[OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
Hi Two points regarding the recent OSM carto updates: 1. Tertiary roads being rendered white. This, by my count, brings the total rendered that colour to four: Tertiary, Residential, Service & Unclassified. Surely clearly distinguishing between very different classifications using colour make the map easier to comprehend? I'm struggling to understand how this can be considered an improvement. Is their an online explanation giving the reasons? 2. Road widths https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4l8ZKWUAA-566.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4tfRDWUAA6AkN.png As can be seen, there's a problem with the new increased widths. At interchanges individually mapped lanes are overlapping turning it into a blob of colour. Wouldn't it be beneficial if the width was reduced when the one-way tag is present? Cheers Dave F. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
On Tue Nov 3 12:17:21 2015 GMT, Dave F. wrote > > 2. Road widths > https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4l8ZKWUAA-566.jpg > https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4tfRDWUAA6AkN.png > > As can be seen, there's a problem with the new increased widths. At > interchanges individually mapped lanes are overlapping turning it into a > blob of colour. Wouldn't it be beneficial if the width was reduced when > the one-way tag is present? > I am seeing issues with the wider roads obstructing hedgerows and clipping buildings at higher zooms as they are now wider than the physical space on the ground. Comparing the old style to new, where rendering is not yet complete, they seem to be over 30% wider at zoom 19. Would it be possible to tweak them back to the point where they are closer to the previous width, and fit within a not uncommon 4m width. Other than this small issue, I do like the new style. Phil (trigpoint) -- Sent from my Jolla ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
On Tuesday 03 November 2015, Dave F. wrote: > > 1. Tertiary roads being rendered white. This, by my count, brings the > total rendered that colour to four: Tertiary, Residential, Service & > Unclassified. Surely clearly distinguishing between very different > classifications using colour make the map easier to comprehend? I'm > struggling to understand how this can be considered an improvement. > Is their an online explanation giving the reasons? Most of the discussion on the road styling changes can be found on: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/102 https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1736 http://www.openstreetmap.org/user/Mateusz%20Konieczny/diary This is a lot of material to review but it is highly recommended to work through that before you make specific suggestions for changes because otherwise you are very likely to frustrate those who participated in those previous discussions by bringing ideas and arguments that have been covered in depth previously. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
Þann 03.11.2015 12:46, Christoph Hormann reit: This is a lot of material to review but it is highly recommended to work through that before you make specific suggestions for changes because otherwise you are very likely to frustrate those who participated in those previous discussions by bringing ideas and arguments that have been covered in depth previously. As an active participant in the discussion (mostly advocating for tertiary to be colored) I have to say that "in depth" doesn't really describe how the decision was taken regarding tertiary color. The answer to that was basically "just because". Some of these changes were purely arbitrary, not based on a deep scientific study, data crunching or otherwise scientific methods. Arbitrary changes really need to prove themselves, and so far this one at least hasn't (expanding width and decoloring tertiary). --Jói / Stalfur ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
On Tuesday 03 November 2015, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote: > > As an active participant in the discussion (mostly advocating for > tertiary to be colored) I have to say that "in depth" doesn't really > describe how the decision was taken regarding tertiary color. The > answer to that was basically "just because". That is not correct, Mateusz put quite some time into trying different alternatives for tertiary roads and there was plenty of opportunity for all interested parties to participate in discussion with suggestions and arguments. You might disagree with the outcome but in this particular point you can hardly say it was not covered in depth. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
Þann 03.11.2015 14:08, Christoph Hormann reit: On Tuesday 03 November 2015, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote: As an active participant in the discussion (mostly advocating for tertiary to be colored) I have to say that "in depth" doesn't really describe how the decision was taken regarding tertiary color. The answer to that was basically "just because". That is not correct, Mateusz put quite some time into trying different alternatives for tertiary roads and there was plenty of opportunity for all interested parties to participate in discussion with suggestions and arguments. You might disagree with the outcome but in this particular point you can hardly say it was not covered in depth. Several alternatives were proposed. They were disregarded without an exact reason other than "doesn't work for me". --Jóhannes ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
On Tuesday 03 November 2015, Jóhannes Birgir Jensson wrote: > > > > That is not correct, Mateusz put quite some time into trying > > different alternatives for tertiary roads and there was plenty of > > opportunity for all interested parties to participate in discussion > > with suggestions and arguments. You might disagree with the > > outcome but in this particular point you can hardly say it was not > > covered in depth. > > Several alternatives were proposed. They were disregarded without an > exact reason other than "doesn't work for me". > Also not correct, various alternatives were tested, samples were shown, areas where problems occur were mentioned, advantages and disadvantages of various options mentioned, you can hardly cover this more in depth than this. Note ultimately design decisions are always subjective. If at the end of a long process a decision is made without once more listing in depth all arguments for and against it this does not mean the decision is arbitrary. -- Christoph Hormann http://www.imagico.de/ ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
On 03/11/15 14:39, Christoph Hormann wrote: > Note ultimately design decisions are always subjective. If at the end > of a long process a decision is made without once more listing in depth > all arguments for and against it this does not mean the decision is > arbitrary. A 'long process' carried out in a small area of discussion is proving problematic for the wider user base. This is one area that once exposed *IS* proving to be the wrong subjective decision followed closely by the changes to road width. The world is a large area with a large range of data spread, so trials may well have missed numerous examples of where something that looks good for a few limited examples fails in the wider coverage. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 3:39 PM, Christoph Hormann wrote: > Also not correct, various alternatives were tested, samples were shown, > areas where problems occur were mentioned, advantages and disadvantages > of various options mentioned, you can hardly cover this more in depth > than this. > > Note ultimately design decisions are always subjective. If at the end > of a long process a decision is made without once more listing in depth > all arguments for and against it this does not mean the decision is > arbitrary. I didn't express myself since a long time on this list. I just discovered the new style and wanted to undestand how it was possible to kill the tertiary road type in OSM. Because it must be clear : if a road class is not rendered, it will be ignored by most of the contributors in the future. That's it. And after reading the thread on github, I'm surprised to see how easy the warnings have been ignored. Maybe because the style developers underestimated its importance (only 4 millions ways) ? This is not a message to minimize the huge efforts and positive improvements about this change. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
sent from a phone > Am 03.11.2015 um 16:47 schrieb Pieren : > > I didn't express myself since a long time on this list. I just > discovered the new style and wanted to undestand how it was possible > to kill the tertiary road type in OSM. Because it must be clear : if a > road class is not rendered, it will be ignored by most of the > contributors in the future. That's it. tertiaries are still rendered, they just don't have a different colour than other roads (but they are thicker). In German we say: remain on the carpet ;-) cheers Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
W dniu 03.11.2015 13:17, Dave F. napisał(a): 2. Road widths https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4l8ZKWUAA-566.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4tfRDWUAA6AkN.png As can be seen, there's a problem with the new increased widths. At interchanges individually mapped lanes are overlapping turning it into a blob of colour. Wouldn't it be beneficial if the width was reduced when the one-way tag is present? This code change is probably to blame: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1861 Probably this should be reverted or tweaked to be more conservative (it's better if the road is a bit too narrow than a bit too wide). -- "The train is always on time / The trick is to be ready to put your bags down" [A. Cohen] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
Thanks for that. Hmm... Interesting; I notice nearby that motorway & links are now rendered as I suggested: http://bl.ocks.org/tyrasd/raw/6164696/#18.00/1.29498/103.87800 However it doesn't for trunk_link: http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.39961/-2.33758 Maybe it should? (I haven't test the other *_links) Cheers Dave F. On 03/11/2015 17:40, Daniel Koć wrote: W dniu 03.11.2015 13:17, Dave F. napisał(a): 2. Road widths https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4l8ZKWUAA-566.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4tfRDWUAA6AkN.png As can be seen, there's a problem with the new increased widths. At interchanges individually mapped lanes are overlapping turning it into a blob of colour. Wouldn't it be beneficial if the width was reduced when the one-way tag is present? This code change is probably to blame: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1861 Probably this should be reverted or tweaked to be more conservative (it's better if the road is a bit too narrow than a bit too wide). --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
On 2015년 11월 03일 21:17, Dave F. wrote: > > 2. Road widths > https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4l8ZKWUAA-566.jpg > https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4tfRDWUAA6AkN.png > > As can be seen, there's a problem with the new increased widths. At > interchanges individually mapped lanes are overlapping turning it into a > blob of colour. Wouldn't it be beneficial if the width was reduced when > the one-way tag is present? Could the renderer take the number of lanes and/or with information of the road into account? Then we would not have this issue. I am not sure if this has been discussed or proposed before, If not I'll post that suggestion in the github issue tracker. m. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
On 04/11/15 01:06, Dave F. wrote: > > Hmm... Interesting; I notice nearby that motorway & links are now > rendered as I suggested: > > http://bl.ocks.org/tyrasd/raw/6164696/#18.00/1.29498/103.87800 > > However it doesn't for trunk_link: > http://www.openstreetmap.org/#map=18/51.39961/-2.33758 > > Maybe it should? (I haven't test the other *_links) That is a part of the jigsaw of why the rendering around here is looking 'messy'. The motorways are at least rendering with a central reservation, while the primary routes are loosing that boundary. On smaller devices the problem is worse than on high resolution devices. -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
Am 04.11.2015 um 06:06 schrieb Max: > Could the renderer take the number of lanes and/or with information of > the road into account? Then we would not have this issue. > The rendering database currently does not include the lanes value, or put differently any such feature would have to weight for a re-import plus "style" change (there is lots of stuff that is dependent on that, but I'm not sure if a re-import is actually still being discussed). Simon signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > tertiaries are still rendered, they just don't have a different colour than > other roads (but they are thicker). In German we say: remain on the carpet ;-) Well, I would say in English "you play with words". It's not visible as a specific class. And for the minority who will see it's thicker, they will think it's based on a physical attribute (width or lanes), not on its importance. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
On 04/11/15 12:08, Pieren wrote: > On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer > wrote: >> > tertiaries are still rendered, they just don't have a different colour >> > than other roads (but they are thicker). In German we say: remain on the >> > carpet ;-) > Well, I would say in English "you play with words". It's not visible > as a specific class. And for the minority who will see it's thicker, > they will think it's based on a physical attribute (width or lanes), > not on its importance. The simple answer is secondary, tertiary and unclassified roads in many areas of the world have the same importance, so rendering them drastically differently is a mistake! -- Lester Caine - G8HFL - Contact - http://lsces.co.uk/wiki/?page=contact L.S.Caine Electronic Services - http://lsces.co.uk EnquirySolve - http://enquirysolve.com/ Model Engineers Digital Workshop - http://medw.co.uk Rainbow Digital Media - http://rainbowdigitalmedia.co.uk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
+1 this is not the role of the style to re-interpret the classification and get rid of important elements of the classification. I did mention this before the style was completed but badly it was decided to ignore objections on this. Let's not play on words to explain why. Pierre De : Pieren À : talk@openstreetmap.org Envoyé le : Mercredi 4 novembre 2015 13h08 Objet : Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths On Tue, Nov 3, 2015 at 5:58 PM, Martin Koppenhoefer wrote: > tertiaries are still rendered, they just don't have a different colour than > other roads (but they are thicker). In German we say: remain on the carpet ;-) Well, I would say in English "you play with words". It's not visible as a specific class. And for the minority who will see it's thicker, they will think it's based on a physical attribute (width or lanes), not on its importance. Pieren ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
W dniu 03.11.2015 18:40, Daniel Koć napisał(a): W dniu 03.11.2015 13:17, Dave F. napisał(a): 2. Road widths https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4l8ZKWUAA-566.jpg https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CS4tfRDWUAA6AkN.png As can be seen, there's a problem with the new increased widths. At interchanges individually mapped lanes are overlapping turning it into a blob of colour. Wouldn't it be beneficial if the width was reduced when the one-way tag is present? This code change is probably to blame: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1861 Probably this should be reverted or tweaked to be more conservative (it's better if the road is a bit too narrow than a bit too wide). Fast fix (reverting 50% of the latest width increase) has just been merged: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/pull/1972#event-464497448 If you want to test it yourself before it will be deployed on OSM servers, you can try installing development environment: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/blob/master/INSTALL.md https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/657#issuecomment-121279334 -- "Завтра, завтра всё кончится!" [Ф. Достоевский] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
W dniu 04.11.2015 18:36, Lester Caine napisał(a): The simple answer is secondary, tertiary and unclassified roads in many areas of the world have the same importance, so rendering them drastically differently is a mistake! As the problem of rendering tertiary roads seems to be still not resolved properly for significant part of community, there is now a new proposition discussed, which is quite subtle regarding differences you mentioned: https://github.com/gravitystorm/openstreetmap-carto/issues/1974#issuecomment-157090146 -- "Завтра, завтра всё кончится!" [Ф. Достоевский] ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] New OSM Carto: White Roads & Road Widths
On 04/11/2015 17:36, Lester Caine wrote: The simple answer is secondary, tertiary and unclassified roads in many areas of the world have the same importance, so rendering them drastically differently is a mistake! If, as you state, there are no differences in some areas, they shouldn't be tagged differently. Pick one class & map them all as that. These tags are for use where there is a clear distinction. --- This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software. https://www.avast.com/antivirus ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
