administrative *left: country:* GE *name:* International Border - Georgia - Azerbaijan *right: country:* AZ . Is it some error? - The administrative boundary between some regions and autonomous republics of North Caucasus was marked as country border [3] while it should be merely an administrative one Not wanting to get into border disputes, but admin_level=2 _is_ the national level, and 3 is subnational. -- Lennard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
