[OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working group
Hello, looking at the foundation web site and the wiki, there is very few information on the local chapter working group - only a draft of the federation agreement is linked withought an information on the version or date it was created! Additionally there are no meeting minutes available at all. (or at least I didn't find iformation and minutes). On the Saturday eving at the SOTM09 there was a meeting relatetd to to local chapters. So please could: A) somebody from the working group give the current status (and maybe add a version information to the draft!) B) somebody joining the SOTM meeting provide information what was discussed and potential results C) somebody from the working group providing information on next steps... Thanks in advance, Michael. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working group
Hi! On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 05:29:23PM +0200, Michael Kugelmann wrote: > looking at the foundation web site and the wiki, there is very few > information on the local chapter working group - only a draft of the > federation agreement is linked withought an information on the version > or date it was created! Additionally there are no meeting minutes > available at all. (or at least I didn't find iformation and minutes). > On the Saturday eving at the SOTM09 there was a meeting relatetd to to > local chapters. > > So please could: > A) somebody from the working group give the current status (and maybe > add a version information to the draft!) > B) somebody joining the SOTM meeting provide information what was > discussed and potential results > C) somebody from the working group providing information on next steps... I am not a member of the working group, but to get the ball rolling again I have brought the wiki page at http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Local_Chapters up to date and added all the stuff that I remember from our meeting at SOTM. I have tried to bring in all the issues that were raised in a form that they can be discussed easily. I think the creation of a legal document as the formal agreement between OSMF and a local chapter is only the second step. The first is that we as a community have to agree roughly on how the relationship between OSMF and the local chapters should be shaped and how they fit into the larger context of the OSM community and the other work of OSMF. Because this is probably an issue of interest to more than current OSM members, I would encourage you to discuss things on the talk list and on the wiki. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working group
Ok, taken out the OSM-F list. Thanks for updating the wiki - I'm going to take a look over it tomorrow and make sure all the info the community needs is on there. From there I will propose a set of steps towards getting Local Chapters set up, along with any remaining questions. The community will be able to comment on the process and see what is going on and what needs to be done to set up local chapters. -- Nick On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Jochen Topf wrote: > Hi! > > Lets use the mailing lists and the wiki. Thats much more inclusive for a > diverse group like this. Especially for this issue where there are people > from many countries in different time zones involved and where many will > not speak English well enough to feel comfortable voicing their opinions > in a phone call. And as a bonus everything is already documented for > eveybody else and we don't need to wait for meeting minutes etc. > > Jochen > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 08:30:06AM +0200, Nick Black wrote: > > Cc: Michael Kugelmann , osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org > , > > OSM talk > > From: Nick Black > > To: Jochen Topf > > Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working > group > > Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 08:30:06 +0200 > > > > Hi Jochen, > > > > Thanks for updating the page. We should try and pick things up again > > regarding Local Chapters, especially after the progress we made at SOTM. > > > > How about we set up a call for late next week or early the week after > > with all of the interested parties? I'm out of the office today, but if > > this sounds good I'll get it set up tomorrow. > > > > (BTW - Agree wrt using OSM-Talk, but I don't have access to my osm-talk > > email account when I'm offline). > > > > -- > > Nick > > > > > > On 9 Aug 2009, at 19:45, Jochen Topf wrote: > > > >> Hi! > >> > >> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 05:29:23PM +0200, Michael Kugelmann wrote: > >>> looking at the foundation web site and the wiki, there is very few > >>> information on the local chapter working group - only a draft of the > >>> federation agreement is linked withought an information on the > >>> version > >>> or date it was created! Additionally there are no meeting minutes > >>> available at all. (or at least I didn't find iformation and minutes). > >>> On the Saturday eving at the SOTM09 there was a meeting relatetd to > >>> to > >>> local chapters. > >>> > >>> So please could: > >>> A) somebody from the working group give the current status (and maybe > >>> add a version information to the draft!) > >>> B) somebody joining the SOTM meeting provide information what was > >>> discussed and potential results > >>> C) somebody from the working group providing information on next > >>> steps... > >> > >> I am not a member of the working group, but to get the ball rolling > >> again > >> I have brought the wiki page at > >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Local_Chapters up to > >> date > >> and added all the stuff that I remember from our meeting at SOTM. > >> > >> I have tried to bring in all the issues that were raised in a form > >> that > >> they can be discussed easily. I think the creation of a legal document > >> as the formal agreement between OSMF and a local chapter is only the > >> second > >> step. The first is that we as a community have to agree roughly on how > >> the relationship between OSMF and the local chapters should be shaped > >> and > >> how they fit into the larger context of the OSM community and the > >> other > >> work of OSMF. > >> > >> Because this is probably an issue of interest to more than current OSM > >> members, I would encourage you to discuss things on the talk list and > >> on > >> the wiki. > >> > >> Jochen > >> -- > >> Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ > >> +49-721-388298 > >> > >> > >> ___ > >> osmf-talk mailing list > >> osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org > >> http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/osmf-talk > > > > -- > > Nick Black > > twitter.com/nick_b > > n...@blacksworld.net > > > > > > > > > > > > -- > Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 > > > ___ > talk mailing list > talk@openstreetmap.org > http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk > -- -- Nick Black twitter.com/nick_b ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working group
Hi Guys, Its time to jump-start the Local Chapters working group. Jochen has kindly revamped the wiki page ( http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Local_Chapters) so if you have interest in a local chapter, please read it and add your details to the relevant section. I'm proposing having an open call on Monday 17th August at 6pm BST at which anyone interested can talk through their comments or concerns, as we did in Amsterdam during SOTM. I know that this is short notice and that 6pm BST doesn't work for a lot of people (eg people in Australia or the Far East). If you would like to attend, but can't because of any reason, please add you name to the relevant section below, along with some contact details and we'll get a time set up for another call in which you can participate. Meeting Objectives * Give potential Local Chapter leaders and other community members the change to discuss the proposed agreement * Clarify some "next steps" for the license process The page with details and sign up is here: http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Local_Chapters/Meetings/August-2009 Hope to talk to many interested Local Chapter people next week. -- Nick On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Nick Black wrote: > > Ok, taken out the OSM-F list. Thanks for updating the wiki - I'm going to take a look over it tomorrow and make sure all the info the community needs is on there. From there I will propose a set of steps towards getting Local Chapters set up, along with any remaining questions. The community will be able to comment on the process and see what is going on and what needs to be done to set up local chapters. > -- > Nick > > > > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Jochen Topf wrote: >> >> Hi! >> >> Lets use the mailing lists and the wiki. Thats much more inclusive for a >> diverse group like this. Especially for this issue where there are people >> from many countries in different time zones involved and where many will >> not speak English well enough to feel comfortable voicing their opinions >> in a phone call. And as a bonus everything is already documented for >> eveybody else and we don't need to wait for meeting minutes etc. >> >> Jochen >> >> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 08:30:06AM +0200, Nick Black wrote: >> > Cc: Michael Kugelmann , osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org, >> > OSM talk >> > From: Nick Black >> > To: Jochen Topf >> > Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working group >> > Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 08:30:06 +0200 >> > >> > Hi Jochen, >> > >> > Thanks for updating the page. We should try and pick things up again >> > regarding Local Chapters, especially after the progress we made at SOTM. >> > >> > How about we set up a call for late next week or early the week after >> > with all of the interested parties? I'm out of the office today, but if >> > this sounds good I'll get it set up tomorrow. >> > >> > (BTW - Agree wrt using OSM-Talk, but I don't have access to my osm-talk >> > email account when I'm offline). >> > >> > -- >> > Nick >> > >> > >> > On 9 Aug 2009, at 19:45, Jochen Topf wrote: >> > >> >> Hi! >> >> >> >> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 05:29:23PM +0200, Michael Kugelmann wrote: >> >>> looking at the foundation web site and the wiki, there is very few >> >>> information on the local chapter working group - only a draft of the >> >>> federation agreement is linked withought an information on the >> >>> version >> >>> or date it was created! Additionally there are no meeting minutes >> >>> available at all. (or at least I didn't find iformation and minutes). >> >>> On the Saturday eving at the SOTM09 there was a meeting relatetd to >> >>> to >> >>> local chapters. >> >>> >> >>> So please could: >> >>> A) somebody from the working group give the current status (and maybe >> >>> add a version information to the draft!) >> >>> B) somebody joining the SOTM meeting provide information what was >> >>> discussed and potential results >> >>> C) somebody from the working group providing information on next >> >>> steps... >> >> >> >> I am not a member of the working group, but to get the ball rolling >> >> again >> >> I have brought the wiki page at >> >> http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Local_Chapters up to
Re: [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working group
On Thu, 13 Aug 2009, Nick Black wrote: > * Give potential Local Chapter leaders and other community members the > change to discuss the proposed agreement My biggest concern now is the mixture of not-for-profit and democratically lead organisation. It is a big concern for me that the actual organisations that actually jumpstarted OpenStreetMap in The Netherlands would not even be able to apply under these rules. While in the past every press anouncement from OpenStreetMap NL was distributed via them. To be concrete; in my Dutch perspective a non-profit organisation is a Foundation. And the Dutch `Foundation' cannot have members, only contributors. For the reason to have an independancy between `the board`, `the money` and `the contributors` voting about money is board only, the board cannot get (significant) money for theirselves the contributors bring in money and/or effort. If the term of a board member is done, the board chooses a new board member. That sounds like a dictatorship, it is. For this legal reason Stichting Vrijschrift or Stichting OpenGeo could never apply. Hence there are no 30 members and even with 30 contributors their is no democratic saying on anything. Since the purpose of a 'foundation' is to have a goal, not people talking if these goals are valid. Therefor if only membership organisations are allowed to be a local chapter this should be point one. Personally I would prefer that the membership would be directly to OSMF and that localstuff is handled by /any/ organisation that has OpenStreetMap or free available geography/data as one of their targets. Stefan (for sake of completeness; treasurer of Stichting OpenGeo and volunteer in Vrijschrift) ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working group
Hi, Stefan de Konink wrote: > For this legal reason Stichting Vrijschrift or Stichting OpenGeo could > never apply. Hence there are no 30 members and even with 30 contributors > their is no democratic saying on anything. I think this only shows that we must not carve any rules in stone - everything that we put up should only be "guidelines" but if in one country it is unusual to have an organisation like that - and those who draw up the guidelines cannot know what is usual in a country - then other solutions must be possible. Bye Frederik -- Frederik Ramm ## eMail frede...@remote.org ## N49°00'09" E008°23'33" ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working group
On Fri, 14 Aug 2009, Nick Black wrote: > I'm proposing having an open call on Monday 17th August at 6pm BST at which > anyone interested can talk through their comments or concerns, as we did in > Amsterdam during SOTM. I know that this is short notice and that 6pm BST > doesn't work for a lot of people (eg people in Australia or the Far East). I can't even decide if I don't know BST so could you tell us in UTC too? ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working group
El Jueves, 13 de Agosto de 2009, Liz escribió: > I can't even decide if I don't know BST > so could you tell us in UTC too? BST = British Summer Time = UTC+1 So, 6 PM BST = 17:00 UTC. -- -- Iván Sánchez Ortega mE ENCANTA CUANDO NO ME DOY CUENTA QUE HE PULSADO CAPS LOCK. ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working group
--- On Thu, 13/8/09, Liz wrote: > I can't even decide if I don't know BST > so could you tell us in UTC too? 3am AEST... ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working group
On 13 Aug 2009, at 22:07, Liz wrote: > On Fri, 14 Aug 2009, Nick Black wrote: >> I'm proposing having an open call on Monday 17th August at 6pm BST >> at which >> anyone interested can talk through their comments or concerns, as >> we did in >> Amsterdam during SOTM. I know that this is short notice and that >> 6pm BST >> doesn't work for a lot of people (eg people in Australia or the Far >> East). > I can't even decide if I don't know BST > so could you tell us in UTC too? For every timezone in the world: http://www.timeanddate.com/worldclock/fixedtime.html?day=17&month=8&year=2009&hour=17&min=0&sec=0&p1=136 Shaun ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working group
Hi! I don't mind if anybody wants to have a phone conversation on things. Just keep in mind that most interested people will not be on that phone call and that all the discussions have to be repeated on this list or on the wiki for the benefit of those of us not on the call. Jochen On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 03:47:44PM +0100, Nick Black wrote: > Date: Thu, 13 Aug 2009 15:47:44 +0100 > Subject: Re: [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working group > From: Nick Black > To: Jochen Topf > Cc: Nick Black , OSM talk , > Michael Kugelmann > > Hi Guys, > Its time to jump-start the Local Chapters working group. Jochen has kindly > revamped the wiki page ( > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Local_Chapters) so if you have > interest in a local chapter, please read it and add your details to the > relevant section. > > I'm proposing having an open call on Monday 17th August at 6pm BST at which > anyone interested can talk through their comments or concerns, as we did in > Amsterdam during SOTM. I know that this is short notice and that 6pm BST > doesn't work for a lot of people (eg people in Australia or the Far East). > If you would like to attend, but can't because of any reason, please add > you name to the relevant section below, along with some contact details and > we'll get a time set up for another call in which you can participate. > > Meeting Objectives > > * Give potential Local Chapter leaders and other community members the > change to discuss the proposed agreement > * Clarify some "next steps" for the license process > > The page with details and sign up is here: > http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/wiki/Foundation/Local_Chapters/Meetings/August-2009 > > Hope to talk to many interested Local Chapter people next week. > > -- > Nick > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 3:56 PM, Nick Black wrote: > > > > Ok, taken out the OSM-F list. Thanks for updating the wiki - I'm going to > take a look over it tomorrow and make sure all the info the community needs > is on there. From there I will propose a set of steps towards getting Local > Chapters set up, along with any remaining questions. The community will be > able to comment on the process and see what is going on and what needs to be > done to set up local chapters. > > -- > > Nick > > > > > > > > > > On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 10:58 AM, Jochen Topf wrote: > >> > >> Hi! > >> > >> Lets use the mailing lists and the wiki. Thats much more inclusive for a > >> diverse group like this. Especially for this issue where there are people > >> from many countries in different time zones involved and where many will > >> not speak English well enough to feel comfortable voicing their opinions > >> in a phone call. And as a bonus everything is already documented for > >> eveybody else and we don't need to wait for meeting minutes etc. > >> > >> Jochen > >> > >> On Wed, Aug 12, 2009 at 08:30:06AM +0200, Nick Black wrote: > >> > Cc: Michael Kugelmann , > osmf-t...@openstreetmap.org, > >> > OSM talk > >> > From: Nick Black > >> > To: Jochen Topf > >> > Subject: Re: [Osmf-talk] [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working > group > >> > Date: Wed, 12 Aug 2009 08:30:06 +0200 > >> > > >> > Hi Jochen, > >> > > >> > Thanks for updating the page. We should try and pick things up again > >> > regarding Local Chapters, especially after the progress we made at > SOTM. > >> > > >> > How about we set up a call for late next week or early the week after > >> > with all of the interested parties? I'm out of the office today, but > if > >> > this sounds good I'll get it set up tomorrow. > >> > > >> > (BTW - Agree wrt using OSM-Talk, but I don't have access to my osm-talk > >> > email account when I'm offline). > >> > > >> > -- > >> > Nick > >> > > >> > > >> > On 9 Aug 2009, at 19:45, Jochen Topf wrote: > >> > > >> >> Hi! > >> >> > >> >> On Thu, Aug 06, 2009 at 05:29:23PM +0200, Michael Kugelmann wrote: > >> >>> looking at the foundation web site and the wiki, there is very few > >> >>> information on the local chapter working group - only a draft of the > >> >>> federation agreement is linked withought an information on the > >> >>> version > >> >>> or
Re: [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working group
On Thu, Aug 13, 2009 at 07:56:11PM +0200, Frederik Ramm wrote: > Stefan de Konink wrote: > > For this legal reason Stichting Vrijschrift or Stichting OpenGeo could > > never apply. Hence there are no 30 members and even with 30 contributors > > their is no democratic saying on anything. > > I think this only shows that we must not carve any rules in stone - > everything that we put up should only be "guidelines" but if in one > country it is unusual to have an organisation like that - and those who > draw up the guidelines cannot know what is usual in a country - then > other solutions must be possible. Well, there might be things we want to "carve in stone". Basically it comes down to: Do we just tell the board of directors of OSMF: Anything goes. You negotiate with other groups, you decide. If you want to awards a candy story in outer Mongolia with the title of local chapter, you probably have your reasons for this, so thats ok. Or do we want to have some sort of minimal rules. We might well decide that a democratic organisation is a must. Which means the Dutch have to come up with a different solution if they want to have a local chapter. (This can be done, Wikimedia has the same rule and there is a Dutch Wikimedia local chapter.) Or we might decide that we are happy with such a Stichting. But thats the necessary process we have to go through. And this comes back to the first question we should have answered and have never really answered, namely what should those chapters be. What should they stand for. If we feel that they are representatives of the OSM community, it might be important for us that they are democratic. If we see them more as just the places where sponsored money can be funnelled through, maybe its not as important. Jochen -- Jochen Topf joc...@remote.org http://www.remote.org/jochen/ +49-721-388298 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working group
--- On Fri, 14/8/09, Jochen Topf wrote: > I don't mind if anybody wants to have a phone conversation > on things. Just keep > in mind that most interested people will not be on that > phone call and that all > the discussions have to be repeated on this list or on the > wiki for the benefit > of those of us not on the call. I'm not sure how the call is taking place, but it could be recorded and uploaded somewhere as an ogg or mp3 ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
Re: [OSM-talk] Status of the Local Chapter working group
2009/8/14 Jochen Topf : > Hi! > > I don't mind if anybody wants to have a phone conversation on things. Just > keep > in mind that most interested people will not be on that phone call and that > all > the discussions have to be repeated on this list or on the wiki for the > benefit > of those of us not on the call. yes. I think to discuss in a written form has a lot of advantage respect to a phone-conference. (searchable, re-readable, not dependant on specific temporal availability of contributors and time-zones, less ad-hoc and therefore (sometimes) more reflected, less band-width-dependant, less dependant on language-skills, ...), so in a global project I'd prefer a written discussion. cheers, Martin ___ talk mailing list talk@openstreetmap.org http://lists.openstreetmap.org/listinfo/talk
