[OSM-talk] Own wikipage for every single speed limit??
Hi, noticed that there is https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:maxspeed%3D20&redirect=no and a few more speeds - does it make any sense to have such pages around? Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Own wikipage for every single speed limit??
On 2014-08-28 12:10, Richard Z. wrote:
Hi,
noticed that there is
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:maxspeed%3D20&redirect=no
and a few more speeds - does it make any sense to have such
pages around?
If you take a look at the "what links here" link from the wiki you'll
see what they are used for. In this case almost all pages about Kosmos
rules, but also some other.
The thing is that if you add something as a tag in wikipedia
({{tag|maxspeed|15}}), you'll automatically get a link to a wiki page
for that tag. And since it is pretty senseless to have a seperate page
for every different speed limit, they are redirected to a general page
about the maxspeed tag.
I would leave them in.
Regards,
Maarten
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Re: [OSM-talk] Own wikipage for every single speed limit??
On Do, Aug 28, 2014 at 12:20:56 +0200, Maarten Deen wrote:
> On 2014-08-28 12:10, Richard Z. wrote:
> >Hi,
> >
> >noticed that there is
> >https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:maxspeed%3D20&redirect=no
> >
> >and a few more speeds - does it make any sense to have such
> >pages around?
>
> If you take a look at the "what links here" link from the wiki you'll see
> what they are used for. In this case almost all pages about Kosmos rules,
> but also some other.
> The thing is that if you add something as a tag in wikipedia
> ({{tag|maxspeed|15}}), you'll automatically get a link to a wiki page for
> that tag. And since it is pretty senseless to have a seperate page for every
> different speed limit, they are redirected to a general page about the
> maxspeed tag.
Then that template should be changed to optional allow linking to a different
page or so. Dumping more and more useless pages into the already messy wiki
isn't improving the situation. And even if they are only redirects, they will
show up in searches etc.
Jochen
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Re: [OSM-talk] Own wikipage for every single speed limit??
On 2014-08-28 11:20, Maarten Deen wrote:
On 2014-08-28 12:10, Richard Z. wrote:
Hi,
noticed that there is
https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:maxspeed%3D20&redirect=no
and a few more speeds - does it make any sense to have such
pages around?
If you take a look at the "what links here" link from the wiki you'll
see what they are used for. In this case almost all pages about Kosmos
rules, but also some other.
The thing is that if you add something as a tag in wikipedia
({{tag|maxspeed|15}}), you'll automatically get a link to a wiki page
for that tag. And since it is pretty senseless to have a seperate page
for every different speed limit, they are redirected to a general page
about the maxspeed tag.
I would leave them in.
For the wiki, you should use the tag template like {{tag|maxspeed||20}}
ie 2 | vertical bars after the key. Then it doesn't create a link to the
value.
But there's nothing wrong with redirect pages on the wiki anyway. It
helps people find the correct page, and avoids creating duplicates.
Craig
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Re: [OSM-talk] Own wikipage for every single speed limit??
2014-08-28 12:10 GMT+02:00 Richard Z. : > Hi, > > noticed that there is > > https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:maxspeed%3D20&redirect=no > > and a few more speeds - does it make any sense to have such > pages around? > > Richard > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > Redirects are cheap, I see no problem here. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Own wikipage for every single speed limit??
On Do, Aug 28, 2014 at 11:35:59 +0100, Craig Wallace wrote:
> On 2014-08-28 11:20, Maarten Deen wrote:
> >On 2014-08-28 12:10, Richard Z. wrote:
> >>Hi,
> >>
> >>noticed that there is
> >>
> >>https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:maxspeed%3D20&redirect=no
> >>
> >>and a few more speeds - does it make any sense to have such
> >>pages around?
> >
> >If you take a look at the "what links here" link from the wiki you'll
> >see what they are used for. In this case almost all pages about Kosmos
> >rules, but also some other.
> >The thing is that if you add something as a tag in wikipedia
> >({{tag|maxspeed|15}}), you'll automatically get a link to a wiki page
> >for that tag. And since it is pretty senseless to have a seperate page
> >for every different speed limit, they are redirected to a general page
> >about the maxspeed tag.
> >
> >I would leave them in.
>
> For the wiki, you should use the tag template like {{tag|maxspeed||20}}
> ie 2 | vertical bars after the key. Then it doesn't create a link to the
> value.
>
> But there's nothing wrong with redirect pages on the wiki anyway. It helps
> people find the correct page, and avoids creating duplicates.
Redirect pages can have a bad effect, though. Taginfo will show if a wiki page
exists for a key or tag. Taginfo can't know why there is a redirect. Is this a
case where the redirect directs from a "typo page" to the "real page" or is
this a case where, like in the maxspeed case, several pages for totally
good tags have been rolled into one. So taginfo shows them all the same and
might lead people into thinking the "typo key" is the real one, if they don't
click through to the page.
The problem behind this is that there is no way to mark the reason why there is
a redirect. It could be "old now discontinued name", or "common misspelling",
or "this page would be basically a copy of this other one, so look there", or
probably some other reasons. Redirects hide this information, that could be
written down on the page instead. So I think redirects should be avoided. In
particular, misspellings would be better handled by having a slightly fuzzy
search (not sure how good MediaWiki is for that).
Jochen
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Re: [OSM-talk] Own wikipage for every single speed limit??
The problem behind this is that there is no way to mark the reason why there is a redirect. Well, there is a little trick ;) http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:amenity%3Dalm&action=edit http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=alm#wiki __ openstreetmap.org/user/AndiG88 wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/User:AndiG88 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Own wikipage for every single speed limit??
Am 28.08.2014 15:07, schrieb Andreas Goss:>> The problem behind this is that there is no way to mark the reason why >> there is >> a redirect. > > Well, there is a little trick ;) > > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/w/index.php?title=Tag:amenity%3Dalm&action=edit > > > http://taginfo.openstreetmap.org/tags/amenity=alm#wiki This does not work for example for all uuid:* pages which are redirects to the proposal page and have 0 uses. See https://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Proposed_Features/UUID#UUID_Tagging Could some wiki admin please delete these pages and fix the links. Thanks Cheers colliar signature.asc Description: OpenPGP digital signature ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Own wikipage for every single speed limit??
On 2014-08-28 04:37, Jochen Topf wrote:
Redirect pages can have a bad effect, though. Taginfo will show if a wiki page
exists for a key or tag. Taginfo can't know why there is a redirect. Is this a
case where the redirect directs from a "typo page" to the "real page" or is
this a case where, like in the maxspeed case, several pages for totally
good tags have been rolled into one. So taginfo shows them all the same and
might lead people into thinking the "typo key" is the real one, if they don't
click through to the page.
The problem behind this is that there is no way to mark the reason why there is
a redirect. It could be "old now discontinued name", or "common misspelling",
or "this page would be basically a copy of this other one, so look there", or
probably some other reasons. Redirects hide this information, that could be
written down on the page instead. So I think redirects should be avoided. In
particular, misspellings would be better handled by having a slightly fuzzy
search (not sure how good MediaWiki is for that).
At Wikipedia, templates are categorized using a series of templates like
{{R from misspelling}}. You just place them on the line following the
#redirect tag. Could taginfo be made to look for these templates or the
categories they sort into?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:R_from_misspelling
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Re: [OSM-talk] Own wikipage for every single speed limit??
On Fr, Sep 05, 2014 at 12:51:40 -0700, Minh Nguyen wrote:
> On 2014-08-28 04:37, Jochen Topf wrote:
> >Redirect pages can have a bad effect, though. Taginfo will show if a wiki
> >page
> >exists for a key or tag. Taginfo can't know why there is a redirect. Is this
> >a
> >case where the redirect directs from a "typo page" to the "real page" or is
> >this a case where, like in the maxspeed case, several pages for totally
> >good tags have been rolled into one. So taginfo shows them all the same and
> >might lead people into thinking the "typo key" is the real one, if they don't
> >click through to the page.
> >
> >The problem behind this is that there is no way to mark the reason why there
> >is
> >a redirect. It could be "old now discontinued name", or "common misspelling",
> >or "this page would be basically a copy of this other one, so look there", or
> >probably some other reasons. Redirects hide this information, that could be
> >written down on the page instead. So I think redirects should be avoided. In
> >particular, misspellings would be better handled by having a slightly fuzzy
> >search (not sure how good MediaWiki is for that).
>
> At Wikipedia, templates are categorized using a series of templates like {{R
> from misspelling}}. You just place them on the line following the #redirect
> tag. Could taginfo be made to look for these templates or the categories
> they sort into?
>
> [1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:R_from_misspelling
It could. But humans will not see anything in those redirect pages without
jumping through hoops, so I think this makes a bad situation even worse.
Jochen
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Re: [OSM-talk] Own wikipage for every single speed limit??
On 05.09.2014 21:51, Minh Nguyen wrote:
> At Wikipedia, templates are categorized using a series of templates like
> {{R from misspelling}}. You just place them on the line following the
> #redirect tag. Could taginfo be made to look for these templates or the
> categories they sort into?
In the German Wikipedia, only very common misspellings get pages at all,
and instead of using redirects, these display a template and force the
user to manually click on the correct term, apparently in an attempt to
educate the user. See this for example:
http://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bertold_Brecht
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Re: [OSM-talk] Own wikipage for every single speed limit??
On 2014-09-05 13:22, Jochen Topf wrote:
On Fr, Sep 05, 2014 at 12:51:40 -0700, Minh Nguyen wrote:
On 2014-08-28 04:37, Jochen Topf wrote:
Redirect pages can have a bad effect, though. Taginfo will show if a wiki page
exists for a key or tag. Taginfo can't know why there is a redirect. Is this a
case where the redirect directs from a "typo page" to the "real page" or is
this a case where, like in the maxspeed case, several pages for totally
good tags have been rolled into one. So taginfo shows them all the same and
might lead people into thinking the "typo key" is the real one, if they don't
click through to the page.
The problem behind this is that there is no way to mark the reason why there is
a redirect. It could be "old now discontinued name", or "common misspelling",
or "this page would be basically a copy of this other one, so look there", or
probably some other reasons. Redirects hide this information, that could be
written down on the page instead. So I think redirects should be avoided. In
particular, misspellings would be better handled by having a slightly fuzzy
search (not sure how good MediaWiki is for that).
At Wikipedia, templates are categorized using a series of templates like {{R
from misspelling}}. You just place them on the line following the #redirect
tag. Could taginfo be made to look for these templates or the categories
they sort into?
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Template:R_from_misspelling
It could. But humans will not see anything in those redirect pages without
jumping through hoops, so I think this makes a bad situation even worse.
Redirect templates do add a human-readable message to the page:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antartic_Treaty?redirect=no
However, you do have to click the "Redirected from" link to see that
message [1], and links to the redirect page show up as ordinary blue
links [2]. The latter problem can be addressed by adding this rule to
the wiki's MediaWiki:Common.css:
.mw-redirect {
background-color: #ddeeff;
}
To be clear, I'm not speaking out in favor of redirects for numeric tags
like maxspeed=20. {{tag|maxspeed||20}} is definitely the right way to
link to that tag. Rather, I see redirects as being useful for obsolete,
haven't-tagged-this-way-since-2004 tags, or for American English tags
where the British equivalent is preferred (e.g., amenity=theater).
Perhaps the obsolete and dialectal tags merit their own "soft redirect"
pages, in MediaWiki parlance, but a hard redirect is better than nothing.
[1] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/2012
[2] https://bugzilla.wikimedia.org/42880
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Re: [OSM-talk] Own wikipage for every single speed limit??
On Thu, Aug 28, 2014 at 01:37:33PM +0200, Jochen Topf wrote: > Redirect pages can have a bad effect, though. Taginfo will show if a wiki page > exists for a key or tag. Taginfo can't know why there is a redirect. Is this a > case where the redirect directs from a "typo page" to the "real page" or is > this a case where, like in the maxspeed case, several pages for totally > good tags have been rolled into one. So taginfo shows them all the same and > might lead people into thinking the "typo key" is the real one, if they don't > click through to the page. > > The problem behind this is that there is no way to mark the reason why there > is > a redirect. It could be "old now discontinued name", or "common misspelling", > or "this page would be basically a copy of this other one, so look there", or > probably some other reasons. Redirects hide this information, that could be > written down on the page instead. So I think redirects should be avoided. In > particular, misspellings would be better handled by having a slightly fuzzy > search (not sure how good MediaWiki is for that). in the case of obsolete pages I found a way to workaround the problem, place an "obsolete, use XXX instead" into the tag description - which is then nicely displayed by taginfo in the listing of values. However that only works for tag descriptions that were valid at some point in time and can't be used for typo or other kinds of redirects. Richard ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org https://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
